Another EK Elk Hunt Down the Tubes

[Bugle M In]

With the elk...

10 day antlerless..

The big grey cow runs the herd (not the bull like so many state)..
She gets smoked.. rest of the herd does not know they are supposed to migrate uphill in the spring.. so they hang low and cause issues..

If they hang low there are less elk up high (like the past 3 seasons)...

Yup, really good points there.
The group will generally always follow the "lead cow".
Saw one bull taken one year because the lead cow was actually a "park elk" with ear tags and collars etc )with 6-8 other
park elk that were released in the vicinity.
Well, lets just say, park elk don't have issues with humans, and that poor old 6pt didn't have a chance opening day!
Come to think about it, I believe those collared elk didn't last long, between the bow season and cow leh.
(by the 3rd season, all were gone, honestly, who came up with that idea for a study??, you would think they would have collared non park elk, but I suspect the study was to see why the elk have left the park in the 1st place!)

For you newbs who wonder what the hell a lead cow is, she is the one that has her eyes and ears on you, while the rest of the
gang may have their heads down feeding, oblivious to what is going on at times, and she probably already had keyed into your
presence long before you even saw any of the elk!

[Bugle M In]

Is it possible the wolves have pushed the elk out of this valley? Are neighboring valleys experiencing the same lack of elk? I agree there are numerous issues causing the decline, but here in the WK IMO the wolves are the number one reason for reduced ungulates.

I think j270wsm is giving a good answer here, and basically seeing the same thing.
I think it was 1996 that they put in the 6 pt (if not, it was 9.
And yes, for a time, things looked like they were improving.
More cows, seeing bulls with a harem here and there, but for me, the drop off happened a year or so sooner, but basically just
as described, that there was a noticeable change.
As for preds, yup, I was spotting way more GBear ( and not just prints, but some pretty big boars to boot!)
And til last season, was seeing more Cats, and even had a couple of "close encounters" with them while cow calling.
Wolves, they have been around for as long as I hunted, which really took off in 1985, but, we only ever saw a few tracks along
the river beds, and always the same 3 or 4 sets together, and one of them had a paw print the size of my hand.
(I believe the person who took it, said it would have scored 2nd in BC, if it was submitted).
The high point for me, was in 2000, when 18 came rolling down the river single file (and yes, I am kicking myself for not laying into them, but hey, I owned huskies at the time, so it wasn't that simple for me).
Since then, my dad saw 4 under a tree, no more then 15 yards from him, seeking shelter from the rain (again, he chose to
do nothing)
IT was maybe 4 seasons ago, when we were not only seeing prints etc, but starting to see lots of sign of their scat all over.
But that seemed to be the high point, and since then, less and less sign of them, till this season, when I saw 0 sign of them.

One last thing, on these wolves.
They kind of have a built in protection system!
Meaning, very few hunters these days go very far beyond the road closure, and even less into those high country areas I
have posted pics of in this thread.
BUT, also, they have a Park to wander in and out of, by our border with Alberta too!!!
This is one thing that will always make this pack hard to "Cull".
My Dad cant recall what year it was when he first seen sign of them, but it was somewhere in the late 70's to his recollection.
And, talking to another member thru pm's, It appears that these dogs do a "big loop" in a way, atleast now, so they hit many
of the different "big valley's" know for some good elk hunting back in "the days"

[Bugle M In]

We've seen very similar issues in the elk valley. Areas that are road closures from sept 1 - June 16 but don't hold elk, Valleys that have zero vehicle acces that don't hold elk. Friends spending countless days/kilometres hiking or riding horses and not seeing elk.

Cant remember exactly what yr the 6pt restriction came into effect but a few yrs after we started seeing more and more elk. Keep in mind that we didn't have any cow/calf elk draws. 2001-2010 was the overall elk highest numbers that I can remember. 2011-2014 I started noticing less elk in slides that they always are in. 2014-present, less and less elk to the point that I didn't buy a tag this yr which ends my 10+ yr streak of filling my elk tag.

Contributing factors that I've seen.

high grizzly numbers

2000 or 2001? Ndp put the bear moratorium in place for 4yrs ( idiots ). Low number of griz tags available, seasons being canceled due to high incidental kills( self defence, vehicles ) and hunters filling all the tags allowed a few yrs in a row.

High wolf numbers......common sense here......lots or prey means lots of wolves and People not wanting to admit the population was going up.

High cow/ calf tags. When the moe started giving out tags for the east kootenays, 4-23 in specific, it was around 50 tags and a few yrs later it jumped to 300 tags split between 2 short season and this is where it stayed until 2yrs ago when it was cut back to 30tags.

how many elk can be removed from a herd every yr before they can't sustain their numbers??

My opinion....due to high predator numbers and high cow/calf harvest the population has come down to the point the elk dont need to go into the back country to find food.

I know there was recently some debate over the collaring of MD Fawns etc, and the implications of sedating the Doe's etc.
I can understand that concern, but, I don't see any other choice left.
I really think, and I am hoping, that someone is finding some funding to put some collars on a good many different valleys of elk herds, real soon.
And not just seeing about the cows etc, but looking into somehow collaring the calves as well.
I don't see any other way to determine what is going on.
Are they not having calves, to the degree they should be, thus the slow growth in #'s in some valleys.
Are the calves just not surviving to adulthood due to Preds??
Or, are they making to adulthood, and it is something else. or, all the above.

I know, too much money being spent on studies, and not enough on action (I get it!)
But, I think I have shown that feed may not necessarily be the issue, and mother nature is starting to correct it with fires, albeit, they are still trying to "suppress them", but good luck with that!

So how to you "put money into action"??, when no one really knows what is happening the "young and upcoming stock"??
if they even are coming up at all.

And if that's the case, is that an issue with just chasing the main herd bulls (6pts), compared to the 3 pt or better.

Truth is:

Until we know how many calves are dropping in the spring per cow, and until we collar these elk, both cows and calves, and
see what is happening, we really are all just guessing in the dark, imo.

[Bugle M In]

It is a damn mystery and very interesting read thank you for sharing ... in saying that I found alot of spots low and high where I was hunting with a pretty healthy population of elk . Far too many friends and family killed 6 points or larger this year 8 now just close friends and saw many more walk . Yes vegetation changes and things start to grow up I think the animals do adapt a little and move around. I found spots this year that had very little elk sign to nothing. And went one mountain range over to find alot more game that usually had very little In the past 20 years. With your whitetail comment your definitely onto something. My father and I were way up the mountain last year in the same area and ended up taking a whitey buck I'm a very odd mountain range. I am not overly concerned from the elk this year sightings and sign in alot of areas trampled where not another human had been the whole time we were there. But animals closer to home where I love I am seeing a pop decline for sure moose deer etc. Even less wolf sign . When you find out the core problem or if it Is all of the above I would like to know and do my best to help the situation of bringing things back with hopefully alot of fellow hbcers doing the same

I do realize, living in the LM, I don't have the "flexibility" that many of you have in the EK. to go here, and if not, go there.
It is nice to know folks are finding success.
Even myself, I have had a few "blown opportunities" that could have come out differently, for sure, in the past few years.
But, this has been a steady stream of watching devoted elk hunters in the area, turning their back from the area.
All saying the same thing.
Starting with a 20+ year GO in the area, stating "no elk in the back country", but not blaming wolves at that time.
Then another GO took over, and had 1 good season, because they didn't hunt high up, but by me.
But they too, after a couple of seasons said it is "dead up here"
And the current GO, well, he aint happy either.
I know areas have highs and lows.
How many of you out there, have hunted an area with success for years, then given up on it for several years, cause it got "slow", to only come back to it down the road, and all is fantastic again.!!??

[Bugle M In]

So, back to some of the hunting.
Late Oct 1st, but into Oct 2nd saw us with somewhat of an unexpected surprise, snow.
So, that kind of put a damper on trying to use the mountain bikes for a few days this season.

[Bugle M In]

And here is a peculiar shape to the mountain which I thought my interest some.
A close up and a wide angle of the same mountain.

[Kootenay338]

I have lived in the EK my whole life and am relatively new at hunting with 12 years in. When I first got into hunting it was great, we were getting action every time we went out. We may not kill a bull but the action was great and you would go home with a smile on your face. Then they introduced the open season cow calf for youth and senior as well as a hundred cow draws. When this was going on, every time you were in the bush it was none stop gun shots. Add that to the extreme loss of prime habitat caused by poor logging practices being done by private logging on a vast amount of private land and you have the situation we are in today. Lucky to even see Elk let alone get into some serious action calling them in. Just my 2 cents from what I am personally seeing

[338win mag]

Nice pics bugle, sorry to hear about no luck this year for you and your group.
I think you dont see Wolves, grizzly, cougar sign of any extent is because there simply isn't the game in the area for them to be interested in your area at this time. I have noticed a lack of wolf sign after they have diminished the game in the area and simply seem to disappear, or large amounts of them.

I would suggest overhunting has a larger role than anyone really knows or want to acknowledge, similiar to Moose, they are easy to pick off at times of the year, and easy to pop off 10-15 at a time. It happens on crown land and private land, nobody knows how many are hunted in this way, it happens in other provinces too, I have never seen 15 Elk in a pile but know guys who have.

Sadly, what is the point of game management when this happens? curtailing access will help. I have seen where Mule deer numbers have tanked, come back to surprising numbers after access has been curtailed, it helps, alot.

[J_T]

I might offer this up.... First, it seems often when hunters of the EK speak of concerns in the local region, hunters from other parts of the province seem to speak that, the observations presented by EK hunters, are false, that "things" are fine. "Our group limits out every year, things must be fine". (Like going on an elk hunt and taking 6 does is a good thing) Look back to old threads on this site. EK hunters expressed concern about wolves, about whitetail populations, about elk populations, about predators in general. Few hunters from around the Province believed, or respected the comments coming out of the EK. I'd suggest most real hunters in the EK, are more connected to the reality than hunters who visit here. Why not start with listening to them and giving them respect.

I believe, the link between front country populations and back country migratory populations is directly linked. Without high numbers in the front country, there is no need for back country elk. Why would an elk want to do that hike when everything they want and need is in the low lands? In the 90's there were false numbers of elk in the trench. It was an estimate of 20,000, and going forward, the number showed a trend, stating there were 25,000 elk. We knew the population was increasing, but there were no hard numbers on that population. Until this most recent airborne survey (6,000) the closest we have come to actual numbers, was 14,000 in the trench a few years ago. And, under pressure from the ranching community, the decision was made to bring that population down to 5,000. That objective (based on the recent count), was successful.

Under the present Government, what we lack, are wildlife management plans with measurable objectives. We lack a plan that has forest management, focused on wildlife. We lack an idea of land use, access. We lack support for increased 'huntable' populations. We lack appropriate decisions on Grizzly bears, on Caribou and on Indigenous peoples wildlife objectives.

We talk about balanced eco-systems. The problem talking about balanced ecosystems though is what is a balanced ecosystem? In a low density equilibrium, the prey base is at very low densities. It cannot increase because they are suppressed by predators; predators are also at low densities and cannot increase because they are limited by the prey base. As Bob Hayes said in his book “Wolves of the Yukon”, once in a low density equilibrium there is little if any prey available for hunter harvest. Is this a balanced ecosystem? If so is that what we are aiming for. Maybe hunters and Gov wildlife biologists see the objectives differently.

Wildlife management based on balance, trends and percentages is misleading. If a guy has 20 elk in his back 5 acres. With the right number of bulls, cows and calves, we could say that the elk population is balanced and sustainable. But there is no huntable population. And that is a missing objective.

We need increased resources to write wildlife management plans. We need to carry out cumulative impact assessments, evaluate logging practices, post burn management, vehicle access, climate change, when, where and how we hunt. We need to have a statement that we want, and will have, an increase in wildlife populations. Not just sustainable populations. We want more animals. We need to think of hunting as 'management hunting'. In support of a wildlife population objective.

[masoncade1992]

I’m gunna take a wild guess that u were up the galbraith, if that was the case then over hunting is defiantly a issue. The previous outfitter killed way to many elk. Grizzly bears eat them like sunflower seeds up there and the few that are left have adapted and live high and free

No offence, but kind of a dick move to spell out someone's possible area on an open forum. I think a PM would have been much more appreciated by the OP.