Another EK Elk Hunt Down the Tubes

[masoncade1992]

UP in 7b we are seeing the exact same thing slowly unfold. Years ago when everything was 6pt and non antlerless, you could easily see hundreds of elk in the farmers fields during the day. Then when the opened the cows with 3 pt bulls, it dwindled quick. Now you would be lucky to see a few elk at last light. The antlerless draws and GOS need to end. I would actually venture to say that was the #1 issue with the EK as well. Opening Cows, decimates an elk population quick. I can understand letting a few go LEH to the young hunters and only to assist on the troublesome elk, but how they do it now is complete B.S.

[Bugle M In]

No offence, but kind of a dick move to spell out someone's possible area on an open forum. I think a PM would have been much more appreciated by the OP.

It's okay,
I leave myself "open" to folks guessing where I hunt, so that's on me, as I am choosing to show my concerns.
But yes, if you have a question, pm is a better way to get an answer.

[Rackmastr]

No offence, but kind of a dick move to spell out someone's possible area on an open forum. I think a PM would have been much more appreciated by the OP.

"No offence but kinda a dick move" hahahhaa. But no offence right???

Im sure no one is super excited to go check out a spot with no elk haha.

[Bugle M In]

I have lived in the EK my whole life and am relatively new at hunting with 12 years in. When I first got into hunting it was great, we were getting action every time we went out. We may not kill a bull but the action was great and you would go home with a smile on your face. Then they introduced the open season cow calf for youth and senior as well as a hundred cow draws. When this was going on, every time you were in the bush it was none stop gun shots. Add that to the extreme loss of prime habitat caused by poor logging practices being done by private logging on a vast amount of private land and you have the situation we are in today. Lucky to even see Elk let alone get into some serious action calling them in. Just my 2 cents from what I am personally seeing

Now, theres a another good point.
Zone X hunts have done us in, imo.
I am not going to blame anyone in particular on this, as I can understand ranchers concerns etc, BUT, I think WE ALL need to
accept that many of these "properties where Zone X Fell into" were/are/should be Winter Range!
Lets face it, the true "indigenous" are the Wildlife, like Elk in the EK!
(Warning to all those listening to those Vineyards in the Okanagan complaining and want a MD Cull, DONT LET IT HAPPEN!)

That being said, Predators such as wolves, probably have to some major degree caused Wildlife like Elk to Flee down to lower
Altitudes, and to stay there, as wolves don't like getting to close to humans (but that's changing as well, as the have no choice
but to pursue game down there, or starve)
Thus, ranchers complained more, thus zone x, and bye bye cow elk etc.

The thing that makes me so mad, when I think about this now, (and there was a member here,6166, who is no longer with us), said the same thing, the "big mistake" in the 90's and earlier, was all those damn cow leh!, and I agree fully with that.
IT was absolutely ridicoulos!, and I remember there were something like 400 or 500 permits in many of the MU's of R4 to
obtain, year after year.

The whole reason for the 6pt introduction, was because many were starting to notice the "drop off" in elk #'s.
It was also the reason why all those Cow LEH permits were reduced almost completely!
How we ended now having a zoneX hunt, just boggles my mind, but trust, I obviously can see what the argument was for it,
but never agreed with it.
I just hadn't completely realized that elk were moving "down", but not coming back up!
We were getting so close to recovering, imo.

[Bugle M In]

I have lived in the EK my whole life and am relatively new at hunting with 12 years in. When I first got into hunting it was great, we were getting action every time we went out. We may not kill a bull but the action was great and you would go home with a smile on your face. Then they introduced the open season cow calf for youth and senior as well as a hundred cow draws. When this was going on, every time you were in the bush it was none stop gun shots. Add that to the extreme loss of prime habitat caused by poor logging practices being done by private logging on a vast amount of private land and you have the situation we are in today. Lucky to even see Elk let alone get into some serious action calling them in. Just my 2 cents from what I am personally seeing

One other thing to add, is you are right, when it comes to "elk hunting", I never measured success by what was hanging in the tree at the end of the week.
Success was having "Bulls Bugle", having some action here or there, just like you say!
If it ended up being a 5pt, so what, and if I had different action during the week, and all were 5pts, it was just fun,
and yes, sometimes you need "luck" to have it be a 6pt.
But having "Action" more my measure of success, then whether I was successful or not.
My buddy, when I got him started, and wanted him in the sport, was just in awe of the different bulls that came in,
and the action, not the killing, that got him "hooked".
If it had been like it is now, I never would have had convinced him join in.

[Bugle M In]

Nice pics bugle, sorry to hear about no luck this year for you and your group.
I think you dont see Wolves, grizzly, cougar sign of any extent is because there simply isn't the game in the area for them to be interested in your area at this time. I have noticed a lack of wolf sign after they have diminished the game in the area and simply seem to disappear, or large amounts of them.

I would suggest overhunting has a larger role than anyone really knows or want to acknowledge, similiar to Moose, they are easy to pick off at times of the year, and easy to pop off 10-15 at a time. It happens on crown land and private land, nobody knows how many are hunted in this way, it happens in other provinces too, I have never seen 15 Elk in a pile but know guys who have.

Sadly, what is the point of game management when this happens? curtailing access will help. I have seen where Mule deer numbers have tanked, come back to surprising numbers after access has been curtailed, it helps, alot.

Agree, lack of much, if any Pred sign, is probably now an indication of a "close to dead valley".
As for Access, that has been curtailed for over 40 years.
Trust me, my dad spoke of countless road hunter all day long going up into the high country and back down.
Yes, I am sure there is the odd person breaking that rule, but I would guess the Vehicle Restriction, has curtailed traffic in
there by 99%.
It is good to see the most hunters are "Ethical".
Yes, there is poaching going on, but nothing significant that doesn't happen anywhere else. (no poaching ring going on!)
Yes, talking to some locals, much of the success these days is on private land, and yes, who knows what happen on some of
those properties, and at what time of the year.
A pile of 15, well yes, I have been hearing stories of that, and most of that seems to happen in December, from the sounds of it, so, that isn't really "Hunting Regs" gone wrong, but just another issue the could definitely be severely impacting Elk #'s!

[Bugle M In]

UP in 7b we are seeing the exact same thing slowly unfold. Years ago when everything was 6pt and non antlerless, you could easily see hundreds of elk in the farmers fields during the day. Then when the opened the cows with 3 pt bulls, it dwindled quick. Now you would be lucky to see a few elk at last light. The antlerless draws and GOS need to end. I would actually venture to say that was the #1 issue with the EK as well. Opening Cows, decimates an elk population quick. I can understand letting a few go LEH to the young hunters and only to assist on the troublesome elk, but how they do it now is complete B.S.

I understand, in '96 (I think?) when they implemented the 6pt restriction, they needed too.
I get it, as we had really devastated our Cow #'s at the time.
But, it should have been reversed back at some point, when many of us were seeing that the Cows were making a significant come back, but they didn't.
Sorry, but I just don't see how forcing every elk hunter to chase to the potential herd bull helps the situation??!
That 6pt Bull has won his right, as the strongest, fittest bull to breed (and hey, he might be a 5 pt!, antlers have nothing to do with it).
Anyways, we are chasing him.
I don't see the good in that, and the fact that some 5pts never become 6's anyways.
I have heard were there is a herd of 15, with 1, 6 pt bull, and there are probably 3 or 4 hunting parties pursuing that 1 bull!!
He has already had to fight his way to the top, and still has to hump his way thru the workload, all why trying to outsmart us.
(sad part is, even with all that , they still show us how stupid we are, when they leave us in the dust)
It was the Cow permits back then, and then we just went and did it again, just lower down.
Some Cow LEH is fine, and in a healthy scenario, more then doable.

[masoncade1992]

I understand, in '96 (I think?) when they implemented the 6pt restriction, they needed too.
I get it, as we had really devastated our Cow #'s at the time.
But, it should have been reversed back at some point, when many of us were seeing that the Cows were making a significant come back, but they didn't.
Sorry, but I just don't see how forcing every elk hunter to chase to the potential herd bull helps the situation??!
That 6pt Bull has won his right, as the strongest, fittest bull to breed (and hey, he might be a 5 pt!, antlers have nothing to do with it).
Anyways, we are chasing him.
I don't see the good in that, and the fact that some 5pts never become 6's anyways.
I have heard were there is a herd of 15, with 1, 6 pt bull, and there are probably 3 or 4 hunting parties pursuing that 1 bull!!
He has already had to fight his way to the top, and still has to hump his way thru the workload, all why trying to outsmart us.
(sad part is, even with all that , they still show us how stupid we are, when they leave us in the dust)
It was the Cow permits back then, and then we just went and did it again, just lower down.
Some Cow LEH is fine, and in a healthy scenario, more then doable.

100% agree. a 5 pt or better season would be key. we have seen lots of very small 5 pts and by shooting the ones with bad genetics and giving the herd bulls a break, the herd overall would be healthy. sometimes with the 3 point or better season, I think that its to much pressure on the up and coming bulls. The 3 pts are really dumb and will come in to a sneeze if they think its a cow haha.

[Bugle M In]

I might offer this up.... First, it seems often when hunters of the EK speak of concerns in the local region, hunters from other parts of the province seem to speak that, the observations presented by EK hunters, are false, that "things" are fine. "Our group limits out every year, things must be fine". (Like going on an elk hunt and taking 6 does is a good thing) Look back to old threads on this site. EK hunters expressed concern about wolves, about whitetail populations, about elk populations, about predators in general. Few hunters from around the Province believed, or respected the comments coming out of the EK. I'd suggest most real hunters in the EK, are more connected to the reality than hunters who visit here. Why not start with listening to them and giving them respect.

I believe, the link between front country populations and back country migratory populations is directly linked. Without high numbers in the front country, there is no need for back country elk. Why would an elk want to do that hike when everything they want and need is in the low lands? In the 90's there were false numbers of elk in the trench. It was an estimate of 20,000, and going forward, the number showed a trend, stating there were 25,000 elk. We knew the population was increasing, but there were no hard numbers on that population. Until this most recent airborne survey (6,000) the closest we have come to actual numbers, was 14,000 in the trench a few years ago. And, under pressure from the ranching community, the decision was made to bring that population down to 5,000. That objective (based on the recent count), was successful.

Under the present Government, what we lack, are wildlife management plans with measurable objectives. We lack a plan that has forest management, focused on wildlife. We lack an idea of land use, access. We lack support for increased 'huntable' populations. We lack appropriate decisions on Grizzly bears, on Caribou and on Indigenous peoples wildlife objectives.

We talk about balanced eco-systems. The problem talking about balanced ecosystems though is what is a balanced ecosystem? In a low density equilibrium, the prey base is at very low densities. It cannot increase because they are suppressed by predators; predators are also at low densities and cannot increase because they are limited by the prey base. As Bob Hayes said in his book “Wolves of the Yukon”, once in a low density equilibrium there is little if any prey available for hunter harvest. Is this a balanced ecosystem? If so is that what we are aiming for. Maybe hunters and Gov wildlife biologists see the objectives differently.

Wildlife management based on balance, trends and percentages is misleading. If a guy has 20 elk in his back 5 acres. With the right number of bulls, cows and calves, we could say that the elk population is balanced and sustainable. But there is no huntable population. And that is a missing objective.

We need increased resources to write wildlife management plans. We need to carry out cumulative impact assessments, evaluate logging practices, post burn management, vehicle access, climate change, when, where and how we hunt. We need to have a statement that we want, and will have, an increase in wildlife populations. Not just sustainable populations. We want more animals. We need to think of hunting as 'management hunting'. In support of a wildlife population objective.

Well Said J-T!!!
(as far as listening to EK hunters, that's fair, but not all of us down in the LM are out to lunch either, as many of us have had concerns for years, just as some ek hunters said, there are elk around, cause I have no problems getting mine, catch my drift?)

Anyways, that petty compared to all the fine/excellent points you put on here.
After reading your points, I kind of came to a very quick realization, that we our probably pretty much F****D if we are ever going to get all those stars aligned in a row!
Just remember folks, when a teetering rock, actually begins to fall, it accelerates real quick before it "crashes".
I think the rock might have just dropped off the edge.

[HighCountryBC]

The best summer range in the world doesn't mean a thing if the winter range doesn't have the carrying capacity to support higher numbers. Populations will always be limited by this. Poor quality habitat and high predator numbers means one thing for ungulates. Most are coming around and figuring that out but others still want to scream for more regulations.

Fund it, burn some significant country, have a predator management plan and start protecting vital winter range. Look at some of the states that are similar to BC: They don't have useless antler point restrictions like we do here and instead harvest both sexes and across all age classes. That in addition to all the things mentioned above results in great quality habitat and sustainably high game numbers available to hunt.

A lot of hunters are coming around but there are still a large percentage that think everything will be solved by if we just keep restricting seasons. It hasn't worked for 40+ years but why not give it another try eh!