Another EK Elk Hunt Down the Tubes

[Bugle M In]

lol lower mainlander calls local east kootenay outfitter to ask how his elk hunting has been..... I bet that conversation held no lies. haha

Why, do you think all GO's are a bunch of lying jerks?
Do you think the 2 before him, one of which held the area for decades, and was concerned was lying.
Why would the younger family members who are GO's themselves, elsewhere, not take over the territory?
I guess when you know people in town who also know that the GO's have had little success, they must be lying as well?

You can take my concerns for nothing if you so want, that's fine.
All I was trying to show members was, that although we talk about "habitat" as a big concern, that like me and the GO in the area would say, we would argue with anyone to tell us there is "not enough feed" in the high country around there.
An area that did hold elk historically for years.
I know I have spoke to more than just the local GO, or the local resident in the area, or the guys who work the area day in and day out, and they all feel the same way.
I've talked to folks who hunt more up north of me, and know there is a definite shortage of elk, even those that had success this year.
Same goes to the south of me, that they are seeing elk, but are concerned at how few there seem to be these days.
I have never based success on "if I cut my tag or not".
And there are lots of ways to tell if elk are around, not just by visual confirmation, but the sign they leave etc, even if they were there for a few short months per season.
And yes, some years are going to be poor, just happens that way sometimes, but this is more unusual then normal, by a long shot.

Yes, one can go elsewhere, but it is a shame that an area that once held plenty of elk, does not any longer, and that should be of concern to everyone, from a conservation stand point.
Eventually areas like yours could slowly get over run potentially, when folks start looking elsewhere because their areas are now depleted of game, and o signs of them ever returning.
Is that the type of province you want for resident hunters?
Yes, I could have gone to where I knew there where 120 head of elk appr., but there is very little public land to hunt on around there, and everyone (especially the locals) were all over it.

There are concerns elsewhere for Moose in the province (even though some will still be successful), and other areas are now becoming alarming for MD (by those who are real avid MD hunters and have the time and experience, even though I have yet to see it around me, but doesn't mean that I think they are lying or are wrong).
I am just passing along that we need to start being aware that there are some real concerns for elk #'s in the EK.
That is not based on cutting a tag, and it took me years longer then most to "give up" on the area, and to realize those GO's were not lying, otherwise they would still own the territory.

One other thing to consider about GO's, whether you like them or hate them, they hold the license for the territory, and thus want it "huntable".
But if the area becomes void of game, thus not able to sustain a huntable business, and word gets out, and no other GO decides to buy it up, it can fall into the hands of folks like Raincoast, and you now how they view hunting, and will want all those areas to become reserves, void of hunting if they can.
Not a road any of use want to go down.
Most GO's wont give away trade secrets etc, but GO's have one shortcoming, they use horses, so over the years you get to know exactly where they do their hunting!
On top of that, I have a pretty good relationship with this GO, and have even given them info of what I saw and where at the end of the week (I wont tell them before I go however).
Why not, he seems like a good guy, and seems like a decent GO, compared to one in the past who was bad for wildlife.
Rather see a legit guy, who cares, stay in business, then to have it shot to shit by one who is all about the cash.

But you are right, I am in talks with some on here about where to go next season, unless I get that bull moose draw
for the area

[Bugle M In]

Its not a secret area, my buddy just checked his cameras up there last week and theres elk on them among other things
6 points as well.

Hey LBM, how are you, I was surprised you hadn't chimed in til now!
Yup, spoke to a local, even closer to the area then yourself in town.
There is one nice 6pt for sure in there, and saw where they came out of from the high country, and know where they ended up (atleast at that time).
But, its a far cry from the game #'s it once was up there.
And, those elk only came out of one of the 3 main valleys in there.
I never said the area was completely void of elk, but the #'s are way down in there for sure.

As for Wolves and our discussion earlier this year, yup, would have to agree, there was no sign of them whatsoever.
Not sure if that is a good thing or not????
At least if they are around, you know they have a food source available.
Cougars were also not seen in there as well this time.
Moose are doing well , for what it is worth, but will never be a GOS ever again for them.
The one thing that did look promising is the amount of MD sign, which seems to be growing over the past 3 years.

What is funny however, is you do take the time to say "elk are there, or game is there", but in other posts you say
"The game will never be like it was before"???
That humans have destroyed it?

I get the human factor, and all accounts, but I will never just point a finger at hunters and say they "shot it to shit".
Even the local from town who its all the areas, all the time, on mtn bike says he is concerned as well.
His feeling it is "over hunting", thus the "shot to shit ek" comment he made, or as he says "the locals call it".

I have no reason to believe this was or has been the case, especially when you factor in the countless miles of Road Restrictions in all those watersheds, and by the time they get out of there, the season is closed.
As for what happens after the season, poaching etc, I doubt it is any more problematic then any where else in the province, atleast from the "evidence" point of view.

Zone X does however correlate to the right time frame for the decline in #'s from my thoughts, and wolves have always been up there, but maybe it was a slow death, that took years to show up, and why many, even the studies, suggest elk are being pushed down low, and not returning back up to the high country come spring.

Might also explain the correlation between elk being too numerous down low quickly, and why the locals wanted them Culled?

Either way, messy situation now.
But blaming hunters wont fix the problem, but carry on.

[Kootenaykid85]

there are 3 types of hunters out there.... well more then that but for arguments sake lets say 3

type 1- they drive 9 hours to hunt the same area there fathers.....grandfathers....great grandfathers did bla bla bla. 2 weeks later they go home and b@#%$ about how there are no animals left...and the world is going to sh#%.

type 2- guys who adapt to the current wildlife situation, try new areas try new things.... different times of the year....ext They Work their butt off becuase they love getting out and seeing new things. they may not be succesfull but they enjoyed getting out in it none the less.

type 3- their season isnt a 2 week vacation or the odd weekend out. they spend the off season building bait stations and putting up salt blocks to hold animals. Finding new areas... spending hours cutting trails into remote locations. They spend the winter hunting predators. They dont sit on a computer and pout to the hunting commuinity that they had a shi%%y year thats for sure.

I am not trying to piss you off but we understand its not like hunting in the 80s anymore and if you think it will ever be like that again you should find a new hobby.

[Bugle M In]

I would take both a "local tourist operator" and outfitter's anecdotal reporting with a very large grain of salt.

The tourist operator, yes, I would as well.
Except, he does like us, mostly because many of his guests think it is pretty cool to see hunters using mountain bikes to hunt, when they run into us.
Of course, some are offended.
But the operator also knows we are some of the honest guys that have reported illegal hunting activity in the past.
Mainly guys hunting beyond the road closures in vehicle (which, is limited, but does occur), even after we have told them that they are "out of bounds", and then continue to hunt anyways.
(the ones that go "oops" and leave, we never bothered with).

And I can see why some think GO's lie, because they don't want the competition, especially when money is involved.
But when you get GO's coming to your camp to chat, and you see their frustration, its very apparent after 3 different operators, that something is wrong, and they aren't lying.
If this was just one GO, I wouldn't have even dared to bring that comment up on this site, that's for sure!

Then you take the local who hunts all the areas around, and his experiences of the area and elk, and you start seeing the writing on the wall. (he was in for a different species in this area anyways)

[Bugle M In]

there are 3 types of hunters out there.... well more then that but for arguments sake lets say 3

type 1- they drive 9 hours to hunt the same area there fathers.....grandfathers....great grandfathers did bla bla bla. 2 weeks later they go home and b@#%$ about how there are no animals left...and the world is going to sh#%.

type 2- guys who adapt to the current wildlife situation, try new areas try new things.... different times of the year....ext They Work their butt off becuase they love getting out and seeing new things. they may not be succesfull but they enjoyed getting out in it none the less.

type 3- their season isnt a 2 week vacation or the odd weekend out. they spend the off season building bait stations and putting up salt blocks to hold animals. Finding new areas... spending hours cutting trails into remote locations. They spend the winter hunting predators. They dont sit on a computer and pout to the hunting commuinity that they had a shi%%y year thats for sure.

I am not trying to piss you off but we understand its not like hunting in the 80s anymore and if you think it will ever be like that again you should find a new hobby.

Nope, don't think you are trying to piss me off.

Take #3.
I know of a few guys doing that (I may not know exactly where they have them, but I have an idea where the area is),
and they are very disappointed with what they are seeing, or not seeing.
If they do see stuff, they are rarely 6's and if so, small.
And those bulls even if around, aren't lasting long once the season opens.
So, so much more a decent breeding stock, when it get to this point, so yes, we should be concerned.

#1, should I take offence?
That I drive 9hrs +, that I still hunt with family, in areas that should hold elk.
Yes I do take offence!
Especially when you think I don't work my ass off!!!
I put on more miles then just about anybody while I am there.
Is my only shortcoming that I am not there to hunt it 40 days like some, yes!.
Had I put in another week to the hunt, do I think I would have been successful, good chance yes.
As LBM said, there was a 6pt around, that had come down from up high.
How do I know, cause I worked my ass off! trying to find some elk to even hunt in there.
Just ran out of time!

#2 type, well I have done that as well, gone a little further south and to the left and to the right, and I don't see much
better down there.
Yes there are pockets of them, but a far cry from what once was.

Now, for your "HardCore" comment.
There are a few of you guys over the years, who think you are just that, and everyone else is not legit.
Without bringing up names directly, I remember one "real hardcore MD Hunter".
And it wasn't too long ago, just a couple of years back, where he like to "throw it in peoples faces" that they, the
#1's in your list, that had no clue what they were talking about, that they had no clue how to hunt, and they are just
babies etc.
On top of that, this same hardcore hunter would protest loudly when someone said areas were getting pounded by hunters, and that the game was getting shot up, blah bla bla.

Well, now this Hardcore MD hunter is now sounding like group #1?
Yet, he is a group#3 in your books.

I don't have an issue with MD and I hunt the same Region, but not same MU probably.
This hardcore hunter will probably go elsewhere as well, adjusting to the conditions, but I can tell you it still probably pisses him off that his honeyholes which should hold MD, do not now!

Now, do I put his skills to question, nope!
Do I just not believe him, because I am still having success?, nope.

I have said how the situation is for me as compared to him, and that I am not seeing the problems he is seeinh, which is fair, like you are with me!
Difference is, I have said to that hardcore MD hunter that it may only be a matter of time til I see the same sad results as him in my area.
(if it is the wolves or logging, that's up to debate, but #'s wouldn't be).
I just don't assume that because one is from the LM, that they are inadequate hunters.

I see a lot of locals who just drive all day long!.
I was talking about folks who's money is on the line, or live close by, and who do work at it.
The concern is, we have a large area that should hold elk, and isn't!
It is being under utilized and holding elk way below even a legitimate capacity!
That's what the concern is!
It's not just about me and my situation, or about you and your situation.
Its more about the future, and for those behind us coming up, who I am concerned more about.
If you disagree, fine, just don't categorize, a you have never spent a second in my boots, or know what miles I put on them or even where I am.
Hopefully the changes coming that are in discussion make a difference, but I am concerned that if they just plan on implementing more restrictions ( because that's all they can control, with little money involved), that it will be
a big failure.

But hey, I hope your right and I am wrong ( I do hope I am wrong cause if I am right, I do not feel so assured that it will be fixed anymore)

[Bugle M In]

Again, will post up the link, which seems to be from folks who are "locals", and from what I have experienced, I would concur:
https://www.columbiavalleypioneer.co...n-past-decade/

As for folks coming from LM and/or hunting with family, I do take offence to that.
Hunting is something that most of us enjoy doing with family and friends, one of the biggest reasons we take up hunting, is to share the experience, not just cut tags.
I know of one member who we would all consider "hardcore" in regards to elk hunting, probably 99.9% more hardcore then most anyone else, who would give anything to still have his dad around to hunt elk with!
And, on top of that, ran into the similar problems with his honeyhole, and definetly nothing to do with his abilities and effort!
And, there are members on here, who never had the opportunity to hunt with their Dad's, as they lost them to soon in life, and didn't grow up with one, who would also have given anything to have done so.

I don't understand why we think anyone who isn't us, is bad?
Yes, there are a few GO's, a few FN, and yes even some residents that are bad news.
But, for the most part, most are good, and just because someone isn't a local, doesn't mean they are incapable or clueless!
Everyone of the folks that decided to get themselves reported to the CO, where I was involved with, sadly was a local!
There's lots of us down here that when we are there, put in the miles and effort.
But again, just another rift in the hunting community at large.
You know, us the locals and then those frickin jokes from the LM ruining everything for you up there.

Just shows how divided up we are, and always will be, and how little anyone is prepared to move forward, trying to fix up our wildlife conservation problems.

[Kootenaykid85]

I did not mean hunting with your family is a sin, I meant hunting is not like it used to be for them.... in the areas they used to hunt.......

[Bugle M In]

I did not mean hunting with your family is a sin, I meant hunting is not like it used to be for them.... in the areas they used to hunt.......

I agree, we get older, and cant hunt like we once did, that why they have us.
But, at 79, my dad was still pushing a mtn bike, and I can tell you, you don't want to see his medical file, as it is
amazing what he endures and yet still works hard.

Is it like it was, nope, and will it ever be, no!
I had hoped that some of the changes in the late 90's were going to help, and for a short time, looked good, but now,
nope.

And I agree, as time goes by, things change.
But, I know many guys who had honeyholes, that then dried up for x amount of years, and then suddenly as it had dried up, it came back to life.
I expected it to be the same here, and with the lack of other hunters, basically none, compared to the late 80's, the game should of had an easier time (if we want to blame hunting for the loss of game and pressure).
But why the major collapse??, beyond me.
Slow years yes, but not to this degree, for this long.
I have taken many different folks along, others who are either avid MD hunters or Moose hunters or sheep hunter.
They know I put all my time into it, and all my efforts, so when they hear what I am experiencing, they know I am not
just whining.
I know LBM likes to point out that I missed some etc, nothing new there.
But, I used to spend several days scouting and then several days hunting them.
Now I spend most of my days just scouting for them, and if I am lucky, I get 1 day left to hunt them.
So yes, I guess it will have to be a full 2 to 3 week hunt.

One thing to think about, speaking to another member who did finally connect.
He and his partner, who are locals, and him just learning elk hunting, spent the full season, whenever they could trying to hunt for elk.
Seems like for the entire season, they hit the same area, trying to connect with 1 legal bull they saw.
Imagine, hunting that many days, and only ever pursuing the "same bull"???
You would think that maybe th4ey would have chased several different bulls over that time, but no, just the same one.
When did elk hunting become a "sheep hunt"?

[Wild one]

Bugle m in mail box full

[horshur]

I might offer this up.... First, it seems often when hunters of the EK speak of concerns in the local region, hunters from other parts of the province seem to speak that, the observations presented by EK hunters, are false, that "things" are fine. "Our group limits out every year, things must be fine". (Like going on an elk hunt and taking 6 does is a good thing) Look back to old threads on this site. EK hunters expressed concern about wolves, about whitetail populations, about elk populations, about predators in general. Few hunters from around the Province believed, or respected the comments coming out of the EK. I'd suggest most real hunters in the EK, are more connected to the reality than hunters who visit here. Why not start with listening to them and giving them respect.

I believe, the link between front country populations and back country migratory populations is directly linked. Without high numbers in the front country, there is no need for back country elk. Why would an elk want to do that hike when everything they want and need is in the low lands? In the 90's there were false numbers of elk in the trench. It was an estimate of 20,000, and going forward, the number showed a trend, stating there were 25,000 elk. We knew the population was increasing, but there were no hard numbers on that population. Until this most recent airborne survey (6,000) the closest we have come to actual numbers, was 14,000 in the trench a few years ago. And, under pressure from the ranching community, the decision was made to bring that population down to 5,000. That objective (based on the recent count), was successful.

Under the present Government, what we lack, are wildlife management plans with measurable objectives. We lack a plan that has forest management, focused on wildlife. We lack an idea of land use, access. We lack support for increased 'huntable' populations. We lack appropriate decisions on Grizzly bears, on Caribou and on Indigenous peoples wildlife objectives.

We talk about balanced eco-systems. The problem talking about balanced ecosystems though is what is a balanced ecosystem? In a low density equilibrium, the prey base is at very low densities. It cannot increase because they are suppressed by predators; predators are also at low densities and cannot increase because they are limited by the prey base. As Bob Hayes said in his book “Wolves of the Yukon”, once in a low density equilibrium there is little if any prey available for hunter harvest. Is this a balanced ecosystem? If so is that what we are aiming for. Maybe hunters and Gov wildlife biologists see the objectives differently.

Wildlife management based on balance, trends and percentages is misleading. If a guy has 20 elk in his back 5 acres. With the right number of bulls, cows and calves, we could say that the elk population is balanced and sustainable. But there is no huntable population. And that is a missing objective.

We need increased resources to write wildlife management plans. We need to carry out cumulative impact assessments, evaluate logging practices, post burn management, vehicle access, climate change, when, where and how we hunt. We need to have a statement that we want, and will have, an increase in wildlife populations. Not just sustainable populations. We want more animals. We need to think of hunting as 'management hunting'. In support of a wildlife population objective.

Thanks!.......