NStQ First Nations, B.C., Canada advance to final treaty negotiations

[Wild one]

What sort of institutionalized racism do First Nations people face in 2018?
Clearly I'm too dumb to read your fancy quoted studies so I need someone to water it down for me, because I can't find any examples.

I know for some courses and tickets they need a lower % to pass the final test/course. Personally I would say that is racist and insulting suggesting FN do not have the same mental capability of other races so they are held to a lower standard

Then take in some cases when a FN is charged with a crime they receive a lesser sentence because they are FN. This again is racist suggesting FN are not capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong

This is just two examples but this racism is ok lol

[Pemby_mess]

But the judges are. This the same legal system that allowed all of this to happen in the first place. It has changed as attitudes (emotions) have changed. It will change again. For all of its posturing the framework of Canadian Law is the same as it was 150 years ago. The framework that allowed forced ghettos, sterilization, systemic racism is still in place. Only the emotions and opinions have changed. A democratic Society is based emotional sensibilities. To argue otherwise is not understand history. There is precedence in nature that decries murder or robbery. Every species will kill and steal if it suits them and face no repercussions or regrets. Every species except humans because we developed to "feel" bad about it and view it as wrong. Logic plays no role, only emotion.

you don't think there is logic behind those emotions? Our emotions developed out of a process to keep us alive thus far. Most Western philosophical processes have been an exercise in applying those survival mechanisms to larger, more sophisticated societies. I agree that the emotions of the population are influential, but it's our legal procedures that have tempered those and directed them as efficaciously as we've had the knowledge to do so. And, yes those do hopefully change and get more efficacious as we advance our societies and increase their sophistication even further.

you're talking about differences between legislation and adjudication. Adjudication has the last word. The legislation regarding aboriginal title was never tested through the judiciary, now it is.

[Livewire322]

A good, simple example is if a FN goes into receive healthcare, they are exponentially more likely to be immediately considered "a frequent flyer", despite there being no evidence of that, and lack of appropriate treatment is the result. Poor educational outcomes in indigenous communities beget both teacher and administrative apathy toward even engaged students, creating a self perpetuated cycle, and plenty of missed opportunities. Poor funding/ and or inconsistent funding for the basic infrastructure the rest of Canadian communities have come to depend. Inequality within the justice system, creates systemic problems in the communities of the incarcerated.

We all have biases, and despite modern Canadian professionals spending a lot of time training to acknowledge these biases, they continue to effect how we distribute our collective resources.

And fat people are less likely to be taken seriously by their doctors. That’s not an institutional problem that’s an issue with some individuals in the medical system.

I partially agree with you about poor education outcomes, once again though it’s not isolated to natives. Our education system as a whole needs to become more flexible to individual learning capabilities.
Sure, in some places they’ve shitty infrastructure, so do other remote communities. I agree that this should be solved but once again the blame is not isolated to natives.

Inequallity in the justice system? Really? I haven’t seen any bias against natives in any of the high profile cases lately. There may be a disproportionate amount of natives in prison but to me that means there are a disproportionate amount of natives committing crimes. There’s more males (85%) admitted to prison, should I feel singled out because I am male? The law is the law and it should apply to all equally.

[jassmine]

This is a perfect example of how the anecdotal he says, she says, game benefits nobody in the end. If we bring anecdotal evidence and stereotypes as proof/evidence to the table nothing gets solved and tensions continue rise. This is an issue for both sides of the argument.

nothing anecdotal about it. It's borne out through the same research that constitutes the training of healthcare proffesionals throughout the country. I'm 100% positive that if you read Jasmine's links, they'll say essentially the same thing. You asked for a summary, I gave you the one that's in my head from reading similar papers. It's empirically measured.

Correct, it is not anecdotal at all, here are specific references supporting Pemby_mess' summary:


"These narratives revealed that women’s encounters were shaped by racism, discrimination, and structural inequities that continue to marginalize and disadvantage First Nations women. The women’s health care experiences have historical, political, and economic significance and are reflective of wider postcolonial relations that shape their everyday lives."

Browne, A. J., & Fiske, J. A. (2001). First Nations women’s encounters with mainstream health care services. Western journal of nursing research, 23(2), 126-147.

"Specifically, we illustrate how the ideological process of racialization can shapethe ways that health care providers ‘read’ and interact with Aboriginal patients,and how some Aboriginal patients avoid seeking health care based on theirexpectation of being treated differently"

Tang, S. Y., & Browne, A. J. (200. ‘Race’matters: racialization and egalitarian discourses involving Aboriginal people in the Canadian health care context. Ethnicity and Health, 13(2), 109-127.

Adelson, N. (2005). The embodiment of inequity: Health disparities in Aboriginal Canada. Canadian Journal of Public Health/Revue Canadienne de Sante'e Publique, S45-S61.

Bourassa, C., McKay-McNabb, K., & Hampton, M. (2004). Racism, sexism and colonialism: The impact on the health of Aboriginal women in Canada. Canadian Woman Studies, 24(1).

[Mulehahn]

you don't think there is logic behind those emotions? Our emotions developed out of a process to keep us alive thus far. Most Western philosophical processes have been an exercise in applying those survival mechanisms to larger, more sophisticated societies. I agree that the emotions of the population are influential, but it's our legal procedures that have tempered those and directed them as efficaciously as we've had the knowledge to do so. And, yes those do hopefully change and get more efficacious as we advance our societies and increase their sophistication even further.

you're talking about differences between legislation and adjudication. Adjudication has the last word. The legislation regarding aboriginal title was never tested through the judiciary, now it is.

No. I do not think logic applied. Lets discuss western philosophy. I am a ardent supporter of Hobbes and Montesquieu. Life is "solitary, poor,*nasty, brutish, and short."*Yes, people should strive for a state of peace; but that is driven from q state of Fear! A very powerful emotion.

You are right, I am discussing legislation. Legislation is based entirely on opinions and emotions. Adjudication is the system in which it is applied. It was legislation that called for residential schools. It was legislation that allowed for Jspanese internment. It was legislation that lead to Chinatowns! All created based on emotion! Emotions change.

[Pemby_mess]

And fat people are less likely to be taken seriously by their doctors. That’s not an institutional problem that’s an issue with some individuals in the medical system.
.

A healthcare provider making judgement calls based on someone being fat, actually has a lot of utility. I haven't seen anything to suggest that fat people get less or inappropriate treatment based on their weight. I suspect you could find evidence to support the opposite. The papers I'm mentally referencing were noting stark differences in how Canadian aboriginals experienced the healthcare system in comparison with non-aboriginals. In many cases the differences were life and death.

There's now information available about racially orientated abuses within Canadian child services. To the point where it appears tthere has been widespread deliberate institutionalization of many FN children. The premise of course is that their mothers a too poor and dysfunctional to release the kids back to, not necessarily because of evidence to that affect, but simply because they are in a FN community.

[Pemby_mess]

.

You are right, I am discussing legislation. Legislation is based entirely on opinions and emotions. Adjudication is the system in which it is applied. It was legislation that called for residential schools. It was legislation that allowed for Jspanese internment. It was legislation that lead to Chinatowns! All created based on emotion! Emotions change.

All legislation that was never judicially tested. And now it being tested in the case of unceded FN title. Not because of guilt, but based on long established legal principles. And when I say established, I mean at least back to the Magna Carta.

[Pemby_mess]

No. I do not think logic applied. Lets discuss western philosophy. I am a ardent supporter of Hobbes and Montesquieu. Life is "solitary, poor,*nasty, brutish, and short."*Yes, people should strive for a state of peace; but that is driven from q state of Fear! A very powerful emotion.

I doubt many would agree the above quote defines their philosophical accretions very well. Do you think classical liberals generated those ideas out of guilt or fear?

And why aren't FN able to apply the Canadian manifestation of those same philosophies to their interests?

[Livewire322]

A healthcare provider making judgement calls based on someone being fat, actually has a lot of utility. I haven't seen anything to suggest that fat people get less or inappropriate treatment based on their weight. I suspect you could find evidence to support the opposite. The papers I'm mentally referencing were noting stark differences in how Canadian aboriginals experienced the healthcare system in comparison with non-aboriginals. In many cases the differences were life and death.

There's now information available about racially orientated abuses within Canadian child services. To the point where it appears tthere has been widespread deliberate institutionalization of many FN children. The premise of course is that their mothers a too poor and dysfunctional to release the kids back to, not necessarily because of evidence to that affect, but simply because they are in a FN community.

The separation of children from their parents is a problem that should be solved. I agree.

I agree that a health care professional taking into account all factors when making a diagnosis is useful. Your dismissal of the problem was premature though. A recent example that has been in the media spotlight is:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.pono...t-shaming/amp/

Even a cursory google search reveals numerous cases as detailed above.

Perhaps the problem lies in the word I’ve bolded. If you ask me about my experiences in the dentists chair I’ll tell you that they were terrible, not because the dentist did a poor job, but because I hate needles. It’s purely subjective and therefore unreliable.


If the study took a group of doctors and did a blind study, wherein doctors are asked to diagnose patients without knowing their race and then comparing it to diagnoses where they did know their race I’d trust the data. Asking people about their experience in a system is a flawed method that will only yield flawed results.

[jassmine]

If the study took a group of doctors and did a blind study, wherein doctors are asked to diagnose patients without knowing their race and then comparing it to diagnoses where they did know their race I’d trust the data. Asking people about their experience in a system is a flawed method that will only yield flawed results.

You certainly haven't looked at any of the studies that I have posted many of which do contain data.
The vast majority of research conducted on humans cannot be blind or double blinds due to the ethical concerns of providing or not providing adequate treatment would entail. That's why you need to use more sophisticated statistical modelling when doing studies like that. But to negate the research that is conducted because it doesn't meet what you believe is essential in all studies is a silly argument akin to those that deny evolution or climate change.