Whitetail doe season... is it time to take end it?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So let me get this straight, are you saying they are not managing with science? I thought we were to just let them do their jobs because they are the professionals. Now you are saying that isn't true? I am soooo confused.

That is what the former bio told me. More than a few times requests were submitted to extend the mule deer buck season back to what it was before the die-off in 96/97(closing Nov 15). Every time it was denied. Not sure what buck to doe ratios were back then that he had to work with as flight count money wasn't really there. Local clubs even had to donate $40K just to get a moose survey done.

When the new bios arrived one tallied the road density and found Region 8 to be the highest in the province. Since that time low buck to doe ratios were found in a few MU's (Princeton, 8-08, 8-09-outside OMP)while other MU's were holding their own (8-11, Grandby, 8-23, 809-inside OMP).

Bottom line is that we need funding to keep up on inventories in a time-wise manner. A realistic goal would be to conduct complete regional surveys in a two year time span.

And yes, 'occasionally', there are people put in trusted positions that have agendas....like it or not.

SSS

[horshur]

When our preferences are being criticized by "political correctness" rather then science. Social surveys that conclude a large portion of the population does not approve any hunt except for meat. So hunter lobby groups try to "clean up" hunting by pressing for meat hunts to placate the antis pretending intellectualism.It is a very thin veil. Afraid that they will lose it if we don't behave they are actually agreeing with the anti. They have scruples. The appeal to science as a way of legitimizing what we do is fine. Directing morals on what we do not so much cause morals ain't science. So if hunters want something socially like a trophy season it is no less legitimate then what antis want cause it is a social preference. If guys want more Whitetail around so be it. Pissing on them over it while you placate antis who have no skin in the game is hypocritical. So much of the conflict on this board is from one Theses. A social study on declining hunter numbers. It has become a dogma. That dog is getting old.

[Wild one]

That is what the former bio told me. More than a few times requests were submitted to extend the mule deer buck season back to what it was before the die-off in 96/97(closing Nov 15). Every time it was denied. Not sure what buck to doe ratios were back then that he had to work with as flight count money wasn't really there. Local clubs even had to donate $40K just to get a moose survey done.

When the new bios arrived one tallied the road density and found Region 8 to be the highest in the province. Since that time low buck to doe ratios were found in a few MU's (Princeton, 8-08, 8-09-outside OMP)while other MU's were holding their own (8-11, Grandby, 8-23, 809-inside OMP).

Bottom line is that we need funding to keep up on inventories in a time-wise manner. A realistic goal would be to conduct complete regional surveys in a two year time span.

And yes, 'occasionally', there are people put in trusted positions that have agendas....like it or not.

SSS

I agree with you 100% that surveys are lacking I know of MUs that have not had a count in many years. This is one area that really needs funding.

[bownut]

As a avid RH born and raised in the Okanagan I was blessed to be a part of the glory days. Hunting not only fed us growing up, it taught us to appreciate the outdoors.
Through my 40 plus years I got to know many of the best hunters this Valley had to offer, there children carried the knowledge on and built from it. Some of the best
woodsmen, without the use of Google Earth, Bait Piles, Trail Cameras, and fancy rifles were able to successfully fill their tags every season. The skills that they have
can't be debated.
As I read these threads I can't believe how many so called experts can continue to think that the WT deer are still holding their own. These comments have no strength
with me. Why? Well when I bump into many of the old Knuckle Daggers they all have the same story. "IT'S THE SHITS OUT THERE!" This pretty much can be confirmed
by all those uncut tags floating around. I would tend to believe those individuals, than some guy posting his stories from outside the area. Most don't even have a clue what
good populations are.
Opportunity to do shit, is still Shit. If we don't start to see the (Sorry DANA) The Big Picture it going to be too late. Yes the seasons are only part of the problem, this is
the one time that I would have to agree with the sheep. Still harvest will continue to decline and I don't think we can afford to keep increasing the opportunity to fudge the numbers.
Our whole system needs a Reboot, starting with the Inventory System and Accountability. It's the only way to make a big change.

Again it's a game of give and take, if we can't learn to give, there be no take....

[338win mag]

As a avid RH born and raised in the Okanagan I was blessed to be a part of the glory days. Hunting not only fed us growing up, it taught us to appreciate the outdoors.
Through my 40 plus years I got to know many of the best hunters this Valley had to offer, there children carried the knowledge on and built from it. Some of the best
woodsmen, without the use of Google Earth, Bait Piles, Trail Cameras, and fancy rifles were able to successfully fill their tags every season. The skills that they have
can't be debated.
As I read these threads I can't believe how many so called experts can continue to think that the WT deer are still holding their own. These comments have no strength
with me. Why? Well when I bump into many of the old Knuckle Daggers they all have the same story. "IT'S THE SHITS OUT THERE!" This pretty much can be confirmed
by all those uncut tags floating around. I would tend to believe those individuals, than some guy posting his stories from outside the area. Most don't even have a clue what
good populations are.
Opportunity to do shit, is still Shit. If we don't start to see the (Sorry DANA) The Big Picture it going to be too late. Yes the seasons are only part of the problem, this is
the one time that I would have to agree with the sheep. Still harvest will continue to decline and I don't think we can afford to keep increasing the opportunity to fudge the numbers.
Our whole system needs a Reboot, starting with the Inventory System and Accountability. It's the only way to make a big change.

Again it's a game of give and take, if we can't learn to give, there be no take....

I agree with most of this post here bownut, I think its true,, but the ones who should be giving is the government, not hunters, why should we give anything up?.

[2chodi]

50/50 mix.

[HarryToolips]

I don't quite get all this the sky is falling stuff there's a lot of good news in the wildlife situation in BC right now. Sure there's some challenges but there always have been. Everyone likes the talk about the good old days but there's been spells in the not too distant past were things were a lot more dire. Things like the late 90s absolute crash of deer numbers in the south half, blacktail almost collapse on the north island late 80s and 90s, prior low grizzly populations in places etc. There's good things on the go right now, finally moose population issues in the north are being taken seriously and finally funded signifigantly with a bit of rebound in places. Elk are getting regular in the central interior where you couldn't find one to save your soul when I grew up there. Challenges but a lot of good too right now.

But this is BC and it is mid winter and there always MUST be something to fight about. So carry on, never mine me

Finally some positivity...

[HarryToolips]

Why is it you Okanagan guys are happy with white tail numbers five times higher than region 3 and numbers equal to your mule deer numbers.
Kootenays have 4 times as many white tail as mule deer with a one antlerless limit.
Region 3 has 1/5 as many whitetail and there trying to eradicate those with a two antlerless limit.
People actually think we should give more money to government to manage wildlife in this province.
GOOD LUCK with that.

They want to keep reg3 a MD stronghold.....if anyone uses common sense, and think about it for a moment, of course higher WT numbers will create more preds, just how more prime habitat = more food for ungulates and usually population growth, it would make sense that more food for preds would = more preds, which will = more prey on MD as well....as well as competition on winter range...I sure don't want the WT eradicated, I just want to see a healthy balanced ecosystem....I personally have killed 4 WT in the last 3 years in region 3- and I continue to see the same amount of WT year after year, in the same habitat, and the same numbers of WT on winter range....I think a 3 week doe season on a critter that by then is used to a month of hunting pressure by then is just fine, the majority of them adapt...

[HarryToolips]

I can assure you that there are indeed many areas of Region 3 where they are not in good numbers and are indeed struggling. The wolves have been just as hard on them as they have been on the muleys and the moose. Fawn recruitment being the biggest issue. If you actually spend some time looking at this time of year and all you see is mature does in a group or alone, you know you have an issue. We have pretty much stopped hunting cow And calf moose in these same areas. The mule deer doe LEH numbers have also seen a steady decline in allocations available each year. Sooo, why would we continue to allow a GOS on 2 whitetail does in the same areas? And Blacklab has a very valid point. If it is ok to have a GOS on 2 whitetail does where they are struggling (Region 3) why would it not be ok to have a GOS on 2 whitetail does where they are supposedly not struggling (Region 4 and 8 ) ? I just look at the compaining over the Interior Mule deer baglimit. It is looked as lost hunter opportunity and those in Region 3 are accused of as being Nimbys but....would it not make sense to counter the lost opportunity with a gained opportunity? If Region 8 has so many whitetails that are doing great, why not open them up like the current Region 3 seasons. 3 months and 2 deer baglimit (buck or doe) ? Would this not counter the over crowding issues that plague other Regions when 8 shuts down it's mule deer seasons super early? Wouldn't this keep hunters hunting their own back yards making 'meat' more economical? Would not hunters have a better hunting experience. And would not we be getting hunters utilizing a species that science says can withstand the added presure?

I agree, I'd be all for it.....that's too bad about the wolves, I'm guessing northern reg3? The part of region 3 I hunt is primarily the south, and wolves are not as big of an issue, whitetails are stable here from my observations...

[bownut]

I agree with most of this post here bownut, I think its true,, but the ones who should be giving is the government, not hunters, why should we give anything up?.

I too agree the Government needs to put the funding where it belongs. This has always been a problem with all Leaders. I dealt with the very same issues 25 years ago. Nothing has changed
to resolve the problems. Pick up any old minutes from any club in this province and you will see a common thread. Regional Clubs have been fighting the same battle for years, making the very same request
from Government, Forestry, First Nations, ect.
The fear of giving up something big or small is and always will be something that some refuse to accept, but remember this, every policy or change should be based on sustainability. If so then it's
all good, if not, why fool ourselves?

Talk about managing to zero.