Whitetail doe season... is it time to take end it?

[HarryToolips]

The density and population are very different in comparison.

The habitat in a large portion of 3 is also very different as well. The factor in many of region 3 WT populations consist of fragmented populations

These reasons for starters are why your comparison is a poor one. These reasons are also valid for why applying the same management as 8 is an issue when it comes to management that is positive for WT populations


Now stop blowing smoke and just say “ I am FD and I support the management plan to lower WT numbers to lower predation on MD”

That is your only valid stance

WT deer have proven time and again that they thrive in almost any kind of habitat, and the way that they have expanded their range in BC proves that...and the one good thing about blanket seasons I would think, is it would distribute hunter pressure quite a bit better....hunters for the most part, will prefer to go to the areas with greater hunter opportunity...and the harmonized seasons make a CO's job easier as well...

[HarryToolips]

I can attest to the numbers in Jasper. The migratory herd is basically dead. All the wildlife is located on the highway or in town. Why? Because it is safe. They have done the habitat approach. Burns. Lots of them. They have had numerous prescribed burns and a few natural burns. These burns are virtually void of wildlife. A little over 300 elk is currently stable only for one reason. PEOPLE! The elk are where the tourists are. They would much rather live with selfies and people reaching out to touch them than live in the wilderness areas where they will die. What do you think their mule deer populations look like. Virtually extinct if not for town and heavy tourist areas. What about sheep? Again, they would rather stand in the middle of the highway licking pavement in traffic jams than go where the wolves are going to eat them. Moose? Numbers are deplorable. Caribou? Not smart enough to hang out with tourists. Herd has declned and declined and declined. Grizzlies? They are also hitting the highways more than ever before. Why? Because they have learned that is where the calves are. Back when the Park had thousands of elk. Food was plenty for the grizzlies. Not so much now. All this beautiful pristine habitat with no critters. Begs the question, why are we even protecting it?

So the preds are a problem it sounds like, but when their numbers crash, the prey should eventually rebound, and then the natural cycle begins again....but without habitat, you have nowhere for the cycle to occur....they will occupy the habitat again one day Im sure......

[dana]

So the preds are a problem it sounds like, but when their numbers crash, the prey should eventually rebound, and then the natural cycle begins again....but without habitat, you have nowhere for the cycle to occur....they will occupy the habitat again one day Im sure......

That is the part of the science that those in the know aren't saying. No they won't crash. Why? Several reasons. The collars have shown the huge movement these dogs can and will make in a very short period of time. Jasper wolves are in the Cariboo. Cariboo wolves are in Jasper. The wolves head north, they head west and they head south. East is problematic because the soon as thet enter ranchland/farmland in Alberta, they are typically dealt with by locals. You now have Canadian wolves in the States and American wolves in Canada. So they don't starve, they just move. When you have slight growth in prey populations, boom, they are back. The idea that they starve to death is funny. They are dogs. They can go a long time with an empty belly and there is plenty of small game to keep their bellies happy when they are not killing large game. Hare, squirrel, beaver, grouse, all keep them tied over until the next larger critter comes along. Interesting that there are alpine areas here in Clearwater where deer once roamed that don't have much life at all. Even the marmot colonies have been destroyed. Pika seem to be the hold outs. They can get deep in the talus where the dogs can't. The illusion that the dogs are gone here in Clearwater is flat out wrong. The large packs are gone yes. The packs with 20 members have moved on. But there are still packs with 3 or 4 members holding their own eating whatever they can find. When our deer and moose have a good year, so do the wolves. Yes, there are remnants of deer and moose that have adapted to the dogs. Even that big old 7 point elk knew how to survive for years within the predator pit. But you can't grow herds on remnants without taking care of the one thing that is keeping them down.

[dana]

So what does this all mean for hunters? It means the hunting is going to be very tough. And gone are the days of liberal seasons. Shooting every last whitetail is not proper management. Conservative seasons are the way to go. The kick back in Region 3 is the start. 1 mule deer limit. I would suspect with the discussion generated within this thread and hunters talking to other hunters and to Region, whitetails will have some proposal changes in Region 3 for the next regulation rotation. Like I said pages and pages ago, doing it all in one Regulation rotation would have been too much. Like it or not, the good hunting of the bygone age is indeed that, gone. Conservative Regulation is our only tool in the tool box.

[blacklab]

WT deer have proven time and again that they thrive in almost any kind of habitat, and the way that they have expanded their range in BC proves that...and the one good thing about blanket seasons I would think, is it would distribute hunter pressure quite a bit better....hunters for the most part, will prefer to go to the areas with greater hunter opportunity...and the harmonized seasons make a CO's job easier as well...

If you keep talking like this FD is gonna kick you out of the choir.
This all I have been asking in any of the white tail threads I've started or commented on.
As you said and I have said many times we need to harmonize the seasons and bag limits.
You're right hunters will go the shortest distance for the most opportunity.
If you live in the lower mainland or the Island and have a weekend to hunt where would you go?
Region 3 you can cancel all 3 deer tags in one short trip.
Where would you go?

[blacklab]

I'll add one more detail.
What happened to the region 3 mule deer, a 25% increase in hunting pressure, brought about by an opportunity to take 2 white tail, any age any sex!

[Fisher-Dude]

If you keep talking like this FD is gonna kick you out of the choir.
This all I have been asking in any of the white tail threads I've started or commented on.
As you said and I have said many times we need to harmonize the seasons and bag limits.
You're right hunters will go the shortest distance for the most opportunity.
If you live in the lower mainland or the Island and have a weekend to hunt where would you go?
Region 3 you can cancel all 3 deer tags in one short trip.
Where would you go?

I'd go to region 3. According to you, I can cancel all 3 tags in one short trip. Must be a shitload of deer around for me to be able to punch all those tags in such a short time.

Thanks for the tip. I've been wasting my time in region 8 where I spend way too much time HUNTING deer, and only pop one or two all season.

[Walking Buffalo]

Re: wolves. Everyone recognizes they are and have been a problem. However, outside of caribou recovery areas, heli control is likely not going to happen. Eventually there will be an equilibrium balance of sorts and by acquiring funding to work on key areas for habitat enhancement. (Some areas are good but we can do better)

Again, wolf predation in the park. I would say the elk numbers were a bit naturally too high at the time pre- wolves. Things have balanced out a bit more. Jasper in previous years was like seeing 200 deer in the fields up in the peace. Sure it was great! But ..... like Yellowstone elk when wolves took off. No different. Or Oureas elk valley. I am sure he didn’t like it. But he accepted preds had a role and eventually elk will return. Maybe just not at numbers like in the past in his experience. Sort of like the guy who wants to see 50 whitetails running around in daylight.

The sooner people recognize and accept this the sooner everyone gets on board to work and push for funding to do what we can control. Tired of seeing all the reg changes over last 30 years that never achieved anything.

Since when are ecosystems ever in "equilibrium" or "balance"?
What does that even mean? Isn't this the same ideological mantra comprising the philosophy of preservation?

Nature has never has and never will work this way. ALL components of the physical universe evolve from constant change....

If We (humans) are going to try influence the creation of a natural balance (with "science" and "funding"), are we not actually keeping natural forces at bay in an effort to maintain our perception of what is Balanced? Are we not then loading the scale?


The point being, throwing our hands up and saying "can't do nothing about them wolves", and "don't worry, it will be all right, just accept the way it is", is no different than saying we must exterminate wolves. These are both human decisions on how we as a society decides what is right. As Nature works, neither is right nor wrong, they are just different.


More specifically. You suggest Yellowstone is an example of an wolf/elk equilibrium.

What about the elk/wolf (and cats/bears) natural balance in Alberta from Northern Jasper to the south end of Banff and east past the foothills?
Our hunting seasons have been reduced to the lowest possible harvest levels without closing the seasons. By all means, our Mountain and foothill Elk season should be closed. Or what happened before Lewis and Clarke entered the wastelands? Why were there absolutely NO ungulates for hundreds of miles?

This is Nature, events rarely follow the same course when so many paths are possible.


All I am saying is let's never accept this ideology that Nature is seeking and will achieve a balance.
It is wrong, and decisions based on this concept are thus likely to be wrong.

IF we want huntable populations of ungulates, we have to do what is needed to have them, not just accept what Nature will do in absence of our influence.

[bownut]

So what does this all mean for hunters? It means the hunting is going to be very tough. And gone are the days of liberal seasons. Shooting every last whitetail is not proper management. Conservative seasons are the way to go. The kick back in Region 3 is the start. 1 mule deer limit. I would suspect with the discussion generated within this thread and hunters talking to other hunters and to Region, whitetails will have some proposal changes in Region 3 for the next regulation rotation. Like I said pages and pages ago, doing it all in one Regulation rotation would have been too much. Like it or not, the good hunting of the bygone age is indeed that, gone. Conservative Regulation is our only tool in the tool box.

The sad thing is lately the sharpest tools in the box are the groups that have pushed for Opportunity in the past 10 years. With the use of all the under funded Data available they have been able to make all their proposals seem
sustainable. Clubs throughout the province should pull up the minutes of the BCWF Resolutions and look and see if there's a common thread in all of this. Maybe some of our debates and declines will be a little clearer.
When anyone speaks about Conservative Regulations the big fear factors hits the posts, "We will never get it back",and "It won't work", "Numbers are great". Could these be the same individuals involved in all the
our increased opportunity and expanded seasons?
Unless our WT"s have been given spiked collars to survive the increase in predation, I can't see how they could be doing so great. Also Alternative Prey Studies just does't carry well when wolves are involved.
Line of sight BS is just another example of flaws in our observations, Wolves can out run anything short range or long.
Our Regulations don't even come close to reflecting our present state of affairs.

[BCrams]

You were over thinking my post. Never did say let nature take its course. Short end of it is, heli control or wolf control most likely won’t happen. Focusing on habitat allows ungulates a higher survivability in a pred landscape as has been researched. Now in many areas under discussion in these posts, , if we can convince houndsmen to allow a higher cat harvest while working on habitat, mule deer numbers may have opportunity to rebound.


Ending elk season isn’t going to bring them back. 30 yrs of reg changes in BC especially moose has shown that.