Whitetail doe season... is it time to take end it?

[Bugle M In]

I don't quite get all this the sky is falling stuff there's a lot of good news in the wildlife situation in BC right now. Sure there's some challenges but there always have been. Everyone likes the talk about the good old days but there's been spells in the not too distant past were things were a lot more dire. Things like the late 90s absolute crash of deer numbers in the south half, blacktail almost collapse on the north island late 80s and 90s, prior low grizzly populations in places etc. There's good things on the go right now, finally moose population issues in the north are being taken seriously and finally funded signifigantly with a bit of rebound in places. Elk are getting regular in the central interior where you couldn't find one to save your soul when I grew up there. Challenges but a lot of good too right now.

But this is BC and it is mid winter and there always MUST be something to fight about. So carry on, never mine me

I think this about sums it up.
If majority of Resident Hunters want a 1 mule deer limit, that's fine by me, and if the majority want to leave as is, fine by me as well.
I would like to see Regions have similar openings and closing, where possible, because I do agree, that some areas see way too much traffic when another area close by is shut down.
So between 1 MD limit, and seasons aligning better, that should correct some of the crowding issues.
As far as seeing more ungulates, yup, we will need to address preds in the province, or expect more decline until things swing the other way.
Changing up some of the Post Logging practices also needs to be looked at again, and starting to burn of the dead wood around the province, instead of trying to log between it, and doing burns in a controlled manor instead of having huge evacuations, needs to be addressed as well.
If we all can get a push on, together, for things to go in the direction I said above, I think we will be okay, and maybe start to see some hunting improvement, and some folks may see a few more mature bodies walking around.

[dana]

Dana,
I wanted to ask you this for awhile, before you left this site for a few years.
Before you left, didn't you say tat the Bios in R3 had their shit together??
That is was R5 that was doing a crappy job?
Just curious if you still feel that way, as I know your tune has changed on "seeing big bucks", to now, that no buck can get big enough due to it being taken out before it has a chance.
(not sure if that is because you feel it is do to the "any buck" season, or if it is due to the "4pt restriction")
But, I am curious where you stud on thing s before you left and if anything differs now?
Do agree 100% however, that wolves need to go in R3, as well as R5 and province wide.
I was already seeing the issue develop before you left this site years ago.

IIRC what I wanted then was unified seasons for all Interior Regions. I was told 'impossible' because the science that was good for Region 3 was bad for Region 8. You see those calling for 'opportunity' only want it in other Regions and they quickly become Nimby's if 'opportunity' is suggested in their own backyard. 'No!!! those are my deer! I can't have an out of Region Hunter hunt here! It will be a Slaughter!' But, when they leave their home Regions and hunt other Regions, 'Screw You! I am hunting for the Opprtunity! Damn you if you take this away from me'. Region 3 could support a rut hunt but Region 8 couldn't. Region 5 gave a little with the peak of the rut shut down but a late rut hunt available. This just made the hunters bounce from one Region to the next following the closures. And I still believe most of those that do it are 'wannabe trophy hunters' who can't hold their trigger fingers when an average muley is standing in front of them. Put the camera lens on the nose and stand back with your arms stretched out and you are an instant 'big buck killa'. Then go to another Region and do it all over again. Those are the guys currently whinning about the baglimit. They now are either going to have to hold their tags and risk being skunked like true trophy hunters or they are going to only get one average buck that if anyone who has been around the block a time or 2 will know exactly the game they are playing. Region 3 has done a good job given the fact they were left out to dry by the other Regions. They stood their ground hoping they could weather the storm. The 'dog lovers' had their hands tied and they couldn't really go any further than what they did when it comes to NBL and NCS on wolves. The hunters have now spoken. They want an end to the overcrowding. Region 3 doesn't want to loose the rut hunt so there is only one solution. If out of Region hunters want to hunt the rut, they are going to have to hold their tag and risk not cutting it. Choose your poison. in my opinion, Region 3 is making a solid move in the right direction. Season changes to match those of Region 8 is the only other option and that would be an end of the rut hunt. My views on that have changed. In the past, I did not want to loose the rut hunt. Now, i could care less. The hunting is so poor in the late season, I personally would be fine in it ended Nov 10 like Region 8. Personally think they could go with a Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck Season. Nov 1-10 4 point or better season with a 1 buck Interior limit and life would be made pretty simple. It has nothing to do with saving deer and everything to do with giving hunters a better hunt experience by eliminating over crowding. The idea of growing big bucks only works in the glory days of low pred numbers. Hunting seasons, be it Any Buck or 4 point or better do nothing to grow big bucks. Don't get caught in the trap of lies that FD puts out there. I have never looked at 4 point or better seasons as ways to grow big bucks. You grow big bucks with age. If all your deer are eaten in their first few years, you will have no big bucks.

[Wild one]

As far as WT, I don't hate them at all, but I don't want to see MD suffer in population size due to WT expansion.
R3 has always been traditionally MD, a lot of it anyways.

Funny thing is, and hearing that Preds like Cougar, like to follow WT movements.
When I think about it, I 1st started to see WT,s in a few of those MU's in R3, and then, I started to see the Wolves.
Starting to wonder now, if that is why the wolves showed up?
I also get the fact that as a pack of Wolves get too big, there has to be a split off, and a new pack has to find new territory.
Wolves also showed up as the logging became, lets just say, bigger operations then once existed.

Would be curious to see the study showing preds following WT

BCs management plan is biased on MD being the primary prey of cougar and WT being a secondary. MD see a higher % of predation from cougar then WT.

With MD being the primary prey would it not be reasonable to assume this is the species they follow and WT are secondary opurtunity?

As for wolves all studies exception being Vancouver Island show deer being a lower on the list when it comes to being a prey species. Exceptions come in depending on prey species in the area. My memory seems to tell me WT are again lower on the prey scale then MD here as well. Last part may be off and need to look it up again to be 100%

So why are wolves following WT when they have proffered prey species?

So why are predators following WT instead of their proffered prey species?

The one fact I do know is WT are not effected by predators as hard as many other ungulate species

[.264winmag]

I am sorry but really you want change because you’re skills are lacking with archery gear(even with Xbow allowed)

You have a really long rifle season giving a ton of opportunity and open during the rut which increases avialible tactics and lowers bucks caution level. No matter the weapon I would take the rut over late season

If you want to improve your skills ask away. Truth of the matter is if you use the right tactics with WT range is not an issue their flaws in their habits can easily be exploited

Your issue is a tactic issue not a season issue want to improve your skills start a thread and ask or be friend a mentor with close range WT skills

Knowledge is free

Thanks, appreciate the offer. I am a rifle hunter primarily, poked one little wt buck with a xbow. Taken many deer in my life inside bow range. I can appreciate what it takes to become a proficient archery hunter, and it includes putting in time and passing on opportunities you otherwise wouldn't with a smokepole. I generally am lucky to get a few days away from camp/work to hunt per month. When I get that chance I'm giving myself the best chance to fill the freezer. I'll get a vertical bow someday, get really good at shooting it and if I'm lucky poke some game with it. Till then I'll keep burning powder, works for me.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

IIRC what I wanted then was unified seasons for all Interior Regions. I was told 'impossible' because the science that was good for Region 3 was bad for Region 8. You see those calling for 'opportunity' only want it in other Regions and they quickly become Nimby's if 'opportunity' is suggested in their own backyard. 'No!!! those are my deer! I can't have an out of Region Hunter hunt here! It will be a Slaughter!' But, when they leave their home Regions and hunt other Regions, 'Screw You! I am hunting for the Opprtunity! Damn you if you take this away from me'. Region 3 could support a rut hunt but Region 8 couldn't. Region 5 gave a little with the peak of the rut shut down but a late rut hunt available. This just made the hunters bounce from one Region to the next following the closures. And I still believe most of those that do it are 'wannabe trophy hunters' who can't hold their trigger fingers when an average muley is standing in front of them. Put the camera lens on the nose and stand back with your arms stretched out and you are an instant 'big buck killa'. Then go to another Region and do it all over again. Those are the guys currently whinning about the baglimit. They now are either going to have to hold their tags and risk being skunked like true trophy hunters or they are going to only get one average buck that if anyone who has been around the block a time or 2 will know exactly the game they are playing. Region 3 has done a good job given the fact they were left out to dry by the other Regions. They stood their ground hoping they could weather the storm. The 'dog lovers' had their hands tied and they couldn't really go any further than what they did when it comes to NBL and NCS on wolves. The hunters have now spoken. They want an end to the overcrowding. Region 3 doesn't want to loose the rut hunt so there is only one solution. If out of Region hunters want to hunt the rut, they are going to have to hold their tag and risk not cutting it. Choose your poison. in my opinion, Region 3 is making a solid move in the right direction. Season changes to match those of Region 8 is the only other option and that would be an end of the rut hunt. My views on that have changed. In the past, I did not want to loose the rut hunt. Now, i could care less. The hunting is so poor in the late season, I personally would be fine in it ended Nov 10 like Region 8. Personally think they could go with a Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck Season. Nov 1-10 4 point or better season with a 1 buck Interior limit and life would be made pretty simple. It has nothing to do with saving deer and everything to do with giving hunters a better hunt experience by eliminating over crowding. The idea of growing big bucks only works in the glory days of low pred numbers. Hunting seasons, be it Any Buck or 4 point or better do nothing to grow big bucks. Don't get caught in the trap of lies that FD puts out there. I have never looked at 4 point or better seasons as ways to grow big bucks. You grow big bucks with age. If all your deer are eaten in their first few years, you will have no big bucks.

Our former bio here in Region 8 saw a dumb muley buck in the rut and came to the conclusion that all mule deer in Region 8 are dumb. It had nothing to do with the Nimby hunters in this region.

As far as Region 5 goes, the RM there is kind of an anti hunter.

[dana]

Our former bio here in Region 8 saw a dumb muley buck in the rut and came to the conclusion that all mule deer in Region 8 are dumb. It had nothing to do with the Nimby hunters in this region.

As far as Region 5 goes, the RM there is kind of an anti hunter.

So let me get this straight, are you saying they are not managing with science? I thought we were to just let them do their jobs because they are the professionals. Now you are saying that isn't true? I am soooo confused.

[Wild one]

Our former bio here in Region 8 saw a dumb muley buck in the rut and came to the conclusion that all mule deer in Region 8 are dumb. It had nothing to do with the Nimby hunters in this region.

As far as Region 5 goes, the RM there is kind of an anti hunter.

So region 5 rut closure had nothing to do with MUs ratios falling shy of the 20% goal as suggested?

Google can find the data I am speaking of and it is suggested that is the reason for the rut closure in 5

So either you are suggesting data was falsified in the study or you believe steps to raise ratios to the 20% goal were too much?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So region 5 rut closure had nothing to do with MUs ratios falling shy of the 20% goal as suggested?

Google can find the data I am speaking of and it is suggested that is the reason for the rut closure in 5

So either you are suggesting data was falsified in the study or you believe steps to raise ratios to the 20% goal were too much?

IIRC the numbers were a hair under 20:100... and the flight patterns weren't what they were supposed to be.

[Wild one]

IIRC the numbers were a hair under 20:100... and the flight patterns weren't what they were supposed to be.

So you don’t support the steps he chose to take according to the ratios the counts showed

And you don’t feel the count was sufficiently done

That is a fair opinion on the situation

But this brings up can we trust or counts, management choices, or science being used to manage BCs wildlife?

[Mulehahn]

When was the last time you hunted or hung trail cams near Logan lake in 3-18 or 19.
I lived there until last year and I'll call BS to anyone saying they are expanding. The fields you see them in will have a no hunting sign on every second fence post.

Late season fishing trip with a side hunting trip to Logan lake area in 2016. Now this primarily consisted of just a short trips after a morning of fishing. Found 2 herds of does and a few bucks. Nothing big but they were out there. My trail camera's are on my property. About 25 acrea that is close to crown land. Had 3 does that lived there all summer and a few bucks just moving through from the crown land. Biggest one was a basket 4 point.

Dana, you are right, never really spent anytime in those MUs. Can't saw if the there never was a population, if there was a sizable population for the past 50 years populatuon and it collapsed, or 25 years ago there was none, some moved in, and now are gone again. All would require different approaches. Some areas just don't support certain species. As for the low 7s, I don't really hunt there. But help on a friends family ranch. You are right, never seen a whitetail there but after about a 30 year absence the elk have come back to the point they are a nuisance rather than a novelty. And that is with the wolves, god so many wolves, around.