Whitetail doe season... is it time to take end it?

[Bugle M In]

How about enlightening this member of the geriatric crowd.
Where do white tail go when they become nocturnal? Do they have dens like coyotes or do the roost in trees like turkeys?
How do they not leave tracks in the snow once they enter their nocturnal phase?

If whitetail aren't supposed to be in region 3, why are they here?
Moose were't here either till the 30"s. Should we try to wipe them out as well to save some Caribou?
Oh, I forgot our widelife managers already tried that one.

No they don't sleep in dens.
I guess the question is, do you want WT's at the expense of losing MD??
I think, overall in NA, there is a concern of MD being out competed by WT, which could eventually lead to the demise of MD.
That, in my opinion, is how you have to look at it, especially in Lowland, Flat areas, say like Cache Creek, Kamloops etc.
Terrain varies here in BC, like comparing areas like Cache Creek to Golden for example.
MD can survive way up high, in sub alpine, but they do need to come down for a time during winter.
WT's generally stay low (although I have seen them moving high, especially with those way up high cut blocks).
What I am saying is, there are some areas where MD will roam, that WT wont, but come winter, that changes.
The fact that WT have expanded should be evidence enough, that for the most part, simply said, WT are okay, and they aren't at risk of being over hunted.
But, it is a matter of opinion I suppose....do you want to hunt more WT areas in the future, and lose MD?
Or, do you want MD to stay where they traditionally have been, and help them exist way into the future??
Do you want to hunt MD in Cache Creek or WT's one day in that same area??

[.264winmag]

[QUOTE=blacklab;1975106]How about enlightening this member of the geriatric crowd.
Where do white tail go when they become nocturnal? Do they have dens like coyotes or do the roost in trees like turkeys?
How do they not leave tracks in the snow once they enter their nocturnal phase?

They levitate, of course. Everybody knows that!

[Fisher-Dude]

Just choose to pick the theories that fit what meet your opinion but honestly most are guilty of this

The truth is there are studies/theories that support and discredit BCs management

The 10% ratio on mule deer is a big one only state that has any support I have found is Washington but they still manage at 15% min adult buck goal for winter counts and other areas a goal of over double that. Most areas have management plans with 25%+ min on mule deer ratios

Only support in the study in Washington was when a population of 10% was studied no drop in overall population happened showing possibility of stability but no increase in population under this ratio

Odd study found in region 5 here in BC in the past was showing past changes to regs were because many MUs were falling shy of the goal of 20% min ratio in region 5

Strange I remember a bunch of people on this forum blaming GOs and hunters wanting restrictions and this was all special intrest group agenda. No talk of counts showing ratios that fell shy of goals set by BC bios. No talk that the rut closure and other changes were implemented because of ratios falling short of management goals


Like I said a guy looks into things you find contradictions to basically everything and scientific facts to support it

Do we have agendas being pushed with BCs management seems odds are pretty good

We don't manage mule deer to 10%.

We manage to 20%.

We can escape conservation concerns at 10% as we'll still have >90% pregnancy rates.

The 20:100 ratio is designed to have sufficient sperm supply plus representative specimens in each age category that also encompasses non-consumptive needs such as wildlife photography and wildlife viewing opportunities.

[Wild one]

We don't manage mule deer to 10%.

We manage to 20%.

We can escape conservation concerns at 10% as we'll still have >90% pregnancy rates.

The 20:100 ratio is designed to have sufficient sperm supply plus representative specimens in each age category that also encompasses non-consumptive needs such as wildlife photography and wildlife viewing opportunities.

Example of region 5 shows I clearly acknowledge the 20% goal

[blacklab]

No they don't sleep in dens.
I guess the question is, do you want WT's at the expense of losing MD??
I think, overall in NA, there is a concern of MD being out competed by WT, which could eventually lead to the demise of MD.
That, in my opinion, is how you have to look at it, especially in Lowland, Flat areas, say like Cache Creek, Kamloops etc.
Terrain varies here in BC, like comparing areas like Cache Creek to Golden for example.
MD can survive way up high, in sub alpine, but they do need to come down for a time during winter.
WT's generally stay low (although I have seen them moving high, especially with those way up high cut blocks).
What I am saying is, there are some areas where MD will roam, that WT wont, but come winter, that changes.
The fact that WT have expanded should be evidence enough, that for the most part, simply said, WT are okay, and they aren't at risk of being over hunted.
But, it is a matter of opinion I suppose....do you want to hunt more WT areas in the future, and lose MD?
Or, do you want MD to stay where they traditionally have been, and help them exist way into the future??
Do you want to hunt MD in Cache Creek or WT's one day in that same area??

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

[labguy]

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

Not to mention the trigger happy morons that can't tell the two species apart and shoot the first doe they see and then say ooopsss...thought it was a whitetail because it had a white ass....

[Wild one]

Not to mention the trigger happy morons that can't tell the two species apart and shoot the first doe they see and then say ooopsss...thought it was a whitetail because it had a white ass....

See COs bust that type in a check stop in 8-14

At least they got caught but this type should not be hunting wt doe season or not

[Fisher-Dude]

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

We get it, you don't like hunters who aren't local to where you live. Happens in other regions, too, so you're not the only guy.

But that has nothing to do with game management.

[Bugle M In]

I think if you'll look at some of the more recent information out there, you'll find that theory is so much BS.
Why can the two species survive in other jurisdictions but not in BC's region 3?
The attraction of a 2 antlerless whitetail opportunity within 2 hours of the lower mainland is the worse thing to happen to region 3 mule deer. Remember the any buck mule deer season is concurrent with the antlerless white tail season.
Go have a look at the rational for the lower provincial and region 3 bag limit change.

So, if I understand you correctly, because of the WT opportunity, more hunters head up to hunt them, but then at th same time, they still have an MD tag, and guess what, they end up taking a MD, rather then the WT that they originally were going up there in the 1st place.
If I am understanding you correctly, then I have to disagree.
Even if there were no WT inside that 2 to even 4 hr drive, hunters would still be going up to R3.
Yes, there may be a little more traffic, but I doubt to the point of disaster for MD populations.
Worse thing that ever impacted R3, was when R5 closed for 10 days.
That would be the 1st I would want to see corrected...by getting these season to align thru out the province.
If you want to see crowding, just close 1 area, and watch another area get over run if you ask me.
As for the BS of MD and WT not being able to cohabitate the same area.
Yes, it is possible, but I suspect you need to control WT #'s more effectively then one ever would have to with MD.
The other question is, why are there so many Bio reports, from my understanding, stating the MD #'s can drop due to WT expansion.
It's not like it is just 1 member on this site spewing this so called BS...that it's seems to have merit in NA by many who study this exact issue.
I am just respectfully trying to give you my view of what I see, and what I have heard or read.
I have seen no issue in R3 with the amount of MD bucks, and honestly, have seen the same #'s for a lot of years now.
Biggest difference is lack of snow, and the deer just aren't concentrated like in the past come Nov, so it gives the appearance that there are less deer, but, they are just more spread out then the old day norms IMO.
And, the 2 biggest bucks I have ever seen in my life were just taken last season, so there are some hogs around, and some who really gave it figured out, will tell you there still are hogs out there.
The next issue is still the wolves, and they are new too many of the R3 area, and that is what concerns me the most, which in that case, hunting isn't the factor if MD #'s suddenly drop.
But again, back to the WT...do you want to end up possibly just hunting WT one day??
What if those Bios are correct???
There's only so much food on the landscape at present, so it can only feed so many mouths, and feeding more is impossible, so, do you want to feed WT's or MD's in R3.??

[blacklab]

We get it, you don't like hunters who aren't local to where you live. Happens in other regions, too, so you're not the only guy.

But that has nothing to do with game management.

Typical comeback from FD.
I have no problem with hunters from any where. Like I said have a look at the rational for the mule deer bag limit changes. By their own admission there has been a notable increase in hunters in region 3. This increase seems to coincide with the increased white tail opportunity.