Whitetail doe season... is it time to take end it?

[Walking Buffalo]

Yes familiar with all of this

Alberta WT populations are well beyond BCs and also a varied management system ranging from highly restrictive to extremely liberal. You are missing lots of info when using Alberta’s WT harvest as a comparison. Management for WT in Alberta is very population oriented

Look into the MUs in the 400s see how there managed and there WT populations.

Liberal WT harvest in strong WT population and doe harvest is a good thing. I am a supporter of it but liberal harvest opportunity on WT in low populations I am not

CWD management in eastern Alberta a lot of it is to limit populations at risk of CWD not because it’s present . Look into where it is actually present and documented cases

Nothing wrong with comparison from out side BC but apply it correctly population wise and show the varied management according to populations

For the most part, yes. However the orientation is usually related to population control, rarely to increase populations.
There just is no need.

Our 400's are becoming a predator pit wasteland. Elk are near extinction, same with moose and Mulies. WT are hanging on.
The 300's and 500's are a better comparison today. Elk, moose and mulies are experiencing population crashes, Wt are doing fine.
Bios decided to try the scorched earth theory to starve wolves, excessive moose tags and double supplemental WT doe tags.
We still have wolves and whitetails....

We should note that Alberta, that panacea of deer breeding, has 40% of its land privately held, with hunting at the discretion of the landowner, and with huge tracts of land under agriculture providing a smorgasbord of deer feed.

Compare that to BC, which has 6% of land held privately, with the other 94% held by the Crown for purposes other than growing crops that feed sojourning wildlife.

Is it any wonder that the harvest and management regimes are different between the two jurisdictions?

This is a nearsighted comment.
There are plenty of Alberta management units that do not fit your description.
There are many areas comparable to BC.

My friend they are coming! I was first waving the flag back in the mid 2000's. No one listened. I was mocked and ridiculed. They came and they came and they came. For numerous years I believed we could weather the storm as I still saw mature wildlife. Then, in an instant, that belief was replaced by an gut wrenching realization that I was very very wrong. The collapse had taken years but it really wasn't dramatic until it was complete. Please, heed my words, and get working on those dogs. Now!

Our experience in Alberta reflects this image. When these dogs become established, Wolf management takes years of effort before significant effects are realized with higher prey populations. It is much better to strangle the problem before it takes a big bite off our plate.

[HarryToolips]

Can someone provide a count for the koots showing an increase in MD numbers?

I am not doubting the 2 members observations. Just looking for confirmation of these observations

Even with this WT management proven a failure elsewhere I am open to the possibility under the correct habitat conditions it may hold merit. Many parts of BC with this WT management plan MD populations are still declining

Under habitat of hilly heavy jack pine forest( far from farmland or prairie FD) on the edge of the foothills it failed. Predator numbers high as well. It’s fact it failed here

So is it working in the koots and what factors are playing a roll in its success here when it’s a failure elsewhere?

Is there other factors why MD are increasing if numbers show an increase?

With many parts of the koots holding habitat better suited to MD I am open to this being a factor creating a difference between success and failure.

Always said habitat would be the big factor on the future range of these two species

So can someone here provide facts of an increase of MD in at least part of the koot?

So FD I can give example of this management plans failure and I am still open to facts showing it successful under the right habitat conditions. Can you prove it successful I am listening?

Look under region 4 mule deer....
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...t_18_Final.pdf

[HarryToolips]

I would shoot a dry doe if i seen one . but some of those fawns that come from twins and triplets in oct. still have spots . so what are you going to shoot a 50lb fawn or the mother .
i went and hunted in the yahk in oct.i am not a road hunter so i put on many miles . seen maybe 60 does and fawns could have shot some . but most were on the dead run . i kinda wondered how many doe`s and fawns were wounded by guys shooting at running deer .

I was in the same area and saw the same thing, in that neck of the woods they ain't hurting thats for sure..

[HarryToolips]

When I have cam evidence and field observations, in my local WT area, I will support your claims.
That is not the case to date however.

I seldom find a doe without a fawn, most have twins.
I run 20 plus cams and I am in the field several days a week dana, so the intel is pretty solid.

Wolves are new arrivals here and are scratching in this area.
I will be the first to wave the flag when I see recruitment failing.
I will be last to jump to conclusions.

Wolves are here.
They are sticking to the 3000 ft + line for the most part.
We have bighorn sheep here.
There lies a major concern.

Will see how this plays out.

Consistent with my observations as well....bu Dana is right, we need to start knocking wolves...

[Dannybuoy]

Look under region 4 mule deer....
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...t_18_Final.pdf

best example of managing to zero ..... moose region 4 stable ?? Mule deer region 4 stable ?? Hahahaha .... thats some funny stuff right there .... lower the standard to achieve the goal .

[Fisher-Dude]

Region 4 mule deer are listed as stable to increasing.

That's far preferable to what happened to them during the years of limited whitetail hunting.

Harry actually took the time to read and understand the figures. Others should do the same.

[walks with deer]

the north thompson has very low new recruits..same with the peace and a lot of region 8...
niche pockets are still holding mature animals but fawns and calves are hard to find.
line beetle didnt help with no cover left and roads every where...i do not understand the cycle but i think pred numbers are actually going down as are ungulate population province wide is hittin a crash.

[Ourea]

My friend they are coming! I was first waving the flag back in the mid 2000's. No one listened. I was mocked and ridiculed. They came and they came and they came. For numerous years I believed we could weather the storm as I still saw mature wildlife. Then, in an instant, that belief was replaced by an gut wrenching realization that I was very very wrong. The collapse had taken years but it really wasn't dramatic until it was complete. Please, heed my words, and get working on those dogs. Now!

They are here.
What I find interesting is that the new influx of wolves don't seem to use lower elevations ......yet.

[Ourea]

the north thompson has very low new recruits..same with the peace and a lot of region 8...
niche pockets are still holding mature animals but fawns and calves are hard to find.
line beetle didnt help with no cover left and roads every where...i do not understand the cycle but i think pred numbers are actually going down as are ungulate population province wide is hittin a crash.

Your comment flies in the face of endless evidence, field observation and airiel counts.
Preds are increasing, particularly wolves.

An average hike for me goes like this when checking cams....
Coyote tracks......cougar tracks.....wolf tracks....some deer tracks.
That dynamic was different 4 yrs ago.

[dana]

Your comment flies in the face of endless evidence, field observation and airiel counts.
Preds are increasing, particularly wolves.

An average hike for me goes like this when checking cams....
Coyote tracks......cougar tracks.....wolf tracks....some deer tracks.
That dynamic was different 4 yrs ago.

Ourea, i remember several years ago you getting a ton of wolf action on your trail cams for elk in the Koots. Just curious of what things are like there now. How did the elk fare? Did the wolves finally move on? Last I recall you were still finding trophy bulls but most had flipped to being nocturnal. Did they finally flip back to daylight allowing for good hunting again? I have been out of the loop for several years now. Curious how things turned out for ya.