Mule Deer Restrictions

[HarryToolips]

Sometimes I just wonder if the real underlying issue is that we have just "over developed" in some many parts/regions" of BC now, and we are starting to see the reals problems from that now.
Look at the "Cull" issue that I now be brought up in Wine Country, by the growers etc.
When you think about it, these deer have to go somewhere come winter, and they can't just be expected to survive "up top" in the snow belt all winter long.
So, where can they go....nothing but down to their "traditional wintering grounds"...but, now it Vineyards and Golf Courses, and all sorts of development now.
And now, we are going to possibly "Cull them"???, because they are now a nuisance??
Funny thing is, it kind of reminds me about the Zone X Elk in the EK.
It's already been shown that these elk are going back up to the high country come summer, and although the reason are unknown, much speculation is on the possibility that they are avoiding wolves etc.
But again, zone x was really nothing more then a "Cull" as well, and was basically brought up due to "land owners"
(maybe ICBC as well?) complaints etc.
All these beasts are trying to do is survive, especially come winter, and to avoid Preds.

So, are we doing to great disservice now to these creatures now, by not having better habitat, and that we have basically over run their grounds?
Are we basically reducing them to nothing because of that?, not hunting.
If that is the real problem, then I just don't see a 1 MD limit going to help anything, IMO.
We aren't really dealing with the true issue of why their numbers aren't increasing.
Yes we have wolves all over, and they are an issue, but is the real issue that there just is no where for them to go any longer??...wolves up high, and human sprawl down low.
Just remember, we don't build towns and cities on the highest mountain peaks, we build them in the areas with the least snow fall.
I think the real issue is just "too many people" in the province now (not hunters, as that hasn't changed).
When you think about it, how many people lived in this province in 1970, a million?, and how many hunted, maybe 10%, so 100,000.
Now the province is what, doubled or tripled in population, yet we have the same hunter #'s today, so that hasn't increased, and if anything, what % of hunters do we have today per population here, maybe 5%?

So, I ask myself, is it all for nothing when it comes to Regs such as this?
Even if they increased, are they just to be culled off anyways?
Can we actually "grow more deer/ungulates", and will they have somewhere to go?
What is "urban sprawl" going to be in 20 years time??how many more people??

What are we doing to "ensure" that these creatures have somewhere to go come winter time, and not be in
"People's Way"????

This is exactly right, especially in reg 8....

[HarryToolips]

FD would be better then me on this part, but below is a snippet from 2013.
I doubt more tags are purchased now, but I could be wrong.
What it does show is, there has been no "increase" in Numbers, more then it was in 1980-82, at it's highest point.
So, think about it, BC population has probably doubled since the 70's, but hunters are still the same then it was back then, so, in other words, we don't have more hunters running around then at any other time in our history.
So, again I ask, why do we concern ourselves with hunters being the problem, thus managing just using regs like always.
link below:
http://www.vancouversun.com/technolo...298/story.html

I agree that hunting is not the primary issue, however, what I do believe is our extra access has allowed hunting to have more of an impact - the food created from logging is good for the ungulates, but we have not de-activated enough spur roads...IMO if we de-activated more, not all, but more spur roads, and got urban development under control, and preds under control, our hunting would in time, become awesome and we'd all be happy..

[Bugle M In]

If the hunter numbers were broke down to where they are actually hunting it may show that they have an effect, just going with
how many hunters and tags are purchased in B.C. doesn't really show much.
If the population has doubled since the 70s then that goes back to the urban sprawl, user group issues.

Nope, it doesn't break it down, so yes, you right, it doesn't tell us who sees how much etc.
Obviously, LM's on weekend only hunts will hit areas closer to Vancouver.
But, then again, locals have more opportunity to put in more time, closer to home etc.
In the end, there still hasn't been a growth in hunter #'s, but population in the province has increased.
So IMO, more user groups due to population growth has definitely effected things like I stated in that long post
about culling deer in vineyards....lets face it, that has definitely been a huge change in the landscape since the 70's, amongst all the other "uses" that have been in development due to population growth.
None of that could have "benefitted" wildlife, but most definitely, "effected" wildlife in reduced areas to survive thru the winter.
So unless something is done to correct urban sprawl, I doubt we will ever see a "growth" in wildlife pops.
More then likely, just further declines cause nobody is doing anything to really make a difference, just passing the blame on to hunters, and thus further restrictions in a useless cause.

[Bugle M In]

I agree that hunting is not the primary issue, however, what I do believe is our extra access has allowed hunting to have more of an impact - the food created from logging is good for the ungulates, but we have not de-activated enough spur roads...IMO if we de-activated more, not all, but more spur roads, and got urban development under control, and preds under control, our hunting would in time, become awesome and we'd all be happy..

One thing about logging, IMO.
Some is good, as we all have seen "the game" in the cutblocks, and find them great areas to hunt for them etc.
But, like greasing the front linkages on your vehicle...a little is good, but more isn't!
I have hunted some areas where there is so much logging, that it probably made it worse.
I understand the "cut it, before the beetle kills it", but, if logging was that great for wildlife, and to the extent that it happening in some areas, there should be "tons of game".
And that's not the case, and speaking to some FN in one area, they feel it made it way worse.
Lets not forget, game has survived for years in mature growth, but yes, they need new areas with young growth or new growth, from things like fires, and yes, logging can create that to point.
But, it's not helping the way its going right now.
And yes, then there are all those extra roads every 500m it seems these days.
But again, where can the game go come winter?....to town? seems like they are not wanted there either.
I am all for culling when it is due to "over population", but if it is just due to "urban sprawl", and these creatures just needing to hang out in minimal snow levels, who is to blame for that, and what is going to be done to fix that?

[stan]

Good points for sure . Pine beetle logging up top and subdivisions down low.

[HarryToolips]

One thing about logging, IMO.
Some is good, as we all have seen "the game" in the cutblocks, and find them great areas to hunt for them etc.
But, like greasing the front linkages on your vehicle...a little is good, but more isn't!
I have hunted some areas where there is so much logging, that it probably made it worse.
I understand the "cut it, before the beetle kills it", but, if logging was that great for wildlife, and to the extent that it happening in some areas, there should be "tons of game".
And that's not the case, and speaking to some FN in one area, they feel it made it way worse.
Lets not forget, game has survived for years in mature growth, but yes, they need new areas with young growth or new growth, from things like fires, and yes, logging can create that to point.
But, it's not helping the way its going right now.
And yes, then there are all those extra roads every 500m it seems these days.
But again, where can the game go come winter?....to town? seems like they are not wanted there either.
I am all for culling when it is due to "over population", but if it is just due to "urban sprawl", and these creatures just needing to hang out in minimal snow levels, who is to blame for that, and what is going to be done to fix that?

Yup I hear ya, everything in moderation...

[358mag]

Good points for sure . Pine beetle logging up top and subdivisions down low.

Trouble is the subdivisions are get up to the pine beetle level

[stan]

Beetlewood is gone now , it’s gonna look way thicker in 15 years on the Plateau.

[338win mag]

They are not just after the bug wood, the pine beetle is a convienient excuse to log all the timber including spruce, fir, balsalm.
If its not logged ts going to burn as has been the cycle for thousands of years, the new cycle is log, grow new trees, log again, which is probably good but, they need to also burn the critical winter range

[stan]

They are not just after the bug wood, the pine beetle is a convienient excuse to log all the timber including spruce, fir, balsalm.
If its not logged ts going to burn as has been the cycle for thousands of years, the new cycle is log, grow new trees, log again, which is probably good but, they need to also burn the critical winter range

You seem like a real genius, got a forestry degree or what?