Mule Deer Restrictions

[dana]

Dana, flat out question.....
What is the fix for decreasing wildlife numbers?
Give me your 30,000 ft view that will meet the ever growing and complex challenges long term.

Personally, if we don't do anything about the predators, no amount of habitat is going to fix the mess we are in. Here is my take. Last summer, epic fire year, which I believe, just created some epic habitat. From my observations after the 03 fires, it took a couple years to really start seeing the benifits to mule deer. Then, wham, they started to go. And so did the hunting. I suspect the same will happen in much of the burns from 2017. But....With super high wolf populations, where are the dogs heading for? I am sure they were licking their chops all summer as they breathed in that smoke like the rest of us. To have these burns truly be productive, we need to hammer on those dogs instead of letting them take advantage of the new food source that will hit the ground each and every spring. Fawn recruitment is key. We need to gets those fawns to the point of having fawns and then those fawns having fawns and on and on we goes. If we let the preds fill their bellies, we will never get back what we once had. Doesn't matter how good the habitat. I say that in all honesty. I have seen top notch areas get eaten so bad, they are now almost void of all animals, not just the ones we hunt. If we continue to say, nope, nothing we can do. No political will. Nope nope nope. We are then just sitting on our hands watching everything go in the toilet. To be honest, I don't think there has ever been much political will for predator management in this province in my lifetime. The wolf cull in the 80's and the Paul Watson sega was all very dramatized with the government of the day caving way to fast. Probably wasn't much political will for it in the first place. So what do we do? I think we have at least go down fighting. Proguide is onto something and I totally support him. He is at least doing something about it and making differences for individual animals. A very good place to start. I think the biases of the past need to be put aside and I believe First Nations hold the key to turning the tide if we work with them instead of the constant blame game. I also believe the Forest Industry would be more than willing to help as the entire industry from Planning to Development to Logging is chalked full of hunters who actually care about the future of our wildlife and our hunting heritage. I think the blame game needs to stop and concrete solutions need to see action instead of just talk. That, my friend, is my personal view. I know there are plenty of super smart hunters out there that have some great ideas. Instead of bashing them telling them that won't work, maybe it is time to hear them out instead of hearing the same old same old from the same old same old.

[358mag]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks Dana

[Ourea]

Personally, if we don't do anything about the predators, no amount of habitat is going to fix the mess we are in. Here is my take. Last summer, epic fire year, which I believe, just created some epic habitat. From my observations after the 03 fires, it took a couple years to really start seeing the benifits to mule deer. Then, wham, they started to go. And so did the hunting. I suspect the same will happen in much of the burns from 2017. But....With super high wolf populations, where are the dogs heading for? I am sure they were licking their chops all summer as they breathed in that smoke like the rest of us. To have these burns truly be productive, we need to hammer on those dogs instead of letting them take advantage of the new food source that will hit the ground each and every spring. Fawn recruitment is key. We need to gets those fawns to the point of having fawns and then those fawns having fawns and on and on we goes. If we let the preds fill their bellies, we will never get back what we once had. Doesn't matter how good the habitat. I say that in all honesty. I have seen top notch areas get eaten so bad, they are now almost void of all animals, not just the ones we hunt. If we continue to say, nope, nothing we can do. No political will. Nope nope nope. We are then just sitting on our hands watching everything go in the toilet. To be honest, I don't think there has ever been much political will for predator management in this province in my lifetime. The wolf cull in the 80's and the Paul Watson sega was all very dramatized with the government of the day caving way to fast. Probably wasn't much political will for it in the first place. So what do we do? I think we have at least go down fighting. Proguide is onto something and I totally support him. He is at least doing something about it and making differences for individual animals. A very good place to start. I think the biases of the past need to be put aside and I believe First Nations hold the key to turning the tide if we work with them instead of the constant blame game. I also believe the Forest Industry would be more than willing to help as the entire industry from Planning to Development to Logging is chalked full of hunters who actually care about the future of our wildlife and our hunting heritage. I think the blame game needs to stop and concrete solutions need to see action instead of just talk. That, my friend, is my personal view. I know there are plenty of super smart hunters out there that have some great ideas. Instead of bashing them telling them that won't work, maybe it is time to hear them out instead of hearing the same old same old from the same old same old.

Again, what would be the long term sustainable plan?

[Sitkaspruce]

I don't believe that it has ever been looked at here in BC. A very big conservation org in the Western States. Don't really know why a chapter hasn't been established in BC. Might be that we thought muleys were doing well for so long that we didn't need to focus on them. Heck, we've had the most liberal seasons of any jurisdiction in the West. 3 a year baglimit and a GOS for 3 months. Heck, we were the envy of all mule deer hunters. But...we are now looking at something very different aren't we?

We sure are.

As far as mule deer foundation goes, what are we waiting on?

I think, and this is going back a few, few years, there was talk about the MDF coming to Canada, but our tax red tape and other stuff turned them away, just like the RMEF. Maybe we need to start a group like the WSSBC did as an affiliate of the WSF?

I think Steve (PG66) is talking about an Ungulate Foundation of BC or something along those lines.

As for all the other stuff, A fully agree with Dana, we need to let bygones be bygones, we need to start thinking about the future, who will be in that future and how, in the end, it will be beneficial to all wildlife. We need to focus in front of us, stop chasing our tail and start moving forward.

I do disagree with the forest companies working with us, wildlife has always got in the way of profits and always will, from leaving prime wood in RMA's, to "having" to deactivate roads to ungulates eating their seedlings. Ungulates need timber, so do companies. Ungulates need natural disturbance, forest companies don't. Profits will always lead the decisions on the ground, not wildlife. And as for hunters filling the ranks of the industry, (maybe is smaller communities but after living in two for 23 years, even that is changing), there is a new breed of forestry leaders, mostly coming out of UBC, Ontario and New Brunswick (RPF's), who are drinking in the new Kool-Aid from urban zones. Seeing it even in the field, where we have millenniums and Snowflakes now running equipment and doing layout.

Long road to travel, but at least some people are starting to wake up!!

Cheers

SS

[dana]

Again, what would be the long term sustainable plan?

Long term eh? I personally am not thinking that far ahead. Why? Because our world is ever changing and there is zero ability to predict the future. Hell, while we argue about silly things like mule deer baglimits and point restrictions, the rest of the world is sitting on the edge of their seats wondering if we are on the edge of a nuclear war. A guy can laugh but at the same time, WOW! Sorry, I don't have a long term solution. i know you keep talking funding. I totally get that. A great idea but I will not shy away from a few concerns I have with that idea. Don't take this wrong because I not saying I am against the idea. But I know in some of the States, Antis have been at the table and have used hunter's money to put a stop on a lot of hunting. These anti groups have not brought money themselvs to the table but had clout and make huge strides against hunting. How would we be able to ensure the same won't happen here? Probably not the forum topic to answer that here. Anyway, my answer is no long term goal. Lets deal with the problems we are currently facing. If we don't deal with those problems now, i don't believe there is much hope for the future regardless of our plans.

[HarryToolips]

I think, and this is going back a few, few years, there was talk about the MDF coming to Canada, but our tax red tape and other stuff turned them away, just like the RMEF. Maybe we need to start a group like the WSSBC did as an affiliate of the WSF?

I think Steve (PG66) is talking about an Ungulate Foundation of BC or something along those lines.

As for all the other stuff, A fully agree with Dana, we need to let bygones be bygones, we need to start thinking about the future, who will be in that future and how, in the end, it will be beneficial to all wildlife. We need to focus in front of us, stop chasing our tail and start moving forward.

I do disagree with the forest companies working with us, wildlife has always got in the way of profits and always will, from leaving prime wood in RMA's, to "having" to deactivate roads to ungulates eating their seedlings. Ungulates need timber, so do companies. Ungulates need natural disturbance, forest companies don't. Profits will always lead the decisions on the ground, not wildlife. And as for hunters filling the ranks of the industry, (maybe is smaller communities but after living in two for 23 years, even that is changing), there is a new breed of forestry leaders, mostly coming out of UBC, Ontario and New Brunswick (RPF's), who are drinking in the new Kool-Aid from urban zones. Seeing it even in the field, where we have millenniums and Snowflakes now running equipment and doing layout.

Long road to travel, but at least some people are starting to wake up!!

Cheers

SS

I too agree with Dana, something needs to be done about the predator pit in BC...an 'ungulate foundation' sounds great, I'm sure many of us would back that....I'm sure many of us would put some funding toward it....I would love to see such an organization educate the general public about what is happening in many parts of BC right now, and why predator management is important..

[Wild one]

Right now I don’t see a group without an agenda

[Ourea]

Long term eh? I personally am not thinking that far ahead. Why? Because our world is ever changing and there is zero ability to predict the future. Hell, while we argue about silly things like mule deer baglimits and point restrictions, the rest of the world is sitting on the edge of their seats wondering if we are on the edge of a nuclear war. A guy can laugh but at the same time, WOW! Sorry, I don't have a long term solution. i know you keep talking funding. I totally get that. A great idea but I will not shy away from a few concerns I have with that idea. Don't take this wrong because I not saying I am against the idea. But I know in some of the States, Antis have been at the table and have used hunter's money to put a stop on a lot of hunting. These anti groups have not brought money themselvs to the table but had clout and make huge strides against hunting. How would we be able to ensure the same won't happen here? Probably not the forum topic to answer that here. Anyway, my answer is no long term goal. Lets deal with the problems we are currently facing. If we don't deal with those problems now, i don't believe there is much hope for the future regardless of our plans.

If anti's influence Gov to stop all wolf hunting and trapping.....what then?!
Cougar hunting gets shut down, black bear??

It takes a bank roll to fight this shit dana.

What is encouraging is that there is finally a discussion going on how to help wildlife.
There are many different views and disagreement as to how but I find it encouraging that it is becoming a focus point of conversation.

[Bugle M In]

Personally, if we don't do anything about the predators, no amount of habitat is going to fix the mess we are in. Here is my take. Last summer, epic fire year, which I believe, just created some epic habitat. From my observations after the 03 fires, it took a couple years to really start seeing the benifits to mule deer. Then, wham, they started to go. And so did the hunting. I suspect the same will happen in much of the burns from 2017. But....With super high wolf populations, where are the dogs heading for? I am sure they were licking their chops all summer as they breathed in that smoke like the rest of us. To have these burns truly be productive, we need to hammer on those dogs instead of letting them take advantage of the new food source that will hit the ground each and every spring. Fawn recruitment is key. We need to gets those fawns to the point of having fawns and then those fawns having fawns and on and on we goes. If we let the preds fill their bellies, we will never get back what we once had. Doesn't matter how good the habitat. I say that in all honesty. I have seen top notch areas get eaten so bad, they are now almost void of all animals, not just the ones we hunt. If we continue to say, nope, nothing we can do. No political will. Nope nope nope. We are then just sitting on our hands watching everything go in the toilet. To be honest, I don't think there has ever been much political will for predator management in this province in my lifetime. The wolf cull in the 80's and the Paul Watson sega was all very dramatized with the government of the day caving way to fast. Probably wasn't much political will for it in the first place. So what do we do? I think we have at least go down fighting. Proguide is onto something and I totally support him. He is at least doing something about it and making differences for individual animals. A very good place to start. I think the biases of the past need to be put aside and I believe First Nations hold the key to turning the tide if we work with them instead of the constant blame game. I also believe the Forest Industry would be more than willing to help as the entire industry from Planning to Development to Logging is chalked full of hunters who actually care about the future of our wildlife and our hunting heritage. I think the blame game needs to stop and concrete solutions need to see action instead of just talk. That, my friend, is my personal view. I know there are plenty of super smart hunters out there that have some great ideas. Instead of bashing them telling them that won't work, maybe it is time to hear them out instead of hearing the same old same old from the same old same old.

I agree with Dana, with much of what he said, but not all.
I agree FN could be a key, and, I do believe resident hunters would like to work with them, even the ones who seem racially bised.
I doubt hwever, that the FN will ever want to work with us....they have "more to lose" if they did, honestly, they would have to "curb" their take of game if they did join in...but...if they don't, they will have looked at it short sighted, and in the end , will lose, as the game dries up for them as well, and the anti's don't do sweet F'all to want to fix issues hands on, just stand with signs.
As for forestry, yes, tons of forestry guys that hunt, and they are equally concerned and care...agree 100%, and would do whatever it would take to change "some forestry practices" for sure....and it's needed.
But, the "Big Bosses" don't care about that!, nor will they ever, because it is all about "$'s" to them, and anything more then getting that stump to the mill, is loss in profits....period!!!
Yup, great burns happened, so some good habitat in those areas for the future, but I agree, not with out removing some serious Pred #'s that have spawned up....for sure!.

But Ourea has a point, what is the "over all goal, not just for now, but the future".
1. Sustained wolf culling when necessary, which requires government acceptance, and, hopefully, non hunting community acceptance. (meaning, awareness campaigning with knowledgeable science)
2. Forestry changes, especially post harvesting, which is anything from burning to leaving the place without roads, and smaller cutblocks again, but that will create job loss, unless there is money there to due more work on the back end.
3. Mandatory Prescribed Burning, with x amount of hectares burnt per year.
4. FN changes, meaning, they have to start accepting that the way things were a couple of hundred years ago, no longer exists, and they have to accept that there are whole lot more then just FN living on this same planet now, and that they need to be a part of that "conservation model" now.
5. Hunting Heritage Protection for all Residents, which will require a lot of campaigning your local mla, and yes, it would be nice if FN would contribute to the cause...it would certainly help make it happen.
6. MONEY....MONEY.....MONEY
Can't have any of the above without MONEY, and Money that keeps coming in, year after year, and into a Fund that can only be used for the "said above".....and whatever else somebody can think of that is also need.
But, it requires Funding....thus a real long term "Funding Model", which starts at everyone's MLA's door.

[Ourea]

I agree with Dana, with much of what he said, but not all.
I agree FN could be a key, and, I do believe resident hunters would like to work with them, even the ones who seem racially bised.
I doubt hwever, that the FN will ever want to work with us....they have "more to lose" if they did, honestly, they would have to "curb" their take of game if they did join in...but...if they don't, they will have looked at it short sighted, and in the end , will lose, as the game dries up for them as well, and the anti's don't do sweet F'all to want to fix issues hands on, just stand with signs.
As for forestry, yes, tons of forestry guys that hunt, and they are equally concerned and care...agree 100%, and would do whatever it would take to change "some forestry practices" for sure....and it's needed.
But, the "Big Bosses" don't care about that!, nor will they ever, because it is all about "$'s" to them, and anything more then getting that stump to the mill, is loss in profits....period!!!
Yup, great burns happened, so some good habitat in those areas for the future, but I agree, not with out removing some serious Pred #'s that have spawned up....for sure!.

But Ourea has a point, what is the "over all goal, not just for now, but the future".
1. Sustained wolf culling when necessary, which requires government acceptance, and, hopefully, non hunting community acceptance. (meaning, awareness campaigning with knowledgeable science)
2. Forestry changes, especially post harvesting, which is anything from burning to leaving the place without roads, and smaller cutblocks again, but that will create job loss, unless there is money there to due more work on the back end.
3. Mandatory Prescribed Burning, with x amount of hectares burnt per year.
4. FN changes, meaning, they have to start accepting that the way things were a couple of hundred years ago, no longer exists, and they have to accept that there are whole lot more then just FN living on this same planet now, and that they need to be a part of that "conservation model" now.
5. Hunting Heritage Protection for all Residents, which will require a lot of campaigning your local mla, and yes, it would be nice if FN would contribute to the cause...it would certainly help make it happen.
6. MONEY....MONEY.....MONEY
Can't have any of the above without MONEY, and Money that keeps coming in, year after year, and into a Fund that can only be used for the "said above".....and whatever else somebody can think of that is also need.
But, it requires Funding....thus a real long term "Funding Model", which starts at everyone's MLA's door.

Some are getting it.
Some are becoming even more polarized.