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Thread: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude View Post
    The Camps When it comes to advocating for the recovery of declining wildlife populations there are three general camps on the issue.
    Camp 1. Hunters with a Heart
    “Hunters with a Heart” are the hunters who honestly feel if giving up hunting will bring back wildlife populations they are willing to forego their own opportunities. During the unregulated exploitation periods of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the history of conservation in Canada was about placing restrictions on hunting so wildlife populations could recover. The “Hunters with a Heart” mean well. They are unselfish and willing to give up something important to them for conservation. But they have fallen into the trap of believing that hunting in the 21st century under strict conservation principles and regulatory controls is the cause of population declines. The overall wildlife management model in B.C. has failed these hunters by allowing them to feel they are the problem. Hunters are bombarded with anti-hunting messages, negative media coverage and even substandard research that paints the picture that hunting is now bad for conservation. Wildlife managers and biologists should be clearly standing up and telling the government, public and media that hunting is sustainable and there is no reason to keep taking away from hunters. Too many hunters seem to believe they are the cause of wildlife problems and hunting regulations are seen by many as the only way to recover declining populations.
    Camp 2. Hunter Hating Hunters
    There is a small subculture in the hunting community comprised of hunters who hate other hunters being out in the mountains and enjoying success. There are folks who would like nothing more than hunting to be so restrictive that they are the only ones in the woods. In other areas of society this elitism manifests itself when the cost of an activity becomes a barrier to entry and only the rich can enjoy it. In hunting, making hunting regulations so restrictive that hunters say, “Screw it” and quit is something the “Hunter Hating Hunters” actually want to have happen. The real sinister part of this subculture is when folks use the situation of declining wildlife populations to advocate for shorter seasons, more restrictions, less opportunity and advocate for pretty much anything that reduces the number of hunters. These folks might not even be interested in having populations rebound so more people can enjoy success and the number of hunters can increase. Rather they might hope for the opposite. Often these hunter haters stand out in the crowd because they are the loudest ones at public meetings or they are the ones pushing their opinions over and over again in the local newspapers. They use the word “I” a lot and often use coercive tactics to get a group of people aligned with their way of thinking. Often their arguments lack logic and their opinions on hunting regulations are self-serving. You can often recognize these hunters because they advocate for restrictions that affect everyone else except them. For example, I recently read a submission where hunters said: “spike elk should be closed, hunting bull elk in the rut should be closed, the elk season should be shortened by 10 days and the remaining cow permits should be revoked”. At the same time the submission said, “Senior hunters should be allowed to hunt any elk at any elevation all season long”.

    Camp 3. Hunters-4-Science

    The “Hunters-4-Science” are the folks that want science and objectives to drive wildlife management. They are critical thinkers and well-versed in the scientific literature as well as being knowledgeable about wildlife management concepts and government policy. Some of these hunters are actual wildlife scientists. “Hunters-4-Science” believe that wildlife policy needs to be based on solid wildlife and human dimensions research. The “Hunters-4-Science” are often the ones asking questions rather than stating opinions at public meetings. They are the ones most proactive in engaging with biologists and politicians to find solutions to problems. “Hunters-4-Science” recognize that the future of hunting relies on sustainable wildlife populations and they know that sustainable wildlife populations rely on world-class funding for wildlife management, lots of science and lots of voters who care deeply about wildlife

    "Classic camp 1 response."

    "Classic response from a camp 2 hunter."

    fisherdude - This attitude is POISON for hunting. Anti-hunters would applaud you for promoting segregation and fighting within the hunting community. Dividing the hunting community is negative & will only result in it's FAILURE.

    You post some good information, but your attitude can be so abrasive & confrontational at times, that it turns people off & makes them want to argue & play devil's advocate.

    I believe that wildlife management must be based on science & support that. I am willing to forgo my own hunting opportunities if it will help wildlife populations. I have no problem finding game, enjoy sharing & reading about other hunter's success - which is mainly why I visit this forum.

    You can choose to focus on the positive or negative. We need to work together as a community to focus on finding constructive solutions.
    The mountains are calling & I must go. ~Muir

  2. #62
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    I Agree I got more from his past . article than the F/D's post on how to divide us.

    Good Stuff.
    http://hunterconservationist.ca/12-w...hange-in-2018/

    Wasn't Hall involved with the BCWF foe a while, what ever happened to him?

  3. #63
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by gcreek View Post
    I'm thinking the spike in 1987 was when the roads opened up for the slaughter here at Anahim Lake.
    The slaughter, do you mean by humans.

  4. #64
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    hmmm....looking at the charts, since 1976, things just decline.
    But, look at the pages of hunting regs since 1976 till now, well those sure have grown (no one can argue that)
    So, I guess there just wasn't enough hunting restrictions passed year after year til now.
    So hey,throw in some more.
    Funny, haven't heard many saying to remove many of them, just, "why add more", if it has shown not to
    "help enough" to make a difference.....hmmm
    Totally makes sense to me now...lol
    Restrictions, there has been many things added in, Wk elk came off leh Some region 4 goats came off leh mind you the one didn't last long
    could because of to many of the wrong ones being shot. Whitetail doe season, spike fork moose season , early and late bow seasons been
    quit a few additions as well.

  5. #65
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by 325 View Post
    Great post! I have tried to educate many hunters on the principles of wildlife management, only to have them stare glassy eyed and me and respond with “we need to put everything on LEH”. Many hunters just don’t understand wildlife management, and that needs to change. We also must insist that wildlife management is adequately funded so we can make sound management decisions based on truth.

    As is stands now, we are trying to come up with solutions to the problem of declining wildlife, without having actually defined what the problem actually is.
    Yes very good article of ones opinions/thoughts but in both examples says use science but doesn't no what the problems are.

  6. #66
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by horshur View Post
    What makes sense? That the urban will, development for jobs and social programs, urban sprawl and all the concurrent uglies of humanity have had there effect and hunters can do shit all about it except Resort to Arsony.
    None of the proposed regulation are detrimental to wildlife. The statistics have already been posted that very little in hunter harvest will change if you believe them. So what's the big deal?
    We have no social licence to do what needs to be done even habitat wise. So why blame hunter groups for proposals? Put the blame where it belongs.
    Honestly, I thought I was, that the Fault is with the Ministry (the government), and that they just try to manage wildlife with "hunting regs", ever year.
    I never said hunting reg don't need to exist, they do!, but they haven't helped produce more wildlife!!
    It just keeps going downhill, and they wont manage wolves, and they never wanted to spray to kill the beetle way back when it started, years and years ago...all due to public pressure, and worse, ripping us hunters off by not using all 100% of our tag money to put back into burns or what have you.
    Don't have to tell me about urban sprawl, cant go from 4 million to 9 billion and climbing on the same little ball floating in space, and hope that everything stays the same.
    But hunters are the biggest reason why animals are disappearing all over this planet, and with a little help from hunters, have shown to grow, instead of decline, if money is thrown back into the system.
    Sorry, I tried to be respectful when I asked you about if you liked the article, but you ended up just going on with some sort of BCWF conspiracy, and it just ends up wrecking thread after thread around here, and its not just you, lots of people involved, in both camps.

  7. #67
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude View Post
    Classic response from a camp 2 hunter.

    Claim to be pushing science, even when faced with a chart that shows a 2% hunting-related mortality, while simultaneously supporting further hunting regulations restrictions.

    The most dangerous type of hunter that is feeding the anti-hunting groups and anti-hunting government with the exact ammunition they want to stop it all.
    Interesting what you think of others FD well you seem to push for science based things so will see if things can be answered here.
    Lets just talk goats since in the other thread you stated the population must be >100 in every year or there wouldn't be a hunt well I should where in 4-25a there was a count of 25 and they still had a hunt, So according to what you posted some thing is wrong, also don't believe they do counts every year so again if this is true , something is wrong.
    So can you help make me believe this science based management and post up the goat count numbers for the last 15 years in that area, or for all mus in region 4. If you could post up the moose count numbers for the last 15 years by MU in region 4 that would be great as well or at least provide a link that shows this. Then I and others may be able to start to believe science based management since you say it must be plus a certain number in every year.
    Thanks for your time.

  8. #68
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by LBM View Post
    Restrictions, there has been many things added in, Wk elk came off leh Some region 4 goats came off leh mind you the one didn't last long
    could because of to many of the wrong ones being shot. Whitetail doe season, spike fork moose season , early and late bow seasons been
    quit a few additions as well.
    LBM, I am all for hunting regs, they are needed, that's a given.
    But have to admit, always just more and more regs, but, no money being put in for any sort of projects.
    Look at you hometown and surroundings...
    Just more resorts and urban sprawl, but none of them putting any money in.
    But, even if they did, the government would just piss it away "under general revenue".

  9. #69
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by LBM View Post
    Interesting what you think of others FD well you seem to push for science based things so will see if things can be answered here.
    Lets just talk goats since in the other thread you stated the population must be >100 in every year or there wouldn't be a hunt well I should where in 4-25a there was a count of 25 and they still had a hunt, So according to what you posted some thing is wrong, also don't believe they do counts every year so again if this is true , something is wrong.
    So can you help make me believe this science based management and post up the goat count numbers for the last 15 years in that area, or for all mus in region 4.
    Mountain goat population data: http://friendsofkootenay.ca/sites/de...ole%202006.pdf

    4-25 (4Ea)
    1986: 695
    1992: 1080
    2000: 342
    2005: 545

    So you're telling us there are only 25 goats left now?

    If so, it's not from hunting. Kills since the 2005 count by year, 2006 - 2016:

    10
    6
    2
    8
    3
    7
    0
    2
    8
    10
    7

    Total = 63 goats killed in 11 years.

    Taking an average of 5.5 goats a year from a population of 545 is a harvest rate of 1%. A goat population won't decline by 95% over 11 years by harvesting 1% of goats per year.

    That's not a lot different from the 2% hunting-related moose mortality being used by some to promote moose hunting restrictions.

    Once again, we have examples of people blaming hunters for declining populations when we can clearly see, hunting has nothing to do with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by chevy
    Sorry!!!! but in all honesty, i could care less,, what todbartell! actually thinks
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    but man how much pepporoni can your arshole take anyways !

  10. #70
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    Re: Are We “Managing Wildlife to Zero” in British Columbia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude View Post
    Mountain goat population data: http://friendsofkootenay.ca/sites/de...ole%202006.pdf

    4-25 (4Ea)
    1986: 695
    1992: 1080
    2000: 342
    2005: 545

    So you're telling us there are only 25 goats left now?

    If so, it's not from hunting. Kills since the 2005 count by year, 2006 - 2016:

    10
    6
    2
    8
    3
    7
    0
    2
    8
    10
    7

    Total = 63 goats killed in 11 years.

    Taking an average of 5.5 goats a year from a population of 545 is a harvest rate of 1%. A goat population won't decline by 95% over 11 years by harvesting 1% of goats per year.

    That's not a lot different from the 2% hunting-related moose mortality being used by some to promote moose hunting restrictions.

    Once again, we have examples of people blaming hunters for declining populations when we can clearly see, hunting has nothing to do with it.
    Well thanks for clarifying that what you posted was false once again, I said 425A have a look at the 2014 count it will show you what they state for 425A
    425 is broken into sub units in case you didn't know.
    Again looks like counts are not done every year, so again false info you posted.
    And I never blamed hunters your the one that keeps saying that.
    Im just simply saying that a lot of the data or what you say is false and you keep showing that
    People can make there own decisions on what they think.

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