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Thread: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

  1. #201
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannybuoy View Post
    Not neccesarily true, as the number of does is dramatically being lowered as well. As bearvalley says lots of habitat
    But we are talking about hunting seasons and whether they are having adverse affects on mule deer.
    The last antlerless mule deer season was in the mid to late '90s IIRC.

    Licensed hunting isnt the problem.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Can I ask this, and to get back to one of the OP topics ( I know, I was walking away from this thread)

    1) What was the latest fawn to doe ratio in the WK MU's?
    2) When was it done, year and month taken?
    3) Is it considered by Bios a good or strong # or % ?
    4) how often is this count down, every year or what?

    If that is not good enough for some, then I don't know what is or would be?
    As for hunters giving input, yes some of us have a good view of what it looks like out there, but I surely would not rely on hunters in general having "the facts" just from each others personal observations that for sure.

    Hey, while we're at it, why don't we just throw in the "get rid of all the whitetails in the WK" so there is more room for Mulies to rebound debate!....lets make this whole thread even more colorful and all over the place then it already is

  3. #203
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Keta1969 View Post
    BV I'm curious about what that would actually mean. Are hunters that much more efficient or there more moose than thought? I thought that LEH numbers were decided and a success rate calculated with the idea that say 100 authorizations would be issued with a calculated success rate of say 60% which would be 60 animals. So it would follow that going over by 60% this would result in the harvest of 36 additional moose or 96 total but still below the initial 100. Now if that's too many for a stable population they need to lower the number of authorizations especially if hunter success is because of increased access or some other unnatural condition. Don't doubt what you're saying but would be interested in where this is and your thoughts on why this is. By the way I might be misunderstanding how LEH is set but it has been explained that way to me.
    You make a good point.

    On the one hand, BV complains about moose numbers being dismal.

    On the other hand, BV is telling us that hunters achieved 160% harvest over 5 years.

    How is it possible to achieve 160% harvest for 5 straight years with dismal moose populations?

    Something ain't adding up, and I suspect that it's from somebody trying to suck and blow at the same time.

    Now, of course, this extreme example may be the result of an AAH in one specific subunit of 1 moose per year, and having 8 shot in 5 years. 8/5 = 160%. Unlikely 3 moose will make or break a population unit, especially since huntable units generally require 100 or more animals to be open for hunting.
    Quote Originally Posted by chevy
    Sorry!!!! but in all honesty, i could care less,, what todbartell! actually thinks
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    but man how much pepporoni can your arshole take anyways !

  4. #204
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Sheep Steve View Post
    But we are talking about hunting seasons and whether they are having adverse affects on mule deer.
    The last antlerless mule deer season was in the mid to late '90s IIRC.

    Licensed hunting isnt the problem.
    The question is what is the percentage of does that have fawns, how many are being born late and how viable is it for those fawns to survive.
    Antlerless seasons, horn regs etc don’t mean s***....what’s the big picture causing the mule deer decline.
    Is it too much pressure on the breeding bucks causing a fawn crop with little chance of surviving the first winter?

  5. #205
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude View Post
    You make a good point.

    On the one hand, BV complains about moose numbers being dismal.

    On the other hand, BV is telling us that hunters achieved 160% harvest over 5 years.

    How is it possible to achieve 160% harvest for 5 straight years with dismal moose populations?

    Something ain't adding up, and I suspect that it's from somebody trying to suck and blow at the same time.

    Now, of course, this extreme example may be the result of an AAH in one specific subunit of 1 moose per year, and having 8 shot in 5 years. 8/5 = 160%. Unlikely 3 moose will make or break a population unit, especially since huntable units generally require 100 or more animals to be open for hunting.
    FD, I’m not real big on sucking and blowing but a couple of government staffers were probably wishing they could do both when this came out...instead they chose to throw their colleagues under the bus.
    As to numbers the 5 year resident number was 100, the harvest 160....all 5 guides in the region were reduced to .8 of a moose annually.....do the math.
    This is only one MU....apply it province wide as I’m sure this won’t be a stand alone case.

  6. #206
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by bearvalley View Post
    what’s the big picture causing the mule deer decline.
    Habitat.

    If we know one thing with 100% certainty, it's that.

    But in this age of instant gratification, there's little chance we can convince holdouts that habitat = more mule deer, so we'll continue to screw with regulations and manage the population to zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by chevy
    Sorry!!!! but in all honesty, i could care less,, what todbartell! actually thinks
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    but man how much pepporoni can your arshole take anyways !

  7. #207
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by horshur View Post
    But bugle you are hunting a four point restriction hunt.lets say they can that regulation do you have confidence that buck/doe ratios will remain optimal? The four point season is actually working for the most part. Science says it is. Other tools that managers have will cramp hunters worse. Ie LEH and shorter seasons. Long seasons in high access areas are hard on bucks you can't get around that.
    Long seasons and high access....
    Lets talk elk for a second, and the best example is in the EK.
    Road closures for 40+ years, because some R&G Clubs thought this would reduce hunter success and help keep
    Wildlife Levels High.....restrict hunter access=less hunter success=more wildlife....
    6pt Restriction for the past 20+years, because, there wasn't enough mature elk and a lack of "Trophy Sized Bulls"!
    (starting to sound familiar doesn't it..to this thread???)
    Guess What????............still NO MORE ELK....if anything, the #'s have declined!
    And, lets not forget!!..elk hunting is from Sept 1 til Mid October...it's even a shorter season then mule deer is....
    What does it mean??...not hunting related that's for sure.

  8. #208
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher-Dude View Post
    Science does not favour 4 point restrictions.



    • Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the
    average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age
    classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

    • Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the
    smaller-antlered young bucks.

    • Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with very low
    buck:doe ratios (<10:100), pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively
    few, or no, additional fawns.


    Available data and experience suggest antler point restrictions result in no long-term increase in either the proportion or number of mature bucks, or the total deer population.
    the point restrictions are a tool to maintain buck to doe ratios period. Are you arguing that? Really?
    It is well to try and journey ones road and to fight with the air.Man must die! At worst he can die a little sooner." (H Ryder Haggard)

  9. #209
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    Long seasons and high access....
    Lets talk elk for a second, and the best example is in the EK.
    Road closures for 40+ years, because some R&G Clubs thought this would reduce hunter success and help keep
    Wildlife Levels High.....restrict hunter access=less hunter success=more wildlife....
    6pt Restriction for the past 20+years, because, there wasn't enough mature elk and a lack of "Trophy Sized Bulls"!
    (starting to sound familiar doesn't it..to this thread???)
    Guess What????............still NO MORE ELK....if anything, the #'s have declined!
    And, lets not forget!!..elk hunting is from Sept 1 til Mid October...it's even a shorter season then mule deer is....
    What does it mean??...not hunting related that's for sure.
    bugle they have buck/doe ratio targets for scientific reasons. Point restrictions are a tool so is killing Does that is all I have been saying. For the most part managers have used the tools to maintain targets as they should and apparently for the most part buck/doe ratios are okay because of regs.Point restrictions/season duration/leh are other tools to maintain there targets. Pic your poison.
    It is well to try and journey ones road and to fight with the air.Man must die! At worst he can die a little sooner." (H Ryder Haggard)

  10. #210
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    Re: Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

    Quote Originally Posted by bearvalley View Post
    Good point as long as we move toward independent, unbiased wildlife inventory and harvest accountability.
    There are a lot of holes in the current system.
    Theres a hole alright, but as long as the system continues to allow hunter opportunity based on a questionable sustainability wildlife will carry on declining.
    Resident Access was the Mandate for the longest time and now it turns out to be one of the top drivers along with habitat, was that based on science?
    Funding for better science, and yet management claims the numbers are ok. What does a guy believe?
    INDEPENDANT AUIDIT!!!!!!!

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