anyone know when the cattle in Reg 3 have to be in by?

[RadHimself]

Thankyou for piping up linksman

[TexasWalker]

It has been proven time and again that where cattle are not, the wildlife soon leaves also. It has to do with keeping plants young and fresh.

Some changes due to Forestry rules but it once meant ranchers could burn range in the spring to get rid of old grass and brush growth to make room for new but that hasn't happened much in the last 25 years or so. Part of the reason moose have left for the prairies? Part of the reason for the mega fires this year?

If cattle weren't in those areas I doubt you would be able to walk through them.

You entitled folk need to sit back and think about your comments before you put your comments in gear.

What a load of manure.

[rocksteady]

Getting some popcorn.. be right bad.. think I need a big bucket

[gcreek]

I've been mulling over this comment for the last couple of days thinking about how to respond respectfully. Let me preface this by saying Gcreek, I do not know you personally but after reading your comments regarding the summer of fire in your area of the province and other topics I can reason that you are a hard working and conscientious Rancher and would love to buy you a big dozen for your troubles this summer. However, when I read that a member of the Canadian Beef industry dares to call someone in a very small minority group (hunters) entitled, I pretty much swallow my tongue and turn purple. IMO Big beef in Canada is the most entitled group (more than 1st nations) in the country, always being bent over to by all levels of government. Bailout packages, loss reimbursements and I'm sure more $$ coming their way after the devastating fires of this summer (not begrudging this). My family and I do not eat beef anymore, we simply cannot afford to pay the cost of the product which has tripled if not more in years past. That aside I would also like to know would a couple of healthy herds of Elk introduced on this same lease area benefit this environment in the same way a herd of cows would, why hasn't this option been explored if the scientific data you refer to is correct. I remember their was a push to reintroduce Elk in close to the same area of these devastating fires but was shot down by a certain almighty interest group.

#1. It has been proven that land purchased by Nature Conservancy that has kept cattle off has had reduced wildlife populations over time. Not saying that prescribed burning or more wild ungulates wouldn't keep forage for all fresh and new but how would you keep elk or deer on this wildlife only land when there is a nice alfalfa crop growing next door? In almost every instance, Nature Conservancy has brought cattle back into the scenario for controlled lengths of time. Birds, deer and other wildlife followed the cows back.

#2. In answer to your statements about subsidies. During the years that cattle prices were low due to BSE, most cattlemen across the country received what I referred to as welfare cheques. It help a lot when calves were worth $400 and production costs for most are at least 150% of that figure. Anyone with irrigation pumps is closer to $800 production costs. We are enrolled in a program called Agristability. In 2009, we shipped 32 cull cows and 2 bulls to a sale. Gross cheque before freight and sale charges was $7700 and change. Is that a rich person's wage to you?

3. Thinking your elk likely would create the same environment cattle do over time. If they stayed put. If the wolves didn't drive them out or kill them all...... I think you will find that most ranchers don't want elk but actually can accept them WALKING to a new area. Just like they did over history. Ranchers also are the ONLY reason that wolves are being controlled to some extent. Did you think of that?

As far as you mentioning you can't afford beef, how much do you spend hunting for 400 lbs of moose and maybe 50 lbs of deer meat. Hamburger cows are only worth about 85 cents a lb right now for the best. A 1400 lb cow would put 500 lbs of stew and burger in your freezer. 1000 lb steer would cost you $1750 live. You could turn them loose and shoot them however you like.

I am also aware that some use there range or portions of it harder than they should, happens here too. I can show you a big part of the range in this country that doesn't see a cow. There is no more game there than where the cows are.

By "entitled" I am referring to those that feel they should be able to drive every road in the country, these same would never have ventured into the same area when the road wasn't there. Driving a vehicle or ORV down a road isn't hunting. It is being an opportunistic searcher of something to shoot at. Most road hunters I know can drive for miles and never see a track. I actually pay a sum for my entitlement on crown land. It also involves fence repair and construction, predator mitigation and lots of time checking and gathering cattle in the fall. The price is reasonable or we wouldn't be using crown. It is far from cheap.

I need to get out and be busy for a bit or my crew will know I'm lazy. Catch you in a few hours. Hope I answered your questions.

This year, my wife and I collected the big sum of $1732 each for our huge subsidy from Govt. WOW! There is 20 million announce to help with fires. It won't cover 10% of what has been lost.

[Ohwildwon]

#1. It has been proven that land purchased by Nature Conservancy that has kept cattle off has had reduced wildlife populations over time. Not saying that prescribed burning or more wild ungulates wouldn't keep forage for all fresh and new but how would you keep elk or deer on this wildlife only land when there is a nice alfalfa crop growing next door? In almost every instance, Nature Conservancy has brought cattle back into the scenario for controlled lengths of time. Birds, deer and other wildlife followed the cows back.

#2. In answer to your statements about subsidies. During the years that cattle prices were low due to BSE, most cattlemen across the country received what I referred to as welfare cheques. It help a lot when calves were worth $400 and production costs for most are at least 150% of that figure. Anyone with irrigation pumps is closer to $800 production costs. We are enrolled in a program called Agristability. In 2009, we shipped 32 cull cows and 2 bulls to a sale. Gross cheque before freight and sale charges was $7700 and change. Is that a rich person's wage to you?

3. Thinking your elk likely would create the same environment cattle do over time. If they stayed put. If the wolves didn't drive them out or kill them all...... I think you will find that most ranchers don't want elk but actually can accept them WALKING to a new area. Just like they did over history. Ranchers also are the ONLY reason that wolves are being controlled to some extent. Did you think of that?

As far as you mentioning you can't afford beef, how much do you spend hunting for 400 lbs of moose and maybe 50 lbs of deer meat. Hamburger cows are only worth about 85 cents a lb right now for the best. A 1400 lb cow would put 500 lbs of stew and burger in your freezer. 1000 lb steer would cost you $1750 live. You could turn them loose and shoot them however you like.

I am also aware that some use there range or portions of it harder than they should, happens here too. I can show you a big part of the range in this country that doesn't see a cow. There is no more game there than where the cows are.

By "entitled" I am referring to those that feel they should be able to drive every road in the country, these same would never have ventured into the same area when the road wasn't there. Driving a vehicle or ORV down a road isn't hunting. It is being an opportunistic searcher of something to shoot at. Most road hunters I know can drive for miles and never see a track. I actually pay a sum for my entitlement on crown land. It also involves fence repair and construction, predator mitigation and lots of time checking and gathering cattle in the fall. The price is reasonable or we wouldn't be using crown. It is far from cheap.

I need to get out and be busy for a bit or my crew will know I'm lazy. Catch you in a few hours. Hope I answered your questions.

This year, my wife and I collected the big sum of $1732 each for our huge subsidy from Govt. WOW! There is 20 million announce to help with fires. It won't cover 10% of what has been lost.

Thx for this info..

Bearvalley or anyone else care to back this?...

[GoatGuy]

#1. It has been proven that land purchased by Nature Conservancy that has kept cattle off has had reduced wildlife populations over time. Not saying that prescribed burning or more wild ungulates wouldn't keep forage for all fresh and new but how would you keep elk or deer on this wildlife only land when there is a nice alfalfa crop growing next door? In almost every instance, Nature Conservancy has brought cattle back into the scenario for controlled lengths of time. Birds, deer and other wildlife followed the cows back.

#2. In answer to your statements about subsidies. During the years that cattle prices were low due to BSE, most cattlemen across the country received what I referred to as welfare cheques. It help a lot when calves were worth $400 and production costs for most are at least 150% of that figure. Anyone with irrigation pumps is closer to $800 production costs. We are enrolled in a program called Agristability. In 2009, we shipped 32 cull cows and 2 bulls to a sale. Gross cheque before freight and sale charges was $7700 and change. Is that a rich person's wage to you?

3. Thinking your elk likely would create the same environment cattle do over time. If they stayed put. If the wolves didn't drive them out or kill them all...... I think you will find that most ranchers don't want elk but actually can accept them WALKING to a new area. Just like they did over history. Ranchers also are the ONLY reason that wolves are being controlled to some extent. Did you think of that?

As far as you mentioning you can't afford beef, how much do you spend hunting for 400 lbs of moose and maybe 50 lbs of deer meat. Hamburger cows are only worth about 85 cents a lb right now for the best. A 1400 lb cow would put 500 lbs of stew and burger in your freezer. 1000 lb steer would cost you $1750 live. You could turn them loose and shoot them however you like.

I am also aware that some use there range or portions of it harder than they should, happens here too. I can show you a big part of the range in this country that doesn't see a cow. There is no more game there than where the cows are.

By "entitled" I am referring to those that feel they should be able to drive every road in the country, these same would never have ventured into the same area when the road wasn't there. Driving a vehicle or ORV down a road isn't hunting. It is being an opportunistic searcher of something to shoot at. Most road hunters I know can drive for miles and never see a track. I actually pay a sum for my entitlement on crown land. It also involves fence repair and construction, predator mitigation and lots of time checking and gathering cattle in the fall. The price is reasonable or we wouldn't be using crown. It is far from cheap.

I need to get out and be busy for a bit or my crew will know I'm lazy. Catch you in a few hours. Hope I answered your questions.

This year, my wife and I collected the big sum of $1732 each for our huge subsidy from Govt. WOW! There is 20 million announce to help with fires. It won't cover 10% of what has been lost.

We've been spending time, money and energy fencing cattle out of Nature Conservancy and The Nature Trust properties in the Cariboo, Kootenay and the Okanagan due to over-grazing, riparian habitat destruction from over-grazing/cattle. The White Lake biodiversity ranch in the Okanagan is an exception and is the only 'graze' property I'm aware of that has received federal approval. The way it is managed is nothing like anything else we have going in BC.

I don't think your first point is supported by reality.

As said in moderation everything can work together. When there's no moderation, and range use plans aren't being followed the theory doesn't hold water. Right now on conservation properties in BC, we have some major issues with weeds/over-grazing/riparian area damage.

[GoatGuy]

I don't know what everyone is complaining about. When you follow this link through and when you add the layers for the crown grazing leases that are included in iMap, there are very few spots in most areas that have grazing leases.

There are currently 491 grazing leases in BC which cover around 160,000 hectares. They are generally in super productive habitat. There are treated like private property. It's an archaic form of tenure that probably isn't consistent with the public interest.

There's not much give and a lot of take.

[firebird]

Anyone know when hunting season is over? Getting annoyed with trespassers and dickheads leaving my gates open. Does that sound as nice as your post?

LMAO!!!

Right back at you, good one!

[GoatGuy]

Not hard to find literature on coarse woody debris in streams and its benefits. Do you know why they stopped the strawberry hill fire north of Kamloops? Poor range management practices.

You said fencing is 'hard to imagine' due to costs and habitat fragmentation - it is happening because of habitat destruction (over-grazing and riaparian) and concerns around water quality.

You suggested that cows produce mud holes which is good for creeks. I haven't seen any science to support that theory hence the remark that I would love to see the science. While cows might produce 'mud holes' they don't carry coarse woody debris into streams and those mud holes (areas of extremely high use) are usually accompanied by riparian habitat destruction which causes erosion, damages spawning habitat, increases siltation and has long-term negative impacts on habitat. I can say the areas with high use by cattle are usually nuked on either side of the stream. There's a reason DFO has spent so much time, and money working with landowners to pay for fences to keep cows out of fish bearing streams.

Habitat destruction, turbidity, crypto spore disturbance, issues with water quality, weed transfer, over-grazing are real. That is cow and ORV related.

I think your suggestions and assertions are a stretch and some of the claims are not supported by what we are doing in BC, or the science. Having said that if you can produce some data/science that says cows over-grazing and standing in creeks creating 'mud pits' is good for habitat and fish I would be more than happy to read it. All of what we are currently doing and seeing is the opposite of what you are saying.

Again, not an 'anti-cow' guy - everything in moderation and done consistent with range use plans works.

[horshur]

There are dozens of scientific articles stating the effects of fencing and habitat fragmentation.They are also traps contributing to predation. Focus on one problem create another.