anyone know when the cattle in Reg 3 have to be in by?

[gcreek]

Your tunnel vision is getting the best of you Jesse.

If you don't get a bunch of wolves and bears dealt with your habitat just as well be cow feed. At least Cattlemen are dealing with that problem. Is BCFW helping foot that bill at all? Maybe adding a voice? Or are you protecting them also?

Jesse? Any papers on this issue?

[Whonnock Boy]

I've asked around. Jesse's wage is not public knowledge, and that reverts back to where you're both getting the information from. You're being fed it by someone, and that information, as of right now, is confidential. Who's breaking the agreement, most likely an agreement that I would guess was cooked up by themselves?

This isn't a question of what should be public knowledge and what shouldn't, but since you've brought it up, I've had that discussion with the current operations manager, and current executives. As of right now, Prov. board minutes are available for viewing by the membership, but the Prov. board executive minutes are not. Those are the minutes of the meetings between the President, VP's, and treasurer. It seems there is some resistance with those, so much resistance in fact, that I was reported to WorkSafe BC as a safety threat by Brenton Froehlich after I visited the office to ask about the minutes. I was so scary, the office was put on lock down, for what I'm told, a few days. To go one step further, now nobody, including Mr. Froehlich wishes to explain or report on his actions. Are they hiding the most recent executive minutes, or those of the previous executive, which includes your friend?

Regardless, in my mind, agreeing with you, there should be open transparency, be it Mr. Zeman's wage, or executive meeting minutes, and there should be nothing to hide, especially considering the BCWF is a volunteer based, non-profit society. Now if you two could carry on without making snide comments like the one directed at Jesse's and his wages, maybe you all could have a decent discussion on cattle and how they impact wildlife. Maybe you two could actually post up some literature that supports your statement, be it biased material, or non-biased.

One final note. Mr. Zeman is worth every penny that he makes, is offered double it on a consistent basis, works 7 days a week, and deals with people like you two regularly. Every penny.

Have a good one. Hope I didn't stink up your tent too badly....

Their tent Troy, or your own.
It looks to me like you're pissing on your own leg.
I would think that the salary of a "paid lobbyist" working for a non charitable organization would be released to the general membership if they so asked.
Otherwise what's the secret?
No matter how you slice it, an executive is working for the members, or should be.

[bearvalley]

Troy, you seem to have missed where I stayed out of this shit show until Glaicar and my name got pulled into it by you.
Keep it up, you're closing doors.
Then again fire away, I'm pretty sure if you keep pissing in enough tents you'll eventually be dribbling down your leg.
By the way, when you were visiting with Brenton did you ask how his trip up north went?

[Rob Chipman]

Gcreek:

"Try using a little imagination Rob."

I'm asking for science and you're saying "imagination and anecdotal evidence is better than science, because science is, like, Al Gore".

Stop digging. Al Gore isn't anymore science than Miley Cyrus. They're both imagination and anecdote. Line up with them if you like, but I'll stick with science.

Remember that you can always say "I've heard it said and believe it to be true, and my anecdotal experience seems to confirm it, that cattle on the range, in controlled circumstances, are beneficial to wildlife, but I don't have any scientific studies to back me up". That saves you from trying to argue that science is bullshit or arguing with people that like science the your opinion is more valuable. It may well be that range practices in BC are beneficial to wildlife. It is incontrovertible that range practices in many parts of the world have (in some cases irreparably) destroyed habitat.

I did what I asked you to do. I googled "do cattle damage wildlife habitat scientific articles". First thing I found?

"We found more negative (n = 86) than positive (n = 34) ungulate responses overall, however, most studies have been on browsers and mixed feeders, namely deer and elk,..." (http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10...6/11/11/113003)

To be fair, the same piece also said "Grazing by livestock generally reduces quantity, but sometimes improves quality of vegetation by removing old forage and stimulating new growth (Georgiadis et al1989). Therefore, the effect of livestock grazing on native herbivores can be negative, through exploitative competition, or positive, as a result of facilitation. Wild herbivores of differing body sizes are predicted to respond differently to this tradeoff between forage quantity, quality, and predation (Hopcraft et al2010, 2012)."

From another source: "Anderson (1989) points out that removal of livestock grazing can also have substantially negative impacts on some wildlife populations." (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...50742416300768" ; The same source also says:

"Trampling of sensitive plants, pegging of wet ground, slumping of streambanks, impacts on aquatic flora and fauna, and changes to hydrology and stream channel morphology may be quite negative (Belsky et al., 1999; Fleischner, 1994; George et al., 2004) if livestock presence is not well managed (Bush and Ptak, 2006)."

"However,application of controlled livestock grazinghas the potential to provide a management tool that canenhancehabitat for a wide array of wildlife (SeversonandUrness 1994). We simply need to explore the possibilitiesrather than reiterate the negatives of livestock grazing." (https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/download/.../1057.

It's not too tough to find the stuff. The conclusion is a little more complex than you might like, of course, but it's a little more convincing than "it's been proven that removing cattle from the range reduces wildlife populations. Use your imagination". Point being, if you're the guy making the claim, and making it stridently, back it up or be prepared to face reasonable pushback. It seems clear that grazing, when managed well, can deliver net benefits. It can also damage habitat. We aren't exactly the best habitat protectors in BC, in case you didn't notice.

Troy:

"there should be open transparency, be it Mr. Zeman's wage, or executive meeting minutes, and there should be nothing to hide,..."

I think it's pretty well established that what employees of organizations get paid is not generally public knowledge, and while our desire to know and our idea about justice may make that tough to swallow I think that what a man is paid by his employer is not something that should be open to the whole world. Most people don't advertise their wage nor do most people require that everyone disclose their wage. The man deserves a certain degree of privacy. If you think the employee of a non-profit volunteer organization is over-paid take that into account when you elect the executive.

There should be plenty of transparency with minutes however.

Bearvalley:

It's pretty common that salaries paid to employees in member driven organizations are not public information nor available to to the members. Wage costs turn up in fanatical statements which should be available to members. That doesn't mean that the information's secret. It means that it's private.

[Whonnock Boy]

The doors are closed, most of them purposefully closed by me, and I intend to keep it that way, for good reason.

No, I didn't ask Brenton about his trip up north. What are you driving at?

Back to the original comments, and the conspiring. Who's feeding you confidential information, information that only Prov. executive BCWF members are, and as it stands right now, should be privy to?

Troy, you seem to have missed where I stayed out of this shit show until Glaicar and my name got pulled into it by you.
Keep it up, you're closing doors.
Then again fire away, I'm pretty sure if you keep pissing in enough tents you'll eventually be dribbling down your leg.
By the way, when you were visiting with Brenton did you ask how his trip up north went?

[Whonnock Boy]

Those are some good points Rob.

Troy:

"there should be open transparency, be it Mr. Zeman's wage, or executive meeting minutes, and there should be nothing to hide,..."

I think it's pretty well established that what employees of organizations get paid is not generally public knowledge, and while our desire to know and our idea about justice may make that tough to swallow I think that what a man is paid by his employer is not something that should be open to the whole world. Most people don't advertise their wage nor do most people require that everyone disclose their wage. The man deserves a certain degree of privacy. If you think the employee of a non-profit volunteer organization is over-paid take that into account when you elect the executive.

There should be plenty of transparency with minutes however.

Bearvalley:

It's pretty common that salaries paid to employees in member driven organizations are not public information nor available to to the members. Wage costs turn up in fanatical statements which should be available to members. That doesn't mean that the information's secret. It means that it's private.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would think that the salary of a "paid lobbyist" working for a non charitable organization would be released to the general membership if they so asked.
Otherwise what's the secret?
No matter how you slice it, an executive is working for the members, or should be.

You gonna post up how much Kevin Boon makes?

It's none of our business. Nor yours, for that matter.

[bearvalley]

The doors are closed, most of them purposefully closed by me, and I intend to keep it that way, for good reason.

No, I didn't ask Brenton about his trip up north. What are you driving at?

Back to the original comments, and the conspiring. Who's feeding you confidential information, information that only Prov. executive BCWF members are, and as it stands right now, should be privy to?

Troy, I'm not being fed anything but you're doing a super job of airing dirty laundry.
By the way, being a member of the BCWF, if I really wanted to know Fed business I'm probably as entitled to it on a par with you.
Maybe I need to start asking the executive what's going on that's such a secret from the membership.
But then I forgot, you got the doors closed....did you lock the back one too...?

[bearvalley]

You gonna post up how much Kevin Boon makes?

It's none of our business. Nor yours, for that matter.

It sure looks like a nerve got struck.

[Spy]

This thread is quite the shit show.
What started out with an OP thrown out by someone that either doesn't understand or respect rights that are tied to a grazing lease turns into tears over hard to open gates, cows in creeks and cattle eradicating deer winter range.
We even have Troy Halliday, the BCWF ex access committee chair throwing out allegations that Glaicar and myself are conspiring with gcreek. Good one Troy, you must be drinking the same hallucination liquid that Spy gets into.
Jesse, while your digging thru your paper pile...post the results of the water contamination complaint filed on Coldstream Ranch a few years ago. Didn't cows get initially blamed for that and further testing results found it to be canine, ungulate and human feces that were the culprits.
Now let's take a look at deer winter range.
A good example is Empire Valley, historically on of BC's greatest mule deer areas.
Deer populations remained high while Empire Valley Ranch maintained a cow herd that was 10 times what it is today.
The government stepped in, bought the ranch.
Part of it became protected grasslands, the cow numbers were lowered to a fraction and hard core management practices were one of the lease stipulation to the present operator.
What happened to the increase in deer we should have seen?
Lets see the science.
Remember Jesse, as I have told you, science is only as good as who compiled it....we see that every day with the steady stream of propaganda fed by the anti hunting groups thru their pretend scientists.
Keep burning bridges boys.....you've pissed off the guides...you aren't gaining many points with FN's...and now you're feeding a rift towards cattle producers...one day the smoke will clear and some of your support team will see thru the BS.

I was not going to post as i have NO skin in the game but then you had to bring me into it so I suppose i will give my 25c worth...
Bet you own cattle & you and the GOABC burnt the bridge with Resident Hunters! I could care less if the guides go out of business they are the ones that got the Grizzly bear hunt shut down its their clients that are the big bad Trophy hunters, hope they go the same way the Liberals did.. Hell I might join up with the antis to help them shut you down.. Keep on burning the bridges there are not many left and then you are gone and good riddens...

As for cattle on the land if they are doing damage then get them off & hunters should close gates behind them......

Its nobodies business what someone makes in there job and I think you crossed the line so childish...