region 5 hunting season 2017

[Big Lew]

Time will tell...As has been mentioned, these fires in BC the last few years have been
more intense, often moving very fast, and incinerating rather than scorching as they go
compared to fires in the past...usually because of past fire suppression efforts which has
led to unnaturally high buildups of dry fuels. I remember hunting in past burned areas and
they often had many unburned oasis within them, lots of trees that were scorched but still
had foliage, and green vegetation sprouting up everywhere right away. The last few massive
burns I've walked through looked like a nuclear bomb went off, everything incinerated, nothing
seemingly alive, a barren moonscape. Of course in due time regrowth takes place...but not as
quickly as in times past. I've also seen where re-planting has seriously suppressed natural
regrowth for years. Looking at some of these re-planted areas from a high vantage point, they
look like someone's vegetable garden where they have only planted one species. Doing so with
only future logging in mind, not our wildlife or a healthy environment.

[russm86]

Regarding the comment about beef prices being already low and going down, I'm curious what SRUPP has seen/heard on the beef market as it seems to be the opposite of what is really happening? I was just in Alberta for a wedding, on a farm, where I was pretty much the only person who didn't own a ranch/farm, they were mostly beef ranchers/farmers, everyone said the same thing, that beef prices are great for them (high) right now and expect it to go up even more due to a likely reduction in supply due to the losses in the fires here.

On another note, when we had the huge fires around the Kamloops area in 2003, I saw more animals in the freshly burned out areas than anywhere else it seemed and from the numbers I saw that year and the following few years it did not hurt the populations, I actually think they are lower now than they were then.

[GoatGuy]

Looking ahead the issues will be road densities, invasive weeds, and logging practices.

And those all go hand in hand.

Manage them and wildlife will do just fine.

[GoatGuy]

Regarding the comment about beef prices being already low and going down, I'm curious what SRUPP has seen/heard on the beef market as it seems to be the opposite of what is really happening? I was just in Alberta for a wedding, on a farm, where I was pretty much the only person who didn't own a ranch/farm, they were mostly beef ranchers/farmers, everyone said the same thing, that beef prices are great for them (high) right now and expect it to go up even more due to a likely reduction in supply due to the losses in the fires here.

It's a funny industry. Seems it's more about the individual operators then the industry as a whole. People either recognize the macro issues or the micro issues, depending on which best suits their situation.

On another note, when we had the huge fires around the Kamloops area in 2003, I saw more animals in the freshly burned out areas than anywhere else it seemed and from the numbers I saw that year and the following few years it did not hurt the populations, I actually think they are lower now than they were then.

Depends on time and place, some places end up being nuked, but most of the time it seems after the first rain the veg starts to come back and the critters are right behind.

In a pile of our fire maintained ecosystems you would have seen fire history of less than 10 years. After 10 years you get often back to ingrowth and ungulates like deer and elk start to become easier prey for predators. This is even more true today as conifers like pine, which would have historically been 'burned out' as saplings get the chance to establish themselves and take over the landscape.

[Fisher-Dude]

Wow, super intersting. Apparently SS was bang on with his statement of the animals moving back to the scortched earth almost immediately after the fire is gone. Really cool and informational case study, thanks Bugle. So it gives evidence that our concerns about the winter are somewhat valid but the new growth was so abundant that the populations rebounded and then continued to increase their populations.

The only real difference between this and Yellowstone is that Yellowstone is free of hunting. I also beleive, at the time, Yellowstone had almost no wolves which play a large role in ungulate mortality. But a more positive comparison in the long run considering everything. Again, thanks. It's nice to have somewhat similar circumstance to compare our current fires to.

These burns provide the perfect habitat for most ungulates to deal with predators.

Moose use their long legs to run through burnt blowdown and escape predators which have to crawl over or under.

Mule deer use the improved sightlines to spot predators at a distance that gives them a chance to bolt.

There is a far higher escapement from predation in burned areas than there is in dense, undisturbed pine forests.

[russm86]

It's a funny industry. Seems it's more about the individual operators then the industry as a whole. People either recognize the macro issues or the micro issues, depending on which best suits their situation.



Depends on time and place, some places end up being nuked, but most of the time it seems after the first rain the veg starts to come back and the critters are right behind.

In a pile of our fire maintained ecosystems you would have seen fire history of less than 10 years. After 10 years you get often back to ingrowth and ungulates like deer and elk start to become easier prey for predators. This is even more true today as conifers like pine, which would have historically been 'burned out' as saplings get the chance to establish themselves and take over the landscape.

Makes sense, I was wondering about timing too, but couldn't remember how late the fires here were still burning in 2003 compared with the ones this year.

[srupp]

Regarding the comment about beef prices being already low and going down, I'm curious what SRUPP has seen/heard on the beef market as it seems to be the opposite of what is really happening? I was just in Alberta for a wedding, on a farm, where I was pretty much the only person who didn't own a ranch/farm, they were mostly beef ranchers/farmers, everyone said the same thing, that beef prices are great for them (high) right now and expect it to go up even more due to a likely reduction in supply due to the losses in the fires here.

On another note, when we had the huge fires around the Kamloops area in 2003, I saw more animals in the freshly burned out areas than anywhere else it seemed and from the numbers I saw that year and the following few years it did not hurt the populations, I actually think they are lower now than they were then.

I was going off an analyst report on the Canadian investment money channel..the beef comodoty expert..who was reporting loss of feed in BC..the south by fires, the north by wetness, Alberta by dryness in some areas wetness in others .
This will cause some ranchers to evaluate costs and availability of feed at any price..so due to ongoing selling some prices are down but by Fall sell dates will have much higher numbers of sell..feeder calves especially. .food costs will eliminate benifit s of feeding and then selling..so many selling so much will drop prices.
Steven

[Sitkaspruce]

Harry, everyone is in agreeance that the fires are great for the animals in the long term. That fire was 10 years ago. What we are debating now on the short term effects; this year's fires mixed with last years winter, will likely be tough on the animals and maybe we should lay off of them a bit in the areas hit hardest.

Sitka again, I agree, the province needs the fires and our fire suppression efforts are what cause such enormous areas to be burnt in single summers. I forget the tree; but one conifers' cones need the fire fire to germinate. In regards to how quickly the burns greened up I find that surprising and maybe if this is true finding food sources won't be as much of an issue in the areas as some of us believed. However, from my time in university I unfortunately don't believe the areas will be teaming with green pioneer plants in 3 weeks. Hoping what I learned was wrong and your observations are more accurate though.

Here is vegetation growing a little over 3 weeks after the fire went through this pine/black spruce transition zone. Two months later this area and others were covered in a green carpet of grasses and shrubs. This year there is poplar, willow and cottonwood 3' high covering most of the burn areas, along with those same grasses and shrubs





even the bugs were working on turning the dead wood into food and fertilizer: frass from sawyer beetles



Depending on the burn intensity will determine the regrowth: too hot and sterilized soils will take a long time to reproduce

Looking ahead the issues will be road densities, invasive weeds, and logging practices.

And those all go hand in hand.

Manage them and wildlife will do just fine.

I agree, rehabbing all those new roads, fire breaks etc. is going to take a long time to get completed. Now going to have to log of a lot of the black wood is going to create more roads and more sightlines for both 2 and 4 legged preds.

Cheers

SS

[srupp]

Thanks Ken..exellent photos..
Hope you are well..
Putting all information together for our situation..
Cheers
Steven

[gcreek]

Exellent points on down the road explosion of growth..have seen this from the chopper in past much smaller fires ..pretty difficult when it's still burning..and no rain diminishing daylight hours for growth.
I would suggest this is different in that it's one of the 2 largest fires in area burning at once in 100 years .
Great points by numerous guys..it's really early..too early to tell the degree of deaths of wildlife..even guesses. .and yet hunting season is 4 weeks away..a lot will still be burning.
The stress..current relocation ..until food sources start to grow back. .for those that did survive..
How much loss of animals, habitat..how much more stress , harvest can be tolerated..if any..
We get one chance to get this right or numbers could be down for at least a few years..
I am concerned..especially for moose poulations on west side they have a extreme time with 24..7..year round hunting with already declining numbers perdom7natly by road access..these hundreds ds of cat roads will not help.
Good conversation. .different perspectives..again ethics does play a roll..didnt consider buying a Beef for our familly..just thought of going elsewhere for deer moose.
Srupp

Steven, the ungulate populations in the Chilcotin were already suffering due to predator pressure. The bears and wolves are still here.... Add in lack of feed in wintering areas and you will get some winterkill to boot.

So so many want to blame others for the situation, we are all responsible.

BTW, you wouldn't have any photos from the Fire on the Bella Coola hill that burnt in 2010 I believe? Still not much there, it even burnt the rocks.