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Thread: First nations traditional territory

  1. #71
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemby_mess View Post
    i think it might be more appropriate to say that we'd get along better if everybody understood what the rules actually are and not just pontificate on how things are reflected in the way the rules should be, in their personal opinions; however uninformed they may be.

    there is one set of rules - it's called Canadian law; legislation and common law. Civil, criminal and various other specialties. The system provides that if you are owed some particular right by someone else, that you be able to make a case and enforce that right. The same system allows for others to negotiate their interests on their own behalf just as you do yours, even if those interests may be antipathetic to your own.

    the real issue, is Canada didn't allow FN to appropriately negotiate and enforce their interests in good faith for a significant period of time. That was criminal - hmmm, maybe the old saying "crime doesn't pay" does come back to haunt you when the law comes back into balance. We should acknowledge that fact as a society so that a) we can prevent it from creating future liabilities that we'll have to come up with a way to pay, and b) it doesn't happen to "us" as well.
    your Quote "there is one set of rules"......
    That is where the issue lays......
    The FN Blockades are "illegal"....yet that "one set of rules does not apply....atleast not if it is done by FN.
    If I, a resident hunter/s, set up the same blockade...then that one set of rules applies...
    It is not a 2-way street anymore.
    But, I guess one day, there will be a fallout from this inequality that is going on.
    Just don't know when or where it will happen....but it will.
    Another saying as someone said " crime doesn't pay"...true....
    But, another saying is "2 wrongs don't make a right".....
    We are now at the "2 wrongs don't make a right" stage.....
    I have nothing against FN....have met some really nice people that are FN over the years.
    Just like residents (non FN), there are some Residents and FN who are just jerks (to put it lightly), but,
    that doesn't apply to everyone.
    The truth is....the planet is "too small" to have different sets of rules for different groups.
    FN have to accept the fact, as we all do, that the planet is becoming more heavily populated by the day....and snowballing.
    Traditional territories will have to be a thing of the past...
    As I said, this is my home, my native land as well....its the only place I have ever known....just like any FN.
    I have as much right to access all the places in BC that are legal for me to be.
    Blockades are illegal, and should be seen as such....no matter how you slice it.
    God, if this had been China, this wouldn't even be a conversation to talk about.

    There are 2 sets of rules in BC right now....not one.....which it should be....and that is the point I am trying to make.
    My point is not "racists based".....it's just what is going on.

    If I were to say "only people in BC who live here 12 months a year, can only buy a house here in BC"...
    Does that make me racists???
    Just because the majority of those who buy houses, who are foreigners, are mainly Asian...is my comment and
    proposal now "racist"????
    No, it could effect anyone.....germans, western European etc.

    I do agree, throwing in the comment " liquor store etc" are inappropriate....and racist stereotyping.

    All I am saying is....it should be one law for us all.
    And if I say "maybe we should block the "reservations"....that isn't racist...
    I am just putting the point across of what the FN are doing to the rest of us with there "illegal blockades"

    The reality is....there is no one going to SCC to fight some of these matters on the behalf of residents of BC.
    Until a group is put together, that can raise money thru fundraisers and membership etc...
    There will never be the "money" to fight these situations that are going on right now in court.
    If balance is to come back to this province and elsewhere...that is what is needed to make it happen....
    So until then....this BS with blockades and Traditional territories will continue...
    It would be appropriate to bring this to court...much gentler to settle in this manner....
    But...no one on the Government wants to take this on right now....so unfortunately...
    there is a risk that "extreme situations" make develop at some point due to this situation right now.
    And that is a "no win" for anybody...just people at risk of getting hurt.
    One planet, one land...one rule is all I am saying.
    Time to bring the "pendulum" back to the "middle"....that's all

  2. #72
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemby_mess View Post
    i think it might be more appropriate to say that we'd get along better if everybody understood what the rules actually are and not just pontificate on how things are reflected in the way the rules should be, in their personal opinions; however uninformed they may be.

    there is one set of rules - it's called Canadian law; legislation and common law. Civil, criminal and various other specialties. The system provides that if you are owed some particular right by someone else, that you be able to make a case and enforce that right. The same system allows for others to negotiate their interests on their own behalf just as you do yours, even if those interests may be antipathetic to your own.

    the real issue, is Canada didn't allow FN to appropriately negotiate and enforce their interests in good faith for a significant period of time. That was criminal - hmmm, maybe the old saying "crime doesn't pay" does come back to haunt you when the law comes back into balance. We should acknowledge that fact as a society so that a) we can prevent it from creating future liabilities that we'll have to come up with a way to pay, and b) it doesn't happen to "us" as well.
    Pemby, thank you. You are literally the only voice of reason I have heard throughout this whole thread. If even a quarter of the respondents in this thread had close to a clue about any of the content of your post, it would give me some level of hope that one day, people might get it rather than continue to ignore history and the ramifications that our own colonialism has wrought on us.

  3. #73
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugle M In View Post
    your Quote "there is one set of rules"......

    Time to bring the "pendulum" back to the "middle"....that's all
    Bugle, I hear you, and ideally, the pendulum will fall in the middle one day. Unfortunately, in order to correct the wrongs that were instituted during colonialism, the pendulum has had to swing to the other side. I think it would be unrealistic to expect anything else. That would be expecting any and all legacy items left from our colonialism to be reversed willingly and with no objection from government and non-aboriginals. Not going to happen, hence our whole discussion in this thread. People don't like the process and time involved for the pendulum to come to rest.

  4. #74
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    I grew up in a place called Kenora and was very familiar with the sad state of native culture compared to what we romanticize it to be....as a compassionate and fair minded person with many native friends I couldn't help but feel "white guilt"....after reading the histories of other people and cultures of the world, I went from feeling sorry to wondering when the natives would finally break the cycle of self loathing and self pity and become good Canadians....here are a couple topics to help.....highland clearances.........Irish potatoes famine.....Indian caste system...world war 2 German siege on the Russian front...South African appartied...people have been killing (and much worse) each other completely wiping out entire races/religions for all of recorded time and nothing done to natives in Canada is any worse than what other cultures have faced...in fact the king of England enacted some special rights for Canadian natives that have actually allowed them to live as they do instead of moving ahead....the reality is that times change and some rules and or promises made in the past no longer make any sense........you used to be able to squat on land and eventually claim it as your own....natives deserve a fair chance to connect to the land like everyone else that is super important ...but do not tilt the table to the point where you give any people opportunity to abuse the land we love....unfairness can not be "righted" with another wrong especially if it is our country that suffers as a result...

  5. #75
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Quote Originally Posted by Looking_4_Jerky View Post
    Bugle, I hear you, and ideally, the pendulum will fall in the middle one day. Unfortunately, in order to correct the wrongs that were instituted during colonialism, the pendulum has had to swing to the other side. I think it would be unrealistic to expect anything else. That would be expecting any and all legacy items left from our colonialism to be reversed willingly and with no objection from government and non-aboriginals. Not going to happen, hence our whole discussion in this thread. People don't like the process and time involved for the pendulum to come to rest.
    Yes, the pendulum had to swing hard...true...as things did need to be looked at.
    It would be fair to say that now, if all the FN band leaders have done a good job, that they should now have
    some financial security.
    But the traditional territory legacy has to come to an end....
    FN have to accept "or swallow" the fact that others live here too.
    FN can say they are the 1st people, but I was the 1st people somewhere too.....
    Now it should be about protecting and enjoying our wildlife and the habitat etc....for everyone.
    It's "everyone's territory" now.....that is just a fact....just like the fact that the city of Vancouver is growing.
    You can't stop it....
    Reality is...there has been injustices in every part of society all over the planet etc...
    Even in Europe, there has been conflict and wars and genocides etc....and people saying this is "my land"...not yours etc.
    That doesn't work.
    The Jewish community always talks about their genocide...but ....it's happened everywhere and not just to them.
    People all over the world have been pushed around and stepped on and worse....
    That is just how it is....and hopefully that we are learning to stop that from continuing etc.
    The FN have to realize and accept...that this is just what humans are like at times...
    It shouldn't come as a surprise....as Different FN Bands also fought each other.....
    Again...just human nature....not a color thing....
    That is the real truth....the weak will always be displaced and picked on...
    What would happen if something tragic happen, and we lost the court system etc.....
    IT would once again become what it was....just human nature.
    So....the sooner we all join hands...the sooner we all accept that we have to share equally...
    the better we can support each other....work together....and stay together...even if things took a turn for the worst.
    As long as we continue with separate laws (segregation), you will continue to feed discrimination (racism).....
    And with that....no one is safe....as the kindling is there for "human nature" to once again fire up.
    Just a fact of life on this planet...

  6. #76
    Pemby_mess Guest

    Re: First nations traditional territory

    ^ well, if what's good for the goose is good for the gander, remind me to do business with you sometime. Tell you what.........we'll negotiate a contract together where you allow me to re-develop your house into a condo. I'll agree to give you a 1000% return. Then, once I get paid in full for the project, I'll tell you to go get lost - no biggie right? You'll move on, put your energy into an other deal, right?

    oh no, you won't move on? You'll try to get your property back or compensation in lieu? Yeah I guess that makes sense.

    Ok ok well then, I'll get together with my buddy the judge, my other buddy the prosecuter, and together we'll fabricate some story where you're a thief, addict, and a rapist or otherwise just a menace to society and have you locked up. That should solve the problem.

    See the problem here? People really need to understand Canada's history better. We didn't wage war against FN as a country. We negotiated for our place here. If the rule of law is how we wish to interact with each other, then we have to figure out where on the timeline we wish to apply it. Otherwise it's a childhood game of "startingggg now!.....no, I mean now, ok I lost, I mean startingggg now!"

    see the point?

  7. #77
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    , two wrongs don't make a right...united we stand divided we fall....forgive and forget...live and let live...those are better words to live by than do unto others before they do unto you. Or revenge is a dish best served cold...barely 100 years ago some people would get their hand cut off for theft ...times change and rules change...50 years ago two reserves near where I lived waged open warfare on each other...we are a tribal animal....we need to make our tribe bigger and more inclusive not create divisions...compensation and restitution must b equitable and give the desired result of fairness in our society or it will only breed contempt

  8. #78
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    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Where I am here in England, the land has been forcefully taken over and over dozens of times...those people were all killed and that is the reality of what could have been in Canada...because the natives were allowed to live on reserves they were spared death..that it the reality of the past
    in Scotland there was enough extra land that some scots were spared death and placed on reserves instead...they had their children taken and put in special schools and were not allowed to speak their native language or practice their pagan religion....sound familiar
    Last edited by wideopenthrottle; 07-21-2017 at 01:00 PM.

  9. #79
    Pemby_mess Guest

    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Bringing the pendulum back to the middle isn't about somehow righting all the wrongs of the past. The only way to get this stuff sorted out, is through proactive negotiation on the part of our governments and getting representative leadership into the hands of individual fN. FN will have to make some major concessions in their positions in order to get a deal they can live with. But so will the Crown - that's how negotiation works. Both parties will feel a little hard done by at the end of it, yet in a better position than they were before the negotiation began. It's in the interest of everybody to get all this done asap.

    the alternative is we can continue playing a game of death by a thousand cuts in the Supreme Court as the Crown tries to hang onto an untenable position in Vain. Meanwhile the Chinese (much better negotiators than either party) will come in to capitalize on the disharmony in governance and we'll all find ourselves in the position that the aboriginals have found themselves in.

  10. #80
    Pemby_mess Guest

    Re: First nations traditional territory

    Quote Originally Posted by wideopenthrottle View Post
    Where I am here in England, the land has been forcefully taken over and over dozens of times...those people were all killed and that is the reality of what could have been in Canada...because the natives were allowed to live on reserves they were spared death..that it the reality of the past
    please.....that is so dumb. No organization of people ever has taken over an other and just killed them all. That, even as an ideology is incredibly rare, but let's start by just saying, seldom does one society even have the resources to conduct such an exercise on an other. The second point, is that typically the other society being consumed by the larger is typically viewed at some point as a resource itself to allow for future expansion.

    the British isles are actually a perfect example of the latter, which ultimately continued out to the world. In fact their system of law, which puts is derived, was their greatest weapon- as it is ours.

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