First nations traditional territory

[Pemby_mess]

Interesting you feel this way. You are 1 of the few. There is a big difference between some one who owns their land and actually put their own money into buying their property, take farmers for example, they don't let people always hunt on their property, but it is their right they put their sweat and money into it and have earned that right, as for aboriginals this is not the case, the land was given to them and most still are arguing in courts for more land to take for free. Then Aboriginals proceed to block people from entering their supposed land, why cant aboriginal people accept that it is their land but still allow access to the rest of Canada, why are borders put up, they did not buy the land, they don't pay taxes for that land, they still get grants from the government to build housing on their lands, lots of reserves actually make money from their lands sell commodities back to the normal tax payer but the commodities are not taxed as if non aboriginal people are selling the commodity. Sorry but there will always be a sour taste in my mouth towards the aboriginal people due to the fact always wanting more for nothing.

i think some of you guys could have most of your questions answered by doing some basic, open minded research into the legal background of First Nation title in Canada.

One of the essential institutions that allows a democracy to function, is an independent judiciary able to apply thousands of years of legal thought toward any particular legislation. In other words, the SCC. If it were just legislators making laws on the whims of the masses, any kind of governNce recognizable as a democracy would not be long for this world. In our system, everyone is ultimately accountable to someone else.

First Nations don't have special rights becuAse some sap of a judge feels they were subject to historic rasicism. Most of their rights were negotiatied in the long process of Canadian colonialism. Your property rights are enshrined once you exchange something of value to obtain them. The "crown" didn't buy its land in Canada per se either, but they did agree to exchange something of value in exchange for the use of it. Most of which they have largely reneged on in some fashion. There is debate whether it was even understood that the title to the land as its defined in common law was what was being exchanged, or whether it could be seen as some kind of leasing/tenure agreement. In the case of BC, the negotiations didn't even get that far and most colonization was done post Indian Act, where the crown kidnapped Fn kids and cordoned off the adults onto POW camps otherwise known as "reservations". The title to their land was never forfeighted to the crown, hence the term many bands use: "unceded land". This was all done in contravention to the way we apllied the laws to Europeans, hence the huge legal liabilities before the courts.

i assure you, we're not allowing title claims out of "white guilt". The courts will more often find in favour of FN claims, because more often then not, they are closer to conforming with the law than the crown's position.

[VFX_man]

Have a curious question . . . If there is the call for "traditional" lands, why can there not be a call for "traditional" harvest tools -- i.e. no "modern/powder" firearms can be used in "traditional" hunts on "traditional" lands.

[Pemby_mess]

"traditional territory " I don't think the signs mean a darn thing. All of north america was their traditional territory.

that may be the way you see it, but it's clearly not how the plaintiffs in the matter do. The latter probably being closer to legal reality. FN groups see themselves and their interests as distinct from one an other, not as a single group of amalgamated, legislated status of secondary citizen. Increasingly, as they make their case in our court rooms, most legal minds are inclined to agree.

When/if people in Canada see the consequences of FN claims coming to fruition, there will be a much stronger push for our governments to negotiate these claims fairly and quickly. Yet our position grows weaker by the day. They're already having serious affects on resource industry in at least BC.

The mining company I'm involved with, has deliberately worked with BC,AB and QB FN as partners to all of our mutual benefit.

[303savage]

You forgot liquor stores.

[Pemby_mess]

Have a curious question . . . If there is the call for "traditional" lands, why can there not be a call for "traditional" harvest tools -- i.e. no "modern/powder" firearms can be used in "traditional" hunts on "traditional" lands.

i think you could make a case for that. As an example, I believe that has been the compromise arrived at when looking at Salish traditional whale hunting down in Washington state. I believe they are restricted to using certain tools and prohibited from others.

it would be important to separate their historic resource right from their spiritual rights. For example they could make the case that if a species declined to population numbers that couldn't support a traditional resource harvest, that they may still be sllowed a reduced harvest using traditional tools for ceremonial purposes.

claiming that a culture has exclusively over certain kinds of technology is really problematic when you start thinking of overseeing the pragmatic implications of that being carried out.

[Pemby_mess]

You forgot liquor stores.

what about them?

[IronNoggin]

... As an example, I believe that has been the compromise arrived at when looking at Salish traditional whale hunting down in Washington state. I believe they are restricted to using certain tools and prohibited from others...

And you would be wrong in that assumption.
I was directly involved in the purchase of 50 caliber rifles specifically for that hunt (which btw they chose themselves over darting guns bearing penthrite grenades). Example does not work.

One of the essential institutions that allows a democracy to function, is an independent judiciary able to apply thousands of years of legal thought toward any particular legislation. In other words, the SCC.

Nor in this case does the SCC. They have made far too many biased decisions in favor of very sketchy FN pleas to be considered anywhere near what you suggest. Case in point: Jacklights and night hunting with spotlights / trucks / high powered rifles.

Cheers,
Nog

[Pemby_mess]

And you would be wrong in that assumption.
I was directly involved in the purchase of 50 caliber rifles specifically for that hunt (which btw they chose themselves over darting guns bearing penthrite grenades). Example does not work.

I don't know that much about it, so i'll defer to your knowledge surrounding it. I just remember there being a decade long conversation about the use of traditional tools in parallel with ancient cultural rights.

Nor in this case does the SCC. They have made far too many biased decisions in favor of very sketchy FN pleas to be considered anywhere near what you suggest. Case in point: Jacklights and night hunting with spotlights / trucks / high powered rifles.

Cheers,
Nog

i'm not saying the system is perfect by any stretch, or that poor decisions don't still get passed; but having an independent group of judges using measured reasoning, tested with centuries of thought behind it, is by far better than Having legislative bodies alone, accountable only to a fickle, ignorant mob. I'll insist that a democratic system would be sunk quite quickly without it. Poor decisions can be appealed on merit and well placed faith in the system sees them corrected eventually.

[bloody bellies]

I don't know that much about it, so i'll defer to your knowledge surrounding it. I just remember there being a decade long conversation about the use of traditional tools in parallel with ancient cultural rights.





i'm not saying the system is perfect by any stretch, or that poor decisions don't still get passed; but having an independent group of judges using measured reasoning, tested with centuries of thought behind it, is by far better than Having legislative bodies alone, accountable only to a fickle, ignorant mob. I'll insist that a democratic system would be sunk quite quickly without it. Poor decisions can be appealed on merit and well placed faith in the system sees them corrected eventually.

A fickle ignorant mob is probably 95% of Canada that does not agree with what the courts and government decide to keep giving FN. Walk the street and get peoples opinions, this topic is always a conversation in EVERYONES household in Canada, and every conversation that I've heard not 1 person supports what the FN gets. I live right beside a Reserve and about 2 months ago at the local pub the local FN people where having a raffle night, and toonie toss, guess what it was for? To support them so they could take their kids to Disneyland, shall I go on, I shall, lets go back to 1992 aprox when sockeye was open on the Fraser, and there were road side sales for a buck a fish, the FN member that was selling these fish could sell them for a buck, cause he had around 2 thousand fish to sell, these are not rumors for as ive seen myself. Traditional hunting techniques, ya right, I may be mistaken but it looked like 50hp Yamahas on the backs of the canoes when hunting whales. Did not realize they had trucks when hunting buffalo, did not realize they had outboards on their canoes when netting fish, did not realize they sold fish, they traded, like I've said before we all as a whole need to somehow put an end to this ongoing fiasco before our kids/grandkids/great grand kids have no where to hunt nor fish, ill be 1 of the first in line if there is any kind of petition, ralley, or organization that actually stands up for people in the hunting/ fishing community to support.

[Corb89]

OK, ive read my fill of the stereo type bullshit....for those of you who dont know...I Corb89 Corben Clarkson am a status indian..the indian side of my family is from the west moberly reserve THE largest treaty territory in canada.
go on with your "liquor store" jokes...we're not all the same...i buy my hunting/fishing licences same as you....i follow provincial regulations better than alot of you racist assholes
im ashamed to be on this site with you whining ****s...im out! **** all of you