George Heyman NDP Candidate "Knocking at my Door"

[Bugle M In]

The definition of "place of consumption" is outlined in the regs. I certainly understand the sentiment of those that advocate taking the meat to placate the anti's. But honestly, that's not what the hunt is about. It's a trophy hunt and people shouldn't be ashamed of that when its conducted in the manner it is. It's heavily regulated, it provides benefits to bear research and game management, and it's conducted using means that are humane. That and nothing goes to waste in the bush.

I think the point your not seeing is the "ramification" it has already caused.
You don't need to convince a fellow hunter like me.
I hunt elk because I love the meat.
I hunt MDeer because I am looking for the challenge of finding the elusive "monster buck"
I bring the meat home and consume it when I do pull that trigger on MDeer.....but....
I don't pull the pin very often on deer because they don't carry the bone/challenge.
I will fire on any legal elk I have a tag for ( but ya....you dream it is a 350+ class bull!)
BUT......
You are loosing the support of people who would not oppose GBear hunt if they felt the meat was part of the goal.
(you will never convince vegans!)
And "There!!" is where you have "Lost your support" for GBear hunting in the future"....!!!!

Just because you feel no shame (which you shouldn't)......is not going to help you in this battle with getting support
from the general public.
And yes...it doesn't go to waste in the woods (I'm a hunter....but it's "not MY SUPPORT you NEED").....
Others don't see that out in the public.
You have to look at things from their point/feelings....and then figure out what's the best way to minimize those issue,
and then educate them on the things you are stating.
Not trying to bash you or put you down in any way....
I am just trying to help you help save the GBEAR hunt....I hope you can see it that way.

[Surrey Boy]

I completely disagree. It's wildlife management, and the sooner we as hunters change our mindset on that, the sooner we can convince the masses of what it is. Respectfully....

That's the point that I find goes farthest. Even more than "sustainable, organic, locally grown, selectively harvested, free range, non GMO, low-fat meat". What improves the esteem of hunters is how we keep nature in balance, and moderate the effects of civilization on wildlife.

[Bugle M In]

I completely disagree. It's wildlife management, and the sooner we as hunters change our mindset on that, the sooner we can convince the masses of what it is. Respectfully....

I think we all as hunters understand the "trophy hunt terminology" when it is used......
Sadly....Its not the best term or choice of word we as hunters came up with back in the day.
Unfortunately, "trophy" has stuck....and now with social internet media....has kinda created a problem ....
and created a quite "damaging" statement on a "stick board banner" for the anti's.

Either way "Trophy" is a word We understand fully n how it is used, and they understand how to use it "against us".

[Bugle M In]

on the topic of having to retreive meat from grizz bears, if it is "it must be brought to a domicile or butcher" then the GO's will be on board but if it is "it must be brought to your own home" (like to the USA or other foriegn country ) then the GO's will not be on board IMHO..

which way would you support? of the two meat retention options?

Agree...
GO wouldn't support meat retention back to USA...
But, maybe GO need to add to the pot to sweeten the "right to continue to gbear, if it is only looked at as a trophy hunt"....
maybe GO should retain the meat themselves...turn it into sausage....and supply it to "Food Banks".
(legally, there would probably need to be some testing....but hey...I shoot a wild boar in Germany, but before I can even
consume it myself, it has to be inspected ....organs etc somewhere qualified).
Ya, laugh at that I suppose, but when the hunt is banned one day....no more laughing then.

In one way, I would be fine without GO's in BC....let's face it...they and their clients truly are in the hunt for just
"bone and hide".....Trophy = Dollars$$.....not sustenance by any real means...
And, I'm still a bit pissed at the "allocation outcome....actually a lot pissed...
BUT..
We sort need the GO's....
We need the support of hunters to protect "our rights to hunt in the future"......WHY.....
Because they have a "Lobbyist Group" and are supported by many "Rich People" throughout the planet who don't want to lose their right to hunt "trophies in BC"
It's that money that will help us...SINCE...We don't have any ourselves or not funded for "Resident Hunters of BC".

HERE'S THE KICKER!!!! however.....

It's basically (IMO) because of GO's, that we Resident Hunters will slowly loss our rights to hunt.....
What do I mean (I can see the shit storm coming on this statement...but hey... it's a forum to speak opinion...respectfully)
Why....well, firstly....the loss of tags from the new allocation is a no-brainer...loss for BC Residents.
But, because GO's and their clients "truly hunt for trophy game, not meat", we sustenance hunters are thrown into the
same "melting pot by the public"....just like many people say "hunter illegally kills something"....but that is not a hunter...
that is called a poacher...but, we are still looked at by the general public as the same thing...we are end up being
"grouped together"!!!
Thing is....Resident Hunters "Intent/Reason To Hunt" is "totally different"!, then either GO/Client or Poacher.

We really should be "moving some big steps back from GO's"....way back....even beyond the shadows!!

Where we should be aligning ourselves is with the FN (yes...I just said that...)
At least they, FN, like us, hunt for Traditional Sustenance Reasons for most.
Also....they seem to have a pretty good "political force behind them" which make them a "Powerful Lobbyist".
And you know they aren't about to give up hunting for a camera.....not really anyways....they will just add the
"power of the camera dollar" to the inventory of rights they had...
And honestly, FN should pay attention to what I am trying to say here....yes...they don't need us right now....their doing
way better then I would have ever imagined as a youngster in/with Provincial/Federal government support and rights.
But, if Resident Hunters lose the right to hunt one day down the road........then they are next.....the snowball will increase
because residents, after losing their rights to hunt will then just say.. "if I can't he cant", and just join in the protest...
hard to believe...but that's how peoples mentalities roll when that kind of stuff takes effect.
So....what is making us Resident Hunters so "Needy"....simple....
We do not have an "True Sustenance Hunters Organization"...at least nothing I have seen so far.
GO's have tons of Organization's...Worldwide and with money...but, as said they "truly align themselves in their actions to the term ...TROPHY....
And after that Allocation Fiasco, it became apperent to me that other organizations, right here in BC, don't really align
themselves with us Resident Hunters.
I remember the WSS saying they couldn't get themselves involved....why...in a nutshell, they are just an organization to
"Help Wild Sheep"... and for all the legalities...can not get involved....AND..THAT'S FAIR!!!...I get it.
Where I really had to open my eyes was with the BCWF....
(now, before I light this brick of dynamite....I just want to say...."I REALLLY APPRECIATE" the efforts of many of the BCWF
members, many who are on this site, and who take 1000's of hours, of THEIR TIME, to try and contribute efforts for
WILDLIFE IN BC...thanks guys!!....BUT...that's the KICKER.....WILDLIFE FEDERATION....again....WILDLIFE)
Growing up, I always saw the BCWF stickers on vehicles....and always just thought...BC HUNTER/ANGLER.....
YES .....NO....SOMEWHAT......NOT COMLETELY......
Can't recall how it was posted to me from some BCWF "higher up's" during that "allocation period etc".....and ya....
I did get some "pretty speedy PM's"....when I began to call out certain aspects that were confusing me....and was getting
me frustrated...until it finally materialized and became clear in front of my eyes......
BCWF isn't really a BC resident hunter Organization....not by how it is "set up" ( I would have to go thru archives to see how
it was explained ....but there was some sort of ...should I say.....issue)
Yes, BCWF is more than likely all "BC Resident Hunters"...and they try in the way they can...to support us hunters....for sure,
but they "Can't involve themselves in issues, from what I understand, like GO organizations can,
and the way they "Can Obtain Money" to Operate........LOBBY...or more important....LACK OF LOBBY.
(Now...I will be getting some email, and corrections for sure....because I am not probably presenting exactly right)
BUT...in a nutshell......We really don't have a Hunters Organization here in BC...possibly even Canada...not one that
can acquire money and operate in the same "powerful manner the GOABC" has been doing.
And yes....having some sort of "Resident Hunters of BC Organization" scares the BCWF future.....because money donated to them...will now go to another group...and yes...there are some people on the BCWF payroll who would not like to lose that.
But...I have said this before....we need an "Organization" that is truly "OURS".......
We need the Money and the "VOICE" to stand on our own 2 feet, to carry some "real political clout" (if that is still even posible), to be able to not have the doors closed and have us "shut out" of "Sustenance Hunting Decisions" in BC, like
allocations, and continued GBear Hunting for food and predator/Prey management...etc.
I think many of us Residents feel we have had a voice all these years.....BUT....really...we have been in the shadows...
with nothing to say!!....no voice....NOTHING with any BITE...
(what's my proof.....??....)
For the last 30 years, WE have had to SWALLOW MORE CLOSURES, SHORTER AND SHORTER SEASONS, LOST OPPURTUNITIES/ALLOCATIONS....AND NOW....BE THREATEND TO LOSE THE RIGHT TO HUNT...
SO...I ask.....with all these organizations....all those hours........
WHY IS "HUNTING IN BC BECOMING EXTINCT"???
(man do I wish my inbox was completely full...really....)
I just have had enough....
Yes I started the thread, and didn't think that I would get so frustrated at things from just a simple question or two....
But, before I die, I really want to know, that hunting is supported and understood by the majority of the people on this
planet, that our future kids etc get to enjoy all the things we know exist out there when we are out there hunting...what
we see etc...to have that same benfit...to know what it takes to maintain wildlife, and the habitat it needs to thrive and
continue etc.....

I really believe that other "user groups"...like mountain cyclist, recreational hikers, recreational photgrapers and camper's...
DO NOT completely get it!!...yes, the love the pristine environment, the fresh air...but they don't see what is required to
maintain it beyond that...they are not 100% in touch with those creatures as they think they are....
Unless you are "Part of the Cycle.....you are Part of the Problem"!!....I really do belive that..
A total ban on hunting is still a way off, but as some already worry...that if they lose "trophy Grizz Hunting".....
that next is...what...sheep...followed by what...no elk, so no longer hunt them......and next thing you know, hunting gone...
maybe that is a fear that is 100% relevant....
If you do believe that scenario is 100% True...that if Gbear Hunting is banned under the term "trophy".....you better
start worrying...because I believe that days is coming, maybe not yet....but soon....and because you believed that
once Grizz Hunt is banned, that all other hunting will follow and fall like the GBear...hunting will come to a close..one day...
SO.....What you wanna do about...what are you going to do...how to you start to change the tide???
Same as always, for the last 30 + years....isn't that what they call being "Stupid"....
Doing the same thing over and over again....getting the same results.... or worsening....yet waiting for it to get better???
(This is not about who we vote for....it's irrelevant.....it's...what are we going to do to stop hunting from being banned)???

[Buck]

There is a fairly new lobby group and this needs to go big if we are going to protect hunting and fishing for residents . http://residentpriority.ca/

[Fisher-Dude]

I think we all as hunters understand the "trophy hunt terminology" when it is used......
Sadly....Its not the best term or choice of word we as hunters came up with back in the day.
Unfortunately, "trophy" has stuck....and now with social internet media....has kinda created a problem ....
and created a quite "damaging" statement on a "stick board banner" for the anti's.

Either way "Trophy" is a word We understand fully n how it is used, and they understand how to use it "against us".

The NDP is using the word to vilify all hunters, IMO.

They're stirring up a hornet's nest that has been relatively dormant for many years.

We haven't had this much anti-hunting sentiment in the news for a long time. Think about who has been using the "trophy" term in their platform to make hunters look like blood-crazed lunatics with guns, ready to kill anything and everything, just to nail the head to the wall and brag about it.

People need to wake the eff up and see how Horgan and his crew are labelling us, and how they've put all hunting under the microscope as they vie for the ignorant urban vote.

Why do you think I'm so pissed off at them on these threads? The NDP's actions are divisive and bad for all hunting. The NDP tries to placate "food hunters" ("sustenance hunters" they say - which is first nations hunting in all the literature I've read) but your average Vancouver latte sipper doesn't make the distinction, and the NDP knows it.

All hunters, be they meat hunters, selective hunters, or trophy hunters have been harmed by the NDP's campaign. Think about the war we've found ourselves in the past few months - it has never been worse for us.

[Whonnock Boy]

I agree. They have dropped the ball in regards to supporting resident hunters leaving us with mixed messages. But let's not forget what the Liberals have instigated, especially the turmoil within our own people in the last few months.

Think about the war we've found ourselves in the past few months - it has never been worse for us.

[Wild one]

Bugle M In

Many share your frustrations and you do make some valid points

One thing to consider in your thoughts on GOs and non resident hunters. The allocation issue is BS I will agree right off the start. This has brought forth a lot of myths and bad blood. Reality is yes a portion of non residents are here to hunt a mature animal as there main goal. What many resident hunters ignore is there is also come to BC to experience hunting BC or a species not available to them other wise not just in search of a trophy. There actually a fair amount of American hunters who do bring the meat home not just the horns/rack/skull/hide. I personally know Americans that hunt Canada often and bring meat home. Some GOs even sell hunts that they would call a meat hunt often for moose. Yes trophy hunting exists with guided hunts but would call all non residents trophy hunters who don't take the meat. Reality is non residents are hunters just like the rest of us the difference is they are legally obligated to hire a guide in BC

Yes there is issues with the GO industry and as resident hunters we need to stand our ground to keep things honest. Ignoring GOs and non residents as possible allies is not wise. We also should not be painting them all with the same brush as they are a mixed group of hunters just like resident hunters

I agree working with FN is wise. Truth of the matter is with their treaty rights have a strong voice. They can/do impact resident hunter opurtunity on a greater level than GOs. The Reality of it is their hunting rights are protected through treaties on a level they have little fear of loosing their hunting rights. I am a believer that educating FN on wildlife issues and working towards gaining FN support can go along ways. This is a hard pill for many RH to swallow but fighting FN is not going to gain RHs ground

Like it or not RH would be wise to work with both the above user groups. They both have proven to be superior at lobbying govt in regards to wildlife. There is good and bad within both of them but the same can be said about RHs. I know for a fact just as we point fingers at them they point the finger at RHs. Want to see a powerful voice and get the most benefits for BCs wildlife figure out how to get the 3 main users of BCs wildlife to play nice in the sandbox. At this time it seems to me there is not enough agreed upon give intake instead it is a fight against each others agendas

Right now with all the bad blood between the 3 user groups the govt can pick and choose who the acknowledged and beat around the bush rather than be forced to address wildlife issues.

Myself and many others can see the benefit of an orginization that strictly represented RHs right

[Bugle M In]

I think, if my statement is right...correct me if I am wrong....but...the BCWF can not "Contribute to Political Parties"....
correct???....which in the end...we call "Lobbying".
The term "Trophy" is another thing we as all hunters need to change when talking....it's a term that is gong to kick us in
the future.
I know some GO's over the years, and some really are "good folk".....others not....but the same can be said about some
of my fellow residents out in the field...
FN does not really need us... true....but not wise to keep restricting us resident hunters access....but they do...
GO's (GOABC) better stop looking at it from just "their interests"....or again....they will be the big looser....1st!.

I know Heyman and his talk with me is to a point "hypocritical"....
He was in Forestry....a "Renewable Resource".....just like hunting any species is and continue to be....
If his , NDP's, only intent was to remove the "Trophy" aspect of a Grizz hunt, I can see that...ethically, I agree.
But remember...we are hunters...we don't need to know where to draw a "hardline".....

I told Him I would post his discussion online....
I wanted to him to take see what input we would have etc.

This discussion with him only came about because of 2 things...
1) I didn't want to Vote NDP because they were "against hunting"
and
2) the most important thing that I was really wanting to address to him...was the lack of funding that in the end was
creating a "loss of habitat", thus the "loss of wildlife #'s" and that "that was the BIG ISSUE" in BC right now as far as it
pertains to the "Enviroment Aspect of BC"...

As for the City Latte Sippers....I hear ya...
I live amongst them daily, and all those "Self Righteos City Cyclists"....

Funny how hunting/killing a Renewavble Resource is against all their ethics etc....
Yet.....the majority of these people are also "Pro Choice", as am I if asked....yet...funny how
Abortion is not killing....but a right, a womans choice ....but....something is being "killed off"....

It's a crazy world, and I understand why many just shut the lid on the laptop, and just want to forget and say...
"Gone Hunting".

But I hope this thread does open some eyes here and forces us hunters to see we really "lack input" at a
Political Level...

FD...I know you care a lot....you spend a lot of timing sharing your input...even if others don't always agree, but tleast
itgives other's the incentive to "think" it out, and public discussion is a great way to come up with new thoughta and
ideas etc...
Yes, the NDP have created a hornet's nest, and because they at a "big party" comparatively to the Greens, they and
their platform can cause some real concerns on "Hunting in BC"

But one thing....this isn't just an NDP thing.....I am sure there are many in the Liberal Party who also share the
same opinion..."To Ban Hunting" outright...
"Towing the Party Line" is the only thing stopping those individuals right now.....but....what happens when
towing that party line becomes too big a political hot potato....
How do we know that we are not also electing other "Anti's" in each of our ridings....?????????????????????????????

I still fear the day is coming, and it will be too late....
And really....what did we as hunter's do about it....???

Thanks all...

[Whonnock Boy]

The Provincial body? Correct. Some, or maybe all regional bodies can, as as they are non-charitable.

the BCWF can not "Contribute to Political Parties"....
correct???