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Thread: The future of our wildlife management plans.

  1. #281
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by bownut View Post
    Interesting, I wonder if there is too much focus on the cougars and not enough on the wolves. The cats turn their eyes from primary to secondary prey and the wolves don't distinguished between the two.

    I have looked at wolf vs elk/moose studies to some degree and youtube is full of reports with all that's going on down south, but haven't read much on wolves and deer.

    Wonder how all the burns have effected the deer numbers, if we were to focus on the wolves?
    I am fully aware on how a Mule deer use the open line of sight for defence , I have been hunting them for 40 years. Still not convinced that it will help them much when you watch the tactical moves that wolves can perform in open country on Elk and Moose.

    My hunting partner watched Wolves drive a Mule Deer herd right down to the lake only to circle back up and wait until dark. The next morning there was a clean kill near the lake shore.
    How often is this happening with the amount of food that a pack needs?

    SO many factors to think about isn't there?
    There were very few wolves in the PD'O at that time.

    What that research showed is that wt deer pops hold cougar pops up and cougar are hard on mule deer particularly in ingrown habitat because they are far easier to kill when the habitat doesn't support their ecology.

    It's as complicated as you want to make it.

    Species do best in ecosystems similar to what they evolved in. That applies to mule deer, elk, moose, cougars, or wolves.

    Blow down and lines of sight match up well with mule deer ecology; the same applies to moose.

    Suggest you google mule deer evolution and mule deer ecology. Should help frame up your understanding of where they came from and how they deal with habitat/predator avoidance etc.
    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.

    Mandela

  2. #282
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    Apr 2011
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    I think before the biologist and management put all their eggs in the cougar/ mule deer basket they may want to consider that there may be a Joker in the deck.
    With very few studies on the wolf populations in BC and the liberal seasons we may never reach a true sustainable number.

    Like I said earlier "Management Needs To Be More Peripheral"

    Maybe the "Citizen Science" that Judy Steeves quoted in your RAPP APP Article may be more of a resource than management wants to believe?

  3. #283
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    Sep 2011
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    Fort Fraser BC
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Bownut, you keep mentioning the "liberal seasons", which, maybe they are. But they are much less liberal here in my area than they used to be.
    We used to have a short GOS mulie doe season, had any mulie buck from sept 10 to nov 20, and 4 points after that for the remainder of November. There is no late season now at all, no doe season (with the exception of a youth season) and most of the mule deer season is restricted to 4 points. There seems to be fewer deer now than we used to have, although I couldn't prove it for certain and have no hard data to back that up.
    The past decade or two saw an explosion of the wolf population, and a few real tough winters, and widespread pine beetle logging. I think those factors play a much larger role than regulation restrictions ever will. Especially when you consider regulated hunters are limited to a short period of the year, when many of the other factors are an issue year round.

    Maybe restricting hunter opportunity is not going to make the difference you seem to think it will? I used to think that when deer populations were down, we needed to change regulations to limit harvest, but it has not been making the difference here that I had hoped to see. At least , not from my perspective.


    Darcy

  4. #284
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by dellis View Post
    Bownut, you keep mentioning the "liberal seasons", which, maybe they are. But they are much less liberal here in my area than they used to be.
    We used to have a short GOS mulie doe season, had any mulie buck from sept 10 to nov 20, and 4 points after that for the remainder of November. There is no late season now at all, no doe season (with the exception of a youth season) and most of the mule deer season is restricted to 4 points. There seems to be fewer deer now than we used to have, although I couldn't prove it for certain and have no hard data to back that up.
    The past decade or two saw an explosion of the wolf population, and a few real tough winters, and widespread pine beetle logging. I think those factors play a much larger role than regulation restrictions ever will. Especially when you consider regulated hunters are limited to a short period of the year, when many of the other factors are an issue year round.

    Maybe restricting hunter opportunity is not going to make the difference you seem to think it will? I used to think that when deer populations were down, we needed to change regulations to limit harvest, but it has not been making the difference here that I had hoped to see. At least , not from my perspective.


    Darcy
    Yes,, this^^^^^ for the most part is what I think too.
    I think its much more than the "liberal season" way to many other factors at play and I dont want my/your seasons curtailed because of some of these other factors because, I think its gonna be good times again once the missing forest grows back.
    I dont like the doe season for wt, what do I know? even though I haven't shot a wt buck in 3 years I know it will come back in a relatively short time if the doe season were to end. I'm willing to give it a chance if it helps the Mule deer.
    I do appreciate the info Goatguy posted for our perusing.

  5. #285
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by bownut View Post
    I think before the biologist and management put all their eggs in the cougar/ mule deer basket they may want to consider that there may be a Joker in the deck.
    With very few studies on the wolf populations in BC and the liberal seasons we may never reach a true sustainable number.

    Like I said earlier "Management Needs To Be More Peripheral"

    Maybe the "Citizen Science" that Judy Steeves quoted in your RAPP APP Article may be more of a resource than management wants to believe?
    So, your theory is the problem with mule deer is wolves and liberal seasons? Care to flesh that out a bit?

    Citizen science is part of what is being worked on. The combination of tools should be useful in the long-run to monitor populations. The interesting thing about citizen science is it can be more susceptible to the issues you have identified in your complaints about the hunter harvest and wildlife inventory systems. I think what you're saying is people should be able to contribute information and be a part of management and I agree, but you should know that there are challenges with that - the same challenges you are complaining about.
    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.

    Mandela

  6. #286
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    428

    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
    So, your theory is the problem with mule deer is wolves and liberal seasons? Care to flesh that out a bit?

    Citizen science is part of what is being worked on. The combination of tools should be useful in the long-run to monitor populations. The interesting thing about citizen science is it can be more susceptible to the issues you have identified in your complaints about the hunter harvest and wildlife inventory systems. I think what you're saying is people should be able to contribute information and be a part of management and I agree, but you should know that there are challenges with that - the same challenges you are complaining about.
    You know that there are so many thing that contribute to the state we are in, for sure. I feel sorry for the BCWF and all its efforts that the Organization has put into it.
    Over the years they have created some great things: the BOW program, Wilderness Watch, and the fight for the hunting community has stretch many to the limits.
    The events that have unfolded over the past few years could not have been predicted logging practices to remove the unwanted pine beetle, massive burns of winter range and a increasing wolf population, etc.

    The timing of our hunting seasons with all these unpredictable challenges has left many wondering what the future will hold, and frustration will build.
    If anything should come out of this I hope it's a better understanding of all involved.

    I know that it will be a long hard road and only hope the Government will meet the funding requests of the BCWF, and other groups, and the result will be a better understand of what is needed.
    With many new faces at the table, maybe we will get the Round Table needed and happening to resolve our problems.

    It has been easy for me to criticize for my chair, sometimes productive, sometime not.
    Its time to burry the hatchet and say keep up the efforts that we all believe in. I hope we can all be a bit more understanding when questioned.

    Hind site is 20/20
    Last edited by bownut; 02-22-2017 at 09:53 PM.

  7. #287
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by bownut View Post
    You know what their so many thing that contribute to the state we are in for sure. I feel sorry for the BCWF and all its efforts that the Organization has put into it.
    Over the years they have created some great things the BOW program, Wilderness Watch, the fight for the hunting community has stretch many to the limits.
    The events that have unfolded over the past few years could not have been predicted logging practices to remove the unwanted pine beetle, massive burns of winter range.
    a increasing wolf population and so on.

    The timing of our hunting seasons with all these unpredictable changes has left many wondering what the future will hold, and frustration will build.
    If anything should come out of this I hope it's a better understanding of all involved.

    I know that it will be a long hard road and only hope the Government will meet the request that the BCWF for funding so we can better understand what is needed.
    With many new faces at the table maybe we will get the Round Table happening and resolve our problems.

    It has been easy for me to criticize for my chair, sometimes productive, sometime not.
    Its time to burry the hatchet and say keep up the efforts, and lets all be a bit more understanding when questioned.

    Hind site is 20/20
    Understand the frustration - everyone feels the same way. Some people working on big picture solutions, others going back to an empty well.

    Questions is: Do we want to fix it?

    BC needs a new wildlife management model to fix all of the issues wildlife faces.
    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.

    Mandela

  8. #288
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    region 9
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    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by 338win mag View Post
    Yes,, this^^^^^ for the most part is what I think too.
    I think its much more than the "liberal season" way to many other factors at play and I dont want my/your seasons curtailed because of some of these other factors because, I think its gonna be good times again once the missing forest grows back.
    I dont like the doe season for wt, what do I know? even though I haven't shot a wt buck in 3 years I know it will come back in a relatively short time if the doe season were to end. I'm willing to give it a chance if it helps the Mule deer.
    I do appreciate the info Goatguy posted for our perusing.
    As mentioned in many other threads, overall the short wt doe season has been beneficial, and is healthier overall for the wt populations...and in some areas where the wt population had previously exploded and completely taken over, because the doe season is now curtailing their numbers a bit, the mule deer are slowly making a recovery, from what I hear anyway....I recommend reading the book 'whitetail advantage', the science behind proper whitetail management is very interesting...cheers

  9. #289
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    428

    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
    Understand the frustration - everyone feels the same way. Some people working on big picture solutions, others going back to an empty well.

    Questions is: Do we want to fix it?

    BC needs a new wildlife management model to fix all of the issues wildlife faces.
    Its all about fixing it thats why I have been voicing my concerns and giving you and many others my feel on the present situation.
    It has been many years since I have been involved at the table representing wildlife, lately my life has not allowed me to be involved.

    Years back the club I belonged to wanted to stop supporting the BCWF and I was one of the members who objected to it. I felt it was
    important to support their mandate.
    Lately every report I have read from the ministry start with "Increasing Hunter Opportunity and Seasons with Sustainable Harvest"
    The frustration lies in the fact that the Sustainability is uncertain, there lies the frustration.

    The Drivers are so complex and there isn't enough funded man power that can come close to understanding it.
    The model needs to recognize the input that the hunting community can offer. Science or not they are the eyes of the mountains.
    Last edited by bownut; 02-23-2017 at 05:20 PM.

  10. #290
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    Mar 2004
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    N. Okanagan
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    14,182

    Re: The future of our wildlife management plans.

    bownut, first off, can you agree with the science that deer pops are being managed to a sustainable reproductive rate with the current hunting regulations, in regard to buck/doe ratios and fawns hitting the ground ?
    That seems to be the big hurdle here
    Never say whoa in the middle of a mud hole

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