Whitetail Regulations in Region 8

[aggiehunter]

..lots of locals and hunters I speak with have the same sentiments about not seeing many WT's..but then..why would you beleive a bunch of hunters hey!

[GoatGuy]

My experience was the Whitetail population is significantly down and the Mule deer population is up in the southern sections of MU's 8-1, 8-12, and 8-14. I have successfully hunted these areas for 40 years harvesting . We covered many areas which included Boundary Creek, Wallace Creek, Christian Valley, Anarchist Mountain, Rock Mountain, Ingram Creek, Nicolson Creek, Meyers Creek, Johnstone Creek, Bauldy Mountain, Sidley Meadows, Henderson Creek, Kelly River, Wadell Creek, Beaverdell, and . We saw MANY Mule deer and few Whitetail at all elevations and all locations. Many of these location's deer populations are either predominantly Whitetail or are both species. I harvested a larger Mule deer buck on Rock Mountain FSR. A location that I have harvested 9 Whitetail bucks and only 1 other Mule deer buck over the years. I only saw a one Whitetail doe and fawn Vs over 50 Mule deer in the area.

I 'think' it is generally accepted across hunters and wildlife managers that mule deer in 8-1, 8-12, 8-14 and 8-15 are well below historic levels. There have been several flights that have demonstrated the buck only hunting is not a contributory factor and that ratios are well above conservation related thresholds. It does however appear density is relatively low and recruitment isn't all that great. All of these folks (managers, hunters) can agree that habitat loss, forest ingrowth and fire suppression have all contributed to this. There are several things managers and hunters can't agree on, but the above are commonalities.

I also 'think' that it is impossible for mule deer in that country to be 'up' in one year.


Lastly, I 'think' this is one of the challenges with making a snapshot judgement based on a few days or weeks of hunting.

[HarryToolips]

There are always two approaches to wildlife management: beliefs and science.

Unfortunately, using beliefs as a core value isn't necessarily the best approach as it has several pitfalls. The most prominent problem with the 'people I know' is most of them will swear up and down they're worried about wildlife, but when you get down to it all they want to do is shoot a big deer - remember, it has to be bigger than their buddies. These people will pull the 'conservation card', but when science comes up and the realities of wildlife management come out, the bottom line is these people are worried about themselves and their opportunity. They don't want to see other hunters in the woods, and they want to see a pile of deer, big ones standing on the side of the road. They want everyone else regulated or removed from the woods. Funniest part about it is, when you get down to the nitty gritty, the 'people I know' who want to shoot big bucks, will shoot a little buck or the first buck every time........... it's usually followed by some excuse like, 'we thought it was the big one', but after 30 years that excuse gets old.

What gets even better about this is the people who want to see 'big bucks' want to close the any buck season. A 4 pts season actually creates fewer older age class deer (see none), and is probably the worst management strategy for deer. There will literally be nothing over 1 1/2 years old at the end of the hunting season, except for those 2 and 3pts that will live to a ripe old age and proportionally do the majority of the breeding. If the 'big buck' hunters wanted big deer they'd be pushing for access restrictions but they don't - why? Because they want to be able to drive all over the country and shoot big bucks. People want an opportunity to shoot a big buck but they don't want to be regulated - they just want everyone else to be regulated.

And that is where beliefs fail. The 'big buck' people want something, but aren't willing to be regulated for it. Alternatively, they want everyone else regulated for an option that want make a 'big buck'. Seems pretty insane, eh?


You don't have to ask people on this site about science, there are researchers and biologists across North America who can tell you how deer work if you so choose. The alternative is to stick to your beliefs.

I definitely agree with what your are saying Goat Guy, but it's good to listen to hunters as well, especially hunters THAT ARE IN THE BUSH and off the road, like myself and other senior hunters I know who have noticed a decline in WT numbers in the bush..I agree that the doe season is good for the population (Read Whitetail Advantage, a good read), so your right maybe if they de-activate some roads and hunter access it'll help all species out, rather than cuttin the seasons down..with regards to the mulies, a recent survey by the MOE in the Princeton area found a buck to doe ratio of 12 bucks to 100 doe: not good when the target is 20:100, I'd say that's due to too much hunting pressure wouldn't you?? So again, gotta de-activate roads once replanting clearcuts is done..

[ruger#1]

Lots of factors to think about. One that I always liked is snow. We used to get early snows. And that would bring the deer down. This year it is still 18c in 8-12 and 8-14. Why would deer want to leave their summer grounds. Last year dad and I couldn't find any whitetails until we got a foot of snow. Then we couldn't believe all the tracks and deer we seen. It was like night and day. Global warming and weather are other factors in the equation.

[ruger#1]

I definitely agree with what your are saying Goat Guy, but it's good to listen to hunters as well, especially hunters THAT ARE IN THE BUSH and off the road, like myself and other senior hunters I know who have noticed a decline in WT numbers in the bush..I agree that the doe season is good for the population (Read Whitetail Advantage, a good read), so your right maybe if they de-activate some roads and hunter access it'll help all species out, rather than cuttin the seasons down..with regards to the mulies, a recent survey by the MOE in the Princeton area found a buck to doe ratio of 12 bucks to 100 doe: not good when the target is 20:100, I'd say that's due to too much hunting pressure wouldn't you?? So again, gotta de-activate roads once replanting clearcuts is done..

I will also add. No quads off road.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I definitely agree with what your are saying Goat Guy, but it's good to listen to hunters as well, especially hunters THAT ARE IN THE BUSH and off the road, like myself and other senior hunters I know who have noticed a decline in WT numbers in the bush..I agree that the doe season is good for the population (Read Whitetail Advantage, a good read), so your right maybe if they de-activate some roads and hunter access it'll help all species out, rather than cuttin the seasons down..with regards to the mulies, a recent survey by the MOE in the Princeton area found a buck to doe ratio of 12 bucks to 100 doe: not good when the target is 20:100, I'd say that's due to too much hunting pressure wouldn't you?? So again, gotta de-activate roads once replanting clearcuts is done..

You are right that the buck to doe ratio is below the target in the Princeton area. It is one of the hardest hit areas in Region 8 due to the proximity to the lower mainland. Changes are likely to happen and decommissioning roads like you mentioned is a very good option....however; low buck to doe ratios like you mentioned aren't low enough to affect the mulw deer populations. You will need to get well down below 10:100 for a several years in a row to start a downward trend in the populations. We manage to 20:100 for other "social" reasons.

SSS

[sawmill]

Around here the Whities are doing fine.I have seen 12 does in two quick morning look abouts and all had twins except for one old doe with a single and one with 3.All the mulies live in town.They are doing fine too.

Couple more weeks and the Big Bucks start getting dumb.

[HarryToolips]

You are right that the buck to doe ratio is below the target in the Princeton area. It is one of the hardest hit areas in Region 8 due to the proximity to the lower mainland. Changes are likely to happen and decommissioning roads like you mentioned is a very good option....however; low buck to doe ratios like you mentioned aren't low enough to affect the mulw deer populations. You will need to get well down below 10:100 for a several years in a row to start a downward trend in the populations. We manage to 20:100 for other "social" reasons.

SSS

Well that's positive! Hope the rest of the region isn't gettin hit as hard as it appears to be because of higher numbers of hunters..thanks for the info bud..

[dana]

Many hunters seem to believe that what they themselves experience during hunting season is real fact. They don't see whitetail does lollygagging around anymore during hunting season so therefore the whitetail population is in a major decline. If hunters actually paid attention to things in their areas outside of hunting season they would form different opinions. I'll give you an example. A couple years ago they opened up a GOS whitetail doe season here in Region 3. Around where I live, whitetails are very pocketed up. They can be seen almost anywhere but they seem to be seen a lot in only certain pockets. There was one pocket in particular that you could see numerous whitetails year round and numerous locals where aware of this pocket. Day 1 of the brand new season 4 whitetail does where killed by locals. Day 2, not a whitetail was found. They vanished. You would swear that the herd had all been slaughtered. The entire rest of the season no one was seeing whitetails where they always saw whitetails. Winter came in and I continued to work in the same area every day. I can tell ya those girls didn't poke their heads out of the thick stuff until February. 1 day of seeing their girlfriends get shot at on Oct 10th put the fear into them and they didn't back out until Feb. If you were a causal observer, you'd swear a bunch of 40 somethings from the Island came in on their quads and killed every last whitetail. Not the case though. Only 4 were killed by locals. Perhaps 1 or 2 more that I never heard about. But not gobs and gobs of does slaughtered. Nope. They are just weary little critters that disappear when they are hunted.

[one-shot-wonder]

what is effecting Whitetail populations and where are the effects most seen?

You didn't like my other responses to your other questions, so I will answer this question with a question.....what is all your local knowledge telling you is effecting the WT populations? A) Hunters? B)Predators? C)Habitat degradation? D) Vehicle Collisions E)All the Above