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Warning to bc sheep hunters.
https://i.imgur.com/Bj5ZrkEl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/v2pYZY0l.jpg
I enjoy reading the many threads on this site outlining people’s happy accomplishments and hard work. However, this thread is a warning to all hunters regarding a recent occurrence that has happened in our community to a young hunter. In 2016 a 16 year old went Stone Sheep hunting in Northern BC with his Father and a Family Friend. They were fortunate enough to shoot not one but TWO TREMENDOUS B&C Rams. One of these rams was the young man's first ram himself. When they got back to Kamloops they took them in to get CI’d as we all would. The first ram was put on the jig, both lamb tips extending well beyond the bridge of it’s nose and verified to be a legal ram. Now when the Kamloops Bio aged this ram he aged it at 9 years old when the ram is VERY CLEARLY 11. He missed not 1 but 2 years of growth! HOWEVER, the ram was legal and he was taking it home. Now the second Ram goes onto the jig as the young man looks on. Double Broomed and just a hair over 16” bases. Yes you read correctly, 16” bases on a Stone Sheep. As the ram had broomed both of its lamb tips it did not break nose and was shot on age as it was very clearly 8 years old MINIMUM. The Biologist starts to Count: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7….7.5. He then turns to the young man and says he would like to get a second opinion. He returns to the room with a Kamloops CO (Not Biologist) for a second opinion which yielded the same number 7.5 years of age. They tell the young man that he has shot an illegal sheep and that they are confiscating the ram. Despite trying to reason with the Biologist in the room and showing him that the ram cannot physically be 7-7.5 years of age as they say, the ram is confiscated.
Fast Forward 2 years of Legal matters and a 3 day Court Case.
The Province has it’s “Expert Witness”, the region 6 Biologist. The young man and his father have their Expert Witness Dr. Valerius Geist, a Biologist that has spent his entire life studying sheep in the wild and putting on aging seminars to teach both the public and also teach biologists in the university setting.
The Result: The Judge did not overturn the Province’s decision based on a "balance of probabilities”, meaning that in the Judge’s eyes he was unsure whether the province or the defendant had proved their case. Unfortunately the truth and facts about sheep aging fell on deaf ears for 3 days.
I am directing attention to this matter because this is something that should not go unnoticed. For all those with Facebook please check out our friend and world renowned Sheep Guide Clay Lancaster’s post on the matter as his opinion and the comments of various well known hunters are voiced. If the link does not work, check out Clay Lancaster's Facebook page to read the story and comments.
https://www.facebook.com/clay.lancaster.10?ref=br_tf&epa=SEARCH_BOX
Both he and a handful of other professional hunting guides have eagerly voiced their opinion regarding the ram in question and every one of them agrees this is a legal ram. If nothing else changes regarding this case we want to get the word out regarding the decision and raise awareness about the matter at hand. Mistakes can be made by ANYONE, even people in power and Governmental authorities, however it takes good people to admit when they are wrong. Unfortunately in this case there are no “Good People” on the other side and they are hanging a 16 year old out to dry. It’s embarrassing.
In conclusion, this message is not written to be “Hate Mail” directed at anyone but rather a message to the public. A warning that right now it’s not just the Anti hunting and uneducated parties that are working against outdoorsmen and women but that it is those in Government too. The same people that are suppose to be teaching and setting an example for the next generation.
Please Share.
PS. Here is how a very well respected Sheep guide that has guided over 100 Rams has aged the ram in Question.
https://i.imgur.com/mLRIZBbl.png
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
I’m not a sheep guy so can’t comment on whether or not that ram is legal but if it is that’s a travesty
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
I am not a sheep hunter and no expert on aging sheep but if I am understanding correct in the last diagram if you use only the existing horn it only shows 7.5 years of growth
Is this correct?
If so for legal purposes the bio can only use the existing horn to age the sheep even if it’s a broomed off older ram. Can’t expect non existent horn to be used for aging purposes
If the existing horn shows more than 7.5 years ignore what I have to say. My knowledge with sheep aging is limited to what I have been shown on mounts from friends who hunt them
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Agree with the lines in the last picture, there has to be growth at the base for the current year. So either 7 or 8, depending on how much credit is given to the broomed off portion.
If Govt claims the first ring at the tip is actually the first years growth, they had better have supporting evidence from rams in the same area sporting similar size lamb tips, with similar large circumference
Reaaly surprised Geist would suggest that maybe two or more years are broomed off.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Obvious 8.5 year! Any hunter/guide would shoot this ram on age!
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
WO you are correct, and in fact the reg does state 'as evidenced by true horn annuli...'
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
You're correct about the visible horn annuli. But when you look at the circumference around the broomed portion of the horn and compare that to what the printed literature says, you will see that it is over 2-3x the size of what a 1 year old ram would be thus suggesting the first visible annuli to be at least 2 years of age. If you are just to look at a 1 year old ram/lamb and see the amount of horn protruding from its head you often won't even see it past the hair however they are saying that this lamb at one year had bases as big as you see in the picture at the first visible annuli when that is physically impossible. A little lamb does have that much space on top of its head to fit those.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
The first annulus, even on unbroomed sheep is often hard to detect, on a heavily broomed ram it may be absent. Herein lies the danger in shooting a short 8 year old ram on age alone.
The regulations are clear the annulus must be present, not implied by mass or brooming.
This ram clearly is 8, but by the letter of the law, does not meet the requirements.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Don't really have much to add but would find it interesting to see the results if every other bio/inspector were to make a legality call on this sheep with no prior information. How much variation would there be?
I think it is the variation in regulatory systems that sometimes make the decisions hard to except.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
I would say this ram falls under the same category as an elk that broke of its 6th point you can tell the tine was there but with it missing it falls short of legal requirements
I think most would agree it’s 8+year old ram but it falls shy of physical legally required evidence
Sorry but I have to respect the bio’s call on this one
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild one
I would say this ram falls under the same category as an elk that broke of its 6th point you can tell the tine was there but with it missing it falls short of legal requirements
I think most would agree it’s 8+year old ram but it falls shy of physical legally required evidence
Sorry but I have to respect the bio’s call on this one
Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
I don't have anything to add really,
But I will say, as a hunter going Into my third year only, it's posts like this that keep me away from hunting some of the species BC has to offer !
Maybe as the years pass I'll feel more confident in my abilities but for now I wouldn't even want to begin having the burden of aging a moving animal like this, when it can literally come down to personal in
Interpretation.. it's hard enough to count 4 points on a mule deer let alone age a sheep based on growth lines !
I'll let all you brave folks put in that hard word.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Boy that sucks.
Clearly broomed off and would have been 8.5.
Glad I don't have the passion (or physical ability) to go and hunt them anymore.
I feel bad for the kid, but seeing the regs, it did not qualify.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Is there not any other way to age sheep like their teeth? Just as a double check in situations like this were he was obv broomed off?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Truly feel for this young guy, tough lesson to learn, but if there is a silver lining at least social media has been exceptionally kind and shared a lot of empathy with him
having only been on 4 sheep hunts myself, and only 1 trip with a potential legal ram, can fully appreciate his thought process at the time, but based on the wording of the regs can also understand why the inspector made his decision
Mountain Sheep - Full Curl Thinhorn Ram - means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane. Do not use yearly horn growth annuli to determine the age of a ram in the field, because “false” annuli may be present
I haven't read what penalty or hunting suspension the kid suffered? The lack of incisor tooth is interesting, even if the ram was determined to be legal, would there still be a fine for leaving the incisor on the mountain? from the regs:
COMPULSORY INSPECTIONCompulsory Inspectors will not complete thecompulsory inspection unless ALL informationand parts are submitted and able to becollected
"Jex cited his department’s use of more modern studies, tooth age analysis and X-rays, although the judge noted he had no formal training in interpreting X-rays. He did provide extensive data sets and graphs from his department’s records and reported the plaintiff had not submitted an incisor tooth for analysis, failing to add to the required burden of proof.
The final judgement said it was “not a straight-forward exercise” due to the experts’ profound disagreements but ruled against Crawford, stating the failure to submit the incisor tooth had added to the judge’s view he had not established “on a balance of probabilities” the ram was eight years old."
https://www.sookenewsmirror.com/news...return-of-ram/
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Unfortunately even the BC regs stipulate "True horn Annuli" not Visible horn annuli and that is where the discrepancy lies. There are hundreds of Plugged rams across the province with 7 visible annuli. I ended up shooting a very large ram the next year that only had 7 visible annuli and it was aged at 8.5 years old. Same mountain, same cohort of sheep, same genetics, same age. As for the teeth, unfortunately both jaws were left in the mountains as 2016 was the first year of mandatory teeth submission. However cutting and aging teeth is as subjective as aging horn annuli and often cannot yield a definitive age. There is no literature to back up aging of horns based on lamb tip growth by x ray and all x rays shown to the court were harder to age then looking at the horn themselves. Very tough situation.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Dam!
I feel bad for the kid too.
I just dont get common sence some times.
Some say 1st anuli at tip 2.5 yrs. Others dont.
True 7.5 is obvious ...... But in tight to the skull the anuli get stacked like on top each other and are hard to clearly identify.
This Ram was taken to the actual Bio.....not one of the misinformed part time inspectors..... Im disappointed along with you.
All that said.....its a tough call to put the hammer down on this guy when 7 are shown not 8.
Landcasters experience of over 100 Rams.... Geists experience these should count for something.
IMO...... I think the Bio and Judge got this one WRONG.
Tough loss to the young fellow.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
"True" over "Visible" annuli is a great argument.
Something the Ministry may need to revisit.
The lack of tooth doesn't help either.
This is one of those cases I hate hearing about as I don't think anybody had a bad intent in this case.
(Far different than that 1 hunter taking a record ram in the Yukon, but was only to hunt in BC)
The intent there was obvious.
I have seen several bull elk taken that I would never have taken.
2 of them might be arguable as to if that 6th point (if you could call it that?) made it legal.
The other was one the definitely would not have passed at all but the hunter was adamite it was legal.
I just leave it to the CO's to figure out if they ever did get checked on their drive out.
Hopefully in this case the courts showed some sort of empathy for young guy and the ministry as well and
didn't make him suffer to severe of consequences?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Tough pill to swallow, the regs state "True Horn Annuli" but I mean, come on. That's an 8.5 year old ram, maybe older.
When you have guys like Dustin Roe, Clay Lancaster and Valerius Geist all in agreement, that has to count for something I would think.
Any idea on the penalty? Hopefully not anything ridiculous. Also hope this experience doesn't turn a young kid off sheep hunting and all the great that comes with it.
My one thought that comes of this is the thought process for others heading into the mountains, theres many great, broomed rams that are taken. But after reading this, a guy could walk up on a band of rams which has 2 legal, a 10 year old broomed(just below the bridge), and a 7 year old tipped ram(barely over the bridge). With knowing this story and having a fear of loosing the broomed ram like in this case, guys could choose to harvest the younger ram. Which to me isn't right, the oldest ram should always be taken over the younger. Hopefully that makes sense.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
The call on that sheep is a tuff deal.
Without a doubt the ram was 8+ years old....but the annuli to show that are not there.
Bill Jex could only make the call that he did in this case...going by the visible annuli the ram is 7+.
It’s too bad a tooth hadn’t been pulled...but there can be variances there as well.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
steel_ram
Not wanting to stray too far from the op, but does that work both ways? If a mature bull moose has broken of all but a chunk of one antler, can it be "legally" classed as an immature?
Immature for a fact as told me by a CO in PG. this was a voluntary inspection of mature bull with broken/deformed antlers that only showed 2 countable points on one side. His ruling was Mature, yes but legal by tine count. No charge or even warning.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
IIRC when the retrained the compulsory inspectors a few years ago, I thought that if the estimated groomed length was greater than 2” then the next visible annuli would be considered the second.
If what we all consider the third annuli is a second year “bulge” then the lengths to the 3 annuli are off the normal charts ....even for a B&C ram.
Having said all of this, I want to get at least 9 years on a ram before pulling the pin on a short ram.
SSS
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Can we see a picture of the Horns without the cape?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Question for you sheep guys. Typically are double broomed rams around 8 years or older or can you expect a younger ram to be broomed?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Seems a bit complex. Glad to know all of this, as I realize I have a ton to learn before even thinking about sheep hunting. Feel bad for the kid.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
So there’s an area that is known for huge growth (most prevalent on the first growing season) which results in an unusually long lamb tip; just food for thought. The area does also have great mass as well.
From a bio standpoint, it would be hard to age on what they cannot see. It’s only assumptions and educated guesses after that.
My rule, if shooting on age and there’s ANY uncertainty is to pass on 8 year olds. Maybe it’s being cautious but I’d rather pass than shoot an underaged sheep and lose it. In my rookie sheep year, two days into my sheep career, I passed on a ram I counted 8 rings on over and over. Two days of following the group around at 300 yards. Looking back I know his lamb tips were missing in the broomed off section. I was being over cautious forsure but I was young and had no experience to back it. It can be tricky business shooting on age....
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kopper
So there’s an area that is known for huge growth (most prevalent on the first growing season) which results in an unusually long lamb tip; just food for thought. The area does also have great mass as well.
From a bio standpoint, it would be hard to age on what they cannot see. It’s only assumptions and educated guesses after that.
My rule, if shooting on age and there’s ANY uncertainty is to pass on 8 year olds.
It can be tricky business shooting on age....
The last 2 sentences pretty well sum it up.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Foxton Gundogs
Immature for a fact as told me by a CO in PG. this was a voluntary inspection of mature bull with broken/deformed antlers that only showed 2 countable points on one side. His ruling was Mature, yes but legal by tine count. No charge or even warning.
the reason 'immature' was removed and now it is only tine count. They don't care if one or two fall through the cracks, the tine count is the definative defensable regulation.
Just like this ram. the regs say 'as evidenced by true horn annuli' implying they have to be there to count.
BJ has been giving sheep aging seminars for years at the WSSoBC convention, this has been discussed ad nauseum
Whats also scary about this situation and the posts on CL's FB is all the guys saying they would shoot the same ram.
This isn't the first time a ram like this has been deemed illegal and not the last apparently.
Its not like someone moved the goal posts for this one
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whitlers
Question for you sheep guys. Typically are double broomed rams around 8 years or older or can you expect a younger ram to be broomed?
expect anything, never say never. Missing tips can be the result of a few causes, actual brooming, breakage, deformity
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boxhitch
the reason 'immature' was removed and now it is only tine count. They don't care if one or two fall through the cracks, the tine count is the definative defensable regulation.
Just like this ram. the regs say 'as evidenced by true horn annuli' implying they have to be there to count.
BJ has been giving sheep aging seminars for years at the WSSoBC convention, this has been discussed ad nauseum
Whats also scary about this situation and the posts on CL's FB is all the guys saying they would shoot the same ram.
This isn't the first time a ram like this has been deemed illegal and not the last apparently.
Its not like someone moved the goal posts for this one
Both BJ and CL have BOTH done the horn aging for the BC Sheep show the last two years yet they come to different conclusions. Dr. Geist also spent YEARS teaching those same bios while they were going through school. What is more is nobody looks at more rams then Sheep guides themselves and when you read the comments on Clay's FB post you can see some world renowned sheep guides aging it and saying they would have pulled the trigger also. In the end a little common sense can go a long ways.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
16 inch bases = large lamb tips. I’m going to have to agree with the bio on this one. My question is why not let the kid shoot the legal one?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
being from a forestry background, it makes me think of someone counting 20 tree rings on a stump 10 feet in the air and stating the tree is 20 years old....
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Over the years, I have talked to a number of CO's regarding aging Sheep. The consistent response from everyone of them was , don't shoot a ram based on age unless you have a lot of experience, and even then be cautious. They also said you should always use horn length as the final determining factor. Things like false annuli, can bite you, and usually the CO has the final say. Yes Sheep hunting is a tough game, but if you have to spend a lot of time trying to assess horn length, then you are probably better to pass than shoot
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Thank you for the courage to post this exellent post.
When at the WSSBC in kamloops they were telling us the Province has a stone sheep expert She lives up north and from horn length, bases..etc she can determine its age exactly...pretty tough when VG isnt given credibility enough. .
The concept of annuli, and length is used to determain ?.....mature ram..but those are the rules damn it..
In 2009 looking over 11 rams..sorted it out to 3..one was wide and definatly over the nose bridge..but ugly..imo
The one I harvested was 15 plus bases x 39..however dropped so low he just barely broke the bridge of the nose..I believe from memory he was 8 but I shit razor blades walking up to my ram...ihad watched for 2 hours to correctly judge length age was inpossible withe even Swarovski at 60x..
The CO too put the ram in the jig..he made it both ways age and length however it IS INDEED a situation for an abundance of caution..Scott repeatadly reminded me if in doubt walk...
Shit happens unfortunatley.
Srupp
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Change the regs.
Right now every 8 year old ram is NOT a legal ram. So when the regs say legal rams are 8 years old it is kind of contradictory. Regs should say: a legal ram is full curl or has 8 growth rings on the horns.
Leave age and years out of it and just go by growth rings or curl.
Technically the law right now has nothing to do with age but only what is VISIBLE by the rings. Just make that even more clear in the regs. Maybe even mention that broomed off rams with out 8 rings are not legal.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
I wouldn’t shoot that ram.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kddowds
Obvious 8.5 year! Any hunter/guide would shoot this ram on age!
Interesting comment, you can only speak for your self. Ive hunted sheep, guided sheep, shot sheep but from what I see in this picture would not of shot this sheep.
Yes its a beautiful ram, but again from what can see in the picture would not of shot based on age.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Would there be any reason to consider adding any double broomed ram to the regs as legal? Again I'm not savy on sheep but would that be acceptable or would we see to many 7 yr old minus broomed rams being taken?
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whitlers
Would there be any reason to consider adding any double broomed ram to the regs as legal? Again I'm not savy on sheep but would that be acceptable or would we see to many 7 yr old minus broomed rams being taken?
It would not solve the issue some broom young
The only sure way to solve it is do away with the age rule and go to curl only combined with an any ram LEH. This is what was done with Spence’s bridge do to short sheep being shot on age.
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Re: Warning to bc sheep hunters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild one
It would not solve the issue some broom young
The only sure way to solve it is do away with the age rule and go to curl only combined with an any ram LEH. This is what was done with Spence’s bridge do to short sheep being shot on age.
Ahhh I see. Yah that would make sense.