Alberta recently banned docking tails amongst other things.
Do you agree or disagree and why?
This should get things fired up.
Rainer
Printable View
Alberta recently banned docking tails amongst other things.
Do you agree or disagree and why?
This should get things fired up.
Rainer
Tail docking is absolute bullshit. I have a fair bit of experience with working dogs in several countries and I would never do it.
On the surface i dont like the idea of it. But i really dont know anything about it so i dont have an opinion.
Lorne
I have a Rottweiler, with a tail. (1st one, with a tail)
*#!$ing thing has wasted about a 40oz of quality booze.
I have and will dock, if I have anymore rotty pups.
To each his own, and I don't remember getting my touque cut off, I doubt a one-two day old pup remembers, getting its tail docked.
Plus the ol'lady says it looks great........
The dogs tail I mean!
:-)
Why do you think it's bs ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Everett
What working dog breeds do you have experience with?
I have raised spaniels(English Cockers and Springers) most of my adult life. I would not have a working Spaniel with a full tail. I have seen spaniels with full tails come out if a days hunt in heavy cover with the tips turned to bloody hamburger to a point of needing major surgery. We leave 2/3 of the tail when they are docked at 3 days. FYI most puppies don't even yelp during the process. With working Spaniels it is a necessity rather than cosmetic. Docking does 2 main things. #1 it takes the whip out of the thin tip and #2 adds tough scar tissue to the tip as a sort of protective armor to the vulnerable tip. I personally would much rather dock the tail at 3 days which is a non event to the pups than put an adult dog through unnecessary major surgery due to tail injury. I know at least 5 vets who are spaniel breeders and trainer/trialers and to a person all say docking is a humane necessity with ALL working Spaniels. A pic is worth 1000 words
Undocked tails, Blood in the flanks are from the tail tip, The tip is a mess of raw meat and hurts if it is touched UT never stops wagging all through the hunt
https://i1136.photobucket.com/albums...20Crap/1s1.jpg
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...%20Crap/1s.jpg
Tails docked at 2/3 length both these dogs are hard hunting gundogs and have NEVER had tail damage
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...boomer%20a.jpg
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/...p/tank%202.jpg
My brother-in-law had a big lab that damaged the tip of his tail and despite many different efforts
by both him and his vet, it never stayed healed very long because of the rapid wagging slapping it
against anything near. They finally had to dock it to 3/4 length. The whole situation cost him thousands
of dollars. I support docking if it's necessary for working dogs, or if there's a problem such as I described.
I don't support tail docking or ear trimming merely for cosmetic appearances. My big lab is constantly
knocking things over, often breaking things when doing it, but unless it was absolutely necessary there's
no way I would have his tail docked.
Any dog that works in cover will have a tail injury,it's just a matter of fact unless the tail is docked.Most of the injuries occur in the last 2inches of the tail.
Countries with a long history of using gun dogs (England,Scotland,Denmark and Germany)had their laws amended to allow docking of tails in working dogs.The rate of injuries were over 50% in Spaniels and 38% in HPR in one shooting season.Swedens GSPs had over 50% in the first year and over 90% in the second year of the dogs examined.Still with all the evidence on hand the Vets in this country voted for a docking ban.In Alberta only just over 7%of the vets and vet techs voted.
The future of gun dogs will be....no docking and no import of docked dogs!!
@Foxton,I totally agree with your post.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t tail docking (and ear cropping) banned in BC a couple years ago? My GSP is docked and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Correct. It is now only legal in 3 provinces - Ontario, Sask & Manitoba. So far...
Whack and stack ! lol ...
I think a torn off dew claw in field is far worse than under control situation at 3- days old. Definitely would want tail docked to eliminate potential damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxton Gundogs
I have always been neutral on this subject but these pics do show a valid argument for docking the tail
Well for all you circumcised guys on this forum, how did you turn out, do you cry alligator tears like Turdo, do you have trouble getting over the horrid experience, how have you made it this far in life....
In the field no issues, in the living room.. disaster.. our boxer and cane corso clear the coffee table with regularity
Used to be involved in Springers before labs.... All of them were hunters and all docked. The early dogs in my life were heavily hunted, back when there were covies of Blues all over the island...
Dock them. Like Foxton has said they are done early on and have no idea what happened.
Actually it's more than twice that many provinces. You can add BC, Alberta, Quebec, N.B. and PEI to the list. The litter my griff came from in Quebec was the last litter to have docked tails since she was born at the end of December in 2016. In January of the next year it was made illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by huntingfamily
I have heard that if you can provide evidence that the docking of the tails is NOT for cosmetic reasons but safety related instead because of the working situation that the dogs are involved with then you still may be able to get the tails docked. ie. dogs that hunt One thing for certain is,,,, vets can't dock tails in any of these provinces because if they do they will lose their license.
I, too, have witnessed dog that have had broken tails and how they've never fully recovered from their injury because of nerve damage, etc. Their tails are often deformed.
I still have nightmares about this because I fear they took a couple of more inches than was absolutely necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piperdown
I reached out to the CKC after their recent email:
CKC's response:Quote:
Hi, I was wondering if you could direct me to the scientific evidence and presentation mentioned in the link at https://www.ckc.ca/en/News/2019/February/ABVMA-Decision-and-Proposed-Changes-to-Alberta-Ani
CKC was in contact with the ABVMA prior to the membership vote, providing scientific evidence to support cropping and docking procedures. This information was also complimented by a presentation to ABVMA on January 15, 2019.
As you can see, most of their references are legislation, not scientific studies as claimed in their email to the CKC membership. There is scientific research supporting tail docking for working dogs but little to none for non-working dogs. The CKC being the CKC, their number one concern is maintaining the status quo so that the show people who make up the bulk of their membership can keep parading their fat slobs around the show ring.Quote:
CKC submitted studies and legislative exemptions to the ABVMA Council. Most links refer to docking.
Northern Ireland (exemptions for working dogs – likely to be used for work in connection with law enforcement, lawful pest control or the lawful shooting of animals.)
· Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/nia/2011/16/section/6
England & Wales(exemptions for working dogs)
· UK Animal Welfare Act 2006
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/section/6
- Explanatory Memorandum To The Docking Of Working Dogs’ Tails (England) Regulation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1120/pdfs/uksiem_20071120_en.pdf
- Risk factors for tail injuries in dogs in Great Britain (indicates risk for all dogs in the home)
http://politicalanimal.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/AW1403_9160_FRP.pdf
Scotland
· Analysis of Responses to the Consultation on the Proposal to Permit Tail Docking of Working Spaniels and Hunt Point Retrievers
https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/research-publication/2016/10/analysis-responses-consultation-proposal-permit-tail-docking-working-spaniels-hunt/documents/00506730-pdf/00506730-pdf/govscot%3Adocument
· The prevalence of tail injuries in working and non-working breed dogs visiting veterinary practices in Scotland
https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/174/18/450
· Investigations regarding tail injuries in working gundogs and terriers in pest control in Scotland
http://theses.gla.ac.uk/5629/1/2014lederermvm.pdf
South Africa
· South African Wingshooters Fact Sheet – Policy Statement on Tail Docking in Gundogs
https://www.wingshooters.co.za/pdf/Tail-Docking-FactSheet-LR.pdf\
Cropping
· Effects of ear type and weather on the hospital prevalence of canine otitis externa
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...070?via%3Dihub
Good post SignalLight. You are absolutely right about ckc/akc. It's all about the $...
That seems to be the common problem :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercaster
Docked for sure,those were pretty graphic pics that FG showed and I'm sure my GSP would be right there if hers wasn't docked ,have had her stitched 4 times in 3 years because of blackberries what if she still had a full tail...:(
Sako was eating blackberries every day they were in season last year. When I picked them my shins always had dribbles of blood running down them into my white socks. Not her,,,,,,not so much as a punctured lip. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Dutch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djG1fe_GFgk
Bit of a difference picking blackberries and chasing a wounded rooster through 3 foot high blacks,even the lab has war wounds following her lol
Ya, no doubt. HahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dutch
My griff has done some bramble bashing, as well, while hunting but the wire hair sure seems to protect their bodies. Can't tell you how many times and how many broken off thorns I have found in her coat every time she goes into one. One thing that does happen, though, is after a month or so of doing it through the hunting season almost all her facial furnishings get worn off. They're still growing back.
BC and Alberta did not ban tail docking. Their veterinarian associations voted not to do tail docking. The vote was not 100% of vets against tail docking. It is driven by the same people who are against hunting. There is a lot of misinformation re: tail docking. It is done at 2 to 3 days to neonatal puppies. At that stage the tail is cartilage and the pups do not remember. In my breed (Brittanys) many pups have natural bobbed tails. Most breeders do it themselves. It is a part of animal husbandry. If you grew up on a farm you would know about the many procedures done to animals. We never had a vet on our farm.
This is incorrect. Tail docking is banned in BC by the CVBC. Veterinarians are not allowed to dock tails for any reason, other than to treat an injury or a disease.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragdon
Cosmetic alterations231(1) For the purposes of this section,(a) “ear cropping” means the removal of part or all of the pinnae orauricles of the ear of a dog;(b) “tail docking and alteration” means the removal of all or part of thetail of dogs, horses, cattle, and includes tail blocking and tail nicking;(c) “tail nicking” means cutting any of the tail muscles; and(d) “tail blocking” means injecting the major nerves of the tail with asubstance which affects the animal’s ability to move the tail;(2) A registrant must not perform ear cropping for any reason, other than to treat aninjury or a disease of the pinnae.(3) A registrant must not perform tail docking or alteration for any reason, otherthan to treat an injury or a disease.
That is what I said. Veterinarians can’t dock tails. Breeders or anybody else can and do dock tails. It is the same in Alberta.
Alberta Vets still dock, we have a friend who raises world class Dobbies and has them done in Alberta, most gundog breeders here have done their own as long as I can remember.
They should worry more about botox, than tail docking.
I once had a mutt... a cross between a beagle and a springer... black and white and born with a 'docked' tail and looked just like a Britney... grown weight about 35 + pounds. The rest of the litter were beagles.