Calf moose season, For it or against it

[Mulie_Hunter]

We'll it's something that I never liked but calf moose season is a reality and I'm just putting this post up to hear everyone else's two cents. So if your for it or against it, post it and let me know!

[BCrams]

All for it !!

Went with dad on Sunday and had one down the first 10 minutes of calf season !! Almost got a second one too !!

Nothing like good calf meat !! YUM

[Marc]

Hmm I'm trying to figure if BCrams is just being sarcastic or if he's telling the truth :)

The way I look at it is if they’ve got a calf season open then the heard must be really healthy in that area or they are trying to limit the amount of bulls tags to try and get more trophy bulls without dropping the number of tags available for a given area.

I see it no different then buying veal at the grocery store compared to beef steak. The younger the animal the more tender the meat is. Most hunters will take a young animal, as a meat animal be it moose or deer. That’s just my two cents worth.

Marc.

[Steeleco]

I suppose if your only allowed one moose per year then it should'nt matter what type of animal you got. As long the population in the area can support the hunt then why not.

[willyqbc]

I would have to say that seeing as I have taken a calf before I'm for it I guess. I would much rather see a calf taken than a cow, I don't particularly like the cow draws and I'll tell you why....lets say you are in region seven during calf season with a limited entry cow tag in your pocket and you come across a cow/calf pair. Now if you shoot the calf, you are taking a "potential" breeder out of the herd, if you shoot the cow you are taking a "guaraunteed" breeder, we know this because of the calf she allready has. Any moose you take is going to remove a breeding or potential breeding animal from the herd. My preference would be to take a bull or calf over a cow.

Chris

[3kills]

why not...i think in some areas u have to do it to control it abit...its all about animal management right...

[Gateholio]

Myself, I don't think I would take a calf...And I sure as hell wouldn't take a cow that is WITH a calf.

However, if the wildlife management aspect of it is sound, then I am fine with it.

I have read a huge essay on why calf seasons are good, but I'm not qualified to repeat it all here! :)

[BCrams]

You bet Marc -

I'm all for calf moose seasons. Between my dad and I, we've had 100 percent success on calf moose for those years we don't get a LEH permit for bulls (which is only like 6 between us in 17 years -- 2 for me and 4 for my dad) ---- not counting the moose my dad has taken before I was old enough to hunt or the moose he has taken on fly in hunts up north.

[Amphibious]

passed on a calf tonight. easy 100yrd shot. don't need the meat that bad and would still prefer to take a bull.

[bone-collector]

ataa boy willer,

heres my take, IF you are in NEED of the meat I dont have a problem with anyone feeding there family , there are those that will say goto overwitea etc, well a calf moose is pretty cheap and easy to find , if you are just shooting 1 because the regs say you can , well thats poor ethics IMHO and yes everyones ethics are different I know , as for cows , we used to have a cow draw here and all put in for it just to rip the tags up if we got them :!:

now we have doe draws here , also have a overabundance of does in the areas , that I dont have a problem with, you can see 30 does in a afternoon of moose hunting just about anywere around here wether its in the fields or the tall mountain timber , anyhow regardless the government has written you may hunt them and people will regardless of what I think :lol:

[Tank]

I think ive gone on this rant on another thread, but here it is again...if a person is going to shoot a moose anyway then why not shoot a calf? it has the lowest impact on the population as compared to shooting a bull or a cow. For a moose to grow into a mature breeder it takes alot of other calves to die of predation and other natural causes. so for a hunter just looking to fill a tag and bring home some meat, a calf is the enviromentally friendly way to go. as far as cow draws are concerned i think i'd rather see more relaxed seasons on bulls to control population than handing out tags for breeding cows. anyways thats my two cents

[ratherbefishin]

This is more of an emotional issue than a resourse based issue.Clearly, taking a calf leaves the breeding cow to survive-plus the fact that a percentage of calves will not survive the winter and therefore taking a calf has less impact on the moose population than taking a mature animal.

[swamper]

I personally will never shoot a calf. I have had long discussions with the wildlife biologist and of course there appears to be a good rational for a calf season. He told me that only one out of three calves will survive so why not let the hunters take a few instead of the wolves etc. But what if the on you take is one of the ones that would have survived. Just doesn't make sense to me. As for the cow season I feel even stronger about that. By the time the cow season opens here in Reg 7 on Oct 10th, the rut is well under way and that cow could well have been bred and could be carrying twins. With one bullet you have quite possibly taken 3 animal out of the herd.
Most of us that are out there are not subsistance hunters and are out for the sport, not just the meat.. Because when it really boils right down to it, by the time you buy you tags and spend the time and gas running around to find a moose, it could be just as cheap to buy a side of beef or buffalo. I hunt for the sport. To me it is more of a challenge to try find a legal bull than it is to drive down the road and whack a cow or calf moose. Like Bone-Collector said, a doe season is a little different. There are so many deer running around and the buck to doe ration is way out of line. I applaud the hunters that oppoose the cow/calf season.

[Thunderstix]

If it makes good management sense, eg. the MSY is such that some calves have to be thinned, then I am for it.

[Mulie_Hunter]

[QUOTE=willyqbc] Now if you shoot the calf, you are taking a "potential" breeder out of the herd, if you shoot the cow you are taking a "guaraunteed" breeder, we know this because of the calf she allready has. QUOTE]

But your defeating the purpose of the "guaraunteed breeder" if your shooting off the calves becuase none of them ever grow up to be breeders. Just my 2 cents.

[Tank]

Agreed, shooting a calf may not be as sporty as tracking down a bull, but by not having the short calf season, those hunters looking only to fill a tag are forced to take a mature animal out of the herd....so regardless of whether or not i want to shoot a calf i still think the season is a good idea

[bone-collector]

well in the end if you look at a picture in whole I think you will see why region 5 has no moose season , and it will spread to all areas , maybe if the natives were a little more regulated there wouldnt be a discussion on cow and calf seasons , but seeing they shoot any moose they see its tuff for any species to recover from that attack , do we need to help them close more areas? ask yourself that

the government could care less if we hunt or not and as soon as there is signs of week populations they just shut it down and laff as its 1 less thing they have to deal with

just my final .02 on the subject

[3kills]

i dont want a calf season here but i do want them to get rid of the dam immature season..even if they went to a 10 point season or tri palm here or something...

[bill]

Im againsted calf season but if they keep having it the season should be 3 to 5 days just to keep the kill ratio down. just my 2 cents worth. have a good one...

[Foxer]

I don't like to second guess the biologists too much - i have to assume if they've opened a calf draw in an area, it must be at least reasonably sound.

Personally, i dont have a problem with it as long as it's not hurting the herd. Calf is excellent eating, and i've never been a trophey type personally. I can see why some might have issues with it, and i won't try to sway anyone to my side of it, but if it's legal, it's fair game in my book.

[416]

l agree with Foxers line of thinking, except the part about gov't biologists having reasonably sound judgement...........is that one of those oxi-moron things?? (gov't and sound judgement ?????????)
My two cents is that any given part of the provience will hold only so many animals regaurdless of speices. The food sources, man infringement on habitat, desease, and other factors affect total numbers, but the bottom line is the land will only hold so many animals according to the availablity of food. If numbers are above what the land can support, it opens the door for nature to thin out herds through starvation, predators, and other means. If we choose to keep numbers in check with a calf season then so be it. IMHO, that is better then letting an overpopulation senario occour. Through our harvest questionaires the gov't is able to track the populations and l like to think if animal numbers were in trouble, steps would be taken to help the situation out.
The moral ethics of what we believe or don't believe in has nothing to do effective population management. Infact decisions based on moral ethics are one of the poorest foundations to plan sound long range animal planning on.
If a hunter chooses to harvest calves, that's ok in my books, the same as one who doesn't. Its a judgement call based on our own personal veiw point to say deer numbers in our favourite moose, elk, haunts are too high and its ok to thin their numbers out, but to control the harvest of our favorite game animals in a similar way is "ethically" wrong. If its legal, its legal!

[bone-collector]

of course if its legal its legal, says so in the regs , that donst have anything to do with the question at hand , and yes its an individual situation no doubt.
whatever floats your boat as long as its legal .

[Foxer]

of course if its legal its legal, says so in the regs , that donst have anything to do with the question at hand

well, that's true. Lawful doesn't equal 'moral'. We've always said we as a group don't need the force of law to tell us the right and wrong thing to do. So it's still worth discussing it, even tho we know it's legal.

416 - i DID say 'reasonably' :) :) I know the biologists are under funded, under motivated these days, and over worked, but unless someone's got evidence to the contrary we kinda have to have at least a little faith in them.

[eagleye]

The calf season is a copy of a management ploy that has been used in Sweden for several decades now. Sweden harvest more moose annually from a smaller population than we have in B.C. They mange to maintain population density by their system. That being said, hunting in Sweden is much more closely monitored than it is here, and they do not have a lot of aboriginal hunting going on.However, Calf moose hunting, if properly monitored, has a minimal impact on the actual moose populations, barring other factors that can skew the results. Therefor, it is not a bad thing to harvest a few calves, as long as the season is fairly short, the effect is taking the pressure off the breeding population...a good thing IMHO. LEH cow seasons need to be short, small numbers and closely watched. Regards, Eagleye.

[Freshtracks]

As for a general calf season...No.

I've spent the past 2 moose hunts in a general calf season area and have observed crowded hunting conditions which to me ='s high calf harvest. When you talk to hunters and they report more than 70% of the cows being dry (no calf present) then you either have over harvest, high calf predatation or a weak bull to cow ratio during breeding season. I'm not saying leave the calves to predators, maybe lets see them included in the LEH system and only in MU's that can support a harvest.

On the plus side, you'd have lower LEH odds to existing bull, cow draws. You'd most likely see a higher immature bull ratio in a few years, with higher mature bull ratios in further years. Or set the calf LEH draws to junior/senior hunters to promote more youth into the hunting heritage and allow those who have kept that heritage going, a less labouring hunt.

Question is : 'are we managing our ungulates to the full potential that the habitat could handle?

[CanuckShooter]

As for a general calf season...No.

I've spent the past 2 moose hunts in a general calf season area and have observed crowded hunting conditions which to me ='s high calf harvest. When you talk to hunters and they report more than 70% of the cows being dry (no calf present) then you either have over harvest, high calf predatation or a weak bull to cow ratio during breeding season. I'm not saying leave the calves to predators, maybe lets see them included in the LEH system and only in MU's that can support a harvest.

On the plus side, you'd have lower LEH odds to existing bull, cow draws. You'd most likely see a higher immature bull ratio in a few years, with higher mature bull ratios in further years. Or set the calf LEH draws to junior/senior hunters to promote more youth into the hunting heritage and allow those who have kept that heritage going, a less labouring hunt.

Question is : 'are we managing our ungulates to the full potential that the habitat could handle?

Maybe the trick is to have a longer calf opening, and not have it at the same time as the cow LEHs are good?? Just saying.

[mfarrally]

I personally don't like it. I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and the challenge. there is no challenge shooting calfs cows or does. Just my personal opinion. Its still legal so fill your boots if your into it

[little bear]

littebear I am aganinst a calf season , and a cow season as you dont see a farmer shot his breed cows and calves in the fall and say he will have a larger heard in the spring .

[Fisher-Dude]

littebear I am aganinst a calf season , and a cow season as you dont see a farmer shot his breed cows and calves in the fall and say he will have a larger heard in the spring .

Have you read anything about moose herd management, or do you just know about cattle?

[KB90]

littebear I am aganinst a calf season , and a cow season as you dont see a farmer shot his breed cows and calves in the fall and say he will have a larger heard in the spring .

Well if you shoot all the bulls there will not be a larger herd either. It's a balance. It's science.

[KB90]

there is no challenge shooting calfs cows or does.

That's very subjective.

Where does it say that hunting needs to be challenging? I can tell you I know quite a few people who would be quite happy going out on a saturday morning, killing a doe, and be back for lunch (my grandpa). I also know others who have a very hard time killing the gender of animals you listed above. A calf moose to them might as well be a world record bull.

Buuut you did say this was just your personal opinion, doesn't mean it has to be right :)

[Sleep Robber]

I must admit, it's nice to have the option of taking a calf, if you didn't manage to get a bull draw, and couldn't locate an immature. I don't mind coming home empty handed, it's part of the sport, but traveling long distance to go hunting and the costs that go with a hunting trip, it is nice to bring home "some" meat for the wife and kid, even if it is a calf. Besides,there's some good size calves out there, and if I shoot my two deer for the year, a calf is plenty of meat for me and my family anyway, I'm just not sharing with the "extended" family that year :wink:

Being able to cut my moose with a fork is always good too :mrgreen: Can you say alfalfa :-D

[RJ]

Time warp to 2004 :tongue:
If it's not a conservation issue, we should be able to hunt whatever we want :-D

[KB90]

I love when people randomly dig up an ancient thread and start talking to peoples old comments like it was yesterday.

7 years, she's an oldie.

[Marlin375]

Time warp to 2004 :tongue:
If it's not a conservation issue, we should be able to hunt whatever we want :-D

No kidding.....I checked to see if Moosetracks was still on this side of the lawn:mrgreen:.

As far as calves go, I shot a 2inch bull a few years back....my smallest moose. The little bugger was mostly legs, not really that much meat on him, so calves are off my list. He was tasty though.

[Camp Cook]

Not for it and not against it but I do think it is a waste..

I feel that a calf moose has the least amount of meat on it of any game animal so I have no desire to harvest one.

Let it grow up and get some meat on its bones...

CC

[pnbrock]

not for me like killing small fish for a meal ,let it grow get a few meals.

[mfarrally]

That's very subjective.

Where does it say that hunting needs to be challenging?
Buuut you did say this was just your personal opinion, doesn't mean it has to be right :)

As you said thats MY personal opinion. Thats why the thread was started, asking what we thought. Who says it needs to be challenging? Well I do. everytime i go hunting i make it a challenge.
As long as its legal, hunt for whatever animal and for whatever reasons you want. Personally i have no interest in it. So as i said if thats your kinda thing, fill your boots, shouldn't be to hard

[TPB]

Well if its resurrected i mine as well throw in my opinion, you could harvest a calf which has just been brought into this world by a healthy breeder (Cow.) So in theory why kill a cow which bred the calf with no health issues and instead kill a calf which the cow will have again next year. Either way i dont care and there is no moose season here so don't tease me to bad if i am way of course.

[David Heitsman]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. I know I couldn't do it.

[one-shot-wonder]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. I know I couldn't do it.

Yeh especially one of them there prized trophy shiras bulls........

Yeh Costco good one.....

[TPB]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. I know I couldn't do it.

So thats why you harvest a calf! Haha but seriously why would i go to Costco when I could harvest non treated meat (Not a granola muncher by any means) and it tastes awesome.... Or buy meat for shitty prices? You can't eat 50" of antler

[Sleep Robber]

There's no reason for people to get their sh!t in a knot about this. :-?

Shooting a calf doesn't make you any less of a hunter, and some people actually enjoy the "more times than not, easier harvest" for many reasons, IE: getting up in age, new to the sport, don't need a large amount of meat, etc. etc.

Too each his own fellas :wink:

[KB90]

Slow season nothing like a little debate/ conversation. And the Cow/Calf one is always good.


fill your boots, shouldn't be to hard

Nice touch :)

[The Dude]

Did someone just fire up the WayBack machine? :mrgreen:


Calf moose is one of the best out there...however, I don't like shooting anything from under it's Mother.
I ate Tag Soup about ten years ago because I had a Doe tag, and couldn't find one without fawns, and I was quite OK with that.

[KB90]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there .

Do you eat any of the animals you kill or do you just pay for the head gear?

The idea of hunting is to get your own meat not buy it at the store...

[arcadia]

A lot of calfs die from winterkill infant mortality anyway. The predators go after the old and the young. I'm not opposed to calf hunts but I like bigger animals (I have 5 mouths to feed).

[Will]

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/Repost/1/Old-BTF.jpg

[Fisher-Dude]

Seems some people need to Google up "compensatory versus additive mortality."

Lots of good info out there to read before engaging the pie hole.

[6616]

http://www.goabc.org/pdfs/Moose-ApplicationMooseBreedingBiologyi.pdf

[BCrams]

Classic thread that has occured on a few occassions.

I had a bull moose LEH tag last fall. Passed up a nice bull in a hell hole in the am. While headed to another spot to call for the afternoon / evening I came across a cow / calf. The tastey eats of a calf moose was just too good to pass up. Had to work for it too, swimming a deep wide back channel to the other side to swim it back across. :-D

[sawmill]

Well if its resurrected i mine as well throw in my opinion, you could harvest a calf which has just been brought into this world by a healthy breeder (Cow.) So in theory why kill a cow which bred the calf with no health issues and instead kill a calf which the cow will have again next year. Either way i dont care and there is no moose season here so don't tease me to bad if i am way of course.

I agree,don`t see many ranchers selling all the brood cows and keeping calves.Besides,winter kill and predation take a lot of the calves,I`d rather have one in my belly than in a wolfs.In an area with a big healthy population,a few calves don`t make any differance.

[Fisher-Dude]

http://www.goabc.org/pdfs/Moose-ApplicationMooseBreedingBiologyi.pdf


Harvest Principles for Moose

All sexes and ages should be harvested to maintain a natural balance in the population.
Closing antlerless seasons can have negative effects including exacerbating low calf survival

Harvests and populations should be monitored on a regular basis

Omineca Model
Several reports have demonstrated that the model that best meets the policies of the British Columbia Wildlife Harvest Strategy is the Omineca moose management regime.


Child 1996;

Hatter 1998; and

Demarchi and Hartwig 2008.
Evidence has also been compiled that shows that over the past 28 years, the moose population in Omineca:

Has increased and

Is believed to have benefitted from the selective harvest strategy.

[Fisher-Dude]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. I know I couldn't do it.


Would you shoot a cow bison? During bison seasons, the cows are pregnant and could have a booner bull in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. Why would someone shoot a cow bison when they could just go to Costco and buy meat?



Went in on a LEH and stayed in a SRO cabin and went out every day unguided. Finally got a cow on the 7th day.

[moosinaround]

I shot a nice little bull calf this year. Tastey critter, best eating moose you can grill. It was also the toughest animal retrieval I have had. Lots of memories with this years calf, and I would take one every year if I was fourtunate to come across one every year. Lots of cows twinning lately, seen quite a few cows with twins in the ole MU 7A. Moosin

[835]

This thread did better the second time around!

[sawmill]

Yeah,except for F.D. blasting my shooting eye out!I gotta learn how to spell that big.

[jml11]

I personally don't like it. I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and the challenge. there is no challenge shooting calfs cows or does. Just my personal opinion. Its still legal so fill your boots if your into it

Depends on the person. I know a few people who for whatever reason can't find a calf to save their lives but run into quite a few mature bulls during the season...so for them if they had a bull tag, getting the bull wouldn't be much of a challenge :wink:.

Based on my own personal experiences I would say finding and harvesting a spike-fork moose is not a challenge as I killed 4 and saw another one get shoot in a 7 season span...and the season's with no spike forks only occuring as we managed a couple mature bulls on LEH instead...

Unless you are targeting a specific caliber of bull moose in Region 7a, harvesting one with an LEH authorization is no more challenging than a cow or calf really. Much like getting a spike or two-point mulie isn't all that more challenging than a doe in many areas...but this is just another man's opinion :-D. The challenge is what you make it!

[jml11]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. I know I couldn't do it.


Sounds like a good ole BC RESIDENT hunter who is all about supporting hunter opportunity here...

What do most hunters hunt for...meat...and for most, I would think it's QUALITY and not QUANTITY that matters more than anything. There's no doubt that a younger animal provides the best QUALITY meat and I know numerous hunters that will always select a young bull moose on their LEH given the opportunity. Even some that have passed on big mature bulls, one even crazy enough to shoot a calf instead :shock::wink:. There are plenty of though, rutted out, 50" bulls to go around for those that want to hunt for the rack. Me hunting a calf in one area will not impact you from hunting a 50" bull in that same area at the same time...and 5 years from now, there will still be 50" bulls in the same area.

[Goliath]

I don't care for the calf season. Not debating the science, it's just not a challenge. Sort of like picking up fat chicks.

I hunt for the biggest and/or most unique rack every year...and filling the freezer is a big perk.

In my books, hunting just for "meat" isn't economical unless you have a hand-me-down gun, surplus ammo, and shoot out your back door. Face it, the reality is 9/10 hunters spend a lot of time & money on their gear.

IMO, calf seasons should be reserved for youth/senior hunts.

[Tenacious Billy]

I don't care for the calf season. Not debating the science, it's just not a challenge. Sort of like picking up fat chicks.

I hunt for the biggest and/or most unique rack every year...and filling the freezer is a big perk.

In my books, hunting just for "meat" isn't economical unless you have a hand-me-down gun, surplus ammo, and shoot out your back door. Face it, the reality is 9/10 hunters spend a lot of time & money on their gear.

IMO, calf seasons should be reserved for youth/senior hunts.

Calf moose are undoubtedly easier to haul out of the bush than a mature bull and I think maybe that aspect makes the hunt more suitable for junior and senior hunters.....but as far as "challenging" goes, I'm not so sure that moose hunting and challenging go together, regardless. In fact, I'd argue that Cow/calves tend to be alot more cagey than your average bull moose......not much easier than calling out a horny bull moose during the rut - some guys do it with coffee cans and a string.......

[Goliath]

Calf moose are undoubtedly easier to haul out of the bush than a mature bull and I think maybe that aspect makes the hunt more suitable for junior and senior hunters.....but as far as "challenging" goes, I'm not so sure that moose hunting and challenging go together, regardless. In fact, I'd argue that Cow/calves tend to be alot more cagey than your average bull moose......not much easier than calling out a horny bull moose during the rut - some guys do it with coffee cans and a string.......


Very good points.

"Challenging" was the wrong choice of words..."Entertaining" was what I meant.

[ratherbefishin]

before I could have an informed opinion,I'd like to see some evidence that the calf season[and immature] has actually INCREASED the moose herd,which theoretically it should by leaving the breeding population.Thats the theory behind it-but is there any actual evidence it HAS increased the moose population?If so,I like to hear it from the biologists

Obviously my preference is for a 3 or 4 yearold bull[which we got this year-but waited 5 years for the LEH]but,yes,I'd take a calf if it was my only option to put moose meat in the freezer

[ThinAir]

I just wish someone would tell those stinking cow moose to stop whining and crying when I shoot their calf! :( It kinda gets to me, watching momma moan and nuzzle her calf one last time.

I've shot a few calves before and it's probably 60-70% where I've had some sort of drama. One of my buddies took his wife out and they shot a calf....he said his wife was in the truck bawling her eyes out while the cow was bawling outside the truck.

Not exactly the "best" animal for beginners IMHO. Meat is good though:-D

[Fisher-Dude]

before I could have an informed opinion,I'd like to see some evidence that the calf season[and immature] has actually INCREASED the moose herd,which theoretically it should by leaving the breeding population.Thats the theory behind it-but is there any actual evidence it HAS increased the moose population?If so,I like to hear it from the biologists

Obviously my preference is for a 3 or 4 yearold bull[which we got this year-but waited 5 years for the LEH]but,yes,I'd take a calf if it was my only option to put moose meat in the freezer

Did you read anything in the link 6616 posted?

Child 1996;
Hatter 1998; and
Demarchi and Hartwig 2008.

Evidence has also been compiled that shows that over the past 28 years, the moose population in Omineca:
Has increased and
Is believed to have benefitted from the selective harvest strategy.


You may also want to read a copy of "Toward an Improved Moose Management Strategy", Ecodomain, 2008.

[moosinaround]

I just wish someone would tell those stinking cow moose to stop whining and crying when I shoot their calf! :( It kinda gets to me, watching momma moan and nuzzle her calf one last time.

I've shot a few calves before and it's probably 60-70% where I've had some sort of drama. One of my buddies took his wife out and they shot a calf....he said his wife was in the truck bawling her eyes out while the cow was bawling outside the truck.

Not exactly the "best" animal for beginners IMHO. Meat is good though:-D
You get over it! I was sad when I killed my first calf, it was a cuddly soft little critter. Then I bit into the steaks off of it and it lost it's cuddlyness as it was way tastier! I like to take a spike fork myself, but hey a moose is a moose! Moosin

[Fisher-Dude]

Do you guys agree with Demarchi and think the Omineca should be applied to other regions? I've read a couple papers that say the lower density populations with multiple prey species and predators can't sustain cow and calf harvest without predator control. Calf and cow harvest becomes additive to predation mortality and the population declines...just curious what your thoughts are?

I agree with Ray. When I spoke with him about it, I asked him if the rest of BC is ready for the 7A model for moose. He responded that the moose sure are, but maybe the hunters aren't.

I find it bizzare that misguided social considerations are standing in the way of better moose hunting, more moose, healthier moose and better economic contributions from increased moose hunting. :???:

[GoatGuy]

Do you guys agree with Demarchi and think the Omineca should be applied to other regions? I've read a couple papers that say the lower density populations with multiple prey species and predators can't sustain cow and calf harvest without predator control. Calf and cow harvest becomes additive to predation mortality and the population declines...just curious what your thoughts are?

Makes sense, although typically with moose you won't find a case study which is a shame. A lot of it is theoretical and the only application of the selective harvest strategy is 7A.

I'm sure cow/calf harvest would be sustainable but the harvest rate would be different depending on the area. Applying the same harvest rate across the province probably wouldn't work for reasons stated above, and including others such as site specific FN harvest and habitat.

Something I've never seen is the definition of a 'lower density' population. Typically, when we talk lower density it's areas just off the north coast, not like what we have down south.

[6616]

Do you guys agree with Demarchi and think the Omineca should be applied to other regions? I've read a couple papers that say the lower density populations with multiple prey species and predators can't sustain cow and calf harvest without predator control. Calf and cow harvest becomes additive to predation mortality and the population declines...just curious what your thoughts are?

FD is probably correct. I sure wouldn't be the one to stand up and disagree with Demarchi, he's probably forgot more about moose management than I'll ever know, and all of the info in that paper came from world renowned moose biologists like John Bubenick.

But you raise a good point, natural mortality has to be taken into consideration and must be known, and must be low enough to allow juvenile and possibly cow harvests. Herd composition should be well known including calf/cow ratios, post season survival rates of bulls, the percentage of yearlings escaping the spike/fork seasons, etc.

If the spring calf ratio is 30 per 100 cows or higher it shouldn't be a problem. If half the yearlings are escaping the spike/fork season it should indicate that component is sustainable. These numbers would indicate if calf and yearling harvest is additive or compensatory. If the herd is expanding to or near population objectives a cow LEH could be initiated, but being aware that cow harvest is nearly always additive.

If mature bulls (and cows if any cow harvest is allowed) are on LEH, and calf ratios and survival rates of yearlings are monitored it seems to me to be a pretty safe strategy, and certainly maintains a near normal social structure within the herd which appears to encourage herd overall vitality and productivity.

[Fisher-Dude]

For crying out loud, go to Costco if you want 'meat'. Leave the cow and calves alone. There could be a future 50" bull there in the belly or outside the belly and still nursing. I know I couldn't do it.


Take a cow if you can, try to make sure she's dry. I took one in 98 maybe and it was great meat. Now the 13 yr old bull in 04 was virtually inedible.
Sure had a lot of sausage that year tho.


I guess I'm confused. Oh well.

[frenchbar]

I guess I'm confused. Oh well.

it Tells ya all ya need to know about this guy....

[Goliath]

Evidence has also been compiled that shows that over the past 28 years, the moose population in Omineca:
Has increased and
Is believed to have benefitted from the selective harvest strategy.



Your dead wrong. The moose population in the Omineca benefited from the construction of Costco in PG. Same can be said said for the Grande Prairie Costco benefiting the Peace moose & elk. :mrgreen:

[GoatGuy]

Ya, haven't read much about the north coast but when I think about the Kootenays, the moose densities appear high in some areas but it is only winter density and survey units represent a fraction of the year-round habitat, with more moose observed over a smaller area on heavier snowfall years. When you extrapolate the estimated density over the entire MU, it is actually low. I think of survey units in the Omineca as covering a greater proportion of the year-round habitat.

Certainly higher densities but when you look at what places like Revelstoke used to have and what we're finding in the Okanagan aren't doing bad (0.44/km2 across the MU). Also, in the Okanagan we really don't have wolves, grizz and in most places we shoot the sh*t out of the cougars so that leaves black bears which typically only affect neo-nates. Given those factors calf:cow ratios aren't very good, so is it predation or density dependence?

As I said, probably can't have the same harvest rates as the Omineca but some harvest would certainly be sustainable and might benefit the moose. Have an experiment in mind.

[GoatGuy]

Well it sure makes sense on paper and has definitely been a success in 7A and other jurisdictions. I would really like to see the harvest model tested on a pop'n outside of the boreal that is monitored intensively.

same.


I've heard that Ray doesn't lose many arguments. Would have been interesting to hear how the guides responded to his recommendation to start harvesting cows and calves.

Hahahaha, you certainly don't want to be on the receiving end.

[6616]

same.
Hahahaha, you certainly don't want to be on the receiving end.

Ray's not for sale like some other retired biologists and his reports have no hidden agendas. He can rub some folks the wrong way as he doesn't have much patience with folks who have the nimby attitude, the me-me attitude, or folks who criticize professional managers without really understanding the basics. He won't give those folks the time of day and can even be a little curt with them,,,, but if he knows you really care about wildlife and have an understanding of management good enough to understand what he's saying, he will go on for as long as it takes or into as much detail as it takes, to explain things to you. He's basically a darned good dude and a friend of resident hunters.