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sealevel
12-27-2006, 09:08 AM
with all you guys buying bows join the ubbc and give it a chance to work its onely 10 dollars for 2 years.

416
12-27-2006, 12:06 PM
A personal opinion and observation: Recently, l decided my next purchase in broadening my hunting horizons will be a crossbow. l used the search engine on this website and if the opinions expressed are indicative of the organization towards folks with crossbows, (which are legally considered archery gear).......thanks but no thanks. All l was looking for was opinions on various crossbows out on the market and was surprised to find the animosity that seems to exist between long bow versus crossbows users.
I belong to a fish&game club which has a healthy componante of archery buffs who seem to get along fine, no matter what choice the individuals make, so l will be checking out that source in the new year.

Coyote
12-27-2006, 12:52 PM
The UBBC supports ALL legal bowhunting tackle. That includes crossbows

There are varying opinions re crossbows throughout the province. An individuals opinions are his/hers alone.

Gord

Bow Walker
12-27-2006, 04:22 PM
A personal opinion and observation: Recently, l decided my next purchase in broadening my hunting horizons will be a crossbow. l used the search engine on this website and if the opinions expressed are indicative of the organization towards folks with crossbows, (which are legally considered archery gear).......thanks but no thanks. All l was looking for was opinions on various crossbows out on the market and was surprised to find the animosity that seems to exist between long bow versus crossbows users.
I belong to a fish&game club which has a healthy componante of archery buffs who seem to get along fine, no matter what choice the individuals make, so l will be checking out that source in the new year.
Check out the Crossbow that Brother Jack has for sale on this site. It is good deal.

Elkhound
12-27-2006, 05:18 PM
with all you guys buying bows join the ubbc and give it a chance to work its onely 10 dollars for 2 years.

Just took a look. $10.00 for 3 years. Sounds cheap to me

FullDraw
12-27-2006, 06:35 PM
Cheaper than the BCAA

FullDraw

Rainwater
12-27-2006, 07:00 PM
The UBBC does support all legal archery hunting methods in the Province and no one on this site is representing them in any other way. If you like the bow only seasons you have (or had) and want a few more then join up, theres no debate. If your a bowhunter then it's going to be well worth it along with the pride that will come from being at the forefront of the well being of bowhunting op's in our beloved province.

The Hermit
12-28-2006, 12:15 AM
I don't pretend to understand this whole crossbow vs recurve vs compoubnd thing. Nor do I understand why archery only seasons exist. Can someone please explain?

Just so its clear... I am not trolling!!! I don't have a problem with it and in fact plan to take full advantage of the added time in the field. I simply don't understand the rationale behind the special privilege?

Oh and what does UBBC stand for? Link to the website?

FullDraw
12-28-2006, 12:48 AM
What is there to understand some members of certain archey styles don't like or approve of other way's to fling arrows be it traditional compound or x bows. Face it you can't please everybody in this world. Choose the style you like and spend your time making sure you make good clean shots over and over and the main thing is to have fun that's what it should be about.

2nd:If you plan on taking advantage of this so called specail privilege why would you waste your time wondering the rationale behind it? Why not get out and take advantage of it?


3rd: ubbc.ca United Bow Hunters Of British Columbia a group of dedicated bow hunters working together with goverment to keep the
so-called specail privilege bow hunter season open for the extended bow hunting seasons that your looking to take advantage of.

Hope this helps....FullDraw

ubbc.ca

J_T
12-28-2006, 12:12 PM
Hermit,

I'm going to be in Victoria the 3rd to the 5th. I'd love to sit down with you and have this discussion and between us perhaps we could work towards a post for here that is informative in nature and not judgemental.

I feel qualified to answer your question, however I am not at all interested in resurrecting arguements that should remain dormant.

Crossbows in BC are legal archery tackle and I support that. I also support all archers being the best they can. I believe the transition from rifle to bow brings on a need to modify ones approach to the pursuit of game. As always, it is the transition that causes perhaps the most conflict.

Anyway, would like to talk to you about this. You know how to get hold of me.

JT

Kirby
12-28-2006, 01:17 PM
2nd:If you plan on taking advantage of this so called specail privilege why would you waste your time wondering the rationale behind it? Why not get out and take advantage of it?


3rd: ubbc.ca United Bow Hunters Of British Columbia a group of dedicated bow hunters working together with goverment to keep the
so-called specail privilege bow hunter season open for the extended bow hunting seasons that your looking to take advantage of.


First, you should question the reason behind something, otherwise you can't explain it to people who don't know, or are going to argue against it, or if you infact agree with it...

Second it IS a special privilege to have a bow only season. I think too many bowhunters are viewing it as their right to extended seasons because they bowhunt.

Kirby

Rainwater
12-28-2006, 01:31 PM
Kirby, A bow season is what it is a BOW season, it's not a black or white season, or red. Anyone can join in ,even a one armed paper hanger can shoot a xbow. Can't worry about misguided jealousies anymore, sorry! Like the old saying says "if I have to explain you probably won't get it". It still boggles my mind everytime a "bowhunter" asks why, makes a guy wonder??????

Rainwater
12-28-2006, 01:32 PM
PS Maybe a GOS is a "special season". Chicken or the egg first?

Kirby
12-28-2006, 05:07 PM
Kirby, A bow season is what it is a BOW season, it's not a black or white season, or red. Anyone can join in ,even a one armed paper hanger can shoot a xbow.

Maybe you missed something. A person should understand the reason BEHIND the bow season in order to educate people who don't know otherwise. IE to allow bowhunters time to hunt without rifle pressure, to offer an increase in hunting time without depleting the populations.


Can't worry about misguided jealousies anymore, sorry! Like the old saying says "if I have to explain you probably won't get it". It still boggles my mind everytime a "bowhunter" asks why, makes a guy wonder??????

But then again if we simply procede forward without having a logical reason behind how we manage our animals I'm sure we'll do great:lol: Its a good approach don't educate, simply dissmiss somebody because tehy don't have the same information you posses? Well on that account I guess your not worth explainning much too either.

Kirby

The Hermit
12-28-2006, 05:18 PM
Damn sorry I asked!

Looking forward to getting together Jim. I have made arrangements to occupy some of Andy's space in Vic for my new office. Lets get together there one day and plan on getting out for lunch!

Rainwater
12-28-2006, 05:25 PM
Kirby, Well your a bowhunter ,maybe you should explain why there is a special bowonly season instead of always playin' the devils advocate. I just get tired of explaining about something that's been around for so long but will give it a shot for the newcomer. A lot bow seasons are based on biologically reasons that allow for an extended season or an early season where impacts on wildlife numbers will be minimal. An early season allows the bowhunter to attempt to get an animal which has not been alarmed by rifle shots or the mass amounts of people which show up for a general open season. It is usually only about 9 days long so does not impact on anyone else's season, it offers a quiet, safe time in the woods again with a limited harvest. The late season allows bowhunters the opportunity to hunt animals either in the rut or when snows keep deer feeding or moving, not the best time to be shooting them with guns due to the possiblity of over harvest. Late season also offers the bowhunter better ability to track a shot deer as blood shows up good in the snow. Once again this offers a safer environment for the camo'd bowhunter with no biological impact on the herd (as quoted by regional biologists). Bow seasons can also be offered to hunters in areas where the discharge of firearms would be deemed unsafe. If any bowhunter out there as anything to add please do so.

J_T
12-28-2006, 05:36 PM
The methods by which a bowhunter hunts are unique to the weapon, and often different than those of a rifle hunter. There are times as a bowhunter that you may be stalking into very close range and this requires solitary space to do it. During a GOS a bowhunter on a close stalk often has his chosen animal alerted or shot by another hunter using a longer range weapon.

You've seen discussion about how bowhunters use treestands. It is not uncommon in some areas for bowhunters to be set up within site of each other, or at least very close. IE 5 guys, within 600 yards. During a GOS it is difficult to be effective using such techniques and patterning animals.

To bowhunt effectively and get within range requires more attention to the stealth inititiatives, during a GOS this has often placed the bowhunter in a compromised safety situation.

When a rifle sounds in the forest, all the critters are aware and alert. When an arrow sinks deep into the heart of an animal, no one hears it, the animals are not put on alert and nature continues as it should.

JT

Onesock
12-28-2006, 06:28 PM
Aaarrgghhhh. Why did I beat myself over the head with a bat? Because it felt so good when i quit. Special bow opportunity reason's have been explained a million times. If a person can't figure out why it is tougher to bag an animal with a bow than it is with a rifle I don't think they should be allowed in the woods. This horse sh-t has got to stop. And this is why the rift between bow hunters and rifle hunters is widening!!!!

Jagermeister
12-28-2006, 06:31 PM
Is the UBBC a member of the BCWF?
What has the UBBC done to enhance and protect the hunting opportunities for all hunters?
What will the UBBC do to enhance and protect the hunting opportunities of all hunters in the future?

Onesock
12-28-2006, 06:33 PM
416- How much bow hunting opportunity has your local fish and game club got for you? That is the reason you should join the UBBC. As was stated before, the UBBC supports all legal methods of bow hunting in BC, which includes the crossbow.

Onesock
12-28-2006, 06:37 PM
416-Another question. Why are you wanting to get into bow hunting?

J_T
12-28-2006, 07:24 PM
Is the UBBC a member of the BCWF?
What has the UBBC done to enhance and protect the hunting opportunities for all hunters?
What will the UBBC do to enhance and protect the hunting opportunities of all hunters in the future?
Or, is the BCWF a member of the UBBC? No on both counts. This is a long discussion, however, years, years of bowhunters attempting to work from within the BCWF to provide a more diversified hunting opportunity in BC have failed. We have lived with the status quo for so long that many hunters in BC (not just bowhunters) are not represented by the BCWF.

Granted, the Government would still believe the BCWF represents all hunters in BC, but that is simply good marketing on behalf of the BCWF. The BCWF does some good work on behalf of the heritage of hunting and this should be appreciated by all sportsmen.

The UBBC has worked directly to bring about new opportunity. In Region 4 the Any elk season (now any elk below 1100 m) and the new late season whitetail season. The turkey hunting enjoyed by bow and shotgun enthusiast, was brought to you by hard work and questionnaires distributed to land owners, through the UBBC.


The UBBC is relatively new and while there are no documented occurances of where the UBBC has "protected" the rights of hunting, there is a very real opportunity to be realized through a diversified approach if the UBBC can get the message through.

By providing enhanced opportunity, more hunting opportunity, by working towards education of hunters and non hunters, the UBBC will establish a framework where Government and hunters can work together and together secure hunter recruitment. Hunter recruitment and hunter retention are the essence of your right to hunt.

The current Youth hunts that so many people have opinions about was in fact the birth child of the TBBC/UBBC recognizing the need to involve youth in the hunt and focus on getting youth involved.

A quick synopsis.

JT

Kirby
12-28-2006, 08:23 PM
Kirby, Well your a bowhunter ,maybe you should explain why there is a special bowonly season instead of always playin' the devils advocate.

I did answer it, I just sent him a PM as any response on these threads warrents attacks, either by me:lol: or the other guys(you):lol:

Kirby

Rainwater
12-28-2006, 08:42 PM
I don't answer PM'S Kirby! NOT PMS.

FullDraw
12-28-2006, 09:24 PM
PM sent as to my post earlier, As always JT well said.
Ok boy's time to move on.

FullDraw

Kirby
12-28-2006, 09:42 PM
I don't answer PM'S Kirby! NOT PMS.

I didn't sent you one, I sent the Hermit one.

Who said anything about PMS?8):lol:


Kirby

FullDraw
12-28-2006, 09:56 PM
I know I sent Hermit one to, I guess Hermit is a popular guy.

FullDraw

Nails
12-28-2006, 11:01 PM
416 wrote
l used the search engine on this website and if the opinions expressed are indicative of the organization towards folks with crossbows,
I find a post such as this is for on thing which it had done raised( made people get PO). A person should investigate the org (UBBC) themselves then make a valid comment. I know it will take some effort. Key board courage should not be engaged or tolerated!!!!

UBBC is for hunters that use bows, that makes you a bowhunter and here's the link http://www.ubbc.ca/about/index.htm check it out.

The Hermit
12-29-2006, 08:50 PM
Aaarrgghhhh. Why did I beat myself over the head with a bat? Because it felt so good when i quit. Special bow opportunity reason's have been explained a million times. If a person can't figure out why it is tougher to bag an animal with a bow than it is with a rifle I don't think they should be allowed in the woods. This horse sh-t has got to stop. And this is why the rift between bow hunters and rifle hunters is widening!!!!

I wasn't asking about why it is tougher to hunt with a bow, that is rather obvious and it is exactly the reason I am taking up bow hunting... for a different kind of challenge!

I don't appreciate being ripped on for asking a simple question and accused of being lazy for not looking up and sorting through a mountain of crap to get some simple answers. If YOU don't have anything helpful to say then say nothing, and better yet ignore the thread.

Thanks to J_T and others for your insights and info. I'll likely be joining the UBBC this year.

Beverly
12-29-2006, 09:40 PM
OK so I just fired off my membership :)

Hermit- My thoughts after witnessing/ being ripped on myself as a crossbow hunter....well I'm going to try to understand from the inside instead of getting flack for asking relatively simple questions like you lol.

UBBC- As a business person & with much experience in non-profit groups, I have grave concerns as to your membership fee structure. You have only a certain percentage of resident hunters that have a keen interest in perhaps joining this org. If most of that percentage, do like I did and join as a lifetime member for $50......how will the org be run if there are mostly lifetime members lol? If all members join up as lifers and with perhaps a 5-10% increase in members a year that leaves very little coming in each year on membership fees eventually no???

Rainwater
12-29-2006, 10:09 PM
Just for interest Beverly did you buy a lifetime membership, I only bought the cheaper one.

Beverly
12-29-2006, 11:31 PM
I did the lifetime $50 membership.....hell most groups I belong to have a $50 yearly fee lol!

Gateholio
12-30-2006, 12:38 AM
2 questions:

#1 How many members does the ubbc have?

#2 has the UBBC made any inroads in opening up bow hunitng in areas previously closed to hunitng (semi urban/rural ares etc)

Judging from inroads some bow hunters have made in suburban areas in the USA, there is alt of opportunity to get some local bow hunting available!

Coyote
12-30-2006, 06:10 PM
Gatehouse and Beverly

RE membership fees: The UBBC is a lobby group whose purpose is to work for increased bowhunting opportunity. We don't hold shoots at this time, there are plenty of clubs to do that and we don't want to take away from their revenue. We don't own facilities so there is no cost there. We do have some expenses with maintaining the website, stationary, some travel for meetings . The idea is to keep the membership cost low. Right now it is VERY low in order to attract new members. We are aware of your concern and will be discussing membership fees in the new year. I suspect they will be going up somewhat for exactly the reasons you stated.

How many members
Right now approximately 400.

What have we accomplished
We haven't been around long enough to have accomplished much but here is a list

Pre 2006:
1)met with Minister of Environment who stated that if we united the bowhunters of BC we would be considered stakeholders whan it came to wildlife management
2)Began forming an executive which was completed in 2006 with the exception of a director for region 2. We have an individual in mind at this time.


2006:
1)completed construction of the UBBC website www.ubbc.ca (http://www.ubbc.ca) which is up and running
2)Requested a meeting with the current minister. We are waiting for date confirmation.
3)emailed each region biologist (MoE) requesting we be consulted on issues that affect bowhunting.
4)have been consulted on several issues already and have a rep on the group working on the Todigan Wildlife Management Plan.
5)jointly submitted with the TBBC a youth hunting package recommendation. The gov't is interested in this recommendation.
6)Directors began canvassing for members

Plans for 2007

1)membership drive now that most things are in place.
2)first annual meeting probably in Merritt at the end of March
3)continued lobbying of gov't for bowhunting oppportunity.

Hope this gives you an idea of where things are at this time. Lots of work yet to do

Gord

GoatGuy
12-30-2006, 09:18 PM
Gatehouse and Beverly

RE membership fees: The UBBC is a lobby group whose purpose is to work for increased bowhunting opportunity. We don't hold shoots at this time, there are plenty of clubs to do that and we don't want to take away from their revenue. We don't own facilities so there is no cost there. We do have some expenses with maintaining the website, stationary, some travel for meetings . The idea is to keep the membership cost low. Right now it is VERY low in order to attract new members. We are aware of your concern and will be discussing membership fees in the new year. I suspect they will be going up somewhat for exactly the reasons you stated.

How many members
Right now approximately 400.

What have we accomplished
We haven't been around long enough to have accomplished much but here is a list

Pre 2006:
1)met with Minister of Environment who stated that if we united the bowhunters of BC we would be considered stakeholders whan it came to wildlife management
2)Began forming an executive which was completed in 2006 with the exception of a director for region 2. We have an individual in mind at this time.


2006:
1)completed construction of the UBBC website www.ubbc.ca (http://www.ubbc.ca) which is up and running
2)Requested a meeting with the current minister. We are waiting for date confirmation.
3)emailed each region biologist (MoE) requesting we be consulted on issues that affect bowhunting.
4)have been consulted on several issues already and have a rep on the group working on the Todigan Wildlife Management Plan.
5)jointly submitted with the TBBC a youth hunting package recommendation. The gov't is interested in this recommendation.
6)Directors began canvassing for members

Plans for 2007

1)membership drive now that most things are in place.
2)first annual meeting probably in Merritt at the end of March
3)continued lobbying of gov't for bowhunting oppportunity.

Hope this gives you an idea of where things are at this time. Lots of work yet to do

Gord

Nice to see an upfront and honest reply. Integrity goes a long way in my books. Good luck.

Rainwater
12-30-2006, 11:38 PM
Thank you for your reply Gord, look forward to the meeting in Merritt and concur with Goatguys comments on your reply.

J_T
12-31-2006, 10:02 AM
I'd like to make a point for everyone's benefit. I believe it is an important point and I make it with the intention of not flaming any angry fires.

The UBBC is very clear that it is a lobby group whose only purpose is more bowhunting opportunity. That does not mean opportunity at the expense of existing seasons. It means working with Government and finding ways to enhance both the quality and the quantity of the hunt.

The point I wanted to make here, is that if you ask the BCWF their position, I believe they will tell you they are not a lobby group at all. We might think they look and respond like one but I have been told they are not. That they are in some way prohibited from being a lobby group. I remember this clearly from my past BCWF days and perhaps it has changed.

So there is a distinction, when people see another provincial hunting group and they wonder why two or three groups might be required. The UBBC is focused on more hunting opportunity. For all.

JT

Tank
12-31-2006, 03:13 PM
There is definitely power in numbers, so I am finally going to stop procrastinating and join up. As a bowhunter in BC its the least I can do!

Beverly
12-31-2006, 09:50 PM
I believe they will tell you they are not a lobby group at all. We might think they look and respond like one but I have been told they are not. That they are in some way prohibited from being a lobby group. I remember this clearly from my past BCWF days and perhaps it has changed.



If they are a registered charity/ not for profit group this at times is the culprit, bounded by legality only. Most orgs are prohibited to get involved with political type stuff (must focus on their constitution/bylaws/mandate without getting too far off intentions).

Rainwater
01-25-2007, 10:00 AM
Time to re-energize this post. For all bowhunters information an "abeyance" (HOLD) has been put on all bowhunting regulations changes until the gov't can do a study. I have been led to believe that this was a result of a meeting with the MOE, CO's, Guides, Trappers and BCWF. What a shame that no Bowhunting organization was involved. If anyone has a desire to see the future of bowhunting BC stay or get stronger then now is the time to join the UBBC, they represent all hunters using archery equipment accepted by our government for use in a Bow Only season.

GoatGuy
01-25-2007, 05:36 PM
Time to re-energize this post. For all bowhunters information an "abeyance" (HOLD) has been put on all bowhunting regulations changes until the gov't can do a study. I have been led to believe that this was a result of a meeting with the MOE, CO's, Guides, Trappers and BCWF. What a shame that no Bowhunting organization was involved. If anyone has a desire to see the future of bowhunting BC stay or get stronger then now is the time to join the UBBC, they represent all hunters using archery equipment accepted by our government for use in a Bow Only season.

Led to believe and knowing are two very different things - heresay never helped anyone and recruiting out of spite based on conspiracy further detracts from integrity.

Intrisic thought will provide your answers.

The Bagman

FullDraw
01-25-2007, 06:07 PM
Here we go again! ding! ding!


F/D

Rainwater
01-25-2007, 07:02 PM
Intrisic thought, holy crap man speak english. I have a letter in writing from the Region 8 bio that states clearly that an abeyance has been put in place for All bowhunting changes. I have spoken to many people about how this came about and the heard it was brought about at a meeting in Prince George, now I ask any of you out there if you have first hand info about this meeting.??? Please, for Goatguys sake! Hey fulldraw I hope we never go into the ring because bowhunters are gonna lose.

FullDraw
01-25-2007, 09:10 PM
Rainy I hear you! Keep up the good fight!

FullDraw

GoatGuy
01-25-2007, 09:26 PM
Intrisic thought, holy crap man speak english. I have a letter in writing from the Region 8 bio that states clearly that an abeyance has been put in place for All bowhunting changes. I have spoken to many people about how this came about and the heard it was brought about at a meeting in Prince George, now I ask any of you out there if you have first hand info about this meeting.??? Please, for Goatguys sake! Hey fulldraw I hope we never go into the ring because bowhunters are gonna lose.

I have a bunch of buddies who were at the meeting; all I'm saying is get the facts first then post up.

An abeyance doesn't mean bow only seasons are coming to an end just that the Province and the majority of hunters are worried about hunting and hunters right now, not bowhunting.

You attract more bees with honey than you do with bull.

Rainwater
01-26-2007, 12:29 PM
So they are worried about hunting and the future of hunting in BC so they pick on bowhunters, interesting! An abeyance should be put on "all" regulations changes then. Could you please share what your buddies found out at the meeting or is that privelaged info. Thank you

GoatGuy
01-26-2007, 05:44 PM
So they are worried about hunting and the future of hunting in BC so they pick on bowhunters, interesting! An abeyance should be put on "all" regulations changes then. Could you please share what your buddies found out at the meeting or is that privelaged info. Thank you

There was all kinds of stuff discussed.

Pertaining to the future of hunting earlier youth seasons were discussed ie., deer/elk hunts in August. Sound like a great opportunity.

Bow seasons were also discussed and a couple of managers stated their frustrations with dealing with bowhunters - also I think the ministry is well aware that bow seasons do not create more hunters only more opportunity for hunters.

Also lots of talk about allocation policy and a couple of bios, including ours in 8, were asking a lot of questions and weren't happy AT ALL about it. They are on our side in many parts of the Province.

Nobody's against bowhunting they're just worried more about hunting. Once youth seasons seasons and a bunch of hunts are taken off of limited entry I'm sure there will be time for special interest groups.

Coyote
01-26-2007, 07:33 PM
Goatguy please tell me about the frustration the managers have with bowhunters.
Also tell me why bow seasons don't create more hunters

Not wanting to throw gas on the fire, just want an honest and frank answer.

GoatGuy
01-26-2007, 10:27 PM
Sure, the overwhelming majority of bowhunters are opportunistic rifle hunters. Bowhunting doesn't create new hunters, it creates more bow hunters and additional opportunities (which isn't a bad thing!). Recruitment into hunting, including most current day bow-only hunters, occured through rifle hunting first. In hunting there's often a progression from small game to large; it's much easier to pick up a .22 and go hunt grouse than it is to practice for hundreds of hours, learn habitat and behaviour and go chase deer.

A parralel can be slide over to fishing: if you wanted to recruit more fishers you wouldn't make them learn how to cast a spey rod efficiently, learn the behaviours and habitat of steelhead and send them out on the Thompson. You'd find that many of the 'potential' recruits wouldn't make it through such an unessecary and discriminating 'hazing' process.

To be recruited into hunting, success needs to come relatively easily and quickly; that isn't the case with bowhunting. The flip side is in youth or general season any weapon can be used; in short, no discrimination occurs and the potential for creating more hunters is much greater because you're drawing from a greater 'talent' pool if you will. Also, you don't alienate current hunters by further, unessecarily, restricting their choices in hunting methods.

Managers are getting tired because bowhunters don't want youth seasons overlapping in their seasons - it's seen as selfish. Using science based decisions managers know that the reasons such as: safety concerns, being scoped by youth hunters, comparing BC to other jurisdictions regarding bow opportunities with no examination of ecology and having hunts ruined by youth are not valid.

MOE EEE's time is limited; they get paid a salary to show up for 40 hrs./week. They're all on board with youth and the future of hunting and it's taking up a lot of their time - there will again be many new seasons created this year for youth which is fantastic! On a 40 hr work week catering to a limited percentage of special interests is neither productive for taxpayers or hunting. Once and if hunter numbers start increasing I'm sure there will be all kinds of time for additional opportunities which hunters and hunting support. For now the focus is on the future of hunting, not bowhunters. Having said that, it doesn't mean anyones against bowhunting either.

Rainwater
01-26-2007, 11:20 PM
Goatguy, You have no statistics showing "the majority of bowhunters are opportunistic rifle hunters". I don't care how many polls you do!! The frustration by bio's and managers can be directly related to the following. Bowhunters were not being consulted with, respected or in some cases not even allowed at the table in regards to regulation changes. They had offered good solutions to more enhanced opportunities for all bowhunters, have a great Youth Hunting package which will work to recruit new hunters and are helping to recruit new hunters of all types presently. We had to form our own organizations as we were not being represented by the BCWF, this is where the frustration lies for our managers. Now instead of dealing with one organization speaking for all hunters they now have to listen to the Bowhunting organizations and in some cases meet with them separately just like they do with the BCWF. Not only frustration but a waste of their valueable time and money. The Managers and bios in our Region have always been offered the best of treatment by Bowhunting advocacy groups and I challenge anyone to say different from MOE.

Gateholio
01-27-2007, 12:38 AM
Goatguy, You have no statistics showing "the majority of bowhunters are opportunistic rifle hunters". I don't care how many polls you do!! .


Rainwater, you are probably correct in this. There does not seem to be any stats that say "bowhunters are opportunistic rifle hunters"

There is a small - and I emphasize SMALL- group of BC hunters that are BOW ONLY hunters.

In my experience, with a group of 200 or so... there are 1..maybe 2 guys that hunt with BOW ONLY. The rest hunt with whatever the season allows them. many hunt wiht a bow because they enjoy it, or because there is an added season, and at least 2 young fellows I know hunt with bows because they have been prohibited from owning firearms due to stupid things like bar brawls when they were 18 years old...

But the majority of the guys that I know that hunt with bows, do it in conjunction with rifles, and they either bowhunt in GOS, or they bowhunt because they can get an added season.

I have never met a hunter, ever- that said "I am getting into hunting because of bowhunting" Except me- Who got into hunting becauseof circumstance, and I had a bow and a 15 yr olds desire to hunt...But i woudl have rathe rused a gun!!

I have helped 5 people into hunting in the last 3 years, and NONE of them have expressed ANY interest in bowhunting. And it is not because I have discouraged them, it is jus that it never came up...They approached me and asked me "what rifle do I need?"

Bowhunitng may be GROWING, but it is not attracting big numbers of NEW hunters...

I have no problem wiht bowhuting, I have done it and probably wll do it in the future, but special bow seasons(or any special seasons) are very secondary to overall hunting recruitment, IMHO;.

Kirby
01-27-2007, 02:51 AM
Goatguy, You have no statistics showing "the majority of bowhunters are opportunistic rifle hunters". I don't care how many polls you do!!

Can you provide data that shows most bowhunters aren't opportunistic rifle hunters??

Also I asked before about getting a copy of this letter, is it public knowledge? or is this for the select few?

Goat guy is right, special rights come after the fact of increasing HUNTER numbers. Bowhunters ARE JUST HUNTERS!!! Without hunting bowhunting is screwed.

Kirby

J_T
01-27-2007, 09:08 AM
also I think the ministry is well aware that bow seasons do not create more hunters only more opportunity for hunters.
I would challenge that as a horrible assumption. Regardless. It's a wonderful day that a hunter might have choices. "Do I hunt with my rifle or my bow?" What is wrong with that? Nothing. It will depend on where the hunter feels he has the best odds for success. (Success not always defined as killing)

IF we really want to improve something here - let's say it's hunter recruitment - we need to be more open about how that might occur. Part of the dilemma we are facing is because we are not willing to look or think outside the box.

Archery seasons have huge potential to create new opportunity for all hunters and increase hunter numbers. Absolutely.

Current restrictions/barriers/hurdles to using a firearm are a detriment to youth involvement in the non-hunting family. To increase hunter numbers there must be new hunters coming from outside the existing hunting community (family members). Very difficult for the single mother to assist her son or daughter in firearm licensing in many cases. Not so hard to buy that son or daughter a bow.

The bow, if promoted properly and if sufficient seasons exist, could have people interested in hunting, thinking, "gee, I don't have to go through all those firearms licencing hurdles to hunt" and there appear to be lots of opportunity. Why is it so difficult for the non-bowhunter to think this isn't going to happen? There are lots of fishermen out there that fly fish only and in many areas we have barbless fishing. But people are still fishing.

With respect to seasons, we seem to be fighting over the same period of time. Let's consider for a moment that an archery hunt can occur in January. (Don't give me that stuff about animal vulnerability. We're killing them) With a rifle a January hunt can't even be considered. But an archery hunt could be a very real possibility. Treestanding whitetails in January would have very little negative impact on the animals ability to feed, rest and move about.

There are so many hunting opportunities waiting to happen here in BC and there are so many ways to increase hunter numbers here, yet in BC we just can't seem to get our head out of the sand and see the potential. I'm not saying reduce rifle hunting at all. I'm saying increase opportunity, provide the non hunter new ways to find hunting.


Managers are getting tired because bowhunters don't want youth seasons overlapping in their seasons That is not correct. It is bowhunters that first promoted youth seasons. It is bowhunters who have been providing the ministry with great ideas on how to involve youth. What bowhunters are opposed to is a youth rifle season overlapping what might be a youth archery season. It isn't fair for the youth. But your statement clearly supports what we have known all along. Most people don't get it. They see the bowhunter position as selfish. And it isn't.

In another post I was accused of judging a 9 year old girl. It was a valid point. I didn't do my research on the young phenom. And I would make a similar point here, if people haven't bowhunted, how can they pass judgement on bowhunters?

Gatehouse. Just about every non hunter I speak with, loves that fact that I hunt with a bow. Many have begun shooting the bow, in hopes that they may one day become hunters. No guns.

J_T
01-27-2007, 09:12 AM
Can you provide data that shows most bowhunters aren't opportunistic rifle hunters??
Kirby, the truth is, they likely are. But here in BC the data we collect on hunting is neither complete nor accurate.

JT

willyqbc
01-27-2007, 09:33 AM
I have never met a hunter, ever- that said "I am getting into hunting because of bowhunting"

With all due respect Gate....how much time do you spend amongst the archery community here in B.C.?? I see it all the time both while coaching our junior program and while out on the competitive circuit. I have kids from our program and their parents coming up to me quite often inquiring as to what would be required for their kid to start hunting with their bow, keep in mind these are not young rifle hunters wanting to make a switch......they are interested in hunting because of their interest in archery.
The same holds true with adults at competitive events. We always end up talking about hunting around the campfire at night and there is no telling how many newbies get the initial spark to go hunting from that. I'l give you a great example of how this works. My wife NEVER had any interest in hunting until she took up competitive archery. As she learned and heard all the great stories of being up close and personal with the animals she decided her goal was to become a bowhunter.....now here is where we lose credit for creating a new hunter. We decided that because of the difficulty of bowhunting we would start her with a rifle to get some experience and build some confidence before moving on to bowhunting. Does that mean that she is an "opportunistic" rifle hunter that is just taking advantage??....of course not but that will be the perception.
The other area we need to consider besides recruitment is "retainment". There is evidence that crap like the gun registry is a deterant to hunting, so how many people out there continued to hunt because they could do so without the hassle that goes along with firearms these days?? I know my own father (oldtimer) quit hunting for 10 years because he was fed up with the gun crap.....bowhunting brought him back, I'm sure he's not the only one.

Point of all this is that there is many ways to keep hunter numbers healthy and on the rise, and bowhunting opportunities DEFINATELY help in that. The more opportunities there are the more people will take advantage of them and the more chance the spark will rub off on their kids or someone else. It's like investments...a diversified portfolio is the strongest and safest.

Gateholio
01-27-2007, 09:52 AM
Willy

Good points, and I clearly am not 100% correct.

I dont' spend much time wiht archery segments because they are small in numbers around here. There are a few that only hunt wiht bows, but mostly there are rifle hunters that also use bows.

There are a couple of guys in our club that have expressed an interest in adding a archery course to our range, and I certianly gave them the green light to go ahead.

Maybe we will see more peopel attracted to huitng becuase of bows, and that woudl be great.

Your points abotu retention are also good, thanks for pointing that out.

Bow Walker
01-27-2007, 10:18 AM
Sure, the overwhelming majority of bowhunters are opportunistic rifle hunters. Bowhunting doesn't create new hunters, it creates more bow hunters and additional opportunities (which isn't a bad thing!). Recruitment into hunting, including most current day bow-only hunters, occured through rifle hunting first. In hunting there's often a progression from small game to large; it's much easier to pick up a .22 and go hunt grouse than it is to practice for hundreds of hours, learn habitat and behaviour and go chase deer.

A parralel can be slide over to fishing: if you wanted to recruit more fishers you wouldn't make them learn how to cast a spey rod efficiently, learn the behaviours and habitat of steelhead and send them out on the Thompson. You'd find that many of the 'potential' recruits wouldn't make it through such an unessecary and discriminating 'hazing' process.

To be recruited into hunting, success needs to come relatively easily and quickly; that isn't the case with bowhunting. The flip side is in youth or general season any weapon can be used; in short, no discrimination occurs and the potential for creating more hunters is much greater because you're drawing from a greater 'talent' pool if you will. Also, you don't alienate current hunters by further, unessecarily, restricting their choices in hunting methods.

Managers are getting tired because bowhunters don't want youth seasons overlapping in their seasons - it's seen as selfish. Using science based decisions managers know that the reasons such as: safety concerns, being scoped by youth hunters, comparing BC to other jurisdictions regarding bow opportunities with no examination of ecology and having hunts ruined by youth are not valid.

MOE EEE's time is limited; they get paid a salary to show up for 40 hrs./week. They're all on board with youth and the future of hunting and it's taking up a lot of their time - there will again be many new seasons created this year for youth which is fantastic! On a 40 hr work week catering to a limited percentage of special interests is neither productive for taxpayers or hunting. Once and if hunter numbers start increasing I'm sure there will be all kinds of time for additional opportunities which hunters and hunting support. For now the focus is on the future of hunting, not bowhunters. Having said that, it doesn't mean anyones against bowhunting either.

I have got to call B.S. on the first statement that is highlited. It is pure and utter crap.....back it up with facts!

Just because there are some gun hunters who say that they get a bow (be it X-bow or other) just to extend thier time in the bush does not equate to the statement that is posted! Try not to generalize.

As far as the second statement goes.....I can't say one way or the other on the first part - but, the second part is something that I can comment on.

....bowhunters don't want youth seasons overlapping in their seasons - it's seen as selfish...
It may be "seen as selfish" but we all know (or feel) differently. Yes, I know that I am generalizing here, but I feel strongly that the main reason is the same one behind having seperate bow and gun seasons at the first of the year - and that is, concerns about safety.

When a young hunter first goes out, it will be with a gun - not a bow, in the "overwhelming majority" of the times. Supervised, of course.....that is until it comes time to shoot. Then it is all up to the novice. Sure the novice may have spent time at the range shooting a few times, but that is most definetly NOT hunting conditions.

Hence the concern for safety among bow hunters - who are constrained to get very close to there quarry, well within range of an excited,hurried, stray bullet.

As always - Just one man's opinion.

Rainwater
01-27-2007, 10:45 AM
First and foremost for you guys out there using the term "opportunistic rifle hunters". Maybe you should sit back and really think about what that sounds like to guys that might be dual hunters, gun and bow??? Or for that matter rifle hunters period!! Or heaven forbid, anti-hunters. KIRBY, I am sorry but what letter would you like a copy of?? Regards All.

Gateholio
01-27-2007, 11:23 AM
The term "opportunistic rifle hunters" is not necessarily a bad term, it's just saying that there ar emany guys that primarily hunt wiht arifle, but use a bow to take advantage of a special weapons season. No disrespect intended...8-)

J_T
01-27-2007, 11:30 AM
I guess I would simply use the term, "opportunistic hunters" which is really what most hunters are.

Which also lends to the thought, that if more bowhunting opportunities where available, we could begin to use subset terms of "opportunistic bowhunter" and "opportunistic rifle hunter".

:) JT

Gateholio
01-27-2007, 01:21 PM
Which brings up the question...

If you only fly fish on waters that require fly fishing, are you an opportunistic gear angler?:lol: 8-) :lol:

Kirby
01-27-2007, 01:25 PM
Rainwater I am talking about the letter that was forwarded to the ubbc about bowhunting seasons.

Kirby

Rainwater
01-27-2007, 02:10 PM
The letter I have is from the Region 8 bio stating the abeyance on bowhunting changes, do you want a copy?

Kirby
01-27-2007, 03:15 PM
The letter I have is from the Region 8 bio stating the abeyance on bowhunting changes, do you want a copy?

Please, I would like a copy, and if anybody else has any info on this I would like to see it.

Kirby

GoatGuy
01-27-2007, 03:41 PM
Please, I would like a copy, and if anybody else has any info on this I would like to see it.

Kirby

I'll fire it your way.

GoatGuy
01-27-2007, 03:43 PM
Which brings up the question...

If you only fly fish on waters that require fly fishing, are you an opportunistic gear angler?:lol: 8-) :lol:

Different bird as gear anglers often aren't given the choice to fish certain waters.

Having said that, it's a no brainer that most fly fishers start out as gear and bait chuckers.

GoatGuy
01-27-2007, 04:00 PM
I would challenge that as a horrible assumption. Regardless. It's a wonderful day that a hunter might have choices. "Do I hunt with my rifle or my bow?" What is wrong with that? Nothing. It will depend on where the hunter feels he has the best odds for success. (Success not always defined as killing)

Agreed and that hunter can pick up either any day in GOS. The hunter can also pick up a rock, slingshot, spear and simple go in as a UFC competitor.

IF we really want to improve something here - let's say it's hunter recruitment - we need to be more open about how that might occur. Part of the dilemma we are facing is because we are not willing to look or think outside the box.

I'd love to see research based suggestions.

Archery seasons have huge potential to create new opportunity for all hunters and increase hunter numbers. Absolutely.

GOS do not discriminate against anybody, bow, rifle, rock or knife. It's all about market share and by restricting weapons you restrict your share.

Current restrictions/barriers/hurdles to using a firearm are a detriment to youth involvement in the non-hunting family. To increase hunter numbers there must be new hunters coming from outside the existing hunting community (family members). Very difficult for the single mother to assist her son or daughter in firearm licensing in many cases. Not so hard to buy that son or daughter a bow.

That's very true and bows can be used in GOS; families could also buy their children slingshots and spears without being discriminated against by season.

The bow, if promoted properly and if sufficient seasons exist, could have people interested in hunting, thinking, "gee, I don't have to go through all those firearms licencing hurdles to hunt" and there appear to be lots of opportunity.

See above comments

Why is it so difficult for the non-bowhunter to think this isn't going to happen? There are lots of fishermen out there that fly fish only and in many areas we have barbless fishing. But people are still fishing.

I don't know about non-bowhunters, I have a compound but haven't hunted with it in the last 3 years due to time restrictions. My old man has shot a recurve for the last 15 years. Eventhough the first kill I was in on as a 5 yr old was with a bow he certainly didn't start me with one.

Fishing numbers are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY down; the government is looking at getting rid of those restrictions because they have killed off fishers. If you don't believe me ask Brian Chan; he's one of the best fly fishers in the province and he's the first one to say that making fly only lakes hasn't been overly conducive to fisher numbers.

With respect to seasons, we seem to be fighting over the same period of time. Let's consider for a moment that an archery hunt can occur in January. (Don't give me that stuff about animal vulnerability. We're killing them) With a rifle a January hunt can't even be considered. But an archery hunt could be a very real possibility. Treestanding whitetails in January would have very little negative impact on the animals ability to feed, rest and move about.

Sounds exciting! Get support of bios and you'll have support of hunters.

There are so many hunting opportunities waiting to happen here in BC and there are so many ways to increase hunter numbers here, yet in BC we just can't seem to get our head out of the sand and see the potential. I'm not saying reduce rifle hunting at all. I'm saying increase opportunity, provide the non hunter new ways to find hunting.

Nobody's doing that; we're trying to encourage it. Get a proposal for an August private property season proposal which would be great for youth and everyone's up in arms about you name it: too many out of regioners, safety concerns, what about bowhunters?????? And on and on and on.

That is not correct. It is bowhunters that first promoted youth seasons. It is bowhunters who have been providing the ministry with great ideas on how to involve youth. What bowhunters are opposed to is a youth rifle season overlapping what might be a youth archery season. It isn't fair for the youth. But your statement clearly supports what we have known all along. Most people don't get it. They see the bowhunter position as selfish. And it isn't.

Now it isn't fair to youth! :eek: Tell me why it's now about youth and not about bowhunters. You're sugar coating JT!

In another post I was accused of judging a 9 year old girl. It was a valid point. I didn't do my research on the young phenom. And I would make a similar point here, if people haven't bowhunted, how can they pass judgement on bowhunters?

Being a bowhunter I don't know! :lol:

GoatGuy
01-27-2007, 04:13 PM
I guess I would simply use the term, "opportunistic hunters" which is really what most hunters are.

Which also lends to the thought, that if more bowhunting opportunities where available, we could begin to use subset terms of "opportunistic bowhunter" and "opportunistic rifle hunter".

:) JT

Very funny, glad you're keeping your sense of haha!

GoatGuy
01-27-2007, 04:30 PM
Quote = BowWalker I have got to call B.S. on the first statement that is highlited. It is pure and utter crap.....back it up with facts!

Just because there are some gun hunters who say that they get a bow (be it X-bow or other) just to extend thier time in the bush does not equate to the statement that is posted! Try not to generalize.

Here's what I know: Most hunters are recruited through their father's, start hunting before the age of 19 and start on small game first. This includes rabbits, grouse, geese, ducks, squirells and a couple of small critters. Do to a lack of patience young hunters need to be sorrounded by opportunity and the ensuing succes; success is measured by atleast 7 motivational factors - one of the greatest is harvesting or having the opportunity to harvest. Success with a bow as a 10 year old is extremely limited in the above given conditions and natural recruitment pre-reqs.

I also know that hunters numbers are way, way down; recruitment has been in the gutter since the late 80s. Basically hunters are dropping out and very, very few new licenses are being sold. Oppositely bowhunter numbers have increased (the opposite of the states which have been stable to decreasing for 10 years) during the same period of time.

Now if overall hunter numbers have declined by 50%+ and we experienced very little recruitment, but bowhunters numbers have increased greatly it means the increase in bowhunters is due to rifle hunters taking up the activity. That is very simple math and easy to see.

I'll also draw on 3 seperate focus groups, 2 in person, which involved a F&G club with an archery range and several archers - these focus groups represent a good sample of the resident hunter population and none of these hunters began hunting with a bow.

Those are the facts.


As far as the second statement goes.....I can't say one way or the other on the first part - but, the second part is something that I can comment on.

....bowhunters don't want youth seasons overlapping in their seasons - it's seen as selfish...
It may be "seen as selfish" but we all know (or feel) differently. Yes, I know that I am generalizing here, but I feel strongly that the main reason is the same one behind having seperate bow and gun seasons at the first of the year - and that is, concerns about safety.

When a young hunter first goes out, it will be with a gun - not a bow, in the "overwhelming majority" of the times. Supervised, of course.....that is until it comes time to shoot. Then it is all up to the novice. Sure the novice may have spent time at the range shooting a few times, but that is most definetly NOT hunting conditions.

You're making it seem like the youth is blind and the adult supervising can't see the deer or area sorrouding the deer - -- - this is, hmmm, very creative.

What about when the real bowhunters are out in rifle season,
stalking their quarry, well within range of an excited hurried, stray bullet. Sounds like you'd be laying your life on the line! Wouldn't venture out in any kind of rifle season if I was a bowhunter.

Hence the concern for safety among bow hunters - who are constrained to get very close to there quarry, well within range of an excited,hurried, stray bullet.

Oh my! :eek:

As always - Just one man's opinion.

GoatGuy
01-27-2007, 04:36 PM
With all due respect Gate....how much time do you spend amongst the archery community here in B.C.?? I see it all the time both while coaching our junior program and while out on the competitive circuit. I have kids from our program and their parents coming up to me quite often inquiring as to what would be required for their kid to start hunting with their bow, keep in mind these are not young rifle hunters wanting to make a switch......they are interested in hunting because of their interest in archery.
The same holds true with adults at competitive events. We always end up talking about hunting around the campfire at night and there is no telling how many newbies get the initial spark to go hunting from that. I'l give you a great example of how this works. My wife NEVER had any interest in hunting until she took up competitive archery. As she learned and heard all the great stories of being up close and personal with the animals she decided her goal was to become a bowhunter.....now here is where we lose credit for creating a new hunter. We decided that because of the difficulty of bowhunting we would start her with a rifle to get some experience and build some confidence before moving on to bowhunting. Does that mean that she is an "opportunistic" rifle hunter that is just taking advantage??....of course not but that will be the perception.
The other area we need to consider besides recruitment is "retainment". There is evidence that crap like the gun registry is a deterant to hunting, so how many people out there continued to hunt because they could do so without the hassle that goes along with firearms these days?? I know my own father (oldtimer) quit hunting for 10 years because he was fed up with the gun crap.....bowhunting brought him back, I'm sure he's not the only one.

Point of all this is that there is many ways to keep hunter numbers healthy and on the rise, and bowhunting opportunities DEFINATELY help in that. The more opportunities there are the more people will take advantage of them and the more chance the spark will rub off on their kids or someone else. It's like investments...a diversified portfolio is the strongest and safest.

Willy nobody's saying bowhunting shouldn't exist and that it won't attract ANY new hunters but that it is not the best way to recruit hunters. I definitely believe you about the sense of community - that's part of hunting .

Having bowhunters say that not being able to put up with less than 500 licensed youth in the entire Province, of which maybe, on an exceptionally good year 200-250 actually participate in a junior season which overlaps with bow seasons is absurd.

Nice post btw!

willyqbc
01-27-2007, 04:58 PM
I would challenge that as a horrible assumption. Regardless. It's a wonderful day that a hunter might have choices. "Do I hunt with my rifle or my bow?" What is wrong with that? Nothing. It will depend on where the hunter feels he has the best odds for success. (Success not always defined as killing)

Agreed and that hunter can pick up either any day in GOS. The hunter can also pick up a rock, slingshot, spear and simple go in as a UFC competitor.

while that hunter can choose to pick up a bow during the GOS, his/her chances for success drop drastically once the guns start going off. No I don't have any imperical evidnce to back this but I probably talk to more bowhunters in a year than most people do in 20 and the anecdotal evidence strongly indicates this is the case. Quality of the hunt is something that seems to be overlooked in this. Nothing is more of a deterrent to people than failure. Create a new opportunity where none existed before and give people a reasonable chance for success and you will create happy hunters who will spread the word.

IF we really want to improve something here - let's say it's hunter recruitment - we need to be more open about how that might occur. Part of the dilemma we are facing is because we are not willing to look or think outside the box.

I'd love to see research based suggestions.

Well lets look at LEH for an example....It is quite apperant that residents are VERY frustrated with the current LEH system because they feel they never seem to get a tag....leading to disgruntled hunters who are one step closer to leaving the sport. Based on rifle success rates the ministry allows 3 LEH tags to go out for every moose they want harvested. Research on bowhunting success rates indicates that the ministry could allow 10 tags for every moose they want harvested. So, as an example if you had an AAH of 500 moose for region 5 and they were all going out as standard Bull tags.....1500 hunters would be able to take to the feild. Now if you set aside 50 for archery tags you would still have 1350 "any weapon" tags going out but you would also be able to offer 500 archery tags thus increasing participation by 350 hunters with the same harvest results expected.

Archery seasons have huge potential to create new opportunity for all hunters and increase hunter numbers. Absolutely.

GOS do not discriminate against anybody, bow, rifle, rock or knife. It's all about market share and by restricting weapons you restrict your share.

By not allowing lower impact/lower harvest success opportunities you are restricting the potential for new seasons. As an example....the "rural" seasons we have now simply WOULD NOT exist if they weren't archery or shotgun etc. Winter range hunts are NEVER, EVER going to be allowed for rifles or firearms of any kind, however an archery hunt in January as suggested above is much more within the realm of possibilities.
Unfortunately, not EVERYTHING can be made available to EVERYONE....in all aspects of our society, special interest groups generally exist because their is a niche that noone but they can fill....archery seasons are no exception.

Chris

willyqbc
01-27-2007, 05:05 PM
Willy nobody's saying bowhunting shouldn't exist and that it won't attract ANY new hunters but that it is not the best way to recruit hunters. I definitely believe you about the sense of community - that's part of hunting .

Having bowhunters say that not being able to put up with less than 500 licensed youth in the entire Province, of which maybe, on an exceptionally good year 200-250 actually participate in a junior season which overlaps with bow seasons is absurd.

Nice post btw!

HAHA...post overlap...we must have been typing at the same time so I will respond to this now

I fully realize that archery is not the "best" way to recruit new hunters, but making bowhunting too difficult and "not worth the effort" will eliminate that segment that it IS recruiting....we need all the recruitment we can get. As stated above....diversification can create strength.
As far as the youth issue goes, the idea is not that it is no fair to the adult bowhunter, but that it is not fair to the youth bowhunter to have to compete with the youth rifle hunter. Our youth package allows both groups the room to flourish and be successful, and maybe even take advantage of both opportunities without sacrificing the quality of hunt for either group!

Chris

Coyote
01-28-2007, 01:07 PM
Goat guy I disagree with you on this.
I, my sons and many others I know started bowhunting first. There are a lot of us in this category. I've been bowhunting since 1962 and have the experience to back that statement up. I hunted with a rifle for a while to feed my family but it gathers dust now. I also acknowledge that there are a lot of gunners that have come over to bowhunting. some of them are exclusively bowhunters now, others are two season hunters. Good bowhunting seasons will attract people to hunting in the future especially as gun laws continue on their current course. Keep in mind that gunner numbers are dropping and bowhunter numbers are rising.

As far as the managers being PO'ed at bowhunters re the youth season I also disagree. I think perhaps they don't understand the reason for our frustration. We have been working on that for the last year and we will have another region going to the bowhunters proposed youth season this year. It gives both bowhunter and firearm youth a better season than the current well intentioned but misguided youth seasons in regions 4 and 8.

'yote

Coyote
01-28-2007, 01:39 PM
Something I should add. BC is very different with respect to seasons and bowhunting opportunity than the rest of the country AND our neighbours to the south. In those areas bowhunting is a big time attraction for hunters. Don't judge the potential of bowhunting by the BC experience.

The other thing we have to do is quit looking backwards and predicting the future using the past. The times and demographics are changing. It's time BC caught up with the rest of the country. I'm not saying we want to turn the seasons upside down. I'm saying look to bowhunting for another tool for hunter recruitment and retention.

GoatGuy
01-28-2007, 11:03 PM
I would challenge that as a horrible assumption. Regardless. It's a wonderful day that a hunter might have choices. "Do I hunt with my rifle or my bow?" What is wrong with that? Nothing. It will depend on where the hunter feels he has the best odds for success. (Success not always defined as killing)

Agreed and that hunter can pick up either any day in GOS. The hunter can also pick up a rock, slingshot, spear and simple go in as a UFC competitor.

while that hunter can choose to pick up a bow during the GOS, his/her chances for success drop drastically once the guns start going off. No I don't have any imperical evidnce to back this but I probably talk to more bowhunters in a year than most people do in 20 and the anecdotal evidence strongly indicates this is the case. Quality of the hunt is something that seems to be overlooked in this. Nothing is more of a deterrent to people than failure. Create a new opportunity where none existed before and give people a reasonable chance for success and you will create happy hunters who will spread the word.

IF we really want to improve something here - let's say it's hunter recruitment - we need to be more open about how that might occur. Part of the dilemma we are facing is because we are not willing to look or think outside the box.

I'd love to see research based suggestions.

Well lets look at LEH for an example....It is quite apperant that residents are VERY frustrated with the current LEH system because they feel they never seem to get a tag....leading to disgruntled hunters who are one step closer to leaving the sport. Based on rifle success rates the ministry allows 3 LEH tags to go out for every moose they want harvested. Research on bowhunting success rates indicates that the ministry could allow 10 tags for every moose they want harvested. So, as an example if you had an AAH of 500 moose for region 5 and they were all going out as standard Bull tags.....1500 hunters would be able to take to the feild. Now if you set aside 50 for archery tags you would still have 1350 "any weapon" tags going out but you would also be able to offer 500 archery tags thus increasing participation by 350 hunters with the same harvest results expected.

Archery seasons have huge potential to create new opportunity for all hunters and increase hunter numbers. Absolutely.

GOS do not discriminate against anybody, bow, rifle, rock or knife. It's all about market share and by restricting weapons you restrict your share.

By not allowing lower impact/lower harvest success opportunities you are restricting the potential for new seasons. As an example....the "rural" seasons we have now simply WOULD NOT exist if they weren't archery or shotgun etc. Winter range hunts are NEVER, EVER going to be allowed for rifles or firearms of any kind, however an archery hunt in January as suggested above is much more within the realm of possibilities.
Unfortunately, not EVERYTHING can be made available to EVERYONE....in all aspects of our society, special interest groups generally exist because their is a niche that noone but they can fill....archery seasons are no exception.

Chris





Chris you touched on some of the soft skills and recruitment strategies.

Pulling out of LEH isn't a good idea because again you're alienating the majority of hunters; they atleast want the opportunity and even that has been killed off in the past 25 years due to regionals.

The other stuff is pretty good and I do agree -especially creating opportunity where there was none before. There are several areas of opportunity for primitive weapons and your posts give real meaning to true opportunity that could create more opportunity without restricting others.

Like I said before, right now we need to get working on the majority, get recruitment up, allocations dealt with and the resulting seasons in line and then we can look at the minorities. There are opportunities that would fit well with bowhunters especially in the urban/rural interface. You get 40 hours/week out of your bio's; at this point doesn't make sense when we're so worried about the future of hunting. If and when everyone gets on board and hunter numbers rise there will be room and time for these new opportunities.

GoatGuy
01-28-2007, 11:10 PM
[quote=Coyote]Goat guy I disagree with you on this.
I, my sons and many others I know started bowhunting first. There are a lot of us in this category. I've been bowhunting since 1962 and have the experience to back that statement up. I hunted with a rifle for a while to feed my family but it gathers dust now. I also acknowledge that there are a lot of gunners that have come over to bowhunting. some of them are exclusively bowhunters now, others are two season hunters. Good bowhunting seasons will attract people to hunting in the future especially as gun laws continue on their current course. Keep in mind that gunner numbers are dropping and bowhunter numbers are rising.

Don't chase witches with gun control - bowhunters could just as easily take it up with a rifle season. There have also been bow seasons for quite some time - it takes WAYYYYYYYYYYY longer to learn how to hunt with a bow than it ever will to take your PAL.

Basing your facts on these kinds of numbers (you and your kids) don't make good science. I could just as well say one of your buddies kids started bowhunting and after 5 years of not harvesting with a bow used a rifle! :lol: :lol: (sorry JT) The fact remains rifle hunting is and will be the most successfull form of creating the most new hunters.

As far as the managers being PO'ed at bowhunters re the youth season I also disagree. I think perhaps they don't understand the reason for our frustration. We have been working on that for the last year and we will have another region going to the bowhunters proposed youth season this year. It gives both bowhunter and firearm youth a better season than the current well intentioned but misguided youth seasons in regions 4 and 8.

There's nothing overly wrong with the youth package - there are a couple better ways for recruitment but it is a good idea. Misguided youth seasons? There's nothing misguided about them - I think there are better opportunities such as having any deer from mid aug all the way to sept 10th but you're gonna have to do some research on more than 4 people to sell me that one.

GoatGuy
01-28-2007, 11:18 PM
[quote=Coyote]Something I should add. BC is very different with respect to seasons and bowhunting opportunity than the rest of the country AND our neighbours to the south. In those areas bowhunting is a big time attraction for hunters. Don't judge the potential of bowhunting by the BC experience.

Western States also have very few seasons related to bowhunting. I've heard this argument all the time but the argument has never, ever touched on ecology. On top of all that the other jurisdictions need to manage their game entirely differently for several reasons related to conservation not because bowhunters wanted it. To top all this off bowhunters have not increased in the US in the past 10 years- so are their bow seasons working??? I've been brushing up on what's happened in other jurisdictions and let me tell you bow only ain't the way to go. Bow seasons in other jurisdictions have come as neccessities not because managers wanted to change hunting.

The other thing we have to do is quit looking backwards and predicting the future using the past. The times and demographics are changing. It's time BC caught up with the rest of the country. I'm not saying we want to turn the seasons upside down. I'm saying look to bowhunting for another tool for hunter recruitment and retention.

See above - as I said bowhunter numbers have not increased in the states in the past 10 years. It doesn't seem to be a good entry level tool for recruitment and has actually been a significant deterrent for the majority of hunters.

Once I get everything together on this I promise to share.:)

Rainwater
01-29-2007, 11:10 AM
I am not sure why we even compare other states and provinces to us. We have opportunity here for further bowonly seasons and guys want to utilize them. There are lots of examples of recent increases in bowhunting opportunities that were overwhelming success's. If we don't keep "ALL" hunters interested in hunting, recruitment will be zero. Now the Ministry may be considering keeping regulations simplified because, well I guess, people just can't read. Of course simplification will come at a cost to guess who, bowhunters. It states clearly in the Wildlife Harvest Strategy that Bow seasons will normally occur 9 days prior to and/0r 10 days following the general open season. It states that Archery-only Elk, Caribou, Moose and Black bear seasons, where in effect, will normally occur prior to the general open season. Exclusive archery only seasons may be prescribed in areas deemed unsafe for the discharge of rifles or shotguns. Now when we see all future bowhunting regulations put on hold I hope you bowhunters can see the goddamn light, or at least be able to read between the lines. Forget about all the rhetoric and arguing back and forth, if your a BOWHUNTER (even one that hunts with a gun) and likes or would like better bowseasons you had better join the UBBC, the future of bowhunting in YOUR Province is in jeopardy by the powers to be.

BCrams
01-29-2007, 12:39 PM
I can contribute to the stats.

I, and everyone I know who bowhunts are primarily rifle hunters. We all bought bows simply to take advantage of the extra hunting time we can get from the bow only season in Sept and December.

I hardly think bowhunting is in jeapardy because one can hunt with a bow all hunting season alongside with rifle hunters.

I don't buy the arguement that it is unsafe or that you're up against all these other people with rifles or because game is spooked. Setting up a treestand over a mineral lick or meadow for moose, or game trails for deer is highly effective no matter when you do it. I've also had bull elk come within bow range during the open rifle season.

I find it pretty easy to escape the crowds during rifle season that I would not be discouraged to carry a bow if I chose to pursue an animal with a stick and string that day.

Rainwater
01-29-2007, 04:12 PM
BCRams, Well if you don't like extra opportunity then do not join the UBBC or any other bowhunting advocacy group. We will just keep doing all the hard work and let you enjoy the fruits of our labour.

Rainwater
01-29-2007, 04:16 PM
PS BC Rams, Your statement that you hardly think bowhunting is in jeopardy actually contradicts your first statement which is that most rifle hunters only hunt with a bow because of the extra early and late season. I can only assume then that you would not hunt with a bow UNLESS there WERE Bowonly seasons, too bad, another one bites the dust, more hunters and opportunities down the tube.

BCrams
01-29-2007, 04:37 PM
BCRams, Well if you don't like extra opportunity then do not join the UBBC or any other bowhunting advocacy group. We will just keep doing all the hard work and let you enjoy the fruits of our labour.

Last I checked, the opportunity is already there and has been for a long time. Long before UBBC existed.

BCrams
01-29-2007, 04:42 PM
I can only assume then that you would not hunt with a bow UNLESS there WERE Bowonly seasons.

You're right, you can only assume - that is until I tell you that I have chosen to hunt with my bow during the regular hunting season many times!

Aside from the current 'bow-only' opportunities that already exist and the likelihood that they will not go away.....

A question:

What more are you looking for considering you can choose to hunt with a bow from August 1st (sheep) or August 15th (northern hunts) or September 1st through to December 10th with some other bow seasons going longer?

Rainwater
01-29-2007, 05:42 PM
BCRams, It wasn't really an assumption that you wouldn't bowhunt because you said " we all got bows to simply take advantage of the extra seasons". So in fact you answer all of your own questions. Bowhunters utilize and want BOWONLY seasons. Not really gonna explain why we want them to you cause it's obvious you know and like them. Yes the UBBC is a fairly new organization spearheaded by the same guys that fought for BOWONLY seasons in a neighbourhood near yours. The UBBC was formed at the request of the Minister of Environment and was born out of the necessity for the proper representation of bowhunters at the table. A list of seasons at our table (Region 8) is ongoing but now stalled thanks to certain people, sorry "abeyed". Early Elk Region 8, Early Grouse to coincide with early deer, Bow for Mulies from Nov. 11 to Dec. 10 (not Nov. 25-Dec 10 as it is now) Moose early if you get an LEH, California Bighorn Archery LEH, all great ideas and all on the books with no place to go. Hey we even have more ideas than that and I am sure your bowhunting UBBC rep in your region could help you with that or any ideas you may have. Now lets not argue about the symantics of a BOWONLY season cause that's really gettin old and does not any further explaining.

BCrams
01-29-2007, 06:02 PM
You don't need to tell me what I already know the UBBC wishes to have implemented.

The talk evolves around hunter recruitment which has dropped. I have another question for you:

Without taking away the existing bow seasons, what if we changed those ideas the UBBC has and have those seasons you propose and instead create those opportunities for youth / disabled / senior rifle hunters with less restrictions and even create more rifle hunt opportunities for hunters to harvest game.

Which would likely have more recruitment? A bow only - or a hunts that favour rifle hunters in the youth/disabled/senior category?

Don't get me wrong - I agree some minor changes would be of benefit such as allowing successful LEH moose hunters to pursue their moose from Sept 1st - Sept 9th with their bows as well as during throughout the rest of the season.

jessbennett
01-29-2007, 07:29 PM
yeah like having the youth rifle season during an "early archery season.......:roll:

willyqbc
01-29-2007, 11:34 PM
Which would likely have more recruitment? A bow only - or a hunts that favour rifle hunters in the youth/disabled/senior category?


BCRams....We all agree that youth is a priority but differ on how to deal with recruiting them.....but seniors and disabled hunters as a big recruitment demographic???? C'mon now...how many 65+ people out there are going to just start a hunting career? And disabled hunters must account for what.....1/10th of 1% of the hunters in this province? Hardly the demographic groups that are gonna save hunting in this province.

I fail to understand the belief that every new oportunity should be open to rifle hunting...the fact of the matter is that the success of rifle hunting restricts the amount of potential opportunity in our current regulations. Before you all get pissed, let me explain. As we all know there is a finite amount of animals that the ministry will allow to be taken...also known as the "annual allowable harvest". While there isn't a rock solid number it is believed that it will take 4 1/2 - 5 times longer to harvest a deer with a bow than with a rifle. I believe the numbers were something like 20 hunter days/harvest with rifle and 90 hunter days/harvest with a bow. Seems to me we can have a whole lot more people hunting for a whole lot longer without surpassing the annual allowable harvest if we incorperate lower success hunting methods.
Should there be enhanced opportunity for youth, seniors, disabled??? Hell yeah, I'm all for that....course I'm a bit naive too, thinking that there is time and room in this little ol province of ours for ALL user groups to have a peice of the pie that will make them happy.

Chris

GoatGuy
01-30-2007, 03:44 AM
A list of seasons at our table (Region 8) is ongoing but now stalled thanks to certain people, sorry "abeyed". Early Elk Region 8, Early Grouse to coincide with early deer, Bow for Mulies from Nov. 11 to Dec. 10 (not Nov. 25-Dec 10 as it is now) Moose early if you get an LEH, California Bighorn Archery LEH, all great ideas and all on the books with no place to go. Hey we even have more ideas than that and I am sure your bowhunting UBBC rep in your region could help you with that or any ideas you may have. Now lets not argue about the symantics of a BOWONLY season cause that's really gettin old and does not any further explaining.

What about a youth season from Nov.11-18th??? What da ya think?

GoatGuy
01-30-2007, 03:51 AM
BCRams....We all agree that youth is a priority but differ on how to deal with recruiting them.....but seniors and disabled hunters as a big recruitment demographic???? C'mon now...how many 65+ people out there are going to just start a hunting career? And disabled hunters must account for what.....1/10th of 1% of the hunters in this province? Hardly the demographic groups that are gonna save hunting in this province.

I fail to understand the belief that every new oportunity should be open to rifle hunting...the fact of the matter is that the success of rifle hunting restricts the amount of potential opportunity in our current regulations. Before you all get pissed, let me explain. As we all know there is a finite amount of animals that the ministry will allow to be taken...also known as the "annual allowable harvest". While there isn't a rock solid number it is believed that it will take 4 1/2 - 5 times longer to harvest a deer with a bow than with a rifle. I believe the numbers were something like 20 hunter days/harvest with rifle and 90 hunter days/harvest with a bow. Seems to me we can have a whole lot more people hunting for a whole lot longer without surpassing the annual allowable harvest if we incorperate lower success hunting methods.
Should there be enhanced opportunity for youth, seniors, disabled??? Hell yeah, I'm all for that....course I'm a bit naive too, thinking that there is time and room in this little ol province of ours for ALL user groups to have a peice of the pie that will make them happy.

Chris

This is good but as far as annual allowable harvest we haven't been meeting it in most species and areas across the province.

We don't get a whole lot more people hunting for a whole lot longer - we actually get fewer people hunting a whole lot longer when it's restricted to bow seasons. I think that's really part of the reason bowhunters like those seasons so much .

As seen above happy's a relative term.


As a bow hunter I'm tickled pink to get 9 days at the beginning of sept and 2 weeks for any wt and muley bucks at the end when you get deer pushed down and rutting all at once. There's no place like it in North America.

Rainwater
01-30-2007, 12:24 PM
BCRams, Can't really comment on what the BCWF can do for you with respect to further rifle seasons. As you know the UBBC is a Bowhunting advocacy group so if we can fit those guys in, disabled, youth and old hunters than we will not have a problem. I for one cannot see anywhere where bowhunters are asking to take some rifle seasons away but the same cannot be said for rifle hunters. The UBBC will be presenting the Minister with the Youth hunting package and FINALLY the BCWF will be presented with a special resolution to that effect also from the Okanagan Region, it will be interesting to see where that one goes???? Goatguy, NO the Mule Deer season from Nov. 11-18 is not biologically sound, is that what you want to teach young people, to harvest deer (easily) in the peak of the rut and not in the best of shape, steak wise. We do not support this initiative nor does quite a few seasoned deer hunters. The Nov. 11 to Dec. 10 date for Mule Deer has been requested for a Bow Only season for quite a few years (yes because it's biologically sound) and we will be asking that no changes be made on this until the "abeyance" on bowhunting regulations is lifted. That would only be fair wouldn't it, then we can sit down again and start re-negotiating.

GoatGuy
01-30-2007, 04:43 PM
The UBBC will be presenting the Minister with the Youth hunting package and FINALLY the BCWF will be presented with a special resolution to that effect also from the Okanagan Region, it will be interesting to see where that one goes???? .

Why don't you share that special resolution with us???

Remember to provide justification for the special resolution and back it up with facts relating to recruitment and retention, the future of hunting in BC and last but not least any conservation concerns that you may have. Ad-hoc justification does not fit as a reasonable explaination.




Goatguy, NO the Mule Deer season from Nov. 11-18 is not biologically sound, is that what you want to teach young people, to harvest deer (easily) in the peak of the rut and not in the best of shape, steak wise. We do not support this initiative nor does quite a few seasoned deer hunters. The Nov. 11 to Dec. 10 date for Mule Deer has been requested for a Bow Only season for quite a few years (yes because it's biologically sound) and we will be asking that no changes be made on this until the "abeyance" on bowhunting regulations is lifted. That would only be fair wouldn't it, then we can sit down again and start re-negotiating.

1) Why isn't a 7 day youth season in region biologically sound?

Please use numbers and facts. Feel free to compare it to other regions across the province, look at the number of youth that would be hunting, number of deer that would be harvested, potential hunters recruited, overall impact on region 8. Tell us about conservation worries based on facts, not how many deer you saw walking around one day.

Ideas like 'quite a few' don't count, neither does 'best of shape steak wise' count, especially when you want to harvest the same deer at the same time of the year with a bow. Seems crazy to me!

2) Why would a month longth be more biologically sound than a 7 day youth hunt?

Please use numbers and facts - please refrain from witch hunts and conjecture. Willy and JT have atleast demonstrated some science or conception of numbers, supported with some sort of logic, please do the same.

Also, please don't forget to include how these seasons would affect the future of hunting. Again, please use numbers and facts.

I'm all ears for reasons and justification for these suggestions BUT BACK IT UP WITH FACTS.

Rainwater
01-30-2007, 05:58 PM
As far as the special resolution to the BCWF you would have to speak to one of your friends on the executive to get the details. It is similar to the Youth Hunting Package in that a Youth can take "a" deer during the whole season using the appropriate weapon for that season. The Youth licence will give the young hunter a tag (for any deer) at a reduced price and will have all season to hunt any deer (not just 9 days). He could shoot a doe in 4 point season or a 3 point in 4 point season. It's a win win. As far as facts and figures in relation to a rifle hunt during the peak of the rut for Youth you will have to let common sense rule the day on that one. Why do you think the GOS was reduced in Region 8 from Nov. 15th to Nov. 10, you sound like a smart guy so figure it out. I would not have any facts and figures on a hunt that has not happened but in our neck of the woods deer were being overharvested during that period of time so in the name of conservation we had the season cut back. Long time, hardened Mule Deer hunters with a bone of conservation in there body will still tell you that the GOS is still too long at Nov. 10th. Instead of asking me for facts and figures on harvest strategies and data on his dreamt up seasons ask the bio (he's got the badge) and see how well you make out.

Kirby
01-30-2007, 06:03 PM
Rainwater here is a great idea, GET THE NUMBERS! Your saying a 7 day youth season is biologically unsound? But your saying a full 3 month is???

You know what Goatguy does sound like a smart guy, you however are starting to sound like a person with one agenda yourself. Get some numbers and back up your ideas

Kirby

Rainwater
01-30-2007, 09:04 PM
Take the "greedy" hats off guys, yes all season for Youth, remember one deer under the Youth Licence. Yes they can shoot a doe in the 4 point season if the bio figures there are enough deer, it can be finetuned by them. They can also purchase other tags at the full price just like you and me.Junior licences actually decreased even after they were offered rifle in the early BOW ONLY season so it is not working. Make it affordable for the parents, get them out, , let them choose if they want to rifle or bowhunt ,help them get a deer,then they are "RECRUITED". Nice Job. If you want more info look up the UBBC website or contact a regional director.

Rainwater
01-30-2007, 09:04 PM
Sorry Kirby, what numbers did you want??

GoatGuy
01-30-2007, 09:18 PM
As far as the special resolution to the BCWF you would have to speak to one of your friends on the executive to get the details. It is similar to the Youth Hunting Package in that a Youth can take "a" deer during the whole season using the appropriate weapon for that season. The Youth licence will give the young hunter a tag (for any deer) at a reduced price and will have all season to hunt any deer (not just 9 days). He could shoot a doe in 4 point season or a 3 point in 4 point season. It's a win win. As far as facts and figures in relation to a rifle hunt during the peak of the rut for Youth you will have to let common sense rule the day on that one. Why do you think the GOS was reduced in Region 8 from Nov. 15th to Nov. 10, you sound like a smart guy so figure it out. I would not have any facts and figures on a hunt that has not happened but in our neck of the woods deer were being overharvested during that period of time so in the name of conservation we had the season cut back. Long time, hardened Mule Deer hunters with a bone of conservation in there body will still tell you that the GOS is still too long at Nov. 10th. Instead of asking me for facts and figures on harvest strategies and data on his dreamt up seasons ask the bio (he's got the badge) and see how well you make out.


Just the facts please.

Fearmongering and witch hunts don't count.

Do share the resolution; I've already got to hear it but it'd be nice if you could share it with everyone and educate them on it and its justification. I'm sure they'd all want to hear it - I'd also like to hear the justification.

I've already talked to the bio about it, just want you to share your ideas with us.

You've talked about conservation but let's hear the numbers and the justification - all we're getting is heresay and uninformed opinions.

This isn't something that can be discussed if you're going to base your discussion on so called 'hardened' Mule Deer hunters and 'steak shape wise.' Sorry man, that stuff just doesn't fly when it come to informing people or making decisions.

GoatGuy
01-30-2007, 09:27 PM
Take the "greedy" hats off guys, yes all season for Youth, remember one deer under the Youth Licence. Yes they can shoot a doe in the 4 point season if the bio figures there are enough deer, it can be finetuned by them. They can also purchase other tags at the full price just like you and me.Junior licences actually decreased even after they were offered rifle in the early BOW ONLY season so it is not working. Make it affordable for the parents, get them out, , let them choose if they want to rifle or bowhunt ,help them get a deer,then they are "RECRUITED". Nice Job. If you want more info look up the UBBC website or contact a regional director.

Tried to, any deer nov 11-18 to recruit. That way it isn't ruining anyone's bowhunts, no bowhunters are gonna get shot, scoped, maimed but obviously it won't work. Don't know why, but it won't.

Oh and now junior season isn't working, do you have any facts to back that up? Tell me about them??? Make sure you're on the ball with this too.

Geez for 6 months on this board all I've heard is no no no, it's not working it's unsafe, it's unfair to youth bowhunters, oh and now it's a conservation concern!

And after 6 months, there has yet to be any statistics or facts quoted or cited. Nothing related to recruitment and retention tools, how to recruit, who we need to recruit, the most successfull way to recruit. All I've really heard is no to youth during that time. No to a suggestion for a hunt in Aug, in Sept, Oct, Nov, whenever it doesn't matter.

It gets tiresome; I suppose everybody has their motivation and reason for being.

Kirby
01-30-2007, 09:53 PM
Sorry Kirby, what numbers did you want??

The numbers that your using to base your request for extended archery seasons over youth seasons. Lets see some harvest numbers, don't simply say "it won't work" or "its not biologically responsible" give some numbers. Like Goat guy said I've yet to see some numbers provided to back up what is being asked.

Get some numbers to back up your ideas, I know its an amazing idea to actually base an argument on fact, but I highly suggest you try it.:)


let them choose if they want to rifle or bowhunt
HEY WAIT A MINUTE????? ISN'T THAT WHAT A YOUTH SEASON DOES???? Nobody forces them to hunt with a rifle in the youth season it just makes it so that they are the CENTER of the hunt.

I would love to hear what resolution is that the UBBC is putting forward.

Kirby

jessbennett
01-30-2007, 10:32 PM
Seen one to many dads"backing up" their kids in the youth only seasons for my liking......:mad: . how many times is this going to turn into a pi$$ing match every time it gets talked about????hell why dont we do it this way, divide it up evenly. have a BOW only season. then have a RIFLE only season, and have a YOUTH only season???but as far as im concerned its about time that something like the ubbc has come along. its been long overdue since the "bowhunters" of b.c. has a responsible voice. hats off to you guys:wink:

Rainwater
01-30-2007, 10:32 PM
I ALREADY explained the Youth Season on this post and other posts to the point where I will not explain to anyone on this site again. Read the prior posts please, that is IT in a nutshell. I am only a member of the UBBC and the BCWF so if you require further information if you are interested contact them please. Kirby, I tell you what if you can get harvest data on deer from your bios, (including Native Harvest) I will buy you a beer for sure. PS The Youth Hunting Package will work if you give it a try. Talkin about recruitment here now. You guys talk amongst yourselves now cause your tired of hearin from me.

Kirby
01-30-2007, 10:44 PM
Seen one to many dads"backing up" their kids in the youth only seasons for my liking......:mad: .
WHOLE new bag there. Why stop a season because some guys don't follow the rules? Report them, educate them but don't punish ethical hunters who follow the rules for a few, otherwise we are on a real slippery slope8-)


but as far as im concerned its about time that something like the ubbc has come along. its been long overdue since the "bowhunters" of b.c. has a responsible voice. hats off to you guys:wink:

No issue with bowhunters having a voice, however when guys, regardless of their hunting style wish to incease their seasons at the cost of the key demographic that we need to recruit I have a real issue with it.

Kirby

jessbennett
01-30-2007, 10:58 PM
kirby, so you think that because bowhunters in b.c. are a minority, we should get the proverbial shitty end of the stick:) ????also kirby what/who is the "key demographic" that you speak of???:confused:

Kirby
01-30-2007, 11:21 PM
kirby, so you think that because bowhunters in b.c. are a minority, we should get the proverbial shitty end of the stick:) ????also kirby what/who is the "key demographic" that you speak of???:confused:

I think when catering to a large group you have to understand them, and provide accordingly. I somehow don't see a 9 day deer season at the start of the season and then 3 month general season as the "shitty end of the stick" I see it as a great season and one I am damn happy to have. Remeber the animals and wilderness of BC belong to all British Columbians, not just hunters, and the population of huntable animals belong to all hunters.

The key demographic is the youth. Fail to get the youth and hunting is nothing but a memory.

Kirby

willyqbc
01-30-2007, 11:28 PM
I'm still baffled as to why the thought process seems to be that it is impossible to recruit one demographic without completely screwing over another. Lets look at a hypothetical example

you have 100 hunters recruited last year

- 70 of them were gun hunters and were recruited through traditional means
- 10 were youth recruited through various youth season initiatives
- 10 were bowhunters recruited by liking what archery has to offer, including the perks of some "special" seasons
- 10 were seniors/disabled or whatever other group you can comeup with, who were also recruited because of "special" perks for them

Now why in the world, even though 70% of the recruitment was in the traditional "rifle" demographic, would we not do all we could to get that other 30%???. Just because it's the rifle hunters are the majority does not mean it is the only interest to be considered.....when your on a leaky boat, every available person bailing out the water is what you want to see if you want to stay afloat!! :smile: I've said it before and i'll say it again....there's room enough, time enough, and animals enough for everyones interest to be taken care of.

Now for those of you who think the big bad selfish bowhunters are out to screw the youth of the province.....I will post a copy of our youth proposal ONCE AGAIN!!. You will note that this is NOT a "youth bowhunter" proposal but a blanket policy we believe will give youth the most chance for satisfying successful seasons that will keep them coming back.

Chris


Youth Hunting Proposal
OBJECTIVE
To motivate youth toward the sport of hunting. A "Youth Hunting Package" should be considered for implementation at the Regional level subject to management policies and species availability within a given Region.

CURRENT STATUS
Within specified management units, a youth hunter under the age of 19 may hunt White-tailed deer (bucks only) with a rifle during the early archery only season. The youth may hunt off their own white-tailed deer species tag if they have successfully completed the BCWF CORE program. The youth 10-14 may hunt off the species tag of an accompanying adult if they have not completed the CORE program.

PROPOSAL
Who
A youth hunter who is 10 to 18 years of age may purchase a "Youth Hunting Package".
Entitlement
The "Youth Hunting Package" would entitle the youth hunter to harvest any deer in a designated deer season with the appropriate weapon and to hunt upland game birds in accordance with Regional bag limits and Regulations. Normal weapon restrictions would apply.
CORE
A youth hunter who is 10 to 14 years of age and possesses a Junior Hunting License ($7) and has not completed the BCWF CORE program, will only be entitled to the deer tag included in the "Youth Hunting Package" and to hunt upland game birds. To hunt any other big game species he/she will have to hunt on the species tag of the accompanying adult.


A youth hunter who has completed the BCWF CORE program and possesses a regular BC Hunting License will be entitled to the enhanced deer opportunity included in the "Youth Hunting Package". A youth hunter taking advantage of the opportunity to hunt with the "Youth Hunting Package" must possess the package.

For a youth that possesses a CORE certification and hunting license, additional big game species tags would be acquired in status quo fashion. This would include application for Limited Entry Permits. All hunting will be subject to Regional and Provincial bag limits and regulations.

COST
The cost of this package should be a motivating factor promoting youth hunting opportunity. A figure between $10 and $25.

SUMMARY
The proposal offers an enhanced youth opportunity over those currently in practice in some management units. The proposal promotes youth involvement over a greater period of time and with greater expectations of success, thus entrenching a stronger desire in our youth to recognize the benefits of hunting.

In Regions where deer populations can not withstand an antlerless season the package may be adjusted by the Regional Managers to reflect the conditions in that area. Observations in the East Kootenay and other regions suggest that White-tailed deer populations can withstand a moderate antlerless harvest.

jessbennett
01-30-2007, 11:49 PM
kirby, so what your trying to say is focus entirely on the youth and not worry about anyone else?????? sorry if im misunderstanding you or sounding like a"selfish bowhunter", but that is NOT right. very true that the youth is a very important factor in the survival of hunting, but it is NOT the only factor.

Hunter4life
01-31-2007, 11:19 AM
I will start off by saying that I dont know the fine details of trying to recruit hunters or managing animal populations but this is my opinion on trying to get more youth and maybe more bowhunters in bc. As of now the deer season begins on september 1st for most places for bow and youth seasons. I know there are exceptions like the QCI etc. My problem is that school also starts in the beginning of sept, usually around the 5th. There are lots of teens that try to get averages of 90% in the highschool courses so missing a week of school or maybe a couple days can hinder some people in trying to achieve high honors. I know lots of parents are against having their youth miss school if they aren't sick. I think that bow only and youth seasons for deer should start on august 15th like some other species and go till sept 9. That allows much more time for youth to get out while they are still on summer holidays and they still can start the school year strong and when the teachers ask what the highlight of summer was they can say they shot a deer. According to willyq this would appeal to 20% of potential hunters. I guess I could note that this is coming from a youth bowhunter, so maybe im just being selfish:roll:

h4l

willyqbc
01-31-2007, 12:57 PM
According to willyq this would appeal to 20% of potential hunters

The numbers in my post were purely hypothetical, used only to illustrate a point.

The fact of the matter is the ministry really has no idea as to the number of bowhunters in the feild. the check box on the liscences is completely voluntary and as such the numbers they have are probably much lower than reality....heck I had to point it out to my vendor when he didn't ask me or my wife if we were going to hunt with a bow. This will still not show us how many people are using multiple weapons but it will be a start.

One more thing that has been bothering me about this thread while I am thinking about it.....for all of you voicing objections to our lobbying for new archery only seasons, then take full advantage of the existing archery seasons.....those seasons were new at some point and were lobbied for by some group (not ours specifically). As an example...the generous kootenay early archery season was lobbied for by several members of the UBBC including a few of the founders....it was before the UBBC was founded but they were still the guys in there pushing for it among others. So if you have posted up in this thread stating opposition to new archery opportunities and then go out and take advantage of the archery opportunities out there.....well that's simply hypocritical. Seems like the attitude is that if you are predominantly a rifle hunter who only picks up a bow because someone else is getting something your not...thats OK. But if you are predominantly a bowhunter who picks up a rifle now and again to fill the freezer if need be you are some sort of lowlife "opportunist". Again hypocritical thinking at its finest.

Theres my rant:lol:
Chris

Gateholio
01-31-2007, 03:24 PM
Youth Hunting Proposal
OBJECTIVE
To motivate youth toward the sport of hunting. A "Youth Hunting Package" should be considered for implementation at the Regional level subject to management policies and species availability within a given Region.

CURRENT STATUS
Within specified management units, a youth hunter under the age of 19 may hunt White-tailed deer (bucks only) with a rifle during the early archery only season. The youth may hunt off their own white-tailed deer species tag if they have successfully completed the BCWF CORE program. The youth 10-14 may hunt off the species tag of an accompanying adult if they have not completed the CORE program.

PROPOSAL
Who
A youth hunter who is 10 to 18 years of age may purchase a "Youth Hunting Package".
Entitlement
The "Youth Hunting Package" would entitle the youth hunter to harvest any deer in a designated deer season with the appropriate weapon and to hunt upland game birds in accordance with Regional bag limits and Regulations. Normal weapon restrictions would apply.
CORE
A youth hunter who is 10 to 14 years of age and possesses a Junior Hunting License ($7) and has not completed the BCWF CORE program, will only be entitled to the deer tag included in the "Youth Hunting Package" and to hunt upland game birds. To hunt any other big game species he/she will have to hunt on the species tag of the accompanying adult.


A youth hunter who has completed the BCWF CORE program and possesses a regular BC Hunting License will be entitled to the enhanced deer opportunity included in the "Youth Hunting Package". A youth hunter taking advantage of the opportunity to hunt with the "Youth Hunting Package" must possess the package.

For a youth that possesses a CORE certification and hunting license, additional big game species tags would be acquired in status quo fashion. This would include application for Limited Entry Permits. All hunting will be subject to Regional and Provincial bag limits and regulations.

COST
The cost of this package should be a motivating factor promoting youth hunting opportunity. A figure between $10 and $25.

SUMMARY
The proposal offers an enhanced youth opportunity over those currently in practice in some management units. The proposal promotes youth involvement over a greater period of time and with greater expectations of success, thus entrenching a stronger desire in our youth to recognize the benefits of hunting.

In Regions where deer populations can not withstand an antlerless season the package may be adjusted by the Regional Managers to reflect the conditions in that area. Observations in the East Kootenay and other regions suggest that White-tailed deer populations can withstand a moderate antlerless harvest.






Won't all the dads be out "backing up" thier kids? That was a big issue brougth up by bowhunters when discussing the early youht/bow season..I guess this is no longer a concern of bowhunters?:lol: 8-)

willyqbc
01-31-2007, 04:45 PM
Won't all the dads be out "backing up" thier kids? That was a big issue brougth up by bowhunters when discussing the early youht/bow season..I guess this is no longer a concern of bowhunters?

I won't presume to speak for anyone but myself, but Dads "backing up" their kids does not really concern me.....anymore than anyone else who poaches does anyway. The fact is that any system is gonna have those who abuse it. Should we shut down rifle season's cause guys are out their poaching with their rifles....obviously not and this is no different in my opinion

Chris

Gateholio
01-31-2007, 05:07 PM
Chris, i was just making a joke. It was a BIG concern brougth up by bowhunters that shall remain nameless 8-) at one point last year, when discussing the new youth/bow season.

I dont think it had any merit then or now.

:lol: :lol:

willyqbc
01-31-2007, 05:30 PM
DOH!! (slaps forehead)...sorry gate....missed the smiley's!!:lol:

Of course any chance to throw my opinion out there works for me too!!8-)

Chris

Kirby
01-31-2007, 06:42 PM
kirby, so what your trying to say is focus entirely on the youth and not worry about anyone else?????? sorry if im misunderstanding you or sounding like a"selfish bowhunter", but that is NOT right. very true that the youth is a very important factor in the survival of hunting, but it is NOT the only factor.

I am not supporting that ONLY the youths be given advantages. I do support archery only seasons, and do support other special interest groups. However when certain people constantly complain about gun toting youth behind every bush during their "bow only" seasons then say that they don't really work I see a conflicting statement.

I would personally rather see more drive to recruit youth than increase archery seasons. Ideas such as where youth are on a special license and afforded other breaks are great, however like Hunter4life pointed out school can get in the way of a youths hunt, this is where early season youth hunts come into play.

Kirby

Coyote
01-31-2007, 09:26 PM
How about a drive to increase youth hunters and increase bowhunting opportunity...?

The Hermit
01-31-2007, 11:53 PM
I think the idea of the extended youth season is great... Aug 15 to Sept 10 would work too.

I also think it would be absolutley fantastic if their fathers/mothers would get out there with them and share the outdoors together!

I also think encouraging new hunters, regardless of their age, is a good thing. Maybe we could have a regulation allowing new hunters for their first two seasons access for the early season too!

I doubt any of these options or all of them combined would have much of an impact on bow hunters. Open the door and let them in!!