Carbon vs. Aluminum - newbie needs advice

[Franko Manini]

Okay Guys, I'm sure this is not a new topic, but since I am a "born again" archer I just gotta know.

When I retired from archery it was because my university schooling was getting too busy. At this time carbon shafts were just coming on line for serious target shooters. I shot XX78 aluminums, and I know nothing about the carbon shafts, and less about the aluminum/carbon shafts. I want to hunt and shoot the occassional 3D match, and build my own arrows.

Which shafts are best suited to these types of shooting? Carbon or aluminum? I will be shooting a 50-60lb Reflex (soon to arrive via UPS!) and I have a 27.5" draw if that matters. Let off will be 65%.

[magicarrowman]

CARBONS!!!!! (personal opinion) Try Gold Tips.

[swamper]

I'm sure that someone will shoot me down for saying this, but when it comes to carbon vs. aluminum, there really is no comparison. As far as I'm concerned the only choice is carbon. At one point carbons were far more costly than aluminum, but this is no longer the case. Carbons last longer, they are either straight and shootable, or broken and no longer useable. Being lighter in weight, they are much faster and therefore have a flatter trajectyory. The other advantage that I found having 3 shooters in the family, all of different draw lengths, is that if you injure a carbon arrow it can be cut down and reused. For myself I was cutting down for my son, and then for my daughter if he buggered one up. Once an aluminum arrow is bent it is virtually impossible to get it back to true. The only people that I know of that shoot aluminum anymore are the indoor FITA shooters that are not really concerned with speed.

Just my humble opinion.

[Kirby]

Carbons. Stonger, cheaper. I absolutly say Carbons.

Kirby

[QnsCowboy]

I couldn't agree more...1000% Carbons, I used to shoot XX78's as well, and would never consider going back...I use Gold Tips now, and love them....just my two cents worth...:)

Craig

[FullDraw]

You can't go wrong with carbons I shot them out of a traditional bow. They are just less trouble in my books and you can add weight to them to make the heavier if needed.

FullDraw

[Bow Walker]

Well Franko, the consensus seems to indicate Carbons. 'Nuff said!

[The Hermit]

Hummmm. A decenting position... John at Island outfitters said newbies should shoot aluminum because they are truer and more easily tuned. He also said that the obsession with speed is what drives people to carbon but that a slightly heavier AL arrow flying 60 fps slower will still cut through any game and do the job. Also said they can be found with a little metal detector if they slip under ground where as carbons are nearly impossible. Oh and cheaper too.

He shoots carbon in competitions and AL for hunting. I hope I haven't miss quoted the guy...

[willyqbc]

John at Island outfitters said newbies should shoot aluminum because they are truer and more easily tuned.

While that is true, they are also nowhere near as tough as the carbons. For a newbie who will most likely be missing the target more often than a seasoned shooter the cost savings of the aluminums will likely be lost when he/she needs to go buy more because their original dozen is all bent outta shape. Carbons are not difficult to tune and a new shooter is not going to notice the difference between a .001 X7 and a .006 gold tip expedition....heck not many archers anywhere are good enough to tell the difference. I think where the aluminums really shine is in the lower poundage ultra accurate FITA type set-ups....if you are capable of shooting over 290 inner 10 for an 18M FITA round....you may well be able to tell the difference between individual arrows....99% of people however will not.
So for a newbie, go with the rugged durability of the carbons in my opinion.

Chris

[Blacktail]

I have been shooting arrows for too many years that I care to acknowledge.
Aluminums are an excellent choice for new shooters as they are cheaper than carbons.Keep in mind however that as a new shooter you might want to limit your distances until you can be sure of hitting the target however big it may be before stepping back to a longer yardage.
I do agree that as a new shooter you will be missing the target a number of times and the aluminum factor will be a detriminent to your pocket book after a while as they do not straighten all that well.Carbons will eventually be better in that regard as they are either good to shoot or broken.

It totally depends on your choice and how deep your pocket is, much the same as golfing where you can use the best balls that money can buy and lose a dozen the first time out on the course.

Got questions and wanna learn the basics??
I am a cerified archery coach call me and I can give you some pointers

[Franko Manini]

Perhaps "newbie" wasn't exactly a perfect description of myself. I shot FITA for 10 or so years. I was looking back through my old recods, and it seems that my high score was a 262 at a JOP indoor shoot in Chilliwack (1986) shooting Olympic Recurve.

What I remember about aluminums is having to send 3 or 4 arrows home with the coach (Cliff Allen) every week to get straightened. I think if I were to shoot aluminums now, I'd invest in a good arrow straigtener too.

From what I know about physics, increasing the speed of a projectile actually pays higher dividends since the force of the projectile increases as the square of the speed (P = MV^2). It's just a matter of how much speed you gain by reducing the mass of the arrow, versus, how much mementum you gain by increasing the mass of the arrow. It would have to be determined for every individual setup.

It looks like I'll shoot carbons. I know I will have no trouble hitting the target after a couple of practice sessions to get into the groove again.

Where are most folks buying arrow componenets these days? Is there a good online source or a local (Victoria) source?

[Franko Manini]

Hummmm. A decenting position... John at Island outfitters said newbies should shoot aluminum because they are truer and more easily tuned. He also said that the obsession with speed is what drives people to carbon but that a slightly heavier AL arrow flying 60 fps slower will still cut through any game and do the job. Also said they can be found with a little metal detector if they slip under ground where as carbons are nearly impossible. Oh and cheaper too.

He shoots carbon in competitions and AL for hunting. I hope I haven't miss quoted the guy...

The metal detector thing is a bit bogus... metal detectors locate the arrow point which is ferrous metal. They don't detect the aluminum (except for very expensive units and even they are 100X more sensitive to ferrous metals). Since both carbon and aluminum arrows use steel points, there should be no difference in finding them with a detector.

I agree that dollar for dollar aluminum arrows are less costly than carbon arrows of the same tolerance... until they get bent.

[FullDraw]

Cliff Allen I was just talking about that guy the other day but could not remember his name for the life of me. I'm a old JOP shooter myself.

FullDraw

[Franko Manini]

Got questions and wanna learn the basics??
I am a cerified archery coach call me and I can give you some pointers

As I mentioned, I have shot beofre so I'm not entirely new. I am new to bowhunting however. Nonetheless, I would be really interested in taking you up on your offer. I am sure I still have a lot to learn!

[J_T]

While I still shoot woods, I think I'm going to make a change for hunting to carbons. Why? Accuracy. I shot carbons a little at target this year and can't believe the consistency. Much better than any aluminums I ever shot.

I've also seen first hand, guys who keep a play arrow in their quiver and that carbon arrow, just keeps coming up for more fun.

Carbons are far more durable than aluminums, so if you miss much, go carbon.

As Full Draw says, you can weight them down so they carry more impact for hunting.

JT

[Blacktail]

I am new to bowhunting however. Nonetheless, I would be really interested in taking you up on your offer. I am sure I still have a lot to learn!

Let me know and we can set something up

[Franko Manini]

Let me know and we can set something up

Sounds great. My bow should be here in the first week of January, and then I'll need to build some arrows. Of course, I could always pull out the old Olympic recurve for some fun!

[The Hermit]

Count me in on the fun boys!!

[The Hermit]

BowWalker might like to join us too. Maybe we could meet up at the Vic Fish and Game Club one day in the early new year.

[Blacktail]

sounds good
I have a (newer to me) bow to set up

[Bow Walker]

BowWalker might like to join us too. Maybe we could meet up at the Vic Fish and Game Club one day in the early new year.
Count me in! Either at the Vic Bowmen Club or the top of the 'Hat. Post it here and look out!

[Bow Walker]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_99.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_101.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA) We will be like that Tom Horton's commercial, where the four adult guys meet in their snow fort to compare Christmas presents.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)

[Franko Manini]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_99.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_101.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA) We will be like that Tom Horton's commercial, where the four adult guys meet in their snow fort to compare Christmas presents.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)






Too true! I will need to spend some time tuning my bow once I get the arrows made. Hope I can get some traction on that early in the new year!

[oldtimer]

I think Swamper made the best point for going to carbon , a damaged carbon arrow can be cut down for the next generation of shooters. Go to any 3D shoot and see the "arrow bucket " Most of the aluminum go to the garbage, most of the carbon go to people with young shooters. Mike

[The Hermit]

On the AL vs Carbon arrow debate, John also raised the argument in favor of AL arrows for hunting in that their penetration is MUCH better than carbon due to the weight of the arrows and in any kind of wind the carbon arrows will be deflected in the tail causing the arrow to twist toward the perpendicular on impact thereby reducing cutting energy.

Ordered my bow today!

[FullDraw]

I don't buy that story, you can pack a carbon arrow full of rope to weigh it down and then your problem is solved.

Face it carbons are the way to go.

FullDraw

[Bow Walker]

If arrow weight is an issue - just buy heavier carbons, like the Maxima, or some of Easton's offerings, even GT has a carbon/aluminum shaft that is in the 11 grains per inch range. Talk about penetration!

Get a few arrows to shoot with, practice with them and we'll talk.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_33_10.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)

[oldtimer]

I don't buy into the better penetration story either. Penetration has to do with Kinetic energy, A light arrow travelling fast has the same punch as a heavier arrow travelling slower. Mike

[greybark]

:) Hey Oldtimer , I agree with you on that two arrow theory (I believe that what the math says) . Although a bear that I lost long ago was with some old ACC`c (light) . I am comfortable and my Chek-Mate Recurve bow in quiet around 550 gr .
:lol: See you at Rendell and the Dinner next year ??????
:) Season`s greetings to You , Willie and families

[dougan]

If i bought carbons instead of aluminums when i started shooting i could have bouught my house without a mortgage.

[The Hermit]

Okay heck with it... I'll get six of each to start with and see for myself! LOL

[Franko Manini]

On the AL vs Carbon arrow debate, John also raised the argument in favor of AL arrows for hunting in that their penetration is MUCH better than carbon due to the weight of the arrows and in any kind of wind the carbon arrows will be deflected in the tail causing the arrow to twist toward the perpendicular on impact thereby reducing cutting energy.

Ordered my bow today!

Well that's not the whole story either. A faster arrow makes it from the bow to the target in less time, therefore is acted upon for less time by the wind. The net effect is that wind has more effect on slower arrows (i.e heavier/aluminum). Once again, it's a "how much" scenario.

In the realm of ridiculous over exageration, if your bow shot carbons twice as fast as aluminums, then the wind would be half the factor on the carbons. Now, one would need to "do some serious math" to compare the inertial force (Newton's First Law - objects in motion tend to stay in motion...) against the aerodynamic force for different wind speeds and directions.

So many variables... oh screw it. I'm shooting carbons.

[The Hermit]

Well that's not the whole story either. A faster arrow makes it from the bow to the target in less time, therefore is acted upon for less time by the wind. The net effect is that wind has more effect on slower arrows (i.e heavier/aluminum). Once again, it's a "how much" scenario.

In the realm of ridiculous over exageration, if your bow shot carbons twice as fast as aluminums, then the wind would be half the factor on the carbons. Now, one would need to "do some serious math" to compare the inertial force (Newton's First Law - objects in motion tend to stay in motion...) against the aerodynamic force for different wind speeds and directions.

So many variables... oh screw it. I'm shooting carbons.


Nope... the heavier arrow will deflect less... objects in motion tend to stay in motion. Try flinging a two ounce speer and a two pound speer with the same force. Which one would go further? Which one would you rather be hit with? Theory smheery, I am going to try both and see for myself.

[FullDraw]

Might as well try some footed P.O.C's while your at it.


FullDraw

[The Hermit]

I'm new to this... what is a footed P.O.C. ?

[Franko Manini]

Nope... the heavier arrow will deflect less... objects in motion tend to stay in motion. Try flinging a two ounce speer and a two pound speer with the same force. Which one would go further? Which one would you rather be hit with? Theory smheery, I am going to try both and see for myself.

Your example doesn't work. I'd rather get hit with the 2 pound spear... at a hundred yards since it would never get to me.

As I mentioned earlier, relative to Newton's First Law, one would have to determine the amount of ineria in the object. This is relative to the velocity and mass fo the object. Then, you would have to calculate the aerodynamic force applied by the wind, and the duration of this force acting upon the arrow. As I said, it's not a simple problem, you have to actually do the math.

Of course, a soft-science guy might just sit back and ask the arrow if it loved it's mommy. :lol:

[FullDraw]

Hermit P.O.C. means Port Orford Cedar it's just a type of cedar arrow shaft and footed means that you add a hard wood tip to your arrow shaft for more weight and strength.
It's geared more towards stick bow's

FullDraw

[The Hermit]

Hermit P.O.C. means Port Orford Cedar it's just a type of cedar arrow shaft and footed means that you add a hard wood tip to your arrow shaft for more weight and strength.
It's geared more towards stick bow's

FullDraw

So you were being a smart ass eh? LOL Thats okay game face is on! Shield is up but I don't need to worry about Franko cause his 2" and 2 ounce spear would just bounce off! :twisted:

[The Hermit]

Your example doesn't work. I'd rather get hit with the 2 pound spear... at a hundred yards since it would never get to me.

As I mentioned earlier, relative to Newton's First Law, one would have to determine the amount of ineria in the object. This is relative to the velocity and mass fo the object. Then, you would have to calculate the aerodynamic force applied by the wind, and the duration of this force acting upon the arrow. As I said, it's not a simple problem, you have to actually do the math.

Of course, a soft-science guy might just sit back and ask the arrow if it loved it's mommy. :lol:

Oh you know I was just taking the theory to its logical conclusion... fact is the heavier speer would go further and truer than the lighter one. What we are talking about in reality is 50 - 70lb bows flinging arrows out to say forty or fifty yards. I don't need theory to tell me that the heavier arrow is going to get deeper when we are only talking 10 - 20 fps differences in speed. And furthermore, ask your last girlfriend if your fast little stick does the same job as my heavier slower shaft!! :razz:

However in keeping with my scientfic curiosity, I am going to try it at the range in calm and windy conditions and see if ol' John at Island outfitters is right or not. He says the wind deflection on carbon arrows is significantly greater (by like 20 degrees at the tail) than an AL arrow and they therfore will not penetrate as deeply. He claims that the fastest bows flinging the lightest carbon arrows in real world conditions are only getting 8 - 10" penetrateion on big game. Whereas his AL hunting arrows pass entirely through the animal.

[Bow Walker]

He claims that the fastest bows flinging the lightest carbon arrows in real world conditions are only getting 8 - 10" penetrateion on big game. Whereas his AL hunting arrows pass entirely through the animal.
You guys are like a pair of 5-year olds!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_130.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_114.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA) (but it does make for interesting reading.)

Bill - next time you're in talking to John, ask him about the newer, heavier, shafts like Easton's Full Metal Jacket. See what he has to say about those, since they are essentially an aluminium shaft with a carbon core. A large percentage of the "hunters" on the TV hunting shows seem to prefer them over either carbon or aluminium.

Heavy, slim lined, fast, and they'll penetrate the tree and the ground, after passing through the animal - with a short yardage shot that is. And by short yardage I mean something less than 50 yards.

Quote:
He claims that the fastest bows flinging the lightest carbon arrows in real world conditions are only getting 8 - 10" penetrateion on big game. Whereas his AL hunting arrows pass entirely through the animal.
Let's be realistic here. A 55lb - 70lb hunting compound bow's effective killing range is not more than 70 yards - ethically speaking of course. Actually the vast majority of hunters will not shoot at an animal that is over 40 - 45 yards away.

At that range, and given the speed of the arrow, the penetration of a hunting shaft tipped with a proper (read razor sharp) broadhead will be a "pass-through" in almost all cases. The one proviso would be - if the arrow hits bone on the way in or on the way out. then you get into which
bone the arrow hits, ie. rib, shoulder blade, leg, or (hope not) spine.

This is supposing a broadside shot, I won't get into quartering shots or Texas heart shots, since we want to compare arrow penetration here, not shooting technique.

My point is that your spirited "debate" is moot. You can continue the verbal sparring over the carcass of your latest kill.

Quote:
He claims that the fastest bows flinging the lightest carbon arrows in real world conditions are only getting 8 - 10" penetrateion on big game. Whereas his AL hunting arrows pass entirely through the animal.
FURTHER MORE!!
Any idiot (m or f) that goes hunting with the setup described in John's above quote is...... Well, they "should oughta know better" in the first place! Who, in their right mind(s), would hunt with something as described above?!? No one that I know (or want to know).

Whew! Now that I've vented and ranted and gotten rid of my verbal diarrhea, I've got to go have a lie-down. We can continue this at the range.

And I would very much like to see the both of you at the Jan. 14th 3D shoot in Cowichan. Mark your respective calendars. We'll talk about it at the range.

[sealevel]

I did my own testing just with arrows i had on hand this is what i had

gt-5575s
2117 gamegetters
400 epics
bemans blackmax 400

i have not got a good scale so i didn`t weigh them but all had 100 grn magnuss stingers .
they were shot from a hoyt razertec 70 lb 27in draw arrows are 28in

the epics and gts were about the same the 2117 were a little better but the black max were by far the best pity they are dropping that shaft this year.

[Franko Manini]

Just to be clear,

The Hermit and I have known each other for years and we both enjoy flinging the occassional insult and locking horns during debate. I assure you this is all in good fun.

I'd love to come out to the shoot on the 14th. Even if it's just to watch. I probably won't have arrows for the new rig by then.

[Bigbear]

Carbons By far. As for weight Try Goldtip Tradtional Carbon's The 7595 ar 12 gr per in. or the 5575's are 10.3 gr per . That is just about the same as Alu weight.

[The Hermit]

Just to be clear,

The Hermit and I have known each other for years and we both enjoy flinging the occassional insult and locking horns during debate. I assure you this is all in good fun.

I'd love to come out to the shoot on the 14th. Even if it's just to watch. I probably won't have arrows for the new rig by then.


Nah the fun went out of it when his mother called and asked me to ease up on him!! :twisted:

[FullDraw]

So you were being a smart ass eh? LOL Thats okay game face is on! Shield is up but I don't need to worry about Franko cause his 2" and 2 ounce spear would just bounce off! :twisted:

No smart ass here, he he:lol: I would say the best advice is to try a few diffrent arrows and see what fly's best out of your bow. I always try diffrent arrows that my local club members own to see how they fly out of my bow, it's cheaper then buying new arrows to try all the time.
Also I watched my hunting partner on this late season bow hunt, rock a white tail at 23 yrds with a carbon arrow packed with rope out of a compound. He had a complete pass through and that deer dropped at a little over a 100 yrds and never got up. So carbons do work, and in my eye's need less tuning effort.

FullDraw

[Bow Walker]

Just to be clear,

The Hermit and I have known each other for years and we both enjoy flinging the occassional insult and locking horns during debate. I assure you this is all in good fun.

I'd love to come out to the shoot on the 14th. Even if it's just to watch. I probably won't have arrows for the new rig by then.
My brother and I are the same way.....

I got him into archery a couple of years ago and now "Mr. Floaty" is beating me at most of the 3D shoots we go to.:mad:

Spirited debate is fun - until you run out of original insults to answer back with. Although.........you can always use "oh yeah? same to you!"