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wounded
04-11-2004, 11:15 AM
Is there anyone out there planting there own food plot.It does not have to be big it just has to produce .we are playing around the creeks here and planting every 100 yards or so.10x20 plots any other ideas out there.Whitetail only hopefully .Its based on clover's and fern seeds and native grasses. Trying something new thats all . :) :)

BCHunter
04-11-2004, 12:10 PM
isn't that baiting? :roll:

wounded
04-11-2004, 12:25 PM
No it is not.Actually there is no real law out there that says you can not feed deer and such.Only if it is a carnivore you can not bait it.[bear,coyotes cougar]Thats what I understand anyway.There might be a restriction on how much feed you give them but thats it.Hopefully there will be more comments. :D :D

3kills
04-11-2004, 01:07 PM
i m sure food plots is a form of baitin and is illegal here...i know u cant take apples out to attract whitetails cuz its baiting...i would look into it more wouded before u go out and do it :)

BCHunter
04-11-2004, 02:32 PM
sorry to tell you its baiting plain and simple. And its illegal

Rob
04-11-2004, 08:24 PM
food plot? isn't that where you grow a garden & wait for the animals to come??

willyqbc
04-11-2004, 08:27 PM
serious question here, not trying to start anything.....someone please explain to me why a food plot would be illegal but hunting an alfalfa feild is not. I'm searching for the logic that says one type of cultivation is illegal while another is not. Can anyone provide an explanation?

Chris

Steeleco
04-11-2004, 09:56 PM
It's the same logic that states you can't hunt bear over a gut pile or carrion you might find in the field but working a salmon stream or a wild blueberry patch is OK. I'm not sure that cultivating for the purpose attracting animals is OK but I'd phone Victoria 10 times before I bought 1 bag of seed. Hopefully you get 6 answers the same. :lol: :lol:

3kills
04-11-2004, 11:43 PM
if u just walk out in the bush on crown land and grow a food plot then ya i can that being illegal...but if u have private land and u grow alfalpha to harvest and what not and u decide to hunt it it would be legal cuz ur not planting for purpose of attracting animals...i know i guy in quesnal that has told me any time i wanna stop by his property to go ahead...its just huntin on farm land...i know now that i think of it is definatly a grey area...i would have to agree with steeleco though and call victoria before u run out and buy seeds...

Gateholio
04-11-2004, 11:48 PM
I could be wrong, but the only reference I've ever seen to baiting in the BC regs has to do with bears..

I've never seen anything that says you can't have a whole pile of apples or a salt lick or whatever for deer.

Can someone point out to me which regulation says that baiting deer is illegal in BC?

I've never seen anyone bait deer in BC, either, though.

I'm interested in what sort of seed you are using since the deer migrate through here in the summer, and I am about to replant a large area that was dug up last year for a new septic system.

Gateholio
04-11-2004, 11:57 PM
#45 in the "It is unlawful" sewction states:

to hunt black bear or grizzly bear by placing bait or using a dead animal or a part of it as bait.

#57 states: to intentionally feed or attempt to feed dangerous wildlife excpet when lawfully engaged in hunting or trapping where baiting is authorized.

So, I submit that it is not illegal to bait deer, nor is it illegal to bait wolves/coyotes/cougars etc, if you intend to hunt the animals, since it doesn't appear to be illegal to use bait to hunt cougars etc.

3kills
04-11-2004, 11:59 PM
i dont know i still think i would be calling some one and asking them...

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 12:19 AM
i dont know i still think i would be calling some one and asking them...

Why? Just check the Wildlife Act if you are not sure.

The regs synopsis is clearly NOT the law, as it clearly states.

However, I am pretty sure that if baiting deer is illegal, it would be listed rigth beside the bear baiting regulation.

I have no interest in some beaurocrats interpretation of the law, only what the law really states. And if it doesn't clearly state that an activity is ILLEGAL, then it is LEGAL, plain and simple.

There is alot of BS that people spew off and repeat as actual law, but it has no basis in truth. AN example would be knife laws. For years I heard "Don't wear your belt knife in town, it's illegal to have a knife with a 6 inch blade if you are in town."

Well, finally I was curious and actually read what the law says about knives. You can basically walk down Georgia street with a sword as long as you weren't using it in a way that was dangerous to public safety....But that's MY interpretation :D

I think that the baiting issue is the same- I think it is a fable that has been repeated enough that people believe it to be true.

But, hell..prove me wrong. FInd a Wildlife Act law that says it's illegal... :D

3kills
04-12-2004, 08:39 AM
i wasnt neccasarily meanin call up the aholes in victoria...even call up a co and asl..hell i will ask him next time i see him....and with the knife thing ya its legal to pack what ever u want for a knive as long as it nots concealed...that the interpatation i get from it...i am going to look into this whole food plots things cuz i still thing it is illegal...but i will find answers out there some where....oh ya and because its not writting does not mean it is leagal...look at private land...private land doent have to be posted its the hunters repsonibility to find out whats private and whats not...and just cuz its not posted doesnt mean u can go out and hunt ont it...

boxhitch
04-12-2004, 08:52 AM
I agree with the idea that ' enhancing wildlife habitat ' should be encouraged. The only pratfall of it my be that you are conducting an activity on crown, or someones elses, property. A fat deer is a happy deer !

3kills
04-12-2004, 08:55 AM
in the regs this is what it says
bait-means anything,including meat,cervals,cultivated crops,restrained animal or any manufactured product or materail,that may attract wildlifeand includeds plastic,or other imatation foods,but does not include decoys as described under the regulations...

so food plots is baiting and baiting is illegal...

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 09:32 AM
Okay, great. You've found the defintion of 'bait.'

Now where does it say that it is illegal to use bait to hunt deer?

Find that, and you can prove that baiting deer is illegal. If you cannot find it, then it is completely legal, period.

As to yor point about it being illegal even if it is not in writing, you are dead wrong.

If something is not in writing, it is not law.

As for private land, look at the tresspass laws of BC. They may surprise you.

3kills
04-12-2004, 09:34 AM
and besides it being illegal to bait...u cant go on to crown land and grow shit thats illegal too....

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 09:52 AM
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/W/96488_01.htm#section26

Here is where the WIldlife Act of BC is printed.

I have to admit that I didn't thoroughly examine the entire document, but I couldn't find anything in there that said baiting deer for the purposes of hunting is illegal.

But the WIldlife Act is THE law in regards to hunting in BC. If an activity is not listed as unlawful in that document, it is 100% LEGAL! :D

3kills
04-12-2004, 09:57 AM
gate house buddy ur still dead wrong on this...baitin is illegal in bc for everything except wolves...go and grow some food plots on crown land and then cuz its legal as u say take a co out there and show them ur food plot and see what happens....

bone-collector
04-12-2004, 10:07 AM
ok Clarke I would hope you were pulling the chain here and would expect you to know better

when in doubt call it in and ask the apropriate authorities :!:

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 10:10 AM
gate house buddy ur still dead wrong on this...baitin is illegal in bc for everything except wolves...go and grow some food plots on crown land and then cuz its legal as u say take a co out there and show them ur food plot and see what happens....

I may be wrong. I have already said that I do not know if I am correct or not. I've never bothered to bait anything, nor do I know anyone who baits.

But you have mabe a statement. "baiting is illegal in BC for everything except wolves."

I say: Prove it.

If you cannot PROVE IT, it is BS.

SO go ahead, and PROVE IT.

3kills
04-12-2004, 10:16 AM
oh dont u worry i will prove it...
and u can show me where it says if its not written is it legal...

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 10:32 AM
oh dont u worry i will prove it...
and u can show me where it says if its not written is it legal...

Are you saying that there are laws that exist, but are not actually written down?

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 11:54 AM
http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/o/offence/offence89%5F97/89%5F97sch2.htm

Here is another link to help you on your search.

This lists all the ticketable (non criminal code) offences in BC, and thier penalties.

So speeding in your car is here, so is illegal dumping and hunting bears over bait, and hunting migratory birds over bait.

However, there is no offence listed for hunting deer over bait. THis is very curious if baiting deer is an illegal activity.

3kills
04-12-2004, 12:31 PM
well first off..just cuz something is not written does not mean its legal...second of all i m pretty dam sure u cant go out on to crown land and just start planting shit...

3kills
04-12-2004, 12:45 PM
(2) A person commits an offence if the person, with the intent of attracting dangerous wildlife to any land or premises, provides, leaves or places in, on or about the land or premises food, food waste or any other substance that could attract dangerous wildlife to the land or premises.

there ya go right there....it may say with intent to attract dangerous wildlife...and ur not intending to but whose to say what u plant isnt giong to attract bears...like it says at the bottom...that could attract dangerous wildlife to the land.....ur food plots could attract them....

and i will find more info to back myself up.....

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 12:55 PM
well first off..just cuz something is not written does not mean its legal...second of all i m pretty dam sure u cant go out on to crown land and just start planting shit...

If it is not written down as being illegal, it is, by default, legal. You cannot have a bunch of laws that are not written down. How are these laws to be enforced in court?

"Well, Your Honour, it's not written down as being against the law, but I think it's bad, so it is illegal."

You probably cannot just go and plant whatever you wish on Crown Land. I am not arguing that you can. You should make sure of it with proof before you claim it to be law, however.

3kills
04-12-2004, 12:59 PM
read ur pm gatehouse and quit wasting my time... :D

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 01:02 PM
(2) A person commits an offence if the person, with the intent of attracting dangerous wildlife to any land or premises, provides, leaves or places in, on or about the land or premises food, food waste or any other substance that could attract dangerous wildlife to the land or premises.

there ya go right there....it may say with intent to attract dangerous wildlife...and ur not intending to but whose to say what u plant isnt giong to attract bears...like it says at the bottom...that could attract dangerous wildlife to the land.....ur food plots could attract them....

and i will find more info to back myself up.....

This has nothing whatsoever to do with your claim that it is "illegal to bait anything in BC except wolves." This section deals with placing substances with the intention of attracting DANGEROUS game. Deer are not dangerous( to me, anyway. :D )

In law you must prove several things, and intent is one of the most important. Your theory doesn't hold water, I'm afraid.

This whole thread started with several people claiming that it is illegal to bait deer in BC, and I have just asked for proof of that. So far, I have seen nothing that has provided proof.

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 01:08 PM
read ur pm gatehouse and quit wasting my time... :D

Your PM was useless, I'm afraid.

You don't seem to be able to grasp one of the basics of law making.

You cannot have a law that is not written down. Period.

If by order in council, a law is to change, it must be written down.

If you still don't believe me, ask yourself this question: How are the CO's or RCMP goign to enforce a law that does not exist?

3kills
04-12-2004, 01:09 PM
bottom line is baiting is illegal and food plots is classed as baiting if u want to go out and do then go ahead...

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 01:16 PM
bottom line is baiting is illegal and food plots is classed as baiting if u want to go out and do then go ahead...

You keep repeating that baiting deer is illegal but you cannot prove it. I have no intention of baiting anything, and I am simply saying that I can find no reference to any law prohibiting it.

PLEASE...Just point me to any law in BC that says "It is unlawful to hunt deer with bait."

Phone up a CO and ask him. While you are askign him, make sure that he quotes you the section of the Wildlife Act that it appears under.

bone-collector
04-12-2004, 03:11 PM
well baiting is in the wildlife act , were I have no idea Clarke but it is written in there

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 03:33 PM
well baiting is in the wildlife act , were I have no idea Clarke but it is written in there

So I have heard from alot of people, but noone can show me....

I can easily find sections on bear baiting and waterfowl baiting, but as I have said, there appears to be no reference to deer baiting. :roll:

I can prove that there is a law against bear baiting, but nobody seems to be able to prove that a law exists that prohibits deer baiting...

Follow that link and look all over the BC government site. I cannot find anything, maybe you will have better luck! 8)

wounded
04-12-2004, 04:15 PM
Someone call a co allready! But what a grey area hey fella's?All I can find is how its illegal to bait bear and other carnivores.Also how can this be baiting when its grass and clover growing with its own roots and leaves and is ALIVE .Its not a bale of hay or a bin of apples laying there.This seed is totally good stuff too . :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 04:26 PM
Wounded
What are you planting and where can I get it?

I need something that would be able to take a bit of arid conditions...Not desert, but the soil around here drains pretty fast.

bcboy
04-12-2004, 05:11 PM
I was hunting the Duffey a few yrs ago and found a few guys who were putting out salt licks.. they said the same thing.. show me where it says We cannot do this..
I never did find out if it was illegal," ethical " would be nice to put this dog to rest.
I am staying on topic here 8)

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 05:55 PM
I was hunting the Duffey a few yrs ago and found a few guys who were putting out salt licks.. they said the same thing.. show me where it says We cannot do this..
I never did find out if it was illegal," ethical " would be nice to put this dog to rest.
I am staying on topic here 8)

"illegal" and "unethical" are 2 different beasts.

It may be perfectly ethical to hunt deer on Bowen Island with a shotgun, but it is illegal, right? :D

It's also perfectly legal to drive around in your truck, see a bear, jump out, throw the clip into your autoloader 30-06 and empty the gun at the bear with little regard for proper bullet placement, but it is certainly NOT ethical.

I've emailed our local CO, and put the question to him. He may or may not get back to me as he is one busy guy.

However, even if a Peace Officer tells you something is against the law, it may not be, unless he can give you the laws pertaining to the subject.

For instance, I've been told by an RCMP officer that it is illegal to not have a trigger lock on your rifle when it is in your truck. I've been told all sorts of untruths about firearms and hunting laws. Some of the biggest untruths have been told at hunting stores, too!!! :D

bcboy
04-12-2004, 06:04 PM
My point precisely 8) I never give in to doing something i dont feel is ethical.!!!!

wounded
04-12-2004, 10:19 PM
I guess we wait and see who's calls the c o first. :lol: :lol: Don't confuse the poor guy though he has anough to do,wonder how many here are going to plant buckologic ,rackmaster this spring .Help out the critters and they will help you !!!! 8O 8O :D :D

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 10:34 PM
Wounded

I'm still waiting for a reply form the Co, but I'm not holding my breath ...he has alot more important fish to fry.

:D

However, the fact is that I have challenged ANYONE to find a regulation that states that baiting deer in BC is unlawful, and NOONE has stepped up to the challenge.

3 kills keeps insisting that "it's illegal." Bone collector says it's in the Wildlife Act, but he cannot find a reference. :D

A few others have simply stated that it is illegal.

3 kills has even suggested that if I place apples in the woods, it is littering!

This is an important hunting regulations issue...

I am ready, willing, and able to eat crow on this issue. :D

SOMEONE... PLEASE- MAKE ME EAT CROW!!! :D

3kills
04-12-2004, 11:43 PM
hey gatehouse do what u tell me to do okay if u are giong to quote quote correctly...

Gateholio
04-12-2004, 11:56 PM
hey gatehouse do what u tell me to do okay if u are giong to quote quote correctly...

:?:

What are you referring to?

3kills
04-13-2004, 12:00 AM
when u are sayin that i said this or i said that quote me right...

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 12:13 AM
Okay, here is the exact quote:

i dont think the co would fine u for baitin i think he would fine u for discharging a firearm in an urban area...unless of course u live out side of an urban area....and i have told u its illegal i dont know where its says it is but i m sure its illegal...and if its not illegal to bait for deer its still illegal under the forresty act to grow stuff on crown land...and even if u throw apples out to bait them...its littering so its still illegal wich does make baiting for deer illegal....

(the first part, regarding discharging a firearm in an urban area, was a reference made by 3kills to my suggestion that I could shoot a deer on my property. I don't live in an urban area, and it is completely legal for me to shoot or hunt on my property.)

Archive
04-13-2004, 12:18 AM
Back to topic: PLANTING NATURAL WILD SEEDS
Don't read too much into anything past that. Is sowing seeds legit? Is hunting deer with vegetation in close proximity legal? If you said NO (and can prove it) then everyone who ever has and still does harvest deer in their garden in their own yard is a criminal.
I was told 1st hand how a friend was pulled over by RCMP (routine stop) and was told that it was illegal for him to transport his compound bow without 1st removing the string. :?: Believe what you know, not what you think you know.
To topic, if this is wrong then the law also applies to tree planters. They should be fined/arrested as well as the ppl in the reseeding programs for baiting animals by your definition.

Anyone who makes the effort to enhance or restore the natural environment by replanting/seeding should be commended :!:

In recent years there has been a major creek/river trout rehabilitation program going on. Know how your provincial DFO funds were spent? Roads along rivers are de-activated and Hitachi's push boulders and dead trees into the river. If I do that I am altering the watercourse and can be fined, but SFU students/prof get grants to do it and screw up my summer toobin lines. What is the difference between the 2?
Perception.

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 12:23 AM
Archive, good post, and it sums up what I have been trying to say all along..

This is a very relevent part of your post that I have cut out:

[="Archive"] Believe what you know, not what you think you know.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I have been saying! :D

Foxer
04-13-2004, 01:50 AM
Sorry guys, gatehouse is right. I looked into this a while back for wolves and such.

The only animal prohibited from baiting is bear.

There is a law which says you cannot FEED danerous animals - in such a case, it is considered FEEDING if you leave your bait unattended. So if you leave out a bunch of meat over night and then come in the morning to see if the wolves have been at it - that's attempting to feed a dangerous animal. You'd have to bring the meat with you when you came, and take it when you left.

There ARE regulations, however, about planting on crown land. You can't just go out there and start sowing whatever you want - this isn't permitted as i understand it, but that's not part of the wildlife act.

You will note that some species have restrictions - for example it is illegal to hunt migratory game birds in an area where they have been fed until 7 days after you stop feeding them. But that's it.

So yes you can bait. For example - In the okanagan, you can crush an apple and put it on a stick in a feild (you can elsewhere, but the deer may not know what an apple is).

HOWEVER - if it is food that dangerous game MIGHT eat, you must take it with you. If it is food a BEAR would likely eat - then you must take it with you and you can't hunt over it. That limits what you can put out and for how long. And you most certanly cannot be sowing seed on crown land, especially not seed foriegn to the area, without permission.

There are some excellent deer seeds available in canada - my fave is a mix designed to be spread over the snow - it comes up in spring and again in fall, which is critical times - the animals ability to make it thru the winter is largely governed by how much food it gets before the rut and before the snows hit. And you can do that on private land - but NOT crown land without a permit.

I guess you could dump a salt lick somewhere (if bears dont' eat salt licks) but for the most part the regs that are in place limit you to basically scent based attractants. And there are precious few of those. I guess a bale of locally grown feed put in a feild would be legal - if the deer like that kind of feed.

Foxer
04-13-2004, 11:13 AM
Ok guys - to be sure i contacted both wlap and my local CO today to seek clarification on this.

Everyone thinks baiting is illegal - but both sources say that while everyone they talk to think that, there IS NO LAW AGAINST IT OR EVEN DISCOURAGING IT. They personally ask people not to do it, but there is no restriction for feeding animals or for baiting a deer with the express purpose of shooting it. (EXCEPT the previous dangerous animal and waterfowl restricitons mentioned).

The CO said he seemed to recall that there was some restriction for PLANTING anything on crown land, and this would be covered under the forest range and protection act he thought. - HOWEVER, if you got permission to plant a big ole alfalfa feild or something you could hunt over it - you could in fact plant a big sign saying "I planted this so that i could lure deer here and shoot them" and no official would blink.

Everyone thinks its illegal, it isn't. It might very well be IMMORAL - but not illegal.

In a way - we do it already. If there was a small burn last year, where do you hunt? The burn of course because the animals will show up there for the new growth and it's easy to see well. It's the same thing really.

I was surprised, but it's perfectly legal and he says lots of people feed the animals in the fall - they DO ask people not to just go out and feed the animals, but it is NOT illegal.

wounded
04-13-2004, 05:40 PM
Thanks foxer for doing the dirty work here and getting to the bottom of this thread.I guess gatehouse does not have to eat crow so does that mean 3 kills has too? 8O 8O 8O Lets find out if we can plant now from the ministry of forests? then let the planting begin :) :)

3kills
04-13-2004, 06:43 PM
hey i never said i would eat crow...i will admit i was wrong but i still think it should be illegal...and then i was thinkin about it today u plant seeds the deer arent going to be eatin all that much the cows will eat it all up first..well thats how it would be here anyways cuz of all the free grazin cattle around here...

BCHunter
04-13-2004, 06:49 PM
so salt blocks are ok?

I was just told no you can't bait deer in anyway.

3kills
04-13-2004, 06:51 PM
i was always told that too...even from co's and what not....

wounded
04-13-2004, 06:54 PM
Darn no crow eating ehh!! ok then, we got a way to keep them burping, ozone eatin ,methane producer's out.Can't say thopugh its a secret my grandpappy told me . :lol: :lol: :lol:

3kills
04-13-2004, 06:56 PM
well wounded u could eat crows just for the fun of it :D as long as u dont build fences...there is a couple guys in our gun club here that just got in big ca ca for that one :?

BCHunter
04-13-2004, 06:57 PM
a few years back I bought 4 powder products that attract deer"Buck Spice", "Pro Bucks" I went back a week later and they said they are no longer selling it due to hunting laws in BC... :?:

wounded
04-13-2004, 06:59 PM
Like gatehouse said before ,What we are told is one thing but what the law is,is another. Sometimes even the enforcer's make mistakes. :wink: :wink:

3kills
04-13-2004, 07:01 PM
bchunter was talkin to a guy the other day about a prodcut called sniffs they have them for moose and deer..they are like an incent thing and u just light a few up a few hundred yards away from each other and then sit some where and watch....of course there has to be deer or mooose in the area...but apparently they work wonders...one of the guys from the sports shop here tried one out when they first come out and he went back the next day just to see and there was sign like crazy there was hair and blood all over the place from bucks fighting...i think they might be worth a shot...

3kills
04-13-2004, 07:04 PM
yes wounded ur right that is how it is....but u should still always call the proper authorities....now if i up and decided i want to plant a food plot cuz foxer said it was legal i would still call some one and find out for sure...just for the simple fact that u cant take everyones word for what is said right...

p.s no offence foxer ur a great guy and i m sure u are right but still always gotta double check.... :D

wounded
04-13-2004, 07:12 PM
I trust foxer's info.So why beat a dead horse here,I looked into other sources around about it before and found no laws to be against it.But now we have to find out if we can put seeds in the ground by the foresty ,what kind,how big of plot is legal ,where we can do this.etc who knows a forestry worker here?ask them :? :?

BCHunter
04-13-2004, 07:13 PM
well I guess I'm going to get some use out of these then :twisted: ....I two of each. Read the instructions

http://www.hunt101.com/img/135653.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/135652.jpg

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 08:25 PM
SOmeone is eating crow, and it sure isn't me! :D

Check the facts, ladies and gentlemen...

I've been given innaccurate info on many occasions, from people that should know better.

I was once told by the Fire Chief in Whistler that you aren't legally allowed to transport propane (BBQ style) tanks INSIDE a vehicle. They must be mounted outside..(He was generalizing, talking about RV's)

I asked him how he expects people to transport thier BBQ tanks home form the gas station! :roll:

I once had my truck robbed in Vancouver. I was returning from a hunting trip, and had to go for a business meeting, so I did not unload my gear.

When the officer asked "was the rifle trigger locked?" I said NO.

He told me he could charge me with illegal transport or something. I just pulled out the little CFC pamphlet that was in the stand AT THE POLICE station, and handed it to him...He was suitably puzzled.

When I went to a local store to get a insurance quote, the clerk repeated the routine..."IT MUST BE TRIGGER LOCKED!!!" He was adamant...So I took the same pamphlet form his rack and gave it to him...

If it is not written down in the law, and the CO whoever cannot give you the proper regulation, then it is NOT the law, only an OPINION.

And if there is no law AGAINST a particular activity, then it is a LEGAL activity... :D

wounded
04-13-2004, 08:25 PM
done it and works great bchunter :D :D

BCHunter
04-13-2004, 08:28 PM
do they really work it up?

wounded
04-13-2004, 08:32 PM
They paw the shit outa the ground .up to 4 inch holes 3x5 feet I have some great whiteies on a camtracker that would blow your mind, one was shot and it grossed 164 and another non typical 195 great bucks great spice ,this was put out in the summer also.,

3kills
04-13-2004, 08:43 PM
this is what foxer wrote that the co told him...


The CO said he seemed to recall that there was some restriction for PLANTING anything on crown land, and this would be covered under the forest range and protection act he thought

Foxer
04-13-2004, 08:44 PM
Here's some interesting products i noticed before:

https://media5.magma.ca/www.canadiancamo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=240&products_id=298

Read the 'more info' at the bottom - it can provide good forage for most of the year.

Here's a bit of an interesting product - Deer Chum (like shark chum) :)

https://media5.magma.ca/www.canadiancamo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=240&products_id=1178

They claim a 2 lb bag is equal to 50 lbs of fermenting apples :)

I don't know how deer would react to that in places where there are no apple trees.

3kills
04-13-2004, 08:45 PM
wounded what i m tryin to say is how well do u know every one on this site...unless u hear if from a co ur self how do u know some one isnt just bullshittin ya...

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 09:00 PM
wounded what i m tryin to say is how well do u know every one on this site...unless u hear if from a co ur self how do u know some one isnt just bullshittin ya...

You could try consulting a legal document instead of soliciting the opinion of someone.

3kills
04-13-2004, 09:03 PM
by u going out and just plantin seed with out talkin to some one is that exact same thing...

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 09:11 PM
by u going out and just plantin seed with out talkin to some one is that exact same thing...

You asked a question and I answered it. That you don't like my answer is not my problem, I am afraid.

If I was going to plant seed, it would be on my land. I need to consult noone about that.

If I wanted to plant seed on Crown Land, I would consult a legal document, and have the proper documentation in writing.

I wouldn't just solicit the opinion of a CO.

'talkin' to someone does not qualify as a legal. Only the written law is considered legal.

Foxer
04-13-2004, 09:12 PM
Hey 3kills - i won't be the slightest bit offended if you second guess me and call yourself. Goodness knows it never, ever hurts to hear it from the horses mouth yourself. By all means, call the ministry and/or your local CO.

It's a bit hard to prove a negative. If something doesn't exist, i can't point to an empty spot and say 'see, there it isn't'. But there isn't anything anywhere in the regs - which have been posted here. And they DO mention baiting bears - but no other animals.

Have at it tho, and let us know if you get a different answer than i did. Hey, maybe the two people I talked to were mistaken, or maybe i asked it wrong. I'm pretty confident that we've arrived at a correct answer.

Mind you - i've been wrong in the past.

3kills
04-13-2004, 09:16 PM
gatehouse i was talkin about wounded wanting to run out and plant it on crown land not private

foxer i m sure that u got that answer but like u said it is better to here it from the horses mouth...and i will ask my co here just to see what he says...i m sure ur right though...

bone-collector
04-13-2004, 09:18 PM
well I called the smithers CO office and got handed to a enviromental bioligist ?? why I have no freeking idea but he said basicaly the same thing Foxer got at his end of BC with the added speach about private property and permision and about atracting dangerous game (bears,wolves,coyotes,cougars etc etc) so unless bears and cougars are goung to eat miracle grow or a chia pet then its legal so I have been informed

Foxer
04-13-2004, 09:21 PM
BTW - there's a few references in the range act mentioned above. Here's one excerpt:

Invasive plants
47
A person carrying out a forest practice or a range practice must carry out measures that are
(a) specified in the applicable operational plan, or
(b) authorized by the minister
to prevent the introduction or spread of prescribed species of invasive plants.


I haven't read the whole act yet - it's at:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/tasb/legsregs/frpa/frpa/FRPATOC.htm

3kills
04-13-2004, 09:22 PM
so if u go out and grow alphalpha and bears start showing up and eating it then its illegal...

bone-collector
04-13-2004, 09:26 PM
no its not illegal but its illegal to shoot the bear on the alphalpha that you planted as it falls under the dangerous game ....unless you didnt know that there was alphalpha planted there or it was on a logging road were they used it for soil erosion , would be my guess at that
obviously this is a law left way outin left field for interpratation that is the 1 thing I do know for certain :lol:

wounded
04-13-2004, 09:29 PM
THis is starting to get gray again .When I thought foxer cleared the air :lol: :lol: I sent marc a pic of what comes to food plots and buck spice ,enjoy :D :D :D Its small one thats going to be saved for next year or so.

3kills
04-13-2004, 09:32 PM
no wounded there is still some grey area here...he cleared it up that u can bait deer on private land...but u have other shit to worry about doin it on crown land...

Foxer
04-13-2004, 09:33 PM
so if u go out and grow alphalpha and bears start showing up and eating it then its illegal...


well - up to a point :) He talked to me about that - they would deal with it if it were a problem, and sometimes the go and talk to people about their activities if there are issues. For example, they've had some 'decorative' apple or crabapple trees cut down in areas where it was brining a bear into town.

But I think they wouldn't call it baiting. Putting something out that specifically attracts a bear for the purpose of hunting is baiting. If a bear happens to eat your deer feed - it's not considered the same thing entirely. but they'd probably ask you to knock it off.

Like he said - we know if there's logging and a burn this year, there'll be forage next year. Where do we hunt? Yeap, right there. Is that baiting? It's basically the same thing, yet its' not considered baiting. They seem to attach a certian amount of intent to it before they consider it criminal baiting. Otherwise, it's just a 'nusience' and they'll ask you to clean it up or stop doing it.

wounded
04-13-2004, 09:34 PM
Its not considered BAITING anywhere and you can do it on crown land!!!!! Planting it on crown land is the question here now?
:o :o

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 09:42 PM
You CAN bait on crown land, for deer, moose or elk.

If you want to throw out a bale of hay, or a salt lick to hunt over, it is LEGAL. We have established that.

If there is a concern that 'dangerous' wildlife may EAT the hay, you must remove it after hunting.

If a bear shows up and eats it while you are hunting, you MAY NOT shoot it.

If it is legal to plant clover on crown land (and it may very well be legal, as clover isn't an invasive plant) you can hunt there, too.

If a bear starts eating it, you cannot shoot it.

Also, remmeber that in law, you mst prove INTENT. If you INTENDED to attract dangerous wildlife to your crown land clove patch, it is illegal. But if you INTENDED to only attract deer, it is NOT illegal, even if a bear shows up.

This is my *opinion.* :D

3kills
04-13-2004, 09:42 PM
well no foxer huntin an area where there was a burn is not the same thing cuz the grass growing in a brunt out area is the act of nataure if u go spread seed then its not natural right???

Salty
04-13-2004, 09:44 PM
so unless bears and cougars are goung to eat miracle grow or a chia pet then its legal so I have been informed


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gateholio
04-13-2004, 09:50 PM
(2) A person commits an offence if the person, with the intent of attracting dangerous wildlife to any land or premises, provides, leaves or places in, on or about the land or premises food, food waste or any other substance that could attract dangerous wildlife to the land or premises.

Also, it appears that this section is describing private property.

It says 'land or premises' which may be interpreted as 'private' land, as it doesn't specify "crown' land...

Foxer
04-13-2004, 10:06 PM
no - it's an act of the logging company. If they hadn't logged and then burnt - there would be no new grasses and browse there. it would be a mature forest.

It's not worth making a mountian out of a molehill here - it's pretty simple i'd say. if you're putting stuff out with the intent to attract bears, it's baiting. If you put out something to attract deer and a bear shows up and starts eating it - well, if it's eating your actual bait, then don't shoot it and quit using that bait. If its just cruising around (remeber, bears sometimes just show up) then no problem. But at no time are you BAITING a bear - if it ate your bait then you would be guilty of feeding a bear by accident, not baiting.

Bottom line - if you can get permission under the land use plan for that area go ahead and plant away - then shoot whatever showes up because it's not really baiting. If it starts to attract bears to the area, it's probably best to knock it off - or at the very least be sure you're not attracting them near humans.

A bear isn't going to be particularly interested in one patch of grass over another patch of grass. I'd hardly call it baiting. Deer might go out of their way to get some barley tho, or alfalfa, especically if it was close to cover.

The ministry isnt' worried about this. they know when someone's trying to bait a bear and when someone's trying to bait a deer. It's quite obvious. And let me remind you - the guy said lots of people do this. They feed animals in the winter, they bait and feed deer, etc. You can even get feeds that promote antler growth - stuff with lots of protein and calcium in it. I think it sounds like more hassle than it's worth - but by all means contact the forestry ministry and seek permission if you want - there's nothing wrong with a few more deer surviving the winter healthy and well fed. They'll probably insist you use native feeds only.

Foxer
04-13-2004, 10:08 PM
Here's an example of baiting for dangerous animals - the CO said when he was young he knew hunters in his area that would catch a beaver, gut it, and nail it to a tree. Sooner or later a cougar would show up. THAT's baiting. Planing some alfalfa probably isnt' really considered baiting at the best of times, and unless it's attracting bears there that wouldnt' be there anyway, it's not baiting bear either.

bone-collector
04-13-2004, 10:18 PM
ok Warren but what if we made a chia pet outta the beavers skull in the tree? :lol:

Foxer
04-13-2004, 10:47 PM
Then i'd probably stop hunting and start finding you some professional help. Then i'd shoot a bear.

bone-collector
04-13-2004, 10:49 PM
well there is no help for me so thats a lost cause , but hey a chia in a bear skull would look kewl to :wink: :lol:

GoatGuy
04-14-2004, 08:16 PM
Ok, now if a bear just miraclously shows up you can't shoot it. You aren't allowed (yes, that means it's illegal) to hunt bears within 400 meters of any form of bait. Yes, that's what it says.

As far as ethics go-some have 'em and some don't. Some guys shoot their buddy's tags and some don't. Some guys shoot out the windows of their trucks and some don't. It's just like the americans who are bow hunting on t.v. and all the sudden a buck appears right underneath the friggen tree stands. Ever noticed all the corn at the bottom of the tree. It's tough to see cause it's usually damn near dark but it's there. Real Sporting!!!!!

Wounded if you plan on planting grass in the Okanagan you better be ready to have a turf war with the local grow-op operators. They're pretty tough dudes round these parts. I think the majority of the deer around here are half-baked. Maybe that's why the road warriors are so succesful !!!!!

Foxer
04-14-2004, 08:35 PM
You aren't allowed (yes, that means it's illegal) to hunt bears within 400 meters of any form of bait.

I don't think you could qualify a feild of alfalfa that you planted last year to be bait. If it were, every guy who hunted a cut block that was burnt or planted last year would be guilty. (this is how the CO put it).

If you put out something like apples and the bear came and started to eat the apples - different story. If the bear just started wandering around and wasn't particularly interested in the apples - it's not really bear baiting. There's a huge difference between a bear specific bait (like rotting fish and day old dougnuts) and something that a bear might eat if it was hungry, but wouldn't attract it particularly.

GoatGuy
04-14-2004, 08:49 PM
If you're planting alfalfa specifically to attract or bait animals then it would be baiting. There's no way around it if you're planting it on crown land. Now, if it was private land and you intended to harvest it to make $$$ that would be a whole different story, however bait is bait is bait.

There's a big difference between you planting alfalfa and forestry burning a cut block.

And it isn't about a bear coming to eat the apples. If a bear comes in and isn't interested in the apples then it you would still be baiting and hunting within 400 metres. Suppose you set up moose ribs and sit and wait and then you see a bear near the moose ribs, but you shoot it before the bear gets to the ribs. Are you still baiting? Yes, because you're hunting within 400 metres. Or suppose he isn't interested in the ribs cause he just wolfed down the weeks supply of grub in your cooler. What that not be considered baiting then? It isn't about if they eat the bait, the law says you can't be hunting bears within 400 metres of bait. Seems pretty clear. It's all about intent and the reasonable person. If you intended on planting alfalfa on crown land a reasonable person would expect everything including bears. Also you'd have the intention of hunting anything that comes near.

BCHunter
04-14-2004, 08:54 PM
here's what I got



Hi Danny,

The answer is indeed, according to no law to the contrary, yes, for deer, and anything other than bears (both black and grizzly) according to the Wildlife Act, and waterfowl and migratory birds under the Migratory Birds Convention Act.

However, all baiting for hunting is considered here in BC unethical to the highest degree imaginable. Not a "fair chase" scenario as far as recording the animal(s) taken in such circumstances for B&C or P&Y or the BC Trophy Records Club Book &etc. Laws governing baiting are variable according to jurisdiction across the globe. I can only speak for ours in BC.

Here's one you can use in the Trivia Battle:

It is lawful for a registered trapper to trap black bears; but you can not use a trap or use bait. You can only trap black bears using specific size firearms -- i.e. hunting methods. See p. 92 of the Synopsis 2. (i), (q), (r), (s). Again, I'll collect half your winnings on everything you make with this ammunition, unless of course, you decide to donate to HCTF. Good luck.

Baiting traps by registered trappers to carry on trapping on their lines and to solve problem and nuisance animal conflicts is again another issue -- other than black bears

bone-collector
04-14-2004, 08:56 PM
so standing next to a McDonalds dumpster is out? :lol:

GoatGuy
04-14-2004, 09:04 PM
Wow, what are you trying to pick up at the dumpster near mcdonalds B-collector? :P
Woodster and I ran into a few outback of the subway in the 'Hoof last summer on our way up north. The weren't bears, but they smelled like it!!!!! :roll: Woodster fit right in!

Foxer
04-14-2004, 09:28 PM
If you're planting alfalfa specifically to attract or bait animals then it would be baiting. There's no way around it if you're planting it on crown land. Now, if it was private land and you intended to harvest it to make $$$ that would be a whole different story, however bait is bait is bait.

There's a big difference between you planting alfalfa and forestry burning a cut block.


It would indeed be baiting - but not baiting for bears unless whatever you planted was specifically (or effectively) a bear attractant. I was just pointing out that if you baited for deer, but then a bear showed up, its not baiting for bear unless it's attracted to the food.

This is all largely theoretical anyway, because realistically i doubt any of us are going to run out and start baiting anyway. It's not how we hunt around here as a rule. But baiting isn't much different than using a scent attractant. If you hung up an estrus drip, and a bear showed up, would you be able to shoot it? Yes, because bears are not attracted by that scent (btw, by the definition scents and attractants are bait). If it was determined that bears came to that scent all the time then they'd probably make people stop. So if you planted something that didn't really attract bears - that wouldn't be baiting a bear.

They only care about people who are actually trying to bait bear - or feed dangerous animals. Baiting requires the animal to be attracted to it. So while bait is bait, it may not be bear bait. And if it is, then they're probably eating it and you shouldn't be planting it anyway because you're not supposed to feed dangerous animals either.

Gateholio
04-14-2004, 09:41 PM
Does it specifically state 400 metres for bears? It does for waterfowl.

But we still have to prove intent. Remember that! :D

Moose ribs would be intent to attract a bear...alphalfa? That's debatable, I suppose. 8)

Foxer
04-14-2004, 09:57 PM
I think they really don't care. I'm not sure why we do so much :)

We technically break the law all the time. ever leave a gut pile somewhere that coyotes live? Technically, that's feeding coyotes. but realistically there's no way they'd ever bust you for it. Now, if you start leaving gut piles around camping areas, they might have a word or two with you cause you're pulling 'dangerous' animals into areas where they are likely to come in contact with people.

3kills
04-15-2004, 12:42 AM
bait-means anything,including meat,cervals,cultivated crops,restrained animal or any manufactured product or materail,that may attract wildlifeand includeds plastic,or other imatation foods,but does not include decoys as described under the regulations

thats what the defination for bait is...it doesnt say anything about bait for bears or deer or whatever it just say bait so growing alpalpha is bait and it can be classed as baitin for bears if a bear shows up and eats it

and foxer there is people on here that are going to run out and start baitin for deer cuz thats how this whole thread got started...wounded wants to bait for deer...

way i look at it if ur going to bait for deer what kinda hunter are u...cant u find them the good old fashion way???

Foxer
04-15-2004, 01:01 AM
It has to attract the wildlife 3kills. That's my point. If there's alfalfa and it DOESNT attract the bear - it's not baiting bear. The fact that it DOES attract another animal means you're baiting the other animal. That's the point I was making. If you have estrus scent out, and a bear shows up, is that baiting a bear? Of course not. But estrus is bait.

The law says it's illegal to hunt bears using bait. That's the phrasing - so if you're not using the bait to hunt the bear - you're in no violation. Bait that doesn't attract a bear or isn't usefull in the hunting of a bear wouldnt' count. You have to be using the bait for the purpose of hunting a bear. It's meare existance isn't enough.

You might run afoul of the FEEDING bears rule tho if the bear ate some, But i don't think they'd care in that case, it's a little too far removed from the spirit of the law.

Thousands of people go into the woods with scents - technically it's baiting, is it illegal for them to shoot a bear while using it? No. Or at least, the ministry wouldn't consider it to be. Now - if bears came to estrus... different story.

And just so you know - baiting is one of the oldest forms of hunting. That, and scaring the animal off a cliff. :lol:


and foxer there is people on here that are going to run out and start baitin for deer cuz thats how this whole thread got started...wounded wants to bait for deer...

Well i stand corrected - you're right. However, i must say that when i think of baiting I tend to think in terms of something a little more 'immediate' than planting a feild this year to hunt over next year. Realistically, we all look for food plots and waterand travel routes. There's no guarantee of when an animal might use the area sown, or where precisely it will be when it does. (most plots are a good size). Putting a salt lick in a strategic location a week before you're going to hunt there is baiting in my mind, and is a little unethical. Those auto - corn feeders you can get in the states fall outside of 'fair chase' in my mind. But just planting a bit of browse? I dunno - i don't know if i'd have as much trouble with that. I guess it would depend on how you did it and how big the area was, etc. I mean, if you found a nice feild of natural browse, you'd go back and hunt over it right? I think it's walking into a greyer area.... Does fair chase apply if you plant food for them that they may or may not be using come hunting season?

bone-collector
04-15-2004, 07:50 AM
Tell yea what Warren, shoot a bear over a planted crop (that you planted) I beleive that (and wasnt confirmed in BC) but unless you know or willingly hunt over it then you would be baiting ! if you are walking down a logging road and shoot a bear that would not be baiting as you have no idea what is there that has atracted the bear suposedly , regardless only a piss poor hunter needs bait in BC :!: (and no I am not pointing fingers just stating a fact)

Gateholio
04-15-2004, 08:03 AM
Who wants to shoot a bear over your clover crop anyway? There's a zillion bears out there, and it's effectiveness would proabbaly rank near the bottom of the list in BC.

You'll do better finding bears by driving around in your car, even if you don't get out of it, than sitting over a grass patch.

Some people consider baiting unethical, some people think drivign around in a truck and jumping out and blasting some deer is unethical, some people think that using dogs is unethical.

I'd go so far as to say that someone who actually goes out and plants a food crop, cultivates it, and then sets up in a treestand with a bow, is going to alot more effort than some guy that drives around in a car and only exits the vehicle to shoot a deer. :roll:

But none of us are talking about how road hunting is unethical,or illegal, because it is a common practice among many hunters...

3kills
04-15-2004, 08:20 AM
i agree if u find some new green u will go back and hunt it over and over...but what i m sayin is if u go out and put that deer spice or whatever in the bush thats unethical same with pumpin deer full of steroids so there rack gets bigger...using natures growen green grass to find deer is fine but when u gotta go out and put corn or alphalpha where it usually wouldnt be...come on do u not see deer any other time???

and what happens if cattle gets there big mouths on this deerr spice or miracle rack grower stuff...u get sick cows or whatever u are going to have some pissed of cowboys and i think that would be worse then dealing with a pissed co...

yes gatehouse ur right this thread isnt about road hunting so lets not talk about it in here....if u wanna talk about it start another thread...

Gateholio
04-15-2004, 09:24 AM
i
yes gatehouse ur right this thread isnt about road hunting so lets not talk about it in here....if u wanna talk about it start another thread...

I didn't realize you were in charge here..Sorry, what was I thinking?
:roll:

At least part of this thread has been about ehtics. If you read my post correctly, you will see that ethics come into play whatever method of hunting you choose.

The bait hunter (as I described) that works hard to cultivate his plot, makes sure he is in a good area, checks the wind, examines the deers travel routes, passes up the smaller deer waiting for a chance for a big guy with his bow...All the while providing good forage for the whole deer herd...

Well, I'd have to say that he is probably a more ethical (or at least harder working) hunter than the guy that drives down the road and blasts the first deer with horns he sees!

bone-collector
04-15-2004, 09:36 AM
I'd have to say that he is probably a more ethical (or at least harder working) hunter than the guy that drives down the road and blasts the first deer with horns he sees!

WTF, deer down south have horns :?: :?: :?:


(Sorry Clarke had to throw it in :lol: )

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_7.gif

Gateholio
04-15-2004, 09:50 AM
No more than they have 'bones' coming from thier head! :D

bone-collector
04-15-2004, 10:00 AM
ok got me there :lol:
this thread is getting old time for a grizz thread 8O :lol: :lol:

3kills
04-15-2004, 10:14 AM
gatehouse never said was in charge just sayin why hijack the thread...

Foxer
04-15-2004, 10:15 AM
agree if u find some new green u will go back and hunt it over and over...but what i m sayin is if u go out and put that deer spice or whatever in the bush thats unethical same with pumpin deer full of steroids so there rack gets bigger...using natures growen green grass to find deer is fine but when u gotta go out and put corn or alphalpha where it usually wouldnt be...come on do u not see deer any other time???

Well, the main reason to plant stuff isn't to hunt over it, it's to ensure that deer in that area are well fed - and often to promote "horn growth" (haha gatehouse :) ) They don't use steroids for that, they use feed that's specifically very high in the nutrients necessary for antlers to grow. Corn and other rich foods give the deers' bodies lots and lots of calcium and the other elements required, and this has shown to result directly in much larger racks.

I don't approve of that personally. But there IS some value in making sure there's a healthy supply of food in the area in SOME cases, if you do it right it will help keep the animals strong even if the winter is harsh, and can keep them safer from predators as well. For example, a large, long patch on the south side of an old growth area keeps deer close to cover in the winter. Some browses are lower light, and can be sown under a moderate canopy. That kind of thing.

I guess maybe i'll start a new thread to deal with the ethics.

Gateholio
04-15-2004, 10:42 AM
It's not a hijack, it's a tangent...Or different aspect of the same topic, or loosly touching the same topic but at a different angle...

If you want to nit pick, then look who started the hijack..Wonded asked a simple question about food plots- not the legality or the ethics of a food plot, just about food plots.

It wasn't too long before some people jumped in and HIJACKED it away from a food thread to a legality issue.

Whatever.. 8)

bone-collector
04-15-2004, 12:15 PM
well I think a grizz would eat you if he smelt you lurking next to a food plot that he may be interested in tasting or using as a bait pile for himself to get deer :!: :lol: :lol:

and the chia pet bait pile still stands it looks prettier :!: :lol:

wounded
04-15-2004, 05:47 PM
Sounds like we are beating a dead horse here guys :? :? Its legal . :D

3kills
04-15-2004, 06:22 PM
its legal on private land!!! but still unethical !!!!

3kills
04-15-2004, 06:35 PM
and wounded if u think we are beatin a dead horse then dont post and replies or read the threads..u started the thread u wanted answers and it has been a busy topic...let it run...

Foxer
04-15-2004, 07:32 PM
Well gee - it's only 8 pages. :lol: In the words of Marvin, the Paranoid Android, "why stop now, just when we're hating it?" http://www.emotipad.com/liteemoticons/banghead.gif

Hehehe

bone-collector
04-15-2004, 07:36 PM
ok Warren let the thread die in peice FFS :!:

wounded
04-15-2004, 09:53 PM
All I wanted to know is if anyone else was planting food plots?.I knew it was legal .Someone else started the ethical thing!! 3kills all you want is a fight !! :P :P

3kills
04-15-2004, 11:50 PM
no actaully wounded i dont want a fight...i honestly thought it was illegal...we found out its legal to bait deer...now i m stating its not 100% to plant on crown land...

hey foxer why not just make it an even 10 lol :lol:

wounded
04-16-2004, 04:54 PM
prove your 100% ??? 8) 8) Where does it state that ??

3kills
04-16-2004, 05:15 PM
it has already been posted in here...like i said learn to read!!! :D

wounded
04-16-2004, 05:38 PM
what exactly are you refering too? :D :D

3kills
04-16-2004, 05:41 PM
i m refering to the fact that obvioulsy have not read the whole thread go back and read the whole thing again and it states just in a couple of posts that u can not run out and just start dumping seed everywhere....

Marc
04-16-2004, 05:42 PM
OK my turn to jump in. :lol: What is the real difference between hunting a food plot or hunting over a farmers field that we know the deer are feeding in? If I owned a nice piece of land and had a nice corner section near the woods I'd have a food plot planted. It keeps the deer in the area and like Foxer mentioned it ensures that the remaining deer that are not shot that fall get strong and survive the winter with healthy fawns in the spring. I don't believe in hunting animals that are fenced in. these animals can come and go as they please the same as if they'd use a farmers field.

I'm from the East coast and baiting used to be mandatory for hunting black bears. You weren't allowed to shot a bear that was more then 400 yards from your bait sight. You had to register your bait sight with the Forest rangers and they approved it or denied it depending on how close to people and other bait sights. Baiting for bear is hard work. You have to hump 50 lbs of apples donuts and what ever else sweet you can drag back into the woods every second or 3rd day. Do this for 3 or 4 weeks and then sit in a stand and still might not even see a bear. The woods are really thick and the bears are a lot scarcer over there. You may get a bear hit your bait and then you may not. I did it and never saw a bear though I know they were hitting the bait.

I've hunted deer over apples. Here again it's a hit or miss. Back east we don't have the population of deer or the same species of deer for that fact. It's mostly buck only unless you get a doe draw. I've shot 2 deer over apples that were set under an apple tree in a farmer’s field. We picked the tree clean and only put a certain amount of apples on the ground at a time to ration how long the apples would last and to keep the deer there. I've also shot deer still-hunting. To me it's all legal and except able.

Here in BC things are different and there seems to be more opportunity to see deer. I don't think it would be worth the effort unless it's in a field in your back yard to put a food plot in. A lot of people do it just to attract wildlife on their land to for their family to see and enjoy.

You guys know my quote " If it's legal then it's legal no if's and's or but's"

3kills
04-16-2004, 05:51 PM
marc what i m tryin to say is that ur not alot to just go out and pick up see and then run out and dump ur seed or buck spice or whatever the product may be u have to actually get proper permits and what not....and it can only be certain types of seeds u can use..and from what i have read it say that u have to have a plan on how u are doing it and how things are giong and what not...

Foxer
04-16-2004, 07:06 PM
Yeah, that whole 'land planning zone' issue is really nebulous in the forestry regs. I'm going to give them a shout on monday and try to figure out what it means. It may be that there are already some types either allowed or prohib'd and as long as you stay to the rules, no issue. Or, it may be that you have to apply to the land use planning counsel for permission. Or it may be they have their heads straight up their #$^* and i won't get a clear answer for days :) hehehe.

There are a whole bunch of references that use words like 'we ask' and "people are encouraged" or "try to" when referring to feed taken into the woods and plants and such, but nothing that just comes right out and discusses it. I KNOW some orgs do it for conservation - so it must be possible. But trying to track down which act and reg it falls under is a pain.

Marc
04-16-2004, 08:28 PM
I see what your saying 3kills, but that only applies to crown land and land that doesn't bleong to you. I wouldn't think you'd need a permit to plant on your own land if it's just an annual crop or a native crop to Canada.

Marc.

Foxer
04-16-2004, 08:32 PM
yeah - your own land is a null issue, plant what you like.

Gateholio
04-16-2004, 10:19 PM
We actuallyhave NOT established that it is against the law to go out and plant some deer clover on Crown Land.

(AS far as I can see)

Even Foxer seems befuddled on this, and he usually researches things to extreme (sometimes annoying :D ) levels!

I'm not talking about grwoing corn, soybeans, tomatos or asparagus- I'm talking CLOVER. 8)

Foxer
04-16-2004, 10:29 PM
Even Foxer seems befuddled on this, and he usually researches things to extreme (sometimes annoying ) levels!


Extreme? Annoying! What slander is this?!? I'm the soul of moderation i'll have you know! To prove it, i'll post up 2 or 3 relevent psychology reports and studies, throw up a quick poll on the subject, and cross reference the entire thing against my previous posts on this and other boards!

And then i'll call the ministry and find out what they say! No.. wait... Maybe i won't do that....

Nails
04-16-2004, 11:05 PM
As far as I am concerned plant what ever you want that is legal on your own property. Crown land is not for your own personal crop. I would be the first to rip it out and report it. Crown Land is for all people to enjoy, all public land is owned by the Crown. Crown Land is not for joe citzen to do what ever he feels( planting food crops for deer, cut down trees, ect).

Gateholio
04-16-2004, 11:09 PM
[quote]

And then i'll call the ministry and find out what they say! No.. wait... Maybe i won't do that....

You BETTER $%^&* do it, or we are going to be on this thread until September! :D

Foxer
04-16-2004, 11:11 PM
But just to play devil's advocate here nails - what if it was planted within the law? If it was approved under the land use planning for that area for example? (or whatever turns out to be necessary).

People cut trails, isn't that the same sort of thing - using crown land for your own purposes?

Foxer
04-16-2004, 11:12 PM
You BETTER $%^&* do it, or we are going to be on this thread until September!


yeah .. and frankly if my name and the words annoying and excessive were used in the same sentance, i have a pretty good idea what their answer would be anyway...

Gateholio
04-16-2004, 11:13 PM
As far as I am concerned plant what ever you want that is legal on your own property. Crown land is not for your own personal crop. I would be the first to rip it out and report it. Crown Land is for all people to enjoy, all public land is owned by the Crown. Crown Land is not for joe citzen to do what ever he feels( planting food crops for deer, cut down trees, ect).

You may be right, but what we have been trying to establish is whether it is LEGAL or not... Not if it is the right thing to do.. :D

For instance, the RIGHT thing to do is to scrap the gun registry, and not register any guns in Canada at all...However it is not LEGAL to have an unregistered gun..despite that it is the right thing to do..

Does that make sense??? :? :lol:

Nails
04-16-2004, 11:29 PM
But just to play devil's advocate here nails - what if it was planted within the law? If it was approved under the land use planning for that area for example? (or whatever turns out to be necessary).

Area's that are planted are generally marked and registered with a permit #.

3kills
04-16-2004, 11:47 PM
hey todd i would be right there beside u helping ya rip it up...

Foxer
04-17-2004, 12:22 AM
if you two are so eager to tear up 'unauthorized food plots' i'd suggest that you start with the dope plantations before you sweat the clover :)


Area's that are planted are generally marked and registered with a permit #.

Ok, so lets say that's what the law requires. But my question was 'what if it was planted within the law'. In other words, do you have issues with the idea of someone enhancing browse in an area if it's done within the law?

wounded
04-17-2004, 07:31 AM
What about enhancing the feed that is allready there?With a organic fertilizer that you use for your vegetable gardens,watering when it starts to dry out,I have a few spots like that on CROWN land that by the time deer season comes around its mostly dryed up .What if I help that area out thats allready there. Is that also imoral to you guys .I will hunt around it and probally over it . 8) 8) I find this a great way to hunt.I don't burn alot of gas this way either.I hunt with a bow ,crossbow,and rifle .I will use all of them for deer season . 8O :wink: :wink: :wink:

3kills
04-17-2004, 09:07 AM
hey if i came across a marijuana plantation i probably would tear it up....and wounded when i was reading the forestry act it talks about using fertalizers to enhance growth...

wounded
04-17-2004, 10:02 AM
and can you :?: Be carefull ripping out those big green plants though .You might end up in a gun fight or under the plants for fertilizer. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gateholio
04-22-2004, 08:16 PM
So...

Did anyone ever find out the laws regarding the planting of clover on crown land? :?:

Gateholio
05-03-2004, 04:12 PM
So...

Did anyone ever find out the laws regarding the planting of clover on crown land? :?:

Well, I just recieved some very interesting info..

Apparently there is nothing prohibiting growing anything on crown land, with the exception of noxious weeds (and presumably illegal weeds :D )

No permits required...

So, wounded, it looks like you are in crown land/food plot/deer baiting heaven!! :D

Foxer
05-03-2004, 05:02 PM
Yeah, but i still think it's not the best idea. At the very least, you should only plant those species native to the area. There's a list of 'noxious' weeds and undesirable weeds for each area on the ministry of agriculture website.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. On the other hand, i've learned that the vast majority of 'deer feeds' that can be cultivated easily enough to make it feasable rarely last more than 3 seasons before they're dead or used up so to speak. And you need a hell of a lot of the stuff to make any meaningfull difference, a few lbs won't do much.

Gateholio
05-03-2004, 06:13 PM
Yeah, there's lots of things that are legal but a poor idea- :D

I would imagine you would need to do something similar to small scale farming to truley make a real impact, and really, who wants to put that much effort into building up that area if you have no control of it. :D

phoenix
04-18-2006, 12:48 PM
Hi All,
Well I must say this has been an interesting read. I just bought 11.6 acres here in Kelowna and I have just cleared about a 1/4 acre to use as a food plot. I am trying to find a supplier of Bishops Seeds here in the Okanagan, if anyone knows of one please post their name as Bishops has not been answering my e-mails and I want to get things going.
As to some of the questions brought up here it is in fact totally legal to plant food for wildlife (according to local F&W biologist) and in my opinion totally ethical also. If it is unethical to hunt deer when they come to or leave a feeding area, and deer when they are not sleeping are always feeding, when and how do you hunt them?
Kim

Archive
04-19-2006, 12:16 PM
Country feed and sales has a 85lb mixed bag (heather, clover, misc grains . . .) supposed to do 12-15 acres, salt licks were $6 a block last year.

Country Feeds (http://canada411.yellowpages.ca/mp/BC/YARROW/Country%2BFeeds/604/8561611/25236%2BFraser%2BHighway/Aldergrove/V4W1Z8/0/1/0000000000001860460053820007.html)
604-856-1611
25236 Fraser Highway,
Aldergrove, BC V4W 1Z8
http://img.yellowpages.ca/cobrandImageSever/canada411/images/spacer.gif

Its funny how ppl will argue to enforce their thoughts about right or wrong but the last question always is, "where did you put it?"

Foxer
04-19-2006, 01:26 PM
Holy smokes!!! :) SOMEONE'S been going thru the archives. :)

Remember Phoneix that this discussion was mostly about crown land. Amusingly, there's MORE restrictions as to what you can do on your OWN land than you can on crown.

Doube check to make sure the regs haven't changed since 2004 when we talked about this above, and make sure there's no regs covering your own land that would apply - i never looked into that TOO much at the time and what i did read was 2 years ago.

timber
04-23-2006, 11:20 AM
I just got 360 akers in pg so what is the best seeds for deer and moose, plots,

Walksalot
04-24-2006, 06:16 AM
Here's an interesting thought. A person who plants a food plot to attract deer may take an animal or two but the remainder of the animals which feed off the plot benefit big time. Is the person who plants a food plot giving more back in then they are taking out?

Having said that, I hunt a piece of agricultual land which has alphalfa growing on it. I will try to harvest a deer with my bow around the field but as far as rifle hunting goes I enjoy hunting them in the bush more than sitting in a field.

Fred
04-24-2006, 08:18 AM
Here's an interesting thought. A person who plants a food plot to attract deer may take an animal or two but the remainder of the animals which feed off the plot benefit big time. Is the person who plants a food plot giving more back in then they are taking out?

That is almost exactly what I did several years ago John. One of my claims(in the Canyon) had just been logged and the was zip all for the deer in that cutblock. They still traveled through it to get to the Fraser for water(for the minerals?) so we dropped 2 salt.trace minerals blocks and I scattered Timothy and Alfalfa seeds along the edge of a damp area and the creek passing by. We never hunted that land and the tracks became huge! 4 to 4 1/2 inch tracks were common. Fred

phoenix
04-25-2006, 09:10 AM
Try Bishops seeds, it is their mixes that I am going to try, Fall field of dreams, Buck Booster. I finally got some from Canadian Camo out of Ontario.
Kim

Foxer
04-25-2006, 10:46 AM
Is the person who plants a food plot giving more back in then they are taking out?

That's not a simple answer. If the plot is sufficient in size that it actually impacts the food supply to the herd, it can be a real problem if suddenly that guy doesn't own that property anymore and the new owner doesn't keep it up. The food goes away, and the population (which grew due to the abundance of food) dies horribly. Extreme example, but you see what i mean.

Likewise it can impact the number of undesirable animal/human encounters in an area if the plot is located such that it increases animal travel on a road or the like. Or brings animals into regular farmer's crops or something.

If you're planting a crop and there's a proper number of deer harvested from the area - the problem probably isn't a problem. Food goes away, herd is already at a 'normal' level, things adjust. But it's not a simple science. You can't make a general statement like 'food plots good' or 'food plots bad' - it's all in context.

Walksalot
04-25-2006, 12:14 PM
[
quote=Foxer]That's not a simple answer. If the plot is sufficient in size that it actually impacts the food supply to the herd, it can be a real problem if suddenly that guy doesn't own that property anymore and the new owner doesn't keep it up. The food goes away, and the population (which grew due to the abundance of food) dies horribly. Extreme example, but you see what i mean.

Ranchers change crops at times and the animals go elsware or they starve. I hunted a field which the rancher grew alphalfa and the hunting was termendous. One year the rancher changed the crop and the animals dissapeared. If there was a huge die off there would have been dead deer but to my knowledge non were found.



Likewise it can impact the number of undesirable animal/human encounters in an area if the plot is located such that it increases animal travel on a road or the like. Or brings animals into regular farmer's crops or something.


If you are doing this on crown land then yes you run the risk of another hunter finding your plot. On private land it is a different story, trespassers can be charged.



If you're planting a crop and there's a proper number of deer harvested from the area - the problem probably isn't a problem. Food goes away, herd is already at a 'normal' level, things adjust. But it's not a simple science. You can't make a general statement like 'food plots good' or 'food plots bad' - it's all in context.
[/QUOTE]

See first reply.

Foxer
04-26-2006, 01:12 PM
Ranchers change crops at times and the animals go elsware or they starve. I hunted a field which the rancher grew alphalfa and the hunting was termendous. One year the rancher changed the crop and the animals dissapeared. If there was a huge die off there would have been dead deer but to my knowledge non were found.

In a ranch setting there may be another ranch or farm nearby with a good food supply. Or they died and you didn't hear about it.

OR maybe not. :) The point was it's not a cut-and-dry answer to the question 'isn't he giving back more than he's taking'.



If you are doing this on crown land then yes you run the risk of another hunter finding your plot. On private land it is a different story, trespassers can be charged.

I think you missed what i was saying - i wasn't talking about another hunter, but more along the lines of if you plant in a spot that brings deer closer to human activity, it could lead to more car strikes, deer damaging other people's property, etc etc.

Again - just demonstrating that it's not cut and dry that food plots = good.


See first reply.

Ditto :)

Game management is rarely a simple yes-no type of thing.

Mr. Dean
04-26-2006, 01:26 PM
Yup it's me and again I'm somewhat puzzled (doesn't take much).

It's seems to me that there are more than ample natural feed areas for BC's wildlife. Do we really need artificial ones? I don't see much of a difference from farming them, except these deer would be 'open range' deer. Look at the debate and gray areas regarding the game farms. ie Mad Deer Disease.

All I see is people trying to make a game harvest easier. NOT that there's anything wrong with that.....But what about the 'trickle effect'?

IMO this is taking the wild out of our wildlife. There isn't a necessary need for this, unlike the need for a cut-block or a controlled burn. Ethics, like law, are open for interpretation. I was brought up with the teachings of less is best when it comes to how we impact our wildlife/nature. I think that in the end, it would have less of an impact on the game if people did their baiting with apples and such and removed them after their harvest/kill.

This is my thinking. There is NO such thing as a 100% 'natural' seed available on the commercial market. EVERYTHING feed and food related on the commercial markets has been genetically engineered, somehow. The amount of biology that goes into growing OUR OWN veggies is mind boggling, to say the least. This is why I prefer to eat WILD game, not stuff that you find in the local Safeway store...

So PLEASE keep your food plots out of my share of the wildlife - Thanks.

huntwriter
04-26-2006, 03:26 PM
I have to agree with Mr. Dean. That whole food plot and QDM thing has grown in America to a multi million dollar business but has no or very little affect on the "quality" of the deer. In fct more hunters now are complaining about the big "rip off".

In my humble opinion it's a money maker no more, no less. There are some biologists that see atvantages in food plots and QDM, interestingly most of them work for the QDM industry or have their own small QDM consultant companies.

On another note, this whole hype about food plot and QDM has alerted the animal rights to a new trick. They now claim that hunters "grow their own trophy bucks" so they can kill them. "Growing" bigger bucks goes right in line with "harvesting" them, the hunter becomes a deer "farmer".

I.M.O. QDM and food plots are not needed for wildlife. In fact I believe of what I have seen in Europe that it will backfire and open the door for all sorts of problems with the wildlife herds, including the faster spread of CWD, due to higher and more concentrated wildlife poulations.

Walksalot
04-26-2006, 05:54 PM
[

quote=Foxer]In a ranch setting there may be another ranch or farm nearby with a good food supply. Or they died and you didn't hear about it.

OR maybe not. :) The point was it's not a cut-and-dry answer to the question 'isn't he giving back more than he's taking'.



I would have got wind of it though.:wink:





I think you missed what i was saying - i wasn't talking about another hunter, but more along the lines of if you plant in a spot that brings deer closer to human activity, it could lead to more car strikes, deer damaging other people's property, etc etc.

Again - just demonstrating that it's not cut and dry that food plots = good.


This is why there are signs saying watch for deer for the next X number of miles and if I am driving I ask the wife to watch the road as I am looking for the little buggers.



Ditto :)


:shock:
Game management is rarely a simple yes-no type of thing.[/quote]

Walksalot
04-26-2006, 05:58 PM
I have to agree with Mr. Dean. That whole food plot and QDM thing has grown in America to a multi million dollar business but has no or very little affect on the "quality" of the deer. In fct more hunters now are complaining about the big "rip off".



In my humble opinion it's a money maker no more, no less. There are some biologists that see atvantages in food plots and QDM, interestingly most of them work for the QDM industry or have their own small QDM consultant companies.

On another note, this whole hype about food plot and QDM has alerted the animal rights to a new trick. They now claim that hunters "grow their own trophy bucks" so they can kill them. "Growing" bigger bucks goes right in line with "harvesting" them, the hunter becomes a deer "farmer".

I.M.O. QDM and food plots are not needed for wildlife. In fact I believe of what I have seen in Europe that it will backfire and open the door for all sorts of problems with the wildlife herds, including the faster spread of CWD, due to higher and more concentrated wildlife poulations.


The government makes food plots all the time, they are called perscribed (sp) burns. Mother Nature is good at it also.

oldtimer
04-26-2006, 06:32 PM
Walksalot , The only problem with mother natures burns is that we have become the world leaders in putting them out.This is also one of the major reason for the far reaching affect of the pine beetle. Mike

Walksalot
04-26-2006, 06:52 PM
Walksalot , The only problem with mother natures burns is that we have become the world leaders in putting them out.This is also one of the major reason for the far reaching affect of the pine beetle. Mike


Truer words were never spoken but it gets to the point where there is so much fuel build up in the understory and in the form of dead standing wood that the results are the fires of the previous years. We may be starting to learn though.

Foxer
04-26-2006, 07:15 PM
This is why there are signs saying watch for deer for the next X number of miles and if I am driving I ask the wife to watch the road as I am looking for the little buggers.

ROFL - well that's that problem solved then :)

Hehehe - strange as it may seem, some people still manage to run into them. :) In fact, shy of man, deer are the most dangerous animals in canada as far as humans are concerned. They kill and injure more people than any other.

Now you're not going to make me post a few dozen pages of supporting evidence are ya? :)

It's not desirable to encourage more deer into areas where they're likely to have negative impact on humans (and vice versa).


Game management is rarely a simple yes-no type of thing.

Exactly.

Mr. Dean
04-26-2006, 10:44 PM
The government makes food plots all the time, they are called perscribed (sp) burns. Mother Nature is good at it also.

True.
But this is a necessity of good forestry management, NOT game management. Just so happens that it's a plus-plus for the game.
ALSO mother nature is the one that sows the field using local, natural seeds.
Not some commercial manufactured, genetic make-up diversed product.

As you point out, feed plots do exist (Just look at a farmers field). But this doesn't justify creating more. We impact our wildlife in many different ways. When is enough, enough?
Money is usually the dictator of change. Is it possible that this food plot strategy could enhance the #'s of critter visits to the land and therefore permit you to charge a high access fee to hunt it?

Forgive me. I'm just trying to see the reasoning behind this. My mind is stuck on this not doing any good for the game populations but rather a select few persons.

huntwriter
04-27-2006, 12:47 AM
Again I have to agree with Mr. Dean. A burn, man made or natural hardly can be compared with a planted food plot. Fire has been a natural source of landscaping since the beginning of times. The grasses, herbs and forbs that grow back on such places are natural. On the other hand the commercial available QDM seeds are genticaly manipulated with growth hormons, herbicides and other chemicals soley designed for one purpose to grow bigger atlers.

It's rather ludicrous, to take the American example, that on one side the wildlife management agenicies complain about exploding deer poulations. While on the other side hunters puy up, rent or lease huge blocks of land for QDM with the purpose to increase deer population.

On a side note the states threatened with CWD are also the onse with the highest QDM, baiting and feeding participation. The reason is that deer concentrate heavliy around food plots and managed land and thus the interaction between animals and transmission of illness and diseases are more likely.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 05:12 AM
[

quote=Mr. Dean]True.
But this is a necessity of good forestry management, NOT game management. Just so happens that it's a plus-plus for the game.
ALSO mother nature is the one that sows the field using local, natural seeds.
Not some commercial manufactured, genetic make-up diversed product.


I bet to differ. Fire is often used as a wildlife management tool to enhance habitat, alot of it winter range. Low elevation plants such as sianothis (sp) have its seed germinate from the intense heat of a fire. Fire was use in the Cathedral Lakes area to enhance the sheep habitat and that fire got away on them and done a good job.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 05:26 AM
Again I have to agree with Mr. Dean. A burn, man made or natural hardly can be compared with a planted food plot. Fire has been a natural source of landscaping since the beginning of times. The grasses, herbs and forbs that grow back on such places are natural. On the other hand the commercial available QDM seeds are genticaly manipulated with growth hormons, herbicides and other chemicals soley designed for one purpose to grow bigger atlers.

It's rather ludicrous, to take the American example, that on one side the wildlife management agenicies complain about exploding deer poulations. While on the other side hunters puy up, rent or lease huge blocks of land for QDM with the purpose to increase deer population.

On a side note the states threatened with CWD are also the onse with the highest QDM, baiting and feeding participation. The reason is that deer concentrate heavliy around food plots and managed land and thus the interaction between animals and transmission of illness and diseases are more likely.


Huntwriter, I was thinking of food plots as a private little corner of the world where a guy does it for his/her own use. Most people I know who own acerages away from the cities have planted crops conducive to ungulate diet. Some take an animal or two but some take none at all.

I have to agree with you on the increased numbers and spread of disease. This is why domestic animals have to be pumped full of chemicals.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 05:35 AM
[quote=Foxer]ROFL - well that's that problem solved then :)

Good

Now you're not going to make me post a few dozen pages of supporting evidence are ya? :)


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..............No




It's not desirable to encourage more deer into areas where they're likely to have negative impact on humans (and vice versa).

If you want to charge people to hunt on your land you do. That's why stores display their product, so you can see what you are buying.

huntwriter
04-27-2006, 11:41 AM
Huntwriter, I was thinking of food plots as a private little corner of the world where a guy does it for his/her own use. Most people I know who own acerages away from the cities have planted crops conducive to ungulate diet. Some take an animal or two but some take none at all.

I have to agree with you on the increased numbers and spread of disease. This is why domestic animals have to be pumped full of chemicals.
I am not against the odd small food plot or planting a shrub or two here and there .
Where I see negative effects is when QDM turns into an operation. I have seen that in America happening, where private land was gated and turned, by a few hunters, into a "managed deer farm". Just the other day I read a post on another forum where a single hunter anounced proudly; "I have just managed to close of 600 acres of private land. I paid 200 per acre lease but it's all mien now to hunt." Such land, formerly accessible to hunters by permission is now off limits to them unless they dig deep into their pockets. Some states have started to implement QDM on public land and thus reduced hunter access and deer harvested in that area.
As ususal their is a huge industry behind all that with all the adverse effects it has on real deer management. The bottom line is this; hunting has become a very expensive luxury many hunters can not afford to buy into. It has opend the door wide for the total commercialization of hunting, like in Europe, where the hunting privileges go to the highest bidder.
I guess my worry is that over the years something similar could happen here, once QDM catches on with hunters, outfitters and private land owners.

Mr. Dean
04-27-2006, 11:42 AM
[

I bet to differ. Fire is often used as a wildlife management tool to enhance habitat, alot of it winter range. Low elevation plants such as sianothis (sp) have its seed germinate from the intense heat of a fire. Fire was use in the Cathedral Lakes area to enhance the sheep habitat and that fire got away on them and done a good job.

You could very well be right. But in a case such as this, everything would have been performed in the best interest of the species, or so it would seem. This would've also been done with the approval from an elected governing body backed with TONS of background and ongoing science/biological assessments (read: watchdogs). it would also have been a 'Group Hug' type of project that involved the general public. Hunters, conservationists AND taxpayers alike. EVERYONE had and has a say in these type of endeavors.

Does anyone have an idea of how much money was spent BEFORE the seeds were scattered and/or the match was LIT?



If you want to charge people to hunt on your land you do. That's why stores display their product, so you can see what you are buying.

- BC's wildlife isn't a "product" for one person to do what he may with. It belongs to everyone. Everyone is allowed to have a say/vote on it's intended uses.
- Exploitation is the fist word that comes to mind with this scenario. Followed by fairchase and ethical.
- BC's Guides have an extremely government regulated industry.
- It would appear that this could be an underground type of guiding industry that would have NO 'watchdog' NO 'red tape' and NO 'hula-hoops' to jump through.
- BUT could very well be a legal practice.
- The American way would pretty much sum it up.
- I for one would never subscribe for this type of 'service'.
- Scary sh*t! IMO.

Damn good thread BTW!

huntwriter
04-27-2006, 12:10 PM
- BC's wildlife isn't a "product" for one person to do what he may with. It belongs to everyone.

Damn good thread BTW!

This is a very good point and exactly what I fear and have seen south of the border, where wildlife has become "private property" sold to the highest bidder. The excuse is that QDM management is expesieve and thus hunters wanting to hunt on such properties have to dig deep. One of the worst examples of this kind can be found in Texas where land access is next to impossible for the average hunter. I am sure our Texan friend, Tmarshall, could tell us more about this "wildlife privatization".

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 12:21 PM
I am not against the odd small food plot or planting a shrub or two here and there .
Where I see negative effects is when QDM turns into an operation. I have seen that in America happening, where private land was gated and turned, by a few hunters, into a "managed deer farm". Just the other day I read a post on another forum where a single hunter anounced proudly; "I have just managed to close of 600 acres of private land. I paid 200 per acre lease but it's all mien now to hunt." Such land, formerly accessible to hunters by permission is now off limits to them unless they dig deep into their pockets. Some states have started to implement QDM on public land and thus reduced hunter access and deer harvested in that area.
As ususal their is a huge industry behind all that with all the adverse effects it has on real deer management. The bottom line is this; hunting has become a very expensive luxury many hunters can not afford to buy into. It has opend the door wide for the total commercialization of hunting, like in Europe, where the hunting privileges go to the highest bidder.
I guess my worry is that over the years something similar could happen here, once QDM catches on with hunters, outfitters and private land owners.

What I see happening in British Columbia and the rest of Canada are more and more land owners charging people to hunt on their property. I think this stems from a resentment of the way farmers are treated in Canada. They are froze to the land, forced to compete with cheap imports and on top of that the govenment of the day doesn't have to backbone to stand up to other countries. They also have the governments animals feeding on their property with very little compensation and now should let hunters on their property to hunt for free. Alot or farmers and ranchers are in survival mode and are trying to make a buck any way they can.

Mr. Dean
04-27-2006, 01:43 PM
What I see happening in British Columbia and the rest of Canada are more and more land owners charging people to hunt on their property. I think this stems from a resentment of the way farmers are treated in Canada. They are froze to the land, forced to compete with cheap imports and on top of that the govenment of the day doesn't have to backbone to stand up to other countries. They also have the governments animals feeding on their property with very little compensation and now should let hunters on their property to hunt for free. Alot or farmers and ranchers are in survival mode and are trying to make a buck any way they can.
Point taken.
But then again this is an incidental. On farmed lands the crop is intended for human consumption. It's purpose of being there isn't for the sole reason of attracting game animals. Unlike the type of food plot you purpose where it is intended to attract the game.

There was a thread started on this very subject early winter sometime (?). It contained some excellent material.

Anyways, two very different situations. If I read all the posts correctly.

****EDIT****
I just did a search for that thread and came up empty handed.
It may have been on a nother site.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 01:48 PM
Point taken.
But then again this is an incidental. On farmed lands the crop is intended for human consumption. It's purpose of being there isn't for the sole reason of attracting game animals. Unlike the type of food plot you purpose where it is intended to attract the game.

There was a thread started on this very subject early winter sometime (?). It contained some excellent material.

Anyways, two very different situations. If I read all the posts correctly.


Right you are, hijack squashed :wink: .

Foxer
04-27-2006, 02:26 PM
It's not desirable to encourage more deer into areas where they're likely to have negative impact on humans (and vice versa).

If you want to charge people to hunt on your land you do. That's why stores display their product, so you can see what you are buying.

Oh i'm not saying there's times when it's NOT a good idea to plant a plot - i'm just saying that it's not ALWAYS a good idea - remember this started off with the question about it being a 'good' thing or not. I simply answered 'not always'. It's not black and white - it can be a good thing, or it can be a bad thing. It all depends.

Foxer
04-27-2006, 02:27 PM
Right you are, hijack squashed

(well - in fairness seeing as the thread was started in 2004, we DID manage to stay on track for 2 years :) that's not bad... )

huntwriter
04-27-2006, 02:37 PM
What I see happening in British Columbia and the rest of Canada are more and more land owners charging people to hunt on their property. I think this stems from a resentment of the way farmers are treated in Canada. They are froze to the land, forced to compete with cheap imports and on top of that the govenment of the day doesn't have to backbone to stand up to other countries. They also have the governments animals feeding on their property with very little compensation and now should let hunters on their property to hunt for free. Alot or farmers and ranchers are in survival mode and are trying to make a buck any way they can.
I understand your point only to well about the farmers. In my life and butcher profession I have been closely involved to farmers and farming. Unfortunately what you say about the B.C. farmers has become a sad fact all over the world.

In my post I am not talking about a trespass fee. I am talking about some farmers/ranchers that lease their QDM land to hunters for hundreds of dollar per acre. I know of farmers (not here in B.C.) that only keep a few head of cattle to justfy the farm status but make a fortune on leasing land to hunters year round.

Paying the farmer to drive trough his land and hang treestands and so on I have no problem with as long the amount of money does not border on the ridiculous. Like the farmer who wanted 1000 dollar from me just to step on his land and then some more if I kill a deer. in fact I conceder that close to a outfitting business.

In the past I had never big problems with land access and found that one hand washes the other can go a long way. Often I will share my deer with the farmer and if my freezer is full I let him have the whole deer, all nicely cut and wrapped. There are also other ways I pay my respect to the farmer by helping him getting hay in or trim the cattle's feet and do other chores around the farm then and when. In areas where farmers have a problem with coyotes I will offer them to thin out the poulation in the winter. There are many things a hunter can gain a farmers/ranchers good will and gain access to land without spending big bucks.

Offroad
04-27-2006, 02:37 PM
The differance between texas and here is the amount of public land. A very small portion of B.C. is privately owned so I don't think acess will be as big of issue here. There will allways be a road you take to get in the bush. If someone owns the land you want to hunt on and they want some cash. So be it that is their right as it is thier land.

Now has anyone found a good growing clover and know where I could buy some.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 04:09 PM
Some outfitters have food plots around their residence so when clients first arrive they see all these animals in the outfitters field and go off in their pants.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 04:24 PM
Does anyone have an idea of how much money was spent BEFORE the seeds were scattered and/or the match was LIT?

Without a dought this is true. By the time the habitat biologist jumps through all the hoops it is a nightmare. Everyone has their own territory and needs to have input whether that input holds any credability or not. If a person was to go through the correct channels to initiate a food plot the paper work would be a nightmare. I helped a person seed a food plot and did it with no feelings of remorse or hesitation for this person is an environmentalist and a hunter exrtaordinaire. He will regulate and he will manage the wildlife which frequents his food plot with the care and devotion a mother does her child.

Ron.C
04-27-2006, 05:40 PM
"Bait - means anything, including meat,
cereals, cultivated crops, restrained animal
or any manufactured product or material,
that may attract wildlife and includes plastic
or other imitation foods, but does not
include a decoy as described under these
regulations."

"bear may not be hunted by placing bait or by using a
dead animal or part of it as bait"

These are the only references to baiting I could find in the regs with exception of the trapping section where you can bait bear. In my opinion though, I do believe it is illegal to bait deer, or why else would they have made the distinction between bait and decoy in the definition? Just my opinion.

Walksalot
04-27-2006, 06:09 PM
Ron C. you bring up some interesting points but I think we have established that baiting deer is legal. On a lark I phoned the C.O. and was told it was legal.

I think the decoys pertain to hunting magratory birds but I don't own a shotgun so what do I know.:icon_frow

P.S.
Type bigger, I have nostrel marks on the monitor.

Foxer
04-27-2006, 07:44 PM
I do believe it is illegal to bait deer,

100 percent legal to bait deer, always has been. Put a salt lick out if you want.

A lot of people think it's illegal tho.

The distiction is for other animals. you can decoy ducks but not bait them for example.

The 'Hummer'
04-27-2006, 09:21 PM
A while back, after searching through the regs and not finding a ruling on baiting Deer, I called Victoria.:?: Close to a farm, about 200M's from my archery treestand, there is a handy apple tree and as 'moving' some of the apples to a better location constitutes baiting, I thought I'd better find out first.:idea: The individual I talked to couldn't quickly find any reference to it so he said he'd search & get back to me. He called the next day & said baiting for Bear & migratory birds was illegal but could find no stipulation on my question of Deer or Wolves. In case I was stopped or questioned by a CO, he gave me his name & local ph. #. Good enough for me.:grin:

Foxer
04-27-2006, 09:31 PM
but could find no stipulation on my question of Deer or Wolves.

That's right - BUT...

There is a stipulation for wolves and other 'dangerous game'. You cannot FEED wolves or other predators (see the regs for no feed lists).

IF YOU LEAVE your bait unattended for such animals, then you are guilty of FEEDING dangerous animals and you've got a very ugly fine.

So yes, you can bait for wolves or predators, but you must not leave your bait unattended (excludes scent only and non-edible baits obviously). I've been assured by the co's they will charge for that.

The 'Hummer'
04-28-2006, 10:30 AM
Good point. With a bow, from a treestand, the right bait, a call and get a wolf?? :wink: That would be something!!:grin: Thanks again for the clarification.

Foxer
04-28-2006, 10:52 AM
With a bow, from a treestand, the right bait, a call and get a wolf?? images/smilies/wink.gif That would be something!!

That would be something and a half :)

Now that we can use electronic calls for some predators (which means the call doesn't have to be right where you are) you might just manage to pull that off. I think you'd have to be a pretty darn good bowhunter tho... maybe start with yotes and work your way up.

Gateholio
04-28-2006, 11:09 AM
"
These are the only references to baiting I could find in the regs with exception of the trapping section where you can bait bear. In my opinion though, I do believe it is illegal to bait deer, or why else would they have made the distinction between bait and decoy in the definition? Just my opinion.

You haven't been paying attention....Baiting deer is legal in BC. You can bait moose for that matter, or sheep.

The 'Hummer'
04-28-2006, 01:15 PM
That would be something and a half :)

Now that we can use electronic calls for some predators (which means the call doesn't have to be right where you are) you might just manage to pull that off. I think you'd have to be a pretty darn good bowhunter tho... maybe start with yotes and work your way up.

That's one drawback on 'The' island, no yotes. Having to be 'a darn good bowhunter' is putting it mildly. I've got a long ways to go, but, in this area of the island, there are a fair number of wolves around. As a result, not many Deer once you get away from the populated areas. The only Deer I see are around town or the farms. Trying for one helps expand my hunting season & occupy my retirement time.:grin:

Foxer
04-28-2006, 02:05 PM
I think you'd get exactly one shot at it hummer, then those wolves would be wise to you and you'd have to go elsewhere. But man - a big ole wolf rug or skull taken with a bow suckering them in like that... that'd be an accomplishment. I don't think i've heard of anyone talking or tricking a wolf to come within 40 yards on purpose without being busted. Maybe somewhere they're used to humans a bit.

The 'Hummer'
04-28-2006, 07:49 PM
It may take a while but time available I have. If / when sucessful, I'll give you a shout.

Foxer
04-28-2006, 08:24 PM
Post pics, and good luck!

Mr. Dean
04-29-2006, 10:08 PM
I helped a person seed a food plot and did it with no feelings of remorse or hesitation for this person is an environmentalist and a hunter exrtaordinaire. He will regulate and he will manage the wildlife which frequents his food plot with the care and devotion a mother does her child.

I sure hope so.
But what would we do about the unfit mothers. As we all know, it's TO LATE by the time we learn of them (the damage is already done).

Foxer
04-29-2006, 10:28 PM
But what would we do about the unfit mothers. As we all know, it's TO LATE by the time we learn of them (the damage is already done).

I'm sorry - i got distracted and a little confused.... are you for or against planting unwed mothers?

Mr. Dean
05-03-2006, 05:21 PM
I'm sorry - i got distracted and a little confused.... are you for or against planting unwed mothers?
NO........yes.......Maybe???

CRAP!
I'm confused also. Might be time to let er die......

Walksalot
05-03-2006, 05:33 PM
NO........yes.......Maybe???

CRAP!
I'm confused also. Might be time to let er die......


Sweet Jesus, I think this is population control.:eek: