PDA

View Full Version : Detune Excalibur



mikeinajeep
01-28-2010, 12:01 AM
Excalibur emailed me today about detuning my crossbow. It turns out that ALL excalibur limbs are the same and it is the stroke that makes the power numbers change. So I can't turn down the power to use it at 3D shoots. I guess bigger is not always better. I am thinking really really heavy arrows to come in under the speed rules, maybe fill one with with lead if they want to test the speed of my crossbow. Would that be wrong?? :twisted:

peterrum3
01-28-2010, 06:46 AM
Where are they wanting a speed limit on crossbows. I haven't heard of that. We are having our shoot in a month and there is no speed restriction. If you have to do it, you are probably headed in the right direction by adding weight to the bolt, but you might have to shoot a piece of rebar to get it really slow:-D

358win
01-28-2010, 09:15 AM
You could pick up a pro slider by 10 point for that.

willyqbc
01-28-2010, 09:27 AM
3D rules state an arrow must be going less than 280 fps OR the arrow must weigh no less than 5 grains per pound of draw weight. So I'm guessing that unless his arrow is 750 grains on a 150 pound pull it would not be considered legal. You can get special rope to slide into the shaft to add weight and for some arrows you can get shaft length inserts to help bring your weight up to legal. Another option is to cut and slide a standard size shaft into the bolt....or whatever size fits snugly.

Chris

mikeinajeep
01-28-2010, 09:48 AM
LOL 150 lbs pull, girl crossbow! This is the problem my X-bow is alot bigger than that. I tried to detune it to that and that seems impossible, so now I need 1125 grain arrows.(5X225=1125) The Fps max at the Abby 3D is 350 and I am closer to 400 with the fire bolt arrows it comes with. Maybe rebar would work.

Bowzone_Mikey
01-28-2010, 11:47 AM
something doesnt jive right with me ... not that I am the least bit interested in crossbows but why are the standard bow rules being applied to crossbows ... a crossbow is not a bow ...(in this sense of the word regaurding performance...so settle down )

since the FCA does not have a cross bow rule nor does it reconize crossbows as archery equipment, I took the liberty to peruse the IBO compition Crossbow rules



11. Crossbow (X-BOW)
Crossbows must be standard production crossbows, however, minor modifications such as butt plates, strings, and the like shall be permitted as long as such modifications do not void the manufacturer's warranty or diminish designed safety standards. No Hooked Butts, Palm Rests, or extra equipment used for bracing will be allowed. (see Section IV, A, 8) Bolts must be no less than 20/64ths in diameter and measure no shorter than 14 inches. All bolts must be identical in type and size and point weight. Bolts must use at least three (3) vanes or feathers and screw in field points. Crossbows shooting up to and including 300 fps must shoot bolts weighing no less than 400 grains. Crossbows shooting 301 to 325 fps must shoot bolts weighing no less than 425 grains. Crossbows shooting more than 325 fps must shoot bolts weighing no less than 450 grain. Any type of sight may be used. Any archer using a variable power scope shall be responsible to tape or otherwise secure the adjustment setting to create a fixed magnification, prior to beginning competition. X-BOW archers will shoot from the green stake.
Crossbows must be in sound condition with a working safety. The crossbow shall not be cocked until the archer is at the stake and preparing to shoot. The safety must remain on until the archer is ready to shoot. The crossbow must be loaded while in a downward position and pointed in the direction of the target. No crossbow may be loaded while pointing up.

here is the link to the whole IBO rule book .... for crossbows you might want section 5 chapter 11
http://www.ibo.net/pdf/2010%20IBO%20RULES.pdf

My humble opinion ... is you cannot expect a crossbow to follow the rules set forth for compound bows ...simply because they are not one and the same .... to do so is simply assinine the IBO rules stated above are IMHO again .. fair and easily obtainable and most of all allows more people to have fun at 3D archery

Mike

willyqbc
01-28-2010, 03:33 PM
my understanding is that just recently x-bows became recognized by the FCA. From what i can gather they are now covered by the insurance covered with BCAA memberships, I doubt that would be the case unless they had been officially recognized by the National governing body. I'll check it for sure and get back on this but I'm pretty sure they are recognized now.

Chris

Grantmac
01-28-2010, 04:46 PM
If your despirate you can always add string weight. Maybe even get another string made with the additional weight in the form of more strands/serving/silencers. Then you can use your regular string for hunting, and keep your speed down for 3D.
Just an out of the box suggestion. Its a lot easier to take the speed off then put it on!

-Grant

Bow Walker
01-28-2010, 06:05 PM
something doesnt jive right with me ... not that I am the least bit interested in crossbows but why are the standard bow rules being applied to crossbows ... a crossbow is not a bow ...(in this sense of the word regaurding performance...so settle down )

since the FCA does not have a cross bow rule nor does it reconize crossbows as archery equipment, I took the liberty to peruse the IBO compition Crossbow rules



here is the link to the whole IBO rule book .... for crossbows you might want section 5 chapter 11
http://www.ibo.net/pdf/2010%20IBO%20RULES.pdf

My humble opinion ... is you cannot expect a crossbow to follow the rules set forth for compound bows ...simply because they are not one and the same .... to do so is simply assinine the IBO rules stated above are IMHO again .. fair and easily obtainable and most of all allows more people to have fun at 3D archery

Mike



I agree Mike - somewhat. Crossbows are (IMO) definitely "archery" equipment. BUT. They are also definitely in a different class than compound bows, and as such should have their own sub-section in the rules. Which, apparently they do. So all is good. Now I'm "settled down".:wink:

mikeinajeep
01-28-2010, 06:38 PM
I know this is going to start a fight but we all need to get mad once in while. I am telling wife wife about this thread over dinner and she says "is it really about speeds and weights or or is it X-bow will win alot because they are more accurate?" Fighting words I know but it makes you think.

Grantmac
01-28-2010, 07:22 PM
I know this is going to start a fight but we all need to get mad once in while. I am telling wife wife about this thread over dinner and she says "is it really about speeds and weights or or is it X-bow will win alot because they are more accurate?" Fighting words I know but it makes you think.

Your only competing against other X-bows, so I don't see why you would care what your accuracy is compared to the compounds.

The only reason I see for them to limit speeds is to prevent target damage. To that end you would think that getting you to shoot heavier arrows would be counter productive.

-Grant

Bowzone_Mikey
01-28-2010, 09:42 PM
my understanding is that just recently x-bows became recognized by the FCA. From what i can gather they are now covered by the insurance covered with BCAA memberships, I doubt that would be the case unless they had been officially recognized by the National governing body. I'll check it for sure and get back on this but I'm pretty sure they are recognized now.

Chris

I do beleive you are right Chris in respect to the FCA reconizing them ... for the 2010 set

mikeinajeep
01-28-2010, 10:49 PM
My arrows go in deeper but don't make bigger holes in the targets, so I don't know if that is it.

triggr31
01-29-2010, 12:18 AM
who the hell said this that would mean you need a 1100 grain arrow give me a break!!!!!!!!!

mikeinajeep
01-29-2010, 03:16 PM
Triggr31 I agree that it is a silly number but it is the number! The rule is 5 grains per pound of draw. 5X225=1125 grains. That is the whole point of this tread, to find away to shoot my X-bow at 3D shoots. I got the excalibur because more or less everything I read and everyone I talked to said it was the best hunting X-bow in the world bar none. The only thing is I want to go shoot 3D to meet like minded people and learn to be a better shooter/hunter, and the excalibur seems to be to powerfull for that kind of shooting.

Bow Walker
01-29-2010, 06:30 PM
I know this is going to start a fight but we all need to get mad once in while. I am telling wife wife about this thread over dinner and she says "is it really about speeds and weights or or is it X-bow will win alot because they are more accurate?" Fighting words I know but it makes you think.
Nope - they're not inherently more accurate than any other archery equipment.

As has been pointed out many, many times (although not politically correct) "IT'S NOT THE ARROW - IT'S THE INDIAN".

In other words it's the shooter, not the equipment. :wink:

mikeinajeep
01-29-2010, 07:38 PM
Bow walker I don't disagree completely BUT anyone who puts the cross-hairs of my X-bow on a target at 20 yards(with zero affect) will hit it everytime(or close to) that can't be said for a bow. My wife is living proof of that. I hate that now that I have typed it out. Makes it seem like X-bows are too easy.

hardnocks
01-29-2010, 08:13 PM
i think maybe you should take in a 3d shoot . unless crossbow shooters are allowed to use a rest they don`t do very good against compound shooters.

mikeinajeep
01-29-2010, 11:49 PM
LOL I was wondering when you would show up hardnocks. I use the scout sniper cross arm stance for upright shooting, I think I will be ok with out a rest. But not really the point of this thread!

Bowzone_Mikey
01-30-2010, 06:17 PM
Triggr31 I agree that it is a silly number but it is the number! The rule is 5 grains per pound of draw. 5X225=1125 grains. That is the whole point of this tread, to find away to shoot my X-bow at 3D shoots. I got the excalibur because more or less everything I read and everyone I talked to said it was the best hunting X-bow in the world bar none. The only thing is I want to go shoot 3D to meet like minded people and learn to be a better shooter/hunter, and the excalibur seems to be to powerfull for that kind of shooting.


that is a Bow rule specifically for Compound bows (the 5 GPP) was never intended for Crossbows as it was is just recently that Crossbows have come into acceptance as archery equipment in some jurisdictions (remember ... you cannot use a crossbow in archery seasons in many states and provinces in NA.

the IBO just created a Cross bow divistion a coulpe of years ago ... the FCA had a trial crossbow division at Nationals 2 years ago in Dauphin Manitoba ... I posted the IBO crossbow rules a few posts back ... the CDN FCA rules should be almost word for word to that effect as thats the typical stance of the FCA when it comes to 3D ...is to Follow suit with the IBO

as for the inheiritly accurate ....BW I am sorry .. you are wrong ... it is the equipment ....but still they are no more accurate than a compound bow ... you just have to do more tuning to the shooter with a compound bow, set peep height, proper draw lenth, anchor points etc ....X-Bow ...there is none of that except for setting up the scope ... even if its held differantly from person to person .. once the scope is set .. the hairs are on target .. you will hit that target ..not so with a compound bow .. across bow is very genaric while a compound bow is very personal (when it comes to setting up). end of the day ..

Mike has had his crossbow for what .. a couple of months and is pounding the x-ring ... One of the Best compound shooters in the world (Jesse Broadwater) has been at it for well over 15 years shoots over 500 arrows a day (because he can and is paid to do so) cant shoot more than 9 xs in a row at Vegas shoot off. One of the Best 3D shooters in North America (Micheal Brayden) has been at it for over 20 years ... and cant hit the 14 ring every shot.... Its not that they are accurate .... its that they are easy ... My first expiriance with a crossbow I shot a Vegas 300 round in my driveway from 18 meters ... I scored a 300 22X ... the very first time I picked one up, Because i know how to shoot a rifle accuratly (ie: stance, breathing etc...) .... the best I have ever shot with a compound is a 300 14X after almost 10 years of shooting .. and that was just a couple years ago

greybark
01-30-2010, 09:08 PM
i think maybe you should take in a 3d shoot . unless crossbow shooters are allowed to use a rest they don`t do very good against compound shooters.

:wink: They don`t do well against the coumpounders because 90% of a 3-d shot is distance estimation and 10% execution of form. lots (file://\\lots) of Modern archers are very good judging distance due to lots of dedecated practice and attendance of 3-d venues . Years ago i did a 3-d round with a crossbower and he only deadly when I provided the distance .

hardnocks
01-30-2010, 11:13 PM
What shoot have you been turned away from mike ? the only shoots i have been to that use fca rules were the bc champs. most local shoots have no speed rules or give a rats ass what speed you shoot. shoots in the ok valley have made crossbows welcome for about the last 5 years.
not that it makes a difference we very seldom see one.

mikeinajeep
01-30-2010, 11:26 PM
I was turned away just two weeks ago at the Abby 3d shoot. I talked to one of the people helping run it and he said I would be able to shoot at some of there shoots this year if I could slower down.

hardnocks
01-30-2010, 11:38 PM
we had a shoot last weekend had a excalibar shooter. also had a `guy shooting an 80 lb bowtec with a 32 in draw. i don`t really see the difference. come up to the interior we will let you shoot.

mikeinajeep
01-30-2010, 11:44 PM
I was reading somewhere about a rinehart shoot up there I would like to come to. Depends on time and money, like everything else.

hardnocks
01-30-2010, 11:56 PM
or you could try the logan lake shoot . Its a good shoot and i am sure they would let crossbows in.

Bow Walker
01-31-2010, 12:20 AM
Mike, I agree with you when you say that a crossbow in the hands of an experienced shooter is very accurate.

But, as greybark put it so well, the shot execution is 90% yardage estimation, and 10% shooting skill. :)

So I stand by my statement. :wink:


as for the inheiritly accurate ....BW I am sorry .. you are wrong ... it is the equipment ....but still they are no more accurate than a compound bow ... you just have to do more tuning to the shooter with a compound bow, set peep height, proper draw lenth, anchor points etc ....X-Bow ...there is none of that except for setting up the scope ... even if its held differantly from person to person .. once the scope is set .. the hairs are on target .. you will hit that target ..not so with a compound bow .. across bow is very genaric while a compound bow is very personal (when it comes to setting up). end of the day ..

mikeinajeep
02-05-2010, 05:26 PM
Do they not allow range finders at these shoots? I find it to be a big part of my shooting, both target and hunting. I have a mid-price-range finder and use it to glass with it on scan and find it makes everything go very smooth. I know yard estimation was a big part of old school bow hunting but as for ranging 30-50 yards I would not feel comfortable hunting that far out with out my finder. Laze-shoot-eat!!

Bow Walker
02-05-2010, 09:39 PM
Usually there is only one (maybe two) shoots per year when range finders are allowed. They are classed as "Fun Shoots" and most times there is no "official" scoring done.

If you range the target at a regular 3D shoot - not even a sanctioned one - your score wil not be allowed to count for either prizes or ribbons.

mikeinajeep
02-06-2010, 12:28 AM
I love old school!!!

hardnocks
02-07-2010, 06:09 PM
Do they not allow range finders at these shoots? I find it to be a big part of my shooting, both target and hunting. I have a mid-price-range finder and use it to glass with it on scan and find it makes everything go very smooth. I know yard estimation was a big part of old school bow hunting but as for ranging 30-50 yards I would not feel comfortable hunting that far out with out my finder. Laze-shoot-eat!!
if you have to range animals to shoot it will be more like

laze -no shot-tag soup...rangeing takes to much time and to much movement

Ambush
02-07-2010, 06:35 PM
laze -no shot-tag soup...rangeing takes to much time and to much movement
Totaly, 100% disagree with you there. Live animals deserve a lethal shot. Using a range finder on shots more than 25 yards will make that much more probable.
So many things can make an animal look closer or farther away. Across a creek or gully, a bit of fog or snow, even body size.
Many archers can make a forty yard shot easily, IF they know it's forty. But if they guess forty and it's thirty-five or forty-five instead, then there may well be a wounded, non-recovered animal.

You may have the skill to accurately estimate distances out to fifty or sixty yards, but I'll wager that most don't.

Is it really fair to tell someone that they have to practice judging yardage for years, before they can hunt?
It's fun and educational on the range, but, IMO, not advisable in the field.
Use a range-finder.

Bowzone_Mikey
02-07-2010, 07:41 PM
I totally agree Ambush ... I missed a shot on a grouse this year ... If I had ranged him I would know that he was 45 yrds ... I jacked him for 35 (evidently he was a big P&Y Grouse) ... Both the guy I was with (who is really good at yardage I have thought over the years ) and I thought him to be about 35 or so ...untill he picked up my laser ..and tagged him at 45


You all can figure the result of that ... My grouse tag that day was unfilled
;)

hardnocks
02-07-2010, 08:05 PM
then we will disagree. try rangeing a blacktail or better yet a turkey and get a shot. judgeing distance is just part of the whole bowhunting package.

Bowzone_Mikey
02-07-2010, 08:39 PM
then we will disagree. try rangeing a blacktail or better yet a turkey and get a shot. judgeing distance is just part of the whole bowhunting package.

That is why you laser landmarks while you are set up in your blind waiting for that turkey or Blacktail to come in .... so you dont have to at the moment of truth

hardnocks
02-07-2010, 08:51 PM
ha ha but it all comes back to . 3d is practice not only for shooting but most importantly range estimation.

Bowzone_Mikey
02-07-2010, 09:04 PM
ha ha but it all comes back to . 3d is practice not only for shooting but most importantly range estimation.
absolutly ... I agree .... but what Ambush and I are saying is ... we owe it to the critters to get the best shot possible .... I know that you have miss judged a 3d target a time or 2 and shot it for a nickle .... if you havent ..either you havent shot many 3ds or you are the best in the world ...and why the hell are you working for a livin then ...

hardnocks
02-07-2010, 09:45 PM
but this all got started by mikeinajeep wanting to use a range finder at a 3d shoot.

my comment was on lazer-shoot -eat. if you want to hunt like that you will eat a lot of tag soup. do i use a range finder... you bet.. but i also practice distance because it isn`t easy for me.

mikeinajeep
02-07-2010, 11:54 PM
Ah hardnocks always glad to hear from you. My range finder is 2 inches above my scope and on scan. takes 2-4 seconds to get a reading. I really want to be better at eyeballing ranges but not when hunting. I think Ambush maybe the only one on here who thinks like me. Use the tools for the job at hand. I don't use a knife to open paint cans and I don't guess when killing something. If Bowzone can be off by 10 yards I would hate to see how far off us new to archery guys can be off. Even at 10 yards I could miss the sweet spot and I don't spend tons of time and money to miss. I spenT 4 hours at my range today torn over maybe one more click down, 4 hours over 1/2 an inch mean I want perfect.

mikeinajeep
02-08-2010, 03:47 AM
http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/catalog/crossbow/range_finder_mount

Check it out, I like it alot!!!

hardnocks
02-08-2010, 07:48 AM
i guess each to his own mike . all the gadgets sure compicate live.:-D you might think of putting on a wind gauge maybe radar. then you wouldn`t acually have to see the animal. that would be to old school.

mikeinajeep
02-08-2010, 10:15 AM
Radar would be good!!! Hardnocks how many cubits are there in a rod? I know new is bad but really.

threedhunter
02-24-2010, 03:31 AM
just a quick note, most clubs in the okanagan allow /encourage xbows at their 3d shoots. you shoot in your own class, no rangefinders allowed. this evens the playing field and means anyone can have fun. not all clubs have ribbons or prizes. just a day with people of like interest playing outdoors.