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CanAm500
01-30-2006, 09:33 PM
Dad just ordered another shotgun. This one is coming from Wholesports in Calgary. We were trap shooting and me and my dad both decided that we do alot beter with the 12 gauge then the 20 gauge (no big surprise).

We decided on the Mossberg 835 in 12 gauge. This is going to be out primary hunting shotgun, as the one before was a 20 gauge nova pump (benilli). So hopefully it will be in Friday8-)

REDGREEN
01-31-2006, 08:33 AM
Good idea on the 12 guage. Never had much use for a 20 guage after seeing its performance on a couple of hares by our henhouse years ago. 12 guage would have stopped them now. They went under it.

PGKris
02-01-2006, 12:40 PM
How does a 20 ga. do for grouse and/or ducks? I'm flip flopping between getting the .410 or the 20 ga in 870 wingmaster. I know it's big enough for grouse but if I switch to a 30" barrel and shoot 3" shells will I have enough juice for ducks?

Marc
02-01-2006, 12:57 PM
You'd be better off with a 12 gauge for ducks. With the introduction of steel shot you pretty much have to go to bigger size shot in steel. In my opinion it just doesn't have enough range and penetration for ducks. The 20 gauge is a great grouse/hare gun but very limited for ducks if you plan on using steel shot.

PGKris
02-01-2006, 03:14 PM
Enough range? Even with the 30" barrel? I'm not much of a duck hunter anyway. Love my chickens though.

guntech
02-01-2006, 03:27 PM
There is no difference between a 12 and 20 gauge in how far they shoot (if all other things being equal) ....

The difference is it is easier to hit with 12 gauge pattern. It has a better shot string and spread. It does not hit any harder or shoot farther. It does kill better in the hands of most shooters.

Marc
02-01-2006, 06:22 PM
There is no difference between a 12 and 20 gauge in how far they shoot (if all other things being equal) ....

The difference is it is easier to hit with 12 gauge pattern. It has a better shot string and spread. It does not hit any harder or shoot farther. It does kill better in the hands of most shooters.

What I was getting at guntech is in order to penetrate and kill with Steel shot you have to speed it up and increase the pellet size. In order to speed things up there has to be a give and take. If you speed it up you have to go with a lighter payload(less shot) The 20 gauge just doesn't have the payload capasity if you're speeding it up compared to a 12 gauge. To hunt with Steel shot they use thicker wads to protect the barrel decreasing the payload area as well.

Like I said before the 20 gauge is a nice upland game shotgun but I'd never buy one for the purpose of hunting ducks and geese unless you're willing to pay big coin to use "bismouth" or "heavy shot" lead alternatives and trust me they are pricy costing anywhere from $1 to $6 per shell depending where you buy them.

Marc.

CanAm500
02-01-2006, 07:01 PM
The difference is it is easier to hit with 12 gauge pattern. It has a better shot string and spread. It does not hit any harder or shoot farther. It does kill better in the hands of most shooters.

That is very true. If you try trap shooting with a 20 gauge it is harder to hit the clays, even at 16 yards.

But on the other hand, like Marc said the 20 gauge is a excellent shotgun for grouse hunting.

PGKris
02-01-2006, 08:07 PM
So the 20 is great for grouse (little overkill IMO) but if I can shoot it well enough I can do ducks? I can shoot. Don't worry bout that.

Marc
02-01-2006, 08:54 PM
A 20 gauge is a great grouse gun on the wing in my opinion. As far as hunting ducks it has nothing to do with you not being a good shot it's more to do with putting enough pellets into the bird. Steel shot #2 and bigger just doesn't patter very well out of the 20 gauge and the pellet count in my opinion is just to low. Plus steel shot for the 20 gauges is most times more expensive then it is for a 12 gauge.

Here is an example between a 20 gauge compared to a 12 gauge. The fastest load I could find with the 20 gauges was 1350 fps. With a payload of 7/8 oz of shot. That's a 3-inch shell. If you compare it to a 12-gauge 3-inch shell I can launch one at 1475 fps with a 1 1/4 oz payload. Speed kills with steel shot because it's so much lighter then lead. Here is the pellet count difference for let’s say #2 shot that I think is the ideal size for ducks. You have to realize that a # 2 pellet doing 1400 fps out of the muzzle only has 15.2 ft-lbs of energy. When that pellet reaches 30 yards it’s only got 4.7 ft-lbs of energy.

20 gauge 3 inch 7/8 oz = 108 pellets 1350 fps
12 gauge 3 inch 1 1/4 oz = 156 pellets 1475 fps

That gives the 12 gauge another 48 pellets over the 20 gauge and another 125 fps faster. There is a lot faster loads with the 12 gauge if you drop the payload down but you still need a good pattern to kill ducks constantly.

If your planning on hunting Geese lets take a look at BB shot size.

20 gauge 3 inch 7/8 oz = 62 pellets 1350 fps
12 gauge 3 inch 1 1/4 oz = 87 pellets 1475 fps

Again the 12 gauge is traveling another 125 fps faster and has a pellet advantage of 25 more pellets. You have to realize that a BB pellet doing 1400 fps out of the muzzle has around 28 ft-lbs of energy. When that pellet reaches 30 yards it’s only got 10 ft-lbs of energy.


I was hunting ducks over decoys using shells that were only doing 1350 fps. I got a double. One was motionless on the water and the other was skipping on the water so I chased him first with my canoe, as I was chasing him, the duck that I thought was stone dead on the water came too and flew buy me as I was chasing the other one. As I got closer to the second duck it too jumped up and took off. I know I hit and put pellets into both of them but the shells were just not strong enough to get the job done properly. Both ducks were shot within 30 yards. These were black ducks very similar in make up and size to a mallard. That's when I got into reloading steel shot. I wont use anything slower then 1450 fps for ducks anymore and my cripples have dropped dramatically.

If it was up to me and I could only afford one shot gun and I was planning on using it for ducks and geese I’d go for at least a 12 gauge that can handle 3 inch shells. That’s just my opinion and others may have varying ones. I’ve been hunting ducks for 24 years and using steel shot for 9 of them.

Good luck in making your decision I hope I’ve shed some light on the subject.

Marc.

PGKris
02-01-2006, 11:08 PM
.410 it is. I see your points but you can't convince me that 125 fps is crucial. 125 fps is virtually nothing when you're talking guns. I see your points Marc. Still going with the .410 I can always borrow dad's 870 Wingmaster in 12ga if I get into ducks ;)

Marc
02-02-2006, 06:38 AM
Kris , when you're talking shotguns and steel shot that extra 125 fps means a lot. Lead is a different story. Lead shot is dencer and keeps it's energy a lot longer. The formula for energy in steel shot is if you quadrouple the speed you'll double the energy. That's why you go for a larger pellet and speed it up compared to lead.

Marc.

Johnnybear
02-02-2006, 08:55 AM
Congrat's on the new shotgun paintballer. You'll end up using that 12 ga. for everything once you get used to it. I use a 12 ga. for all my bird hunting. They work great on rabbits too. Widest range of shot and loads and you can buy the ammo anywhere. My 2 bits.

CanAm500
02-02-2006, 06:26 PM
Just got the Mossberg in today, and I have to say its a nice shotgun :cool:

Dano
02-02-2006, 08:09 PM
Kris , when you're talking shotguns and steel shot that extra 125 fps means a lot. Lead is a different story. Lead shot is dencer and keeps it's energy a lot longer. The formula for energy in steel shot is if you quadrouple the speed you'll double the energy. That's why you go for a larger pellet and speed it up compared to lead.
Marc.

Good stuff Marc. I found a big difference when shooting the 1450fps shells. Much better in terms of birds dropped and clean killed.
When buying shotshells, make sure you read the fine print. Canadian Tire sells the Winchester High Velocity (HV) 2 3/4" shells for a good price and the Federals shells are cheap too...except the Federal shells are 1350fps. Federal makes a 1450fps shell and the packaging is the same so you have to look.
I agree with Marc on all counts about velocity and pellet count. One of the main reasons I bought my Browning A5 was because it was a Magnum and could shoot the 3" shells. I'm a decent shot and had been using my old Wingmaster with 2 3/4" Win. HV but watching my buddy consistantly drop birds hard with his Remington 11-87 sold me on getting a 3" gun.
I like a 20 guage for grouse but sold my old 870 pump to a buddy for his young son as I seldom go specifically for grouse anymore. The .410 does the job though, a friend has an old Reminton 1100 auto in .410 which he uses just for grouse and he does well (and it's a really pretty gun!).
Good luck with the Mossy, let us know how you make out.
Dano

PGKris
02-03-2006, 11:11 AM
She's ordered and on the way. Rem. Model 870 Wingmaster in .410 Will be fun to shoot but will most likely break me. Anyone know where I can get a good deal on shells without paying ridicuolous shipping costs?