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sammy-j-peppers
07-17-2009, 05:10 PM
.....................................

Slee
07-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Against it

Bison is at 1.54% success rate



Trophy sheep is drawing at a priority 9 on ave.

One MU has 4 tags. 60 guys with priority 12 were not drawn. 54 guys have priority 11 and were not drawn. ect ect ect this is just one MU.

antlerless elk are drawing at a priority 5 ave.

antlerless moose are drawing at a priority 8 ave. with a pile of guys 999 sitting at priority 10, 11, and 12.....

there are over 800 sheep hunters with a priority 8 or more thats have been 999 it for the last 8 plus years. There are only 69 trophy sheep tag in alberta each year. lets do the math... it will be over 11 years just for these guys to get drawn!! never mind all the future guys coming up in the system.....



goat draw is at a .45% draw rate once in a lifetime tag

barry1974w
07-17-2009, 06:23 PM
I'm against it. It's going to start taking longer and longer to get tags in Alberta (Look at some of the states). I'm all for the reduced odds on high demand hunts, and I personally feel that Bison and maybe a couple of others should go to once in a lifetime, or once in ten years or something( but maybe I'm just bitter).

cariboobill
07-17-2009, 08:08 PM
you want the best system;

The MOE takes all the applications from resident hunters and FN, then alots the available animals, then the commercial hunting business gets whats left. should increase our odds by double. Sorry but I am pissed in my region I get 50% reduction in GOS allocation and no reduciton for commercial. I understand it is hard to run a business with this type of allocation, but it is harder to put meat in the freezer with the government LEH BS.

Time to take on how the LEH operates here in BC, the rights of the public need to come first. Who wants to make a legal challenge?

riflebuilder
07-17-2009, 09:22 PM
The system we have here may not be the best but it is a pure luck lottery, you can get drawn for something if you are willing to travel and I believe it is a better system than the AB one. Take the 10 yr old girl who drew a Rossie tag on the island. With the AB system she would have never drawn that tag until she was 80 and too old to hunt. With some of our tags so limited and the demand so high the preference point system would only work for the group that put in the first year and every after. No one else woud ever get drawn.

6 K
07-17-2009, 09:44 PM
I am against.
The best system in my mind would be:
you get one entry for each year you have been unsucsessful for that hunt code.
Ie. your first year you get a single entry if not drawn and you put in for the exsact same draw you get two entries for your $6.
Still not drawn If you apply for the same draw again you get three entries for your application.
Get drawn, change dates, gender (of animal not hunter:roll::lol:), or area and you go back to one entry.
I think then guys who really want to hunt their back yard or where their cabin is, or want that really awsome holy grail. will eventually get it or at least have a much better chance and the newbe or luckyone still has an oppertuinity as well.
You would think a guy with twenty entries for his favorate moose location would at least feel like he has a better chance at it and if still not drawn his chances only improve as time goes on. If he/she sticks it out.
Is this clear or can I clearify more? Pls. excuse spelling.
What do you guys think?

Rackmastr
07-18-2009, 06:01 AM
I like it overall....

It has its flaws and sometimes I wish there was a few more 'lottery' style tags, but overall its quite easy to manage and a guy can really plan on certain things before applying.

For the past few years I have almost known that I would draw tags. I planned my seasons around certain tags and none went to waste.

A person can draw GOOD cow elk tags in 1 year, GOOD bull elk tags in a year or two, moose tags in your first year, antelope tags in 5-6 years, and mulie tags in your first or second year. Yes there are some zones that take a while, but again its so easy to plan stuff and its a choice to wait for some of the more popular zones or zones with less tags.

There are a few bad flaws. Some of the VERY high end tags such as 408 sheep or 437 sheep a guy will never draw unless you were the highest priority. If you missed a year or werent around in the start, its pointless. For tags such as these they need to move to something with some lottery system as a part of the draw. Kinda the same as goat and bison.

Other than that, I wont complain much. The priority system allows me to plan hunts in advance and really forecast what I can hunt from year to year. There is enough diversity in the province to draw tags at different priority levels for different areas that there is always the option to draw a pile of tags.

Just my thoughts.... acknowledging that there are flaws in all systems but the Alberta one isnt horrible IMO...

hunter1947
07-18-2009, 06:19 AM
Our LEH system is not to bad the way they have had it over the years ,it just needs a little tune up here and there.

If you like the Alberta LEH system then don't apply for the BC draw ,apply for the Albert's LEH and it will give more hunters here in BC a better chance at getting there draw ;-).

dougan
07-18-2009, 06:58 AM
alberta hunting is a rite bc hunting is a privledge!!!!!!!

Mulies
07-18-2009, 08:16 AM
Lived on Van. Island all my life until august of last year. Moved to Fort Mc. for work. I applied for over thirty years to get an elk draw without any luck. This was my first time applying in alberta. Put in for three draws and got two of them. Muledeer and bull moose.:grin: Still an O-for with the elk.:icon_frow
A wierd thing that happened on the rosie draws was that the three of us that used to car pool together all had are sons get drawn the first time they applied.

bearass
07-18-2009, 09:36 AM
At least Alberta Leh you get your tag some time in your life time.

Leh odds should be equal for EVERYONE. Pure luck is not an equal chance at getting a tag for people that don,t have luck.

I feel if a person has been suporting hunting for thirty years and has no luck with the draw system it is unfair.

I have lived l in b.c. my entire life minus 3 years in alberta .Trust me it is a nice feeling to know you are going to get the tag sooner ot later.

I think we should adopt a system like alberta and have a special leh system for new hunters.

Slee
07-18-2009, 09:49 AM
One area I think we can improve on is allowing guys to buy tags for the under subscribed hunts like they do in Alberta. That may raise resident success rates and allow us more tags in the long run???

digger dogger
07-18-2009, 10:06 AM
our system is o.k but as hunter1947 said it needs a tune up. as far as not getting a moose draw in a.b i can understand the wait, we have WAY more moose in bc. so if a person puts in in a heavily hunted area. it will take a higher priority the get that draw. i put in for mulies in an area that is all private land and i get a draw every year. but if i put in on crown land further east it would take 5-7 years to get that draw. a.b system would work for certain hunts but the high odds hunts would need to be a lottery(sheep,buffalo) and no f****ing 999ing if you cant go TFB. whatever the case may be. health, death,work, no exeptions. imo

willyqbc
07-20-2009, 09:39 AM
Seems to a blend of the two systems would be the way to go.....

* for lower odd hunts like moose, grizz, elk (not rosies), doe draws etc use the priority system so that a hunter could probably plan on a moose every 4 years or so or whatever it may be. Rather than one hunter drawing a moose tag 5 times in 10 years (i've seen a buddy get 6 in 10 years) and another getting none they would each get drawn 2 or 3 times in ten years. (Don't get hung up on my numbers...they are fictitious and just used as an example)

* for the high odd hunts such as bison, rosies, Kamloops lake sheep etc it stays strictly a lottery system. you could put a "once in a lifetime" or "twice in a lifetime" limitation on these tags to try and help spread them around. Even doing that there are going to be hunters who never get the chance to hunt the high odds species of their choice. for example, there are 414 bison tags total every year so even using a once in a lifetime system it would take about 193 years to cover off each of the existing hunters in the province today....thats with zero recruitment

There would have to be an odds threshold figured out as to what odds would constitute a priority system and which would remain lottery....we'll leave that one for the mathmeticians to figure out.

Anyway...seems to me pulling the best parts of both systems would be a vast improvement over what we have now.

Just my opinion
Chris

jml11
07-20-2009, 09:51 AM
-After you wait 4-8 years to get a moose/elk draw it will be at least anouther 4-8 years until you can draw again.


please feel free to make comments. Im not sure if guys on here realy know what its like.....


Not to mention that until your reach a high enough priority to be drawn or drwan again, you have to donate the funds for the application knowing there is absolutely no way you will be getting that tag and hunting. At least with our system, there is always a chance you will get the draw every year!

digger dogger
07-20-2009, 10:14 AM
Not to mention that until your reach a high enough priority to be drawn or drwan again, you have to donate the funds for the application knowing there is absolutely no way you will be getting that tag and hunting. At least with our system, there is always a chance you will get the draw every year!

i think a small price to pay for a tag yer gonna get eventually, my uncle does my draws for me but i think they're half the price, in a.b.. somebody has to get paid fer the paperwork. imo

Gateholio
07-20-2009, 10:30 AM
Might find some useful info on this thread
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=11203&highlight=questions

ROM
07-20-2009, 10:48 AM
The AB system is a highly efficient and predictable at creating fair hunting opportunities.

Many hunters in BC rank the 'lottery' concept high in their hunting exploits. I do not.

Fear mongering about the AB system is rampant. Most animals are huntable within 1-2 years in AB if you are willing to drive. Yes it is 10 years to get a moose outside of Calgary. But outside of Grande Prairie it is 1-2 years.

Also, MUCH less complaining about the draw system. The best thing BC could do is duplicate the system including the provider (based in BC) and weather the whining for 2 years. After that it would save them Thousands in fielding complaints and people would be much happier about their timely and predictable system.

One good thing about the BC system is the shared moose hunt.

R

brotherjack
07-20-2009, 10:59 AM
I think the current system is inherently unfair. Those of you who are in favor of the current system seem to support it _because_ of that inherent unfairness (quotes of "at least I have a chance to draw every year"). If we are going to support it on the grounds that there is the chance that a person could get drawn on his/her first year, or several years in a row, etc -- then we also support the fact that others will put in for their entire lifetime and never draw a tag (even on low odds hunts).

As has been discussed to death; with odds as long as some of the hunts are in B.C., a points system won't work across the board (actually, it would; some people would give up on the 300:1 odds, and sooner or later, the odds would get low enough to make it work on the points system -- but the whining along the way would be intense). However, it would work fine with the vast majority of the hunts (cow/calf tags, doe tags, etc), and for hunts with the odds too high to run as a points system, simply run them as a once-in-a-lifetime lottery draw.

If there's not enough tags to hold a GOS, then there ought to be some fairness to the way it gets rationed out.

Them's my $0.02.

bighornbob
07-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Fear mongering about the AB system is rampant. Most animals are huntable within 1-2 years in AB if you are willing to drive.

Other then grizz, bison, Dall sheep and Rosies there is a open season somewhere in the province if you are willing to drive so no one really needs a LEH other then the four above species. So your argument is a little misleading.

The problem is if you are not willing to drive. say around Kelowna, Moose would be a 30 year wait, mule deer does 10 years, cow elk in the Christian Valley 20 year wait. Sheep in Penticton 50 year wait.

Question for the Alberta guys, is there places that you can buy over the counter elk, moose or Mule deer buck tags???

BHB

brotherjack
07-20-2009, 12:30 PM
The problem is if you are not willing to drive. say around Kelowna, Moose would be a 30 year wait, mule deer does 10 years, cow elk in the Christian Valley 20 year wait. Sheep in Penticton 50 year wait.


But see, that's the point -- that 30 year wait, and 10 year wait would be ultimately fair to those putting in; nobody gets drawn twice when others haven't been drawn, nobody gets drawn first try when others have been trying for 30 years, etc. What we have currently, is not a fair system. Just because some people like it that way, doesn't make it good.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Barracuda
07-20-2009, 12:56 PM
I kind of chuckle at the naysayers of the draw lottery system we have because to me it seems more like hunting.

you have no sure things but one can increase thier odds of success by chooseing the area that gives better odds .

The LEH lottery is the same way .

next is that if one decideds to hunt for moose or elk etc all they have to do is do some planning and hunt an area with a general open season.

it is a choice not to hunt a species because you didnt get an LEH if it has a general open season somewhere in BC available to you.

Slee
07-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Question for the Alberta guys, is there places that you can buy over the counter elk, moose or Mule deer buck tags???

BHB

Mule deer and bull elk tags are over the counter. Mostly in the foothills/rocky Mtns. Before I moved back to bc the only bull moose GOS was by fort mac. the rest were on draw

bighornbob
07-20-2009, 01:36 PM
But see, that's the point -- that 30 year wait, and 10 year wait would be ultimately fair to those putting in; nobody gets drawn twice when others haven't been drawn, nobody gets drawn first try when others have been trying for 30 years, etc. What we have currently, is not a fair system. Just because some people like it that way, doesn't make it good.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

So you want a point system like alberta?? Using the 30 year wait for moose in the Okanagan as an example it would take 30 years to get a tag. Imagine being 16 years old and getting your license and you know full well that you will be 46 years old before you draw a tag under the point system as you got your license two years after the system was introduced. I doubt you , me or the kid would stick to hunting very long if that was the case.

This is posted from the link that gatehouse provided. It is from a guy that works for the LEH department.

2. This is probably the single biggest question I get asked. Here is
the answer:

WHY BC DOES NOT USE A POINT PREFERENCE SYSTEM FOR ALLOCATING L.E. HUNTS

Point preference systems and pool systems (which are very similar) are
used in a number of North American jurisdictions. Alberta uses a
system in which points are accumulated each time an individual applies
unsuccessfully. Draws are preferentially given to those with the most
points first; the second most points second, and so on. When the system
reaches a point level where there are more applicants than remaining
available licences, the available licences are randomly assigned at that
point level. Upon being drawn, an applicant's points are deleted and
they start accumulating from zero again.

In 2005, Alberta had 213,749 applications for 71,950 available licences,
with overall average odds of 2.97 to 1. With such odds, on average,
applicants would be drawn roughly every 3 years even in a completely
random system. In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1,
nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.

If you examine Alberta's hunts in detail, you find that some of their
hunts are very easy to get, with many hunts in their WMU's actually
going undersubscribed. Eleven of their twenty-three categories have a
20% or better overall success rate (ie, odds of 5 to 1 or better),
encompassing 168,613 of their total 213,749 applications (79%). For
these hunts, their system will work very nicely, with people getting
drawn once every 5 years or better. However, with their high odds hunts,
it's a different story. If you want to hunt sheep in Alberta, you will
wait many years to reach the highest point level. In fact, some of
Alberta's sheep and goat hunts are not on a priority system because they
recognize that the demand is so high that nobody would get to hunt until
they reached extreme age. Fortunately, relatively few of Alberta's LEH
opportunities have such high demand, so overall their system meets their
needs.

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1. What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you
imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might
provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old? Having
examined our odds situation, we believe that asking hunters to pay for
so many years before they have any chance of being drawn would be
fraudulent. Indeed, in the early 1980's, Montana scrapped their priority
system for elk because they found that nobody under a certain age would
draw a licence in their lifetime.


As you can see they have way more tags to give.

BHB

brotherjack
07-20-2009, 01:49 PM
So you want a point system like alberta?? Using the 30 year wait for moose in the Okanagan as an example it would take 30 years to get a tag. Imagine being 16 years old and getting your license and you know full well that you will be 46 years old before you draw a tag under the point system as you got your license two years after the system was introduced. I doubt you , me or the kid would stick to hunting very long if that was the case.


Well, first off, if you'll notice my posts, personally, I am in favor of a hybrid system -- where the hunts with long odds hunts being "once in a lifetime, open lottery", and the rest of them with more reasonable odds (for arguments sake, let's say 15:1 or less) go on a points system.

That said though -- if you put even 100:1 tags on a points system, enough people would give up real fast, to run those odds down to something reasonable, and in the end, the points system would be sustainable.

The other problem we have in B.C., is hyper-conservative (beyond all sane reason), and trophy hunting oriented/guide outfitter favoring management strategies. If game was managed for high sustainable harvest rates instead of trophy hunting and ultra-conservative ideals (ie: stockpiling in between bad winters) -- well, we'd have a heck of a lot more tags to give out too, and it wouldn't be that big a deal.

Bearen 09
07-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Problem solved !!!!!! Become a bowhunter. No 10,20,30,40,50,60,70 year wait. Anything with a heartbeat in the bowzone is fair game. Monster mulies at the end of Aug. in full velvet. Albertas bowzone is open Sept.3 until Nov.30th. Like everyone else said, you have to drive thats is it!

bighornbob
07-20-2009, 03:02 PM
Well, first off, if you'll notice my posts, personally, I am in favor of a hybrid system -- where the hunts with long odds hunts being "once in a lifetime, open lottery", and the rest of them with more reasonable odds (for arguments sake, let's say 15:1 or less) go on a points system.

So what would happen then if your 15:1 hunt has a drop in numbers or the season closes. Say for example moose around kamloops. You apply for 10 years and you are assuming you will be picked in the next fews years. Then ticks kill off most of the animals and that number goes up another 15 years as the tags have been cut by 50%. If points could be transferred to another area that would make sence for that hunter but it would be unfair to those hunters as their time has now doubled.


That said though -- if you put even 100:1 tags on a points system, enough people would give up real fast, to run those odds down to something reasonable, and in the end, the points system would be sustainable.

If you look at sheep draws in the states that does not happen. On some of the US sites there are some real number savy guys that have done all the number crunching and looking at different scenarios (i.e. total number of guys with max points, new applicants each year, average age of sheep hunters and average death rates). (Yes us sheep guys are nuts.) The numbers dont drop. In some cases guys have stopped applying for themselves and have started entering their kids as they realize they will never see a tag in their lifetime or at least when their legs can get them up the mountain. So they hope by starting when their kids are 10 they may be able to live long enough to see their kid get a ram.



The other problem we have in B.C., is hyper-conservative (beyond all sane reason), and trophy hunting oriented/guide outfitter favoring management strategies. If game was managed for high sustainable harvest rates instead of trophy hunting and ultra-conservative ideals (ie: stockpiling in between bad winters) -- well, we'd have a heck of a lot more tags to give out too, and it wouldn't be that big a deal.

I agree with you here. I would personally like to see no moose elk or deer on LEH. There is no need for it for 90% of the areas. Open it right up and limit moose and elk to one per season. A guy could only shoot one, not both in a year. This would spread out the hunters as most of the Kootenay guys would hunt elk and most of the Caribou guys would hunt. The lower mainland guys could choose either.

BHB

GoatGuy
07-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Other then grizz, bison, Dall sheep and Rosies there is a open season somewhere in the province if you are willing to drive so no one really needs a LEH other then the four above species. So your argument is a little misleading.

The problem is if you are not willing to drive. say around Kelowna, Moose would be a 30 year wait, mule deer does 10 years, cow elk in the Christian Valley 20 year wait. Sheep in Penticton 50 year wait.

Question for the Alberta guys, is there places that you can buy over the counter elk, moose or Mule deer buck tags???

BHB

Yes, they have GOS in Alberta basically anywhere there's a bush or two.

They have GOSs in Alberta in the same kinds of areas we have LEH.

Seeadler
07-20-2009, 06:10 PM
I think this was beaten to death before. I would like to see some sort of hybrid system along with more GOS opportunities. The fact that the majority of hunters are most concerned with getting meat in their freezer means that getting moose, elk, and deer tags into peoples hands need to be a priority along with encouraging young people to take up hunting.

I would like to see:
1) Youth and first time hunters issued with an any deer tag.
2) Dall's Sheep and the Spatzizi draws on a priority system, this would help with planning and logistics or else run these draws earlier as is being done now with the Spatzizi tags. The other sheep LEHs can stay on a straight lottery.
3) Being able to put in for moose or elk, not both, I think this would serve to get these tags into the hands of more people, more often.
4) As many concurant seasons as possible to spread out pressure.
5) Maybe for sheep and bison, add the requirement to buy the tag when entering the draw, then refund this if unsuccessful as is done in some US states.

I am not in favour of the once in a lifetime idea, as it will not make any real differnce when you are dealing with 100:1 odds.

Bowzone_Mikey
07-20-2009, 07:26 PM
Question for the Alberta guys, is there places that you can buy over the counter elk, moose or Mule deer buck tags???

BHB

Yep .... but the WMUs are limited and Scatterd Limited to mostly the 400 series... unless stuff has changed drastically elk is over the counter (cows were draw)...General moose is way up north ..maby even the 500 series (boreal zones) and Muley ... was open in 415(ish) area (NW of calgary in the rocky mountian forestry reserve near Waiparous area) Basically Mountain Muleys .....
Now since I have moved away .. they have opened Muleys because of the CWD thing in alot of the eastern AB zones
However if you want to take advantage of the 2 month archery only seasons in Alberta ...all these tags are availible over the counter for most WMUs... with archery seasons there you could shoot pretty much anything ...with a WT tag you can shoot a buck or doe with bow ....general Open season or Gun season that was limited to Bucks

Bearen 09
07-20-2009, 09:38 PM
Yep .... but the WMUs are limited and Scatterd Limited to mostly the 400 series... unless stuff has changed drastically elk is over the counter (cows were draw)...General moose is way up north ..maby even the 500 series (boreal zones) and Muley ... was open in 415(ish) area (NW of calgary in the rocky mountian forestry reserve near Waiparous area) Basically Mountain Muleys .....
Now since I have moved away .. they have opened Muleys because of the CWD thing in alot of the eastern AB zones
However if you want to take advantage of the 2 month archery only seasons in Alberta ...all these tags are availible over the counter for most WMUs... with archery seasons there you could shoot pretty much anything ...with a WT tag you can shoot a buck or doe with bow ....general Open season or Gun season that was limited to Bucks
Whats this two month stuff, the bow zone opens the second wed. of the month in Sep.and runs until the last day of Nov. Right in the middle of Edmonton, if your hunting and have a moose tag, elk tag or any tag,getter done. Like i said earler if it has a heart beat its fair game..

Bowzone_Mikey
07-20-2009, 10:39 PM
Whats this two month stuff, the bow zone opens the second wed. of the month in Sep.and runs until the last day of Nov. Right in the middle of Edmonton, if your hunting and have a moose tag, elk tag or any tag,getter done. Like i said earler if it has a heart beat its fair game..

Yes in the Bowzones (edmonton/Calgary and Strathcona).... the rest of the province (for the most part...some of the MTN WMUs season open end of Aug) has a 2 month headstart on the General open seasons (gun toters)

BruceW
07-24-2009, 07:28 AM
I love Ab's draw system. There are lot's of general tags for every species, the more demand zones there are draws, and there are supplemental tags for draw zones when the applications are lower than wanted.
You can check draw success history online for the last 10 yrs, and plan your next yrs hunt right now if you like. (and the next, and the next, ...)

We all hunt with one or two buddies or family members, and if you plan your draws between the 2 or 3 of you you can (collectively) hunt pretty much whatever you want, every single year. The youth opportunities are great, and a wildlife cert. get's them a free birdgame tag.
Yes, you can't maybe hunt what you want in your backyard every year, but at least you can hunt every year.

Only real exceptions are: trophy sheep, goat, and somewhat antelope. Antelope is 5 or 6 yrs for trophy, 2 or 3 for doe, depending on zone.
I think the bison hunt demand will lower in a couple yrs, once guys applying stop to think what's involved, most will just 999 it, if they even keep applying. That's a pretty major undertaking.

I honestly don't know how it could be much improved, given the demand here in Ab, although I would like to see the archery only seasons turned into a primitive weapons season.
I don't shoot bp, unless you include 4198(ha), but lot's of guys do, and a season may entice more people.

CanuckShooter
07-24-2009, 10:25 AM
""In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1, nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.""


Is there any way to determine how many individual applicants put in for those 24,476 draws? On average I probably put in 3 to 5 applications each year. I wonder if it would be possible to have a system where one successful application voids your other cards?

Perhaps the cards could have boxes for upto 10 [arbitrary number] hunt codes in order of preference. For example if your first choice was Rosie Elk on the island and you were drawn...you wouldn't get your moose/doe deer/goat or other choices unless they were not allocated to another applicant, and if you didn't get your Rosie your second choice would still be in the drawing.

I see this as a possible way to spread the success around a little, instead of one fellow getting 2 or 3 draws year upon year while others collect NIL. OR as in my case, I would really like to get a goat draw before I get much older and cannot contemplate that hunt...and/or I wouldn't be too happy to get goat/rosie/junction sheep/buffalo/grizz all in one season after years of missing and would rather just accept one and let someone else win one of the others.

AND: something else no one else has mentioned yet...find a way to prevent anti hunters [those without the intention of ever using the LEH] from being drawn. Maybe something like, you have to buy your hunting licence online to be allowed into the drawings..and you have to purchase the tag online if your drawn....and you have to have a valid PAL.

Just some thoughts to throw into the mix.

brotherjack
07-24-2009, 10:54 AM
""In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1, nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.""

Is there any way to determine how many individual applicants put in for those 24,476 draws? On average I probably put in 3 to 5 applications each year. I wonder if it would be possible to have a system where one successful application voids your other cards?


Well, we only got about 80,000 hunters in B.C., so you can bet that it's certainly a lower number than 80,000. I'd guess probably more like 30,000/40,000 at best, or thereinabouts, that are applying for those 26k hunts. That would also stand to reason, based on the draw success/failure rate poll -- about half didn't draw anything, and about half did draw something.

GoatGuy
07-24-2009, 10:56 AM
about 70,000 different applicants.

willyqbc
07-24-2009, 11:27 AM
Just a question about Alberta....what is the native hunting situation there?? Is it like B.C. where they pretty much have free reign to hunt as they please? I know at the last allocation meeting we had here in region 5 we were told that of the total allocation of moose, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40-50% (can't recall the exact number) were set aside for natives. They had no idea if the Natives would take that many moose but they wanteds to be "better safe than sorry". Seems to me that having less than 50% of the allocation available to resident hunters once you consider in the GO's quotas as well is the reason our odds are so high making the priority system unworkable here. I'm sure this does not apply to all species but I definately think it causes a lot of the frustration with moose hunters unsuccessful in the LEH. I would really like to see the gov't force the natives to report on harvest numbers, it could be that they are under-utilizing their "allocation" and we could be adding a bunch of tags to the LEH pool while the natives still get all they want/need. So back to the original question....does Alberta have less Native allocation, less resident hunters or more animals to make the priority system workable there??

Chris

jml11
07-24-2009, 11:37 AM
Fear mongering about the AB system is rampant. Most animals are huntable within 1-2 years in AB if you are willing to drive. Yes it is 10 years to get a moose outside of Calgary. But outside of Grande Prairie it is 1-2 years.

R

Same goes in BC, but people are unwilling to try for the undersubscribed hunts. If I wanted to I could get a goat, moose and grizzly draw every year!! And so can any other BC resident, you just need to be willing to travel and HUNT.

In fact most species in BC have a GOS, in some cases you may have to drive for a day to get to it. You can hunt moose, elk, mule, white-tailed and black-tailed deer, caribou, goat, Cali and rocky mountain big horn sheep, stone's sheep, black bears, cows, calves, bulls, bucks, does, boars, sows, rams, bilies, nannies ect. every year without a LEH if you want to.

bighornbob
07-24-2009, 12:48 PM
Perhaps the cards could have boxes for upto 10 [arbitrary number] hunt codes in order of preference. For example if your first choice was Rosie Elk on the island and you were drawn...you wouldn't get your moose/doe deer/goat or other choices unless they were not allocated to another applicant, and if you didn't get your Rosie your second choice would still be in the drawing.

I see this as a possible way to spread the success around a little, instead of one fellow getting 2 or 3 draws year upon year while others collect NIL. OR as in my case, I would really like to get a goat draw before I get much older and cannot contemplate that hunt...and/or I wouldn't be too happy to get goat/rosie/junction sheep/buffalo/grizz all in one season after years of missing and would rather just accept one and let someone else win one of the others.




Canuck

This was proposed by somebody on this site and is probably the best idea I have seen. Like you said have spaces for 10 hunt codes. You choose your hunts as which one you want the most to which one you want the least. The computor assigns everyone a number (like its done now) and only goes through everyones first choice. Everyone gets their first choice as long as there are tags left. Like you said this would hopefully spread the tags out a bit. It would not be a perfect system but it would at least get more people tags.

I also agree that I think people should have to send the money in for the tag when you apply. Most of the US states do this and sheep tags are close to $1000. So only the people that really want to go apply. If not drawn you get back $995 dollars.

wolverine
07-24-2009, 01:39 PM
I don't know what the answer is but I know we need our system revamped. It just doesn't work fairly. I believe that if you draw a species that you should be exempt from the next years draw for that species therefore giving everyone else a better chance of being drawn for that species. Not just reduced odds. Try zero odds for the next year. I wouldn't mind sitting out a moose draw if I got one the year before. Then the year after your name could go back in the pool for that species at regular odds. I also think the entry fees of unsuccessful draws should be returned to the applicant unless they are going to go into special funding at 100% for enhancement and not into general coffers so some shit bag can collect a welfare cheque and go and protest the bear hunt.

40inchtwister
07-24-2009, 02:06 PM
has worked good for me

kootenayslam
08-19-2009, 09:54 AM
The Alberta System is Great. i knew i got my antelope draw this year and started planning my hunt last year, BC I didn't know i got my goat draw until almost August. Alberta is a fair system, not many hunters complain about it who use it, you can draw every year if you want to , 4-8 years for the best zones but you know you'll eventually get it, really high priority draw go to 8 years and then lottery, if you've used it i bet you'll like it, It actually will improve hunter retention, and makes planning hunts easier, this years bogus delays of results should have highlighted the fact that we need a change.......of course the guys who drew big elk tags will disagree, but i have drawn good tags in BC too but still don't like the system.

Geo.338
08-19-2009, 11:05 AM
I think that the BC system was about as fair as it could be before enhanced odds came into the picture .This handicapping or bias system is unfair if in fact this is a lottery .In no other lottery is the winner penalized .

I think that if a person is lucky enough to draw Rosie Elk or Cali . or Dalls twice running or within 3 years then so be it .

I am not too familliar with albertas system but I know that for high demand hunts it won't work in BC .There simply aren't enough of some species tags to allow this .Alberta system is not guaranteed either if I understand the 999 clause properly .I think this bit my buddy in the butt as he thought he was getting his pronghorn this year so did not put in for
any BC draws .Well he did not get his pronghorn and now is not going to hunt GOS this year.

I am not in favor of any once in a lifetime draws .Just because a person drew a tag doesen't guarantee success ,and just being able to hunt for a certain species once in your life because of some .F#*!~'ed up system that is not right .When a person draws these sheep or Rosie draws .They should feel like they have one the lottery and cherrish every minute of every day of their season as if it were only once in a lifetime .I can't wait for my next chance at a Rosie .If it were only a once in a lifetime draw I couldn't sleep nights thinking that if I do not score on this hunt then that is it ,no more .

The area I have been hunting moose in was once open for any bull. Now it is spike \ Fork for the last 7 or 8 years .We have since re strategized and now put iin for remote locations with low odds and we get drawn every year for Moose and Grizzly .

If a person is not willing to drive for two days and work to access these remote localles then you are stuck with 5 to 1 or higher odds .and try planning a trip around that .

Shared moose does nothing for me .Our party is all family guys and we want one moose each if the opportunity presents itself .This year we drew 2 out of three on moose and grizz so we will make camp in the any bull area and two of us will hunt the neighboring M.U. that we are drawn for.

I think we do need to weed out the bear huggers and such that get drawn and do not hunt but this will only free up a few tags I think .Better than none though.

Every hunter who thinks that our system is fair and workable should communicate this to the ministry as I am pretty sure that those who do not are quick to write a whiny letter saying as much .As they say " The squeeky wheel ." What we need is subtle change not revolution.

In a nutshell .I think every hunter in b.c. should have the same chance at success in th LEH Lottery .That would be fair .

Gateholio
08-19-2009, 11:17 AM
Might find some useful info on this thread
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=11203&highlight=questions


;-):lol:;-)

Geo.338
08-19-2009, 11:22 AM
Now I hear you Gatehouse .

kootenayslam
08-21-2009, 11:49 AM
.

I am not too familliar with albertas system .


After understanding the system or using the system your judgement may change, if your buddy didn't get his antelope this year he didn't do his research well as it's clear as to when you will get your draw if you look at the previous years odds on the animal and zone you want to hunt, eg.....it will look like this. 2008-trophy antelope zone XYZ:priority 8-100%,7-100%, 6-100%, 5-45%, 4,0%, 3-0%, 2-0%, 1-0%, 0-0%, so the priority 5's may or may not get drawn, this is usually very acurate on a year to year basis so your buddy must have been a 5 or below in this example, all i'm saying is before dismissing it take a look at it theres alot of support for it compared to our bc lottery style draws.

cohod
08-21-2009, 01:42 PM
having used both systems I can say I like the Alberta system way better than the lottery system in B.C in B.C I drew for Island elk when I was 14 1st draw that was 20+ years ago my Dad has entered the draw since its inception and has never been drawn...I have a buddy same age as me that has been drawn 5 times, in Alberta I can predict when and how long it will take to be drawn, some species and areas take longer than others but you know when it going to happen. If a guy wanted to he could be drawn for moose every year lots of under subscribed tags..Elk can be as short as every couple years to as long as 10 or more same with mules, antelope can take a little longer 4 and up. it all depends on where you put in and how long you want to wait all in all I prefer the Alberta system.


cohod

Slee
08-21-2009, 05:41 PM
After understanding the system or using the system your judgement may change, if your buddy didn't get his antelope this year he didn't do his research well as it's clear as to when you will get your draw if you look at the previous years odds on the animal and zone you want to hunt, eg.....it will look like this. 2008-trophy antelope zone XYZ:priority 8-100%,7-100%, 6-100%, 5-45%, 4,0%, 3-0%, 2-0%, 1-0%, 0-0%, so the priority 5's may or may not get drawn, this is usually very acurate on a year to year basis so your buddy must have been a 5 or below in this example, all i'm saying is before dismissing it take a look at it theres alot of support for it compared to our bc lottery style draws.

But thats still no guarantee that you will get it. There is always the list of guys that have 9, 10, 11, 12 years priority that have been 999 there draws. You never know when they will decide this is the year they will take there animal and you are SOL once again after spending a year to plan your hunt........

goatdancer
08-22-2009, 10:57 AM
kootenayslam
Which draw did you get? I got draw 803, 3rd week in October.

BruceW
08-23-2009, 07:05 AM
With the system here in AB, you can plan your hunts years ahead and know what you'll be hunting.
Here's a link to the 2008 draw results. You can look back about 10 yrs through the results: http://www.mywildalberta.com/Hunting/HuntingDraws/DrawsSummaryReport.aspx

No need to worry about those with super high priority, there's not that many. If over the last 3-5 yrs the draw that interests you had 100% for priority 3, and 30-40% for priority 2, we just wait for priority 3 to put in, and we're a shoe-in. If it's a draw that's "we get it, we get it, we don't we don't", we'll put in at 2, and if we get it, it's a bonus hunt. If a 3 is 100%, and a 2 is 0%, 3 is a maybe, 4 is a definite.

With all the draws, plus general tags, plus undersuscribed tags the options are endless, and I know right now what I can get drawn for next year.
That's pretty tough to beat.
I don't know how your lottery system works, here in the "lottery" days, the local f&g "drew" the tags, and believe me, They drew the tags. Now THAT sucked.
This yr they're testing the waters with a BP season, I'd sure like to see archery changed to primitive weapons. Other than that, I honestly don't think the AB system could be improved.

Bowzone_Mikey
08-23-2009, 01:22 PM
thats pretty much how our lotery system works ...

using both systems I prefer the AB system ... those that oppose it it seems have never used it ...

You can thank the Alberta Bowhunters assoc and all the work they done for the very liberal Bow seasons there ...

When I lived in AB the most I had to wait was 4 years ... that was for a Camp Wainwright hunt ... 3years on Dope-elope ...2 for moose ... does were yearly ..... if the planets lined up just right I could have harvested 10 or more deer (wainwright, strathcona, gen white and muley tags, doe draws. and a few others)