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mark
12-05-2005, 11:13 AM
this is for all the veteran bow hunters, im fairly new at bowhunting only got 1 deer so far, was the perfect broadside double lunger, down in 80 yards. the other day i come face to face with a nice big buck at 20 yards. His body is sheltered by brush but his head and neck is fully exposed. now i can hit a toonie every time at 20 yards. so my question is with a 70 lb. compound would my arrow break his spine if i sink it in the white spot under the chin? has anyone ever made a spine shot with a bow and had success or is this a bad idea. i didnt take the shot but some people say they would have. (not pro bowhunters that said that) id like to hear from people that have experienced it, not just random thoughts and guesses.

BlacktailStalker
12-05-2005, 12:12 PM
I wouldnt take the shot, yeah guys do it, but too much can go wrong. Not worth wondering if a deer lived or not to me. If I have to ask myself twice if I should, I dont and just feel lucky I saw him and hope for round two on him. Just my opinion though. Good luck, hope you find him again.

J_T
12-05-2005, 02:31 PM
This is a very low percentage shot and is not supported at any level with an ethical bowhunting community.

The speed of your bow is not important as you have posted it here. What is most important is shot placement. An ethical kill is what you are looking for.

If - believing that arrow speed is critically important - you are going to cite your bow speed you should also cite your broadhead type, arrow composition and weight. Many broadhead types will either break or bounce off bone when hit squarely. Other broadheads are designed to flow around boney material to penetrate deeper into the flesh.

It is important to recognize that an arrow kills through deadly haemorrhage, not through a debilitating blow to the central nervous system. A rifle often impacts the central nervous system by creating an implosion/shock to the animal and thus causing the animal to succumb to the injury. A bowhunter must think differently because his weapon is different.

I applaud you for making the right decision while hunting with a bow. If you are new to bowhunting, welcome, and you have shown you have an ethical approach. Ethics is not something someone on this site will judge you for, but something each of us lives with based on the decisions we make, when no one is around to judge us.

JT

Ddog
12-05-2005, 02:46 PM
good job on not taking the shot, i have been in that same position more times than you can imagine and have yet to take the shot, however i know of one bowhunter that shoots for the neck when the animal is 20 yards or closer,i hate it, i tried to convince him to wait the shot out but he wont and he has taken several animals down instantly and this is the reason he takes that shot. i wont. if the animal doesnt present me with the lung he walks and i will try to find him again!
i just took my 35th,36th, and 37th deer with my bow this season and only a few of them have not been in the heart lung area..
once again good for you on not taking the shot!
cheers,,,,,,ddog

bochunk2000
12-05-2005, 02:50 PM
I have had two deer go down to neck shots with my bow. NIETHER was intentional. The first one was a buck who was quartering away. I either pulled it or he jumped the string. The shot ended up hitting him directly in the spine. 125gr Muzzy broad head. He droped like a rock and the blades had cut major arteries and was squirting out. When I got it home I found the broad head buried to the end of the blades into solid bone. I was impressed. The second was a distance error. I had lasered the deer but I failed to adjust wnhen I moved a few yards closer before the shot. This one hit the neck and exploded out the othe side. Huge blood spay and she went down in 10-15 feet. I wouldn't take a shot at the neck as there is way too much potential for wounding. I was lucky that a couple of errors ended in clean quick kills.

Onesock
12-05-2005, 03:00 PM
Mark. Good on ya for not taking the shot. A broadside or slightly quartering away shot at the heart lung area is the only shot when bowhunting. Even a 40lb bow with the correct broadhead will kill a deer sized animal everytime if shot in this area. Once again you made the right call.

PGKris
12-05-2005, 04:34 PM
Hit em in the boiler room. No intentional neck shots. Ethics, ethics, ethics. Good call on your part.

mark
12-05-2005, 06:14 PM
thanks for the info guys, thats pretty much what i figured, sure is hard to let a beauty go at that close range though.

PGKris
12-05-2005, 07:32 PM
You're tellin me!! :cry: :cry: I almost had a monster 4x3 at 32m with the bow and there was these 4 little willow sticks right in front of the killzone. I just couldn't take that shot. Shooting expandables....they would just shear off in any direction if they caught a branch and opened. Longest 30 seconds of my life. Big bugger just couldn't take 2 steps :cry: Next year!!

huntwriter
12-05-2005, 09:42 PM
An arrow in the neck of a deer is instantly deadly. But here is the twist the target area is so small that you run a 50/50 chance of not killing the deer. It is what I would call a lucky shot. So no do not take such shots if possible. There are more big bucks out there which will offer you a "You come home with me" shot.

J_T
12-06-2005, 01:23 PM
thanks for the info guys, thats pretty much what i figured, sure is hard to let a beauty go at that close range though.
Mark, that's what keeps you going back there.:razz:

JT

greybark
12-06-2005, 05:54 PM
:) Hey Mark , Good call and good on you.!!!!!!!

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

oldtimer
12-06-2005, 08:34 PM
Mark---- gotta tell ya this got me thinking. I think it would depend on how late in the season and how full or empty the freezer. I would like to give the ethically right answer but I don't know that I wouldn't take the shot, especially in the bow season and being as accurate as you are at 20 yards. Nope I think I would take the shot, low in the neck. Mike

Tuffcity
12-06-2005, 08:49 PM
An arrow in the neck of a deer is instantly deadly

If you meant instantly dead, I disagree. I've inadvertently spined 2 deer. On one my foot slipped as I shot and to this day I still can't figure out what happened on the second one. Both took the buck right below the head and severed the spinal chord. Needless to say, they dropped like rocks but both were still alive and needed a second arrow to quickly finish them off. I hate the shot, and would rather have "tag soup" than purposely take it... and yes, I have let end of season animals walk because the shot wasn't there.

Good on ya Mark for letting it go.

RC

greybark
12-06-2005, 08:50 PM
:smile: Hey Old Timer , With all due respect to you whether my deep freezer was empty and it was the end of the season I still would not take that shot. When one really thinks about this senario the empty deep freezer and the end of the season has nothing to do in regards to the poor choice frontal shot.
:smile: Next year you and Willie are invited to the Rendell Ck Dinner and so great WT hunting in Rock Ck - Keep in touch Mike.

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

Awishanew
12-06-2005, 09:01 PM
Mark. I commend you for not shooting at the neck. I would suggest you take the IBEP (International Bowhunters Education Program) course. It is good for people new to archery as well as old hands. You can always learn a lot of new things.

J_T
12-07-2005, 08:58 AM
Reading the discussion around neck shots I have to add in here that at no time have I ever considered a shot to the neck "an archery shot". No way. And in my opinion, it is not an ethical shot.

Show me a bowhunting course, a 3D archery target or anywhere that might remotely suggest that a neck shot should be considered.

Not even when the freezer's empty.

JT

oldtimer
12-07-2005, 05:09 PM
Greybark-------- Thanks for the invite and looking forward to it. I promise no neck shots.:redface: Keep us posted on the dates please:grin:

huntwriter
12-07-2005, 08:01 PM
If you meant instantly dead, I disagree. I've inadvertently spined 2 deer. On one my foot slipped as I shot and to this day I still can't figure out what happened on the second one. Both took the buck right below the head and severed the spinal chord. Needless to say, they dropped like rocks but both were still alive and needed a second arrow to quickly finish them off. I hate the shot, and would rather have "tag soup" than purposely take it... and yes, I have let end of season animals walk because the shot wasn't there.

Good on ya Mark for letting it go.

RC
You know I have heard it said a few times before that hunters think the animal "still is alive" after they shot it because it still moved. Not only I am a bow hunter for more than 10 years I am also a trained Master Butcher and let me tell you the truth. If you hit an animal in the brain or cut its spinal cord, or shoot trough the lungs and the heart the animal is DEAD. But it will move for up to 10 minutes or sometimes even longer but these are only the nerves. I never shot an animal twice I just wait till they stop kicking and twitching. Belive me there is no need to make the animal more dead then it already is, dead is dead. At the same token some hunters think if an animal runs after a shot for a while that they made a bad shot but it is the same as outlined above they are dead they just don't know it yet.

Marc
12-07-2005, 09:04 PM
I think he's talking about the animal still breathing just paralized so he can't get up to run away.

huntwriter
12-07-2005, 09:40 PM
I think he's talking about the animal still breathing just paralized so he can't get up to run away.
Marc- belive me a animal with a severed spinal cord is dead the kicking and breathing is nothing more than motor motion but the animal has no feeling its heart is still beating for a few seconds longer but the brain has given up to function. Also there is a lot of blood flowing along the spinal cord meaning the animal will bleed completely out within a minute or two. By the way we kill livestock very much the same way by damaging the brain and spinal cord but keep the heart pumping to aid rapid blood loss. By humans we would refer to that state as "brain dead", which is followed by a complete collapse of the system and finished off trough the rapid loss of blood with a cardiac arrest.

I once shot an arrow into a bucks hindleg, my bowstring got caught up in the tree stand, my hunting budy went pale in the face but I was confident that the buck will pile up within sight of us. Why? because I could see the blood cushing out from the arrow hole and on the other side where the arrow exited in the hind leg there are some major blood vessels running up the inside of the legs and when severed will lead to rapid blood loss a shot like this is as deadly as a double lung shot.

True these are not the shots any hunter in his or her right mind should strive for but they are deadly nontheless. I am by no means try to tell anyone what to do or apear uncaring toward the animals we kill and yes I will admit that it can be very frustrating for a hunter to think that the animal he just shot apears to be still alive, but as I said it is only the nerves acting and yes it can look very real and alive.

Rob
12-07-2005, 09:54 PM
You know I have heard it said a few times before that hunters think the animal "still is alive" after they shot it because it still moved. Not only I am a bow hunter for more than 10 years I am also a trained Master Butcher and let me tell you the truth. If you hit an animal in the brain or cut its spinal cord, or shoot trough the lungs and the heart the animal is DEAD. But it will move for up to 10 minutes or sometimes even longer but these are only the nerves. I never shot an animal twice I just wait till they stop kicking and twitching. Belive me there is no need to make the animal more dead then it already is, dead is dead. At the same token some hunters think if an animal runs after a shot for a while that they made a bad shot but it is the same as outlined above they are dead they just don't know it yet.
I disagree, just because you hit/severe a spinal cord with a razor tip/bullet how does that instantly kill a deer???? Will hitting a deer in the spine behind its neck kill a deer with the same quickness as if i hit it in the lower spinal area? I wouldnt think it would. Please explain. Rob

mark
12-07-2005, 10:16 PM
Mark. I commend you for not shooting at the neck. I would suggest you take the IBEP (International Bowhunters Education Program) course. It is good for people new to archery as well as old hands. You can always learn a lot of new things.

never heard of this program where duz one find out about it? local archery club i guess?

Marc
12-07-2005, 10:19 PM
Mark try google I'm pretty sure there is info on it there.

Marc.

huntwriter
12-07-2005, 11:41 PM
I disagree, just because you hit/severe a spinal cord with a razor tip/bullet how does that instantly kill a deer???? Will hitting a deer in the spine behind its neck kill a deer with the same quickness as if i hit it in the lower spinal area? I wouldnt think it would. Please explain. Rob

The spianl cord is to make it simple the main message line between brain and the rest of the body, muscles, organs ect. If this line is broken the body cannot fuction. However you made a valued point, the farther back a spinal cord is severed the less main nerve damage there will be. Lets say you hit an animal in the middle of the back the front still will be fully functional possibly including the lungs and heart the animal only will be paralized in the back quarters possibly including the kidneys, liver and parts of the digestive system. However here we where talking about a neck shot and the spinal cord being severed in that area. A severd spinal cord in the neck will instantly paralize the entire body including all vital organs since all nerves to the body and organs are cut (disconnected) plus there will be a tremdeous blood loss to boost, causing brain death since the brain will not be supplied with oxygen anymore which is followed by death as outlined in an earlier posting, failing of ogans and final cardiac arrest. The collapse of the organs is caused in two ways by the disconection of the nerves from the motor (brain) and trough the loss of blood (oxygen). This sounds like a long process but in fact takes only mere seconds. This is not what I think happens but medical fact.

After I graduated from the Master Butcher School I studied zoology and animal behaviour for five years and a good part of this study was spent on vet.medicine and anatomy.

As I said in my earlier post we as hunters should not strive for such shots but at the same time if they do happen we need not to worry, provided the shot is in the neck or front quarter of the body the animal will expire quickly and painless. But if it makes a hunter feel better then there is most cetainly nothing wrong with shooting the animal again or drill another arrow into it but it will not alter the fact that this will only be a feel good shot, but that's alright too. Part of hunting is to do what feels good and right.

huntwriter
12-07-2005, 11:48 PM
never heard of this program where duz one find out about it? local archery club i guess?

Mark- here is the link to the IBEP (International Bowhunter Education Program) which is administered trough the National Bowhunter Foundation a American organization.
http://www.nbef.org/ (http://archeryweb.com/archery/ibep.htm)

Here is the address of the IBEB Instructor oF British Columbia:
Core De Boon -IBEP
CO Fort Saint John

phone: (250) 787-3429

However this education program is not very different from what you learned at the CORE course the only difference is that it more about bowhunting in particular and archery plus some international standards.

J_T
12-08-2005, 10:00 AM
Huntwriter, so your suggesting that my ex-wife that has a severed spinal cord (C3, 4 & 5) is dead? Hardly!! Keep in mind, C3 is only 2 down from the top. Exactly, EXACTLY, where is that on a deer?

An animal "lives" on the instinct to survive. And it will live if it has to, on 2 legs and 1/2 a lung.

To terminate the life of the animal using a bow, you MUST create deadly heamorhage. Or be extremely lucky.

Bowhunting should never consider death through the nervous system. Only to the cirulatory and respiratory systems. This is not a humble opinion. This is setting the record straight.

The International Bowhunting Eduction Program is an international program put on by the National Bowhunting Education Foundation. There are a number of instructors around the province. The BCAA and the TBBC both have a number of qualified instructors.

JT

huntwriter
12-08-2005, 11:32 AM
Huntwriter, so your suggesting that my ex-wife that has a severed spinal cord (C3, 4 & 5) is dead? Hardly!! Keep in mind, C3 is only 2 down from the top. Exactly, EXACTLY, where is that on a deer?

An animal "lives" on the instinct to survive. And it will live if it has to, on 2 legs and 1/2 a lung.

To terminate the life of the animal using a bow, you MUST create deadly heamorhage. Or be extremely lucky.

Bowhunting should never consider death through the nervous system. Only to the cirulatory and respiratory systems. This is not a humble opinion. This is setting the record straight.

The International Bowhunting Eduction Program is an international program put on by the National Bowhunting Education Foundation. There are a number of instructors around the province. The BCAA and the TBBC both have a number of qualified instructors.

JT
JT- First I am very sorry for your former wife and hope she will have a speedy recovery, my prayers are for her.

When I posted my explanation yesterday I acutally was contemplating to write about the difference between a simply severed spinal cord such as trough an accident in a car crash and similar cirumstances and a spinal cord which has been severed with force from the outside such as a sharp broadhead, knife or bullet. But then I thought that I made it quit clear what the cause of death is. Obviously I was wrong and apologize for that.

The disconection of the spinal cord will imobilize the animal. Death is caused by severe loss of blood and that is where the difference is. As your arrow or bullet enters and exits it also will cut the main blood vessels causing a cardiac arrest from exessive loss of blood. If only the spinal cord is disconected then there will be some bleeding to that can add aditional problems but rarely will the patient bleed to death because of it.

As I outlined above in this case death is not caused trough the nervous system but trough the loss of blood the circulatory system. If you are concerned about the pain factor then let me tell you that the imobilization of the nervous system is absolutly painless whereas trough the circulatory system there is much more pain registration. Besides animals are immensely though they can take much more pain until it registers in the brain than we can animals have a very high pain tolerance, in fact they can stand pain that would send you, me and everybody else into shock and coma. However, this shall my no means say that we should not care about inflicting pain to an animal or unnecessary prolong its death.

"Bowhunting should never consider death through the nervous system. Only to the cirulatory and respiratory systems. This is not a humble opinion. This is setting the record straight."

You are right and at no time ever did I suggest to anyone to strive for such a shot if you read my posts I made quit clear that this is not what we want. But it will happen to everyone who hunts long enough. We should strive to be the best we can be but "accidents" will happen sooner or later and it is better if we learn to live with it than to blast each other for something that happend by accident. If possible we should not try to be "holier than thou", especially not to newcomers but make them understand that things can and will go wrong and that this is okay too because we are humans not machines.

"Keep in mind, C3 is only 2 down from the top. Exactly, EXACTLY, where is that on a deer?"
Humans and mammals share the exact same skeleton with the only difference being the size and length of some bones. So to answer this question C3 in also by deer and other mammals on the same place as by humans only a little bigger because deer have longer necks and therefore also longer vertebras. Even a giraffe has the same number of vertebras as we humans. ;)


I hope this answers you question.
huntwriter

Walksalot
12-23-2005, 10:25 PM
I would never take a head or neck shot with my bow.