Ethical bowhunting

[Onesock]

I have read and posted a few times on the Xbow debate forum. Alot of people have varying opinions, and we are all entitled to that. Xbow hunters shooting animals at 75 yds, compound shooters at 80 yards, traditional shooters not being able to hit anything are all horror stories by someone. In my mind the big question is how to keep novice bowhunters, no matter what they shoot, from making bad shots and wounding game. Granted bowhunting is a blood sport and mistakes happen, to everyone. I think we all agree bowhunting is much more difficult than hunting with a rifle and shooting your bow 2 weeks before season opens just doesn't cut it. My question is what do we do to make sure hunters know what they are doing when they enter the bush with a Xbow, compound or traditional gear, when to shoot and when not to shoot, and that we are all as proficient with our weapon as possible?
Lets try and solve this question with positive input rather than mindless bashing of choices of hunting gear.

[Kirby]

Know your limits, your gears limits, and where a shot has to be made. Before I ever took a shot at an animal I was drilled on where to shoot, when to, when not to, I trained myself to constantly look at every animal I saw, and picture where I would shoot it, and if it was a good shot. Basic understanding on biology, and respect for game, and yourself are the keys to trainning new hunters.

Kirby

[Onesock]

How long did you have a bow and practise(learn how to bowhunt) before you actually went afield with your bow? Who did you learn from? Just curious.

[sealevel]

onesock you can`t legaslate common cense i think the best way is just posting on forums like this telling people getting them to practace shooting but most of all judgeing distance and reading game all that comes with expereance .

[Kirby]

Personally, I've been shooting bows since i was 8, started hunting grouse with my Micro Midas when I was 12, started deer hunting when I was 14, had my limit at 20 yards. I took my first animal with a bow at 16.

When I was 10 we built an second range at my house(this one an indoor range) so I would shoot 100+ arrows a day year round, when I was 14, I was averaging 200+ a day. At 16 I was on par with most adults at all comps that I went to.

Kirby

[Onesock]

Sealevel: you are right you can't legislate common sense. How do new guys learn what they have to learn before going hunting? Experience and time are required, as you say, but nowadays we have come to expect instant things and alot of bowhunters expect the same.

[Kirby]

When a new hunter hits the field, one can't expect much more than buck fever. No matter how much you read, shoot, etc nothing can truly compair to hunting. When somebody asks me for advice, I say, listen, learn, and understand. I can't expect a newbie hunter to perform the same as an experienced hunter, and wouldn't want someone to expect it of me when i was starting.

I missed one part, who I learnt from, was pretty much everybody who hunted, I read everthing I could get my hands on, my dad wasn't into hunting much, so I learnt from my neighbours, and books, I've been spending time in the field since I can remember.

Kirby

[ruger#1]

Now this is a good thread, people have to to be taught, and alot of them give up, because they do not under stand distances, i practice with my bow as much as i can, this year i didn't even take it out, you have to educate new hunters help them out like the old timers helped us out.we all started out green and the old timers helped us , i agree one sock you are going the right way, some day all we will have is bow hunting, and we need people like you to help us out . keep up the good work. Mark

[sealevel]

I love 3d shooting and it helps alot on judgeing distance but thats were the good ends. To make the shot harder we turn the critters at odd angles that you shoud never shoot at. So my thoughs are 3d can be good or bad depending on the way you think.

[brotherjack]

The short answer is, of course, education! In any given situation, not just hunting, the vast majority of people will do the right thing - IF they know what the right thing is...

So we know what we need to do (educate) - so let's brainstorm a little on that tangent:

I think a full page primer on bowhunting in the Synopsis - every year - would be a great idea. A paragraph or so for each of the various finer points (maximum ranges, shot placement, shots to avoid at all costs, tracking tips, tips for estimating distances, etc, etc) would be the kind of thing that any of your honest/well meaning types of hunters, especially those who are taking up bowhunting for the first time (our main target audience) would likely take a minute to read. Keep it short, sweet, and simple, but hit all the key points - especially the ethical points.

Another thought, as much as I really hate the idea of giving the government yet another form of control over us, I really think that some kind of course on bowhunting should be required. Something sort of like the Firearm's course, or the C.O.R.E., with the option for anyone who already knew their stuff able to challenge the test. We don't let people run around in the bush with rifles until they've shown some competence with the weapon, why should bows/crossbows be any different? As much hassle as it would be, it's pretty much the only way we can gurantee that EVERY guy in the bush with a bow has been told at least once in their life, that 80 yard shots are a horrible idea, as are quartering-to shots, etc.

Something that is already being done by at least Horton, and I presume other crossbow/bow makers, is the little instructional video that comes with every bow they sell. It goes over all the basics from target shooting to hunting - with emphasis on hunting. Again, it's something that well-meaning people will take a few minutes to digest. Any bow makers who are not including at least a pamphlet or something on bowhunting, could be encouraged to do so by us as a bowhunting community.

Also, as has been mentioned, virtually ALL of the new/green bowhunters are going to make mistakes. Everything from buck feever to inexperience is going against them the first time they let an arrow fly at an animal - no mater how hard they've studied and practiced and worked to be ready for that moment.
Let's as a community, try not to tear them down for those mistakes, but rather encourage them to learn and grow and do better. Every bowhunter that keeps trying, even after a failure or three, will someday grow up to be guys like those of you who have been doing this for many years now...

Anyway, gotta run - maybe some more ideas later...

[rock]

First time I ever shot a bow it was quite exciting, had trouble with hitting the target, but with help from a experianced bowhunter I learned the proper way to shoot. Distance is the hardest thing for most bowhunters a range finder is so handy, specially in the field . I never shot my first deer until I had been hunting for 3 yrs missed a few in those years hitting branches or small shooting lanes. But gained experiance from those years
which we as hunters never forget. Even set up my own 3d shoot in my back yard that was great for shooting, practice, practice, lots of it a great past time for myself as well as my son to practice. Most times our shots are pretty close within 30 yds or less good range for myself just a distance that I'm accurate at. I do more shooting in the spring than any other time of the year and thoroughly enjoy every minute or hour I get.

[J_T]

My question is what do we do to make sure hunters know what they are doing when they enter the bush with a Xbow, compound or traditional gear,

What I've read suggests that most people believe the answer lies within each of us. Is that the answer? Onesocks questions is "what do 'we' do to make sure...."

If we don't have bowhunting seasons, no one will bowhunt.
If we don't address issues pertaining to the eductation of each other, we risk the loss of any season (rifle or bow)
If bowhunters don't pursue bowhunting opportunities, no one will do it on their behalf.

We should attend shoots. There is no question, if you hunt with a bow, 3d shoots are a must. They are not a hunting situation in all cases, but they certainly do help.

If we know of others that are hunting with a bow, then we should encourage them to attend shoots as well. We should not shy away from taking our families to shoots. Kids learn early and well. Shooting becomes instinctive.

We should work with youth, volunteer time with scouts, schools and begin the education early. And we should support local and provincial bowhunting organizations. Through these associations we learn from talking, we learn from reading magazines, newsletters and websites.


primer on bowhunting in the Synopsis This is a great idea. I know that if bowhunters where to contribute something like this, it would likely be published. It is up to bowhunters.


some kind of course on bowhunting should be required. Something sort of like the Firearm's course Here we are back to an IBEP course. Most, jurisdictions require this (mandatory) to hunt with a bow. I am not a proponent for mandatory IBEP, however, if... to hunt with a bow, one did not have to take their CORE or Firearm safety, I would be willing to bet many would accept a mandatory IBEP.


JT

[oldtimer]

[quote=brotherjack]. We don't let people run around in the bush with rifles until they've shown some competence with the weapon, why should bows/crossbows be any different

Where in any of the CORE program do the students have to go out in the bush and show competence with their rifle ??????
All rookie hunters make mistakes. Period
the majority of hunters I have met over the last millenium have learned from their parents and their peers and we will continue to teach. In my case I taught my son rifle hunting and he taught me Bow Hunting. Good trade!!
Under no circumstances do we need any interference from our government. MIKE

[Onesock]

Oldtimer: The lot of us learned the same way, from fathers,uncles,older brothers,buddy's dad, you get the point. The way hunting is going our ranks are decreasing every year, soon there will be no "oldtimers" to teach the few who want to hunt. We, as hunters, are scrutinized on a far greater scale than we have ever been. If someone finds a wounded deer running around with an arrow in its head it will be on the front page of most newspapers. Like you say all rookie hunters make mistakes. I think we have try and stop new bowhunters from making these mistakes. I have found being pro-active is better than being re-active. I think if we as hunters can find someway to police our own ranks we will be in a better position to bargain with the govy for more bowhunting opportunity. From this forum so far, I assume mandatory IBEP, is not wanted.

[brotherjack]

Where in any of the CORE program do the students have to go out in the bush and show competence with their rifle ??????


Ummm... we don't make them run around in the bush (though there is quite a bit about running around in the bush in the CORE), but in either the CORE or the Firearms course, we DO make people prove they know which end of the gun the bullets come out of, how to keep from shooting themselves or others, and generally speaking; the basic rules for not being an idiot with a gun. While I am not at all fond of government involvement in my affairs (I am an ex-American after all!), I think this is a Good Thing (tm).

[oldtimer]

Ummm... we don't make them run around in the bush (though there is quite a bit about running around in the bush in the CORE), but in either the CORE or the Firearms course, we DO make people prove they know which end of the gun the bullets come out of, how to keep from shooting themselves or others, and generally speaking; the basic rules for not being an idiot with a gun. While I am not at all fond of government involvement in my affairs (I am an ex-American after all!), I think this is a Good Thing (tm).

Well brotherjack when we introduce people to archery we do teach them which end of the stick is the sharp one.Even with target and 3D arrows.Go to a JOP program and see how safety is stressed. No need for any outside regulatory involvement. Mike

[brotherjack]

Here we are back to an IBEP course. Most, jurisdictions require this (mandatory) to hunt with a bow. I am not a proponent for mandatory IBEP, however, if... to hunt with a bow, one did not have to take their CORE or Firearm safety, I would be willing to bet many would accept a mandatory IBEP.


Just curious - what are the arguments against having mandantory IBEP? I understand the whole government involvement thing. But, it seems to me like the most direct, straghtforward way to make sure EVERY guy in the bush with a bow has at least a baseline of knowledge about what they're doing there?

Or how about we bypass the whole idea of a course, and have a setup where it's a just a 'read this booklet, and then take this test' kind of thing. Could be taken care of in an hour or so, and at minimal cost. I think the main goal for this kind of effort, is not to make all the new guys know everything; it is just reach the point that EVERY guy in the bush with a bow has some reasonable baseline of knowledge. We're not talking really complicated stuff, just the the kinds of basics we wish everyone out there knew (ie: 80 yard shots are a Bad Idea (tm)).

Suggestions? Counter-thoughts?

Thoughts?

[brotherjack]

Well brotherjack when we introduce people to archery we do teach them which end of the stick is the sharp one.Even with target and 3D arrows.Go to a JOP program and see how safety is stressed. No need for any outside regulatory involvement. Mike

But I don't think that the people introduced to archery the way you're describing are by and large the problem audience we're wanting to get at here. Guys who are doing to 3D shoots and being mentored by Oldtimers such as yourself are probably not the same guys that are out there takeing 80 yard shots at quartering-towards animals and giving us all a bad name, you know what I mean?

[Onesock]

You are right BJ. The problem guys aren't the ones attending 3D shoots, learning to judge distance, what constitutes a good shot, and how to blood trail. The problem guys are the ones just picking up their weapon of choice a couple of weeks before the season, shooting a couple of bulls eyes at 50 yards and figuring there is nothing to this bowhunting. These are the guys we have need of teaching the ethics of bowhunting to. While you are in the minority, most of the uneducated bow hunters are crossbow shooters. Obviously most people don't want the mandatory IBEP, no matter how good it is. Finding a government body to run this test as you have described would be impossible. The simplest solution would be to put crossbows in the GOS and 99% of the problems would go away. And if the responsible crossbow shooter still wanted to hunt in the bow only season, of which you are probably one, you would pickup a compound bow.
Just out a matter of interest how many of us have ever seen a crossbow shooter practising his or her skills at a 3D shoot?

[brotherjack]

most of the uneducated bow hunters are crossbow shooters.

Hard to make judgements on what we've personally seen - but as I've commented before, all the crossbow hunters I've ever met simply don't fit that stereotype at all. That's ALL of the crossbow hunters I've ever met. I've never met this mythical moron with a crossbow that so many people talk about on these forums. I don't doubt that there are some yahoo's out there with crossbows, but honestly the only bowhunting yahoo's I've ever met were compound bow shooters.


Just out a matter of interest how many of us have ever seen a crossbow shooter practising his or her skills at a 3D shoot?

I would be pretty surprised if many/any crossbow guys wanted to do 3D shoots or join bowhunting clubs or any of those kinds of things; given the degree of anti-crossbow sentiment that seems pretty common amongst archery folks. From bowhunting magazines, on down to forums like this one, there is a tremendous amount of negativity directed at crossbows and crossbow shooters. When people don't feel welcome, they don't come. I wouldn't.

[oldtimer]

Merritt 3D shoot last year---------- 3 crossbow shooters good guys but got beat by the compound boys in scoring. he he he Mike

[willyqbc]

Just out a matter of interest how many of us have ever seen a crossbow shooter practising his or her skills at a 3D shoot?


Aside from the merritt shoot oldtimer mentioned there are precious few shoots that will even ALLOW a crossbow shooter on the the course. I took names and numbers from the X-bow shooter's in Merritt thinking that I would be able to invite them up to some of our shoots up here.... no go....both local clubs would not allow them on course. After checking several other shoots to see if they allowed them or not I found the same result....and nobody could give me a solid reason why being a compound shooter myself I still don't see what the problem is:???:

Chris

[Onesock]

Good point you fellas raised here. Why would Xbows not be welcomed at a 3D shoot? Maybe the vast majority of bowhunters feel Xbows are not legit archery tackle or maybe the top ranking compound shooters feel challenged by Xbow shooters.
Oldtimer- you say Xbow shooters were beat by compound shooters. This could open the door to many things. 1) Xbow shooters don't practise enough to hit what they are aiming at. 2) Xbow shooters don't feel welcome at 3D shoots as BJ has said. Who knows what other questions could be asked.
Brotherjack- just curious to know why you choose a Xbow to hunt with over a compound or traditional bow. I am not trying to raise hackles here only trying to understand the situation a little better.
Just curious to kn

[sealevel]

crossbows where welcome in summerland the same 3 showwed up that were at merrit they were welcome at enderbys shoot the same 3 welcome in salmon arm not one.Crossbows are welcome most places now.We give in salmon arm 6 bows as draws . If crossbow shooters would come we would in all likely hood would give away a crossbow but we need the numbers to go up. So to say crossbows are not welcome is crap.

[Onesock]

Willyqbc said very few shoots welcome Xbow shooters. I have found the same, never ever saw one at a shoot.

[sealevel]

Oldtimer if you remember a crossbow shooter kicked our but in the extreme shoot in merit only cause there was some shots like undera bush that was a lot easyer for a crossbow than a compound .

[Nails]

Bowhunting ethics and fair chase both fit together for an exceptional hunt. Bowhunting is a sport of inches (feet) not yards. The closer we are in harvesting our game is what bowhunting is in its purest form apart from choice of bow. Bowhunting is not how far we shoot but how close you were. Our freezers my not get as full but we are hunting for more than just the kill.

Personally I took the IBEP in 97 and believe it should be a requirement to hunt with archery equipment. For those who have not taken it, this is a one day course. You recieve very informative sessions eg. on how a broadhead works, shot placement (different from gun), ethical shots and how a bow works, just to name a few of the sessions covered. Worth every penny and a great place to meet other like minded hunters.

Ethical Bowhunting is many things to the masses but for me, walking out of the woods at the end of the day with my head held high, thats Ethical Bowhunting.

[brotherjack]

Brotherjack- just curious to know why you choose a Xbow to hunt with over a compound or traditional bow. I am not trying to raise hackles here only trying to understand the situation a little better.
Just curious to kn

As for me; I suppose there was a variety of reasons I could point to, but two were top of the list:

Price: I am officially poor (thus sayeth my tax return), and $129.99 on eBay for a decent (Horton) crossbow beat the heck out of $400+ for a barely mediocore compound bow setup. Pretty much any crossbow is significantly cheaper than any vaguely comparable traditional or compound bow.

My wife: she wanted to bowhunt with me, and after letting her try a 50lb bow I borrowed from a friend, it was real obvious that she doesn't have the upper body strength to pull one.

[brotherjack]

Crossbows are welcome most places now.... So to say crossbows are not welcome is crap.
Ummm... you can say that, but until bowhunters quit ranting about how crossbows are really rifles, and how they should be kept out of the bush during bow season, and how lazy all us crossbow shooters are, etc, etc, etc, there is no PERCEPTION on the part of us x-bow shooters that we are welcome. I don't even bother to mention that I'm a crossbow hunter on any new forums I join, because no sooner do I mention that, and somebody has a problem with it they feel the need to vent, and then we get these ugly 'crossbow wars' threads. So no, it's not crap, it's just what the world looks like from my side of the fence.

[Awishanew]

The next few TBBC magazines will have articles on arrow lethality by Dr. Ed Ashby. It has a tremendous amount of information. Unfortunatly they are not for distrubation but are a quarterly magazine for TBBC members. But it only takes $25.00 per year to join. Not realy a plug but seriously there is alot of info.

[oldtimer]

Sea Level---- If you remeber Merritt some of the extreme shots were shots that nobody would normally take and the category is an option not governed by guidelines for groups. Some shots were downright nasty. LOL
MIKE

[sealevel]

I have no problem with crossbows but i am starting to have a problem with you wineing about the way crossbows are treated brotherjack most clubs in sothern bc will welcome crossbows but we need crossbow shooters to work at shooting don`t wait for compound and recurve shooters to make your shoots possible for you.What i say to you bj is organize yourselfs cause no one is going to do it for you.

[brotherjack]

I have no problem with crossbows but i am starting to have a problem with you wineing about the way crossbows are treated brotherjack

Well, you said that my views were 'crap', and simply I explained to you why, as far as I can see, they are very valid. If you consider that whining, then I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. ;)

[PGKris]

I didn't read any of the middle posts but here's some tips for first timers/rookies:
1) Get a rangefinder. Period. None of this guessing bullcrap. That's great on the 3D course but if you want to be ethical, KNOW your distance.
2) Practice all summer. And in august before the season starts, practice in your camo and all your hunting gear. Practice like you would hunt.
3) Know your limits. If you don't want to shoot over 40 meters, DON'T! I had a big mulie standing broadside to me at 50 meters, bang on distance I sighted in at. My farthest shot. And let me tell you, that was a LOOONG way. I didn't take it. I just didn't feel comfortable with shooting that far, even though I had practiced it. I think my absolute max shot for a deer would be 40m and for a moose 50m.
4) Don't let other people pressure you into taking trophies/long shots or trying things you don't think you can do. Just shoot at what you KNOW you can hit. Things go wrong, yes. But you can do your damndest to make sure they don't.
KRIS

(PS: Get a rangefinder!!!!)

[oldtimer]

PGKRIS--- You and I feel the same way as far as what distance we would shoot at. good to know . I have often thought about a moose at 60 but don't know what I would do if the opportunity ever arose. MIKE

[PGKris]

I tell you man, that deer was some kind of small at 50m!! I can hit them 8's and 10's all day on the practice course but actually looking at the bugger in the field was something entirely different. The whole aspect of "Oh my God, what happens if I screw it up" starts rolling around in your head. Too many "if's" at that kind of distance. I would shoot a moose at 50 without more than a minute's hesitation because the kill zone is so huge. But with a deer......not until I get more under my belt. Be a long while till I feel that confident.
KRIS