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Ddog
11-18-2005, 03:17 AM
OK here goes it..i am just trying to get a little response from people who hunt with bows..maybe a little bit of arguement...
I am a bowhunter i use a compound bow and the reason for this is because i like to be upclose and personal so to speak.. i like seeing the animal come to me from distances or sneeking in and getting a shot. i do not like the idea of people buying crossbows because they are gun hunters and get an extra couple of weeks of hunting...or get a shot at an either sex season.
What I Think..
I think in the archery only seasons CROSSBOWS should be dis-allowed unless of a medical reason or a junior hunter or 65yrs of age or older.
I have been going to the Christian and Kettle valleys for the past 12 years and it used to be strictly compound and traditonal bows. the last few years has seen such an increase of crossbows it isnt even funny. and i haven't seen one of them actually go into the bush and hunt..all they do is drive their trucks or quads or snowmobiles up and down the roads consistenly. and taking shots a 60 yards (wich i have witnessed).
I am thoroughly disgusted. I am also disgusted in the elk hunt that i had planned for over a year was the same way, once the regs came out and it was an "any elk" season in the kootenays my buddy (who lives there) phoned me and said it might be bad cause of that.When i arrived the day before the season we ran into at least 8 hunters that bought crossbows within the last few months and a few just a week before and one that bought it two days before to get to take down an elk. When i brought my elk to the butcher up there on day 7 there were a few in there that were all crossbow kills.
So ....tell me what do you think? Should crossbows be diasallowed in an archery only season? I mean after all we are hunting for the love of the sport and to put some meat in the freezer and i don't think a crossbow should be considered archery.

sealevel
11-18-2005, 06:17 AM
There not a lot of arguments on this forum except for this topic we had about a 10 page argument a while back so you mite not get a lot of response.

buckslayer
11-18-2005, 08:34 AM
So ....tell me what do you think? Should crossbows be diasallowed in an archery only season? I mean after all we are hunting for the love of the sport and to put some meat in the freezer and i don't think a crossbow should be considered archery.
What do you think it should be considered? You hold it like a rifle so it must be one then even though it has the same effective range of a compound bow, you need to be able to estimate ranges like a bow and the arrow drops like a bow. Yes it is easier to learn to shoot than a compound or traditional bow but its stil a bow .

You will find idiots hunting with everything what about gun hunters who dont practice make poorly placed shots miss ,wound and loose game or shoot the sh** out of an animal do they have any more right to be out there than a crossbow hunter? I feel that everyone should have to prove that they are proficient with whatever weapon they choose to hunt with this would lead to a lot less lost and wounded animals out there. So before you go bashing the roughly 1% of ppl who hunt with a crossbow take a look at the whole picture.

Thats my opinion take it or leave it (by the way i hunt with a compound bow)
Buckslayer

Onesock
11-18-2005, 08:34 AM
Here Here. I agree. No crossbows in the archery only seasons. I may be willing to bet the any elk season for archery in the Kootenays may be changed next year because of what you just said. It would be shame if this happened but who knows.

harbinger
11-18-2005, 09:38 AM
hmmmm what a coincidence, i was just thinking about getting a crossbow so I could hunt region five for the dec archery season For next year. I geuss if your hunting bow only because of all the reasons you listed I can understand being bitter about crossbow hunters. something I have wondered before is why do the archery guys get their own season anyways? Was it soemthing that was lobbied for?
How far can a crossbow shoot?
If i am going to hunt the archery season I would rather get a crossbow, just don't have time for a new sport like archery anytime soon. It is too bad you feel the way you do. Some of the guys you see out there are probably good guys who are just making the most out of a great hunting opportunity. Jeez, if it is any elk in the Kootneys for bow only that is a pretty tempting reason to buy a crossbow and go whack one, elk meat is awesome. I think the crossbow should stay in bow only season.

J_T
11-18-2005, 10:21 AM
Seems we only just finish this debate/discussion and it comes up again as so many threads get hijacked to the point of crossbows and their use.

British Columbia is relatively unique in providing crossbows within the archery only season. Many hunters, depending on their background are opposed or in favour of crossbows in the archery season.

Most archery related organizations in BC (primarily the UBBC), accept the crossbow as archery tackle to be used in the archery season. However, due to its efficiency and ease of transition from rifle to the bow season, there is an awareness for concern that an increase in bowhunting/archery only seasons, might be compromised by an increase in rifle hunter transitions.

In Alberta, the Director of the Fish and Wildlife Branch stated that one of the reasons crossbows are not allowed within the archery only season is that it is the primary tool of poachers and they were able to reduce poaching by removing crossbows from the archery season. (His words, not mine)

Most jurisdictions in the states do not allow crossbows in the archery season unless the hunter has a disability.

In British Columbia, we have unique hunting settings, and tend toward managing the hunter through LEH, rather than weapons seasons.

In my opinion, I want responsible hunters hunting. Regardless of the weapon. IF, there is a trend for hunters to buy a crossbow, just before opening day to take advantage of a bow only season, then I support a mandatory IBEP to manage naive hunters.

I do not support LEH as a means of managing wildlife. LEH is becoming the death of hunting. I would rather see weapons seasons implemented to manage harvests and hunters. At this point I'm not very worried about where crossbows sit within seasons.

JT

oldtimer
11-18-2005, 10:27 AM
I have to agree with Sea Level--- this is the most discussed topic on this site. My 2 cents; Being a 100 % bow hunter and an avid 3D shooter and a beginner FITA shooter I feel i have some idea about what constitutes a bow. I have seen crossbows at 3D shoots as well as out hunting and my opinion is they are a bow. Period. !!!! I doubt I would ever want one but so what !! I didn't want a big bore rifle when I hunted with a rifle , so what !! My opinion. MIKE

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 10:38 AM
i do not like the idea of people buying crossbows because they are gun hunters and get an extra couple of weeks of hunting...

So ....tell me what do you think? Should crossbows be diasallowed in an archery only season? I mean after all we are hunting for the love of the sport and to put some meat in the freezer and i don't think a crossbow should be considered archery.
I think a bow is a bow is a bow, and crossbows, recurve, stick, and compound, and any kind I'm forgetting here should all be allowed. Putting a bow on the end of a stick doesn't change the fact that it's a bow - limbs, string tension, arrows, broadheads, etc. It maybe it makes it a little easier to get proficient with, and it definitely makes it possible for people like my wife to hunt in the bow season because she can't comfortably pull even a 40lb bow (minimum legal to hunt with). But it's still a bow.

Here's some facts about a crossbow.

40 yards is still the longest ethical shot you can take, and all the crossbow makers I'm aware of recommend 20 yards or less as the preferred range. So you get no advantage of distance. People who think otherwise are uneducated.

The whole 'movement spooking' issue. Unless you sit there with the bow pre-aimed as the critter approaches, you still have to bring the crossbow up to shoot the animal (which involves moving). Just twitching your nose is enough to spook a critter that's within bow range. So whether you're just bringing up the crossbow, or coming to full draw with your u-pull-it - you're going to spook WAY more critters than you get to shoot (at). I spook probably a dozen for every one I got a shot at.

Skill at shooting. Some people have told me that high end bows like the Excalibur's and such you can take home, sight in, and go hunting with. I haven't ever owned an Excalibur (and on my budget, I probably never will), so I don't know about that (though I also know guys who own Excal's and said it was not at all a slam-dunk to shoot straight with them back when they started). I shoot a little bottom of the line Horton, and I had to put in a lot of practice, learn a lot of little tricks and tips, and do a good bit of trial and error with arrow weights, heads, and the like before I could just pick it up and thump an arrow right where I wanted it. Now that it's tuned, and I know all the tricks, I could probably coach someone into shooting it pretty straight in an afternoon. While we're on this topic - a buddy of mine got me shooting 2-ish inch groups with his compound bow in an afternoon of coaching too. I think a crossbow is probably a little easier, but if you got a pro-shop to tune up a compound for you with an advanced sighting system, that's pretty darn easy too.


Anyway, I could go on about how you still have to know how to estimate your yardage, still have to watch out for twigs and such, you still have to worry about string-jumping by the critter, and all the other issues - but you get the point I'm making - there is not really much if any advantage to using a crossbow over a regular bow - despite what uneducated people may think and/or say.

If I read between the lines of your post, I see your real problem. Your real problem is that you've seen people with crossbows behaving unethicly, and heard lots of stories about people with crossbows behaving unethicly, so in your mind, you've connected the weapon in question to the behavior you detest. Newsflash - me, and every crossbow hunter I know - we all would have the same problems you have with unethical behavior! And yeah, you probably don't notice a lot of guys deep in the bush wearning camo and being still and quiet with their crossbow in their lap (because they're deep in the bush in camo being still and quiet!), and yeah the moron's driving up and down the road are easy to spot. But BEHAVIOR is not a problem of the weapon in question. Behavior is just a problem period.

I personally think anyone who wants to bowhunt (be it crossbow, or otherwise) needs to be required to take a course or challenge a test, so they're aware of things like effective ranges, how to place a shot with an arrow for a clean kill, why anything other than a broadside or slightly quartering away is a unethical shot, etc, etc, etc. The reason you get uneducated people out in the bush making poor choices is because they're uneducated. If you want to change the behavior, you have to educate them. And even after the education, some people will do whatever unethical thing they want, no mater what weapon they're using. That's why we have law enforcement.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

rrfred
11-18-2005, 10:51 AM
hi, been there- done that; successfully hunted with several types of archery tackle including the xbows. no issue about the use of xbows in archery season - my complaint is for those crossover people who do not understand the functional limits of archery tackle and expect to go drop an animal with an xbow,sometimes at at ridiculous ranges.
Archery hunting(pick your choice of tackle here)by its nature requires time, patience, commitment; plus hunting and tracking skills. Yes - its easier to get on target with an xbow but the ranges; limitations are the same as regular bows; and the follow up requirements after the shot are the same. My vote is for IBEP- mandatory bowhunter education and seperate archery licensing. Let's not bash the use of the tackle, lets look at the real issues... cheers rrfred

Onesock
11-18-2005, 11:23 AM
No ofeence to you Harbinger as I only use you as only an example. You stated you would buy a Xbow because it was easy to use and you don't have time to practise with a real bow. This complaint is the reason this topic is so hot. It is people like yourself we are trying to keep out of bow only season's. I agree 100% about the IBEP course being mandatory for bowhunters, but this probably isn't going to happen. As alot of hunters have said we are regulated to death now and not very many guys want to
take more courses. The only other alternative is to take Xbows out of archery seasons.
All archery seasons have been lobbied for for many years. Bowhunters have fought the long hard battle to get these seasons. Bowhunting is supposed to be a short range sport (pardon the word) and with uneducated newbies trying to shoot 50-70 meters we could be in danger of loosing what we have fought so hard to gain.
Once again no offence to you harbinger I only use you as an example.

islandhunter
11-18-2005, 11:29 AM
well put rrfred, the crossbow takes much of the same talent as any other bow except that you hold it differently. it might be a bit easier to shoot right away but still, you're not gonna go out and bag a deer on your first day! any type of bowhunting is much tougher than rifle hunting. Thats why crossbows are allowed in the bow season.

Ddog
11-18-2005, 11:29 AM
100% disagree that a crossbows range is the same as compound,ethically maybe, but i have talked to dozens of people who hunt with crossbows and they say that they have and will shoot at distances of 70 and 80yards without hesitation.. i have seen groupings in targets at a distance of 65 yards 6 bolts all touching and two robin hoods...65 yards! it is far easier to shoot than a bow..Requires way less movement and has a stock like a rifle and a trigger and a scope..
i dont disagree with those who hunt with a crossbow or rifle for that matter..i just disagree that it is allowed in archery only seasons.If one wants to hunt with a crossbow then hunt with it all season not just the early or late seasons...
i have never met one crossbow hunter that hunts with it for more than the early or late season..not 1

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 11:31 AM
I suggest that bow hunters should be careful how many people they work to 'keep out' of bowhunting, or someday they may find there's not enough bowhunters to keep bow seasons from being closed alltogether...

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 11:44 AM
i have never met one crossbow hunter that hunts with it for more than the early or late season..not 1
If we're going to base this on what we have personally seen - I have personally run into two different hunters deep in the bush during rifle season carying crossbows (one of them on several occasions - he hunts two of the same areas I frequent). I have never run into anyone carying a compound or traditional bow in the bush during rifle season. All the crossbow hunters I know personally don't take shots past 40 yards because of the ethics involved (some of us won't even shoot past about 25), but I know several guys who shoot compound bows that can hammer beautiful groups at 70 yards. They shoot (at) critters at those kinds of yardage too, and brag about what awesome archers they are because they have put in the practice to be such great shots at long ranges. The only traditional bow shooter I know misses animals all the time, because he says a traditional bow is harder to shoot straight with, but he likes the challenge of it all.

So, if you wanted to make laws based on my personal experience, crossbow hunters are far more ethical than compound or traditional bow shooters. Therefore I feel that nobody but crossbow hunters should be allowed to hunt during bow season. It's just not fair to the animals to do otherwise! We should start a crossbow hunters lobby, and convince the politicians to outlaw the use of anything but crossbows during bow season.


P.S. - in case you didn't notice, I'm being sarcastic - I don't really think that anyone should be bared from bowhunting, regardless of the tackle. :biggrin:

J_T
11-18-2005, 11:48 AM
BJ,

I suggest that bow hunters should be careful how many people they work to 'keep out' of bowhunting, or someday they may find there's not enough bowhunters to keep bow seasons from being closed alltogether...

While I agree with the intention of your statement, you make an assumption that a "potential" new crossbow hunter is contributing to the establishment of a season.

There are 10,000 hunters that checked off the bowhunter box on their license last year. Through careful research we estimate there are almost 20,000 bowhunters in the province. (Renn, 2004, Bowhunting: An Effective but Overlooked Tool for Wildlife Mangement in British Columbia)

Hunting opportunities are established using existing data, it is through a hunter's recognition of an increased opportunity that a transition from one weapon type (rifle) to another (bow) occurs. This increase in numbers presents a risk that must be managed.

I would submit that rather than a season be lost, the bowhunters relationship with MOE would result in weapons restrictions, should unacceptable activity or harvest numbers occur.

JT

J_T
11-18-2005, 11:53 AM
So, if you wanted to make laws based on my personal experience, crossbow hunters are far more ethical than compound or traditional bow shooters. Therefore I feel that nobody but crossbow hunters should be allowed to hunt during bow season.

Ouch, take the gloves off. Or what? Even in jest.

Personal experience isn't really relative to any of these discussions.

I met a man..... that shot a mule deer (from his quad) with a crossbow at 108 yards. His fourth bolt fired from a crossbow - ever. A "Hail Mary" he called it. His first shot was at 40 yards.

My effective range on an elk, is 20 yards. My effective range on a whitetail, is 15 yards.

The difference is not in one weapon being effective really, but the impact the range has on opportunity and ultimately on harvest numbers. Risk.

JT

Onesock
11-18-2005, 12:08 PM
If a person could pick only one weapon to hunt with what would it be? I don't think too many guys are married to the Xbow for more than a couple of days a year.

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 12:18 PM
Ouch, take the gloves off. Or what? Even in jest.

Personal experience isn't really relative to any of these discussions.


I know, that was my point - all this talk about how "I saw this crossbow hunter do...." blah blah some unethical thing, with the subsequent conclusion (or implication) that crossbows shouldn't be allowed in bow season is, to me, just as silly.

I mean, if we wanted to get really ugly about it - rifle hunters could start a lobby for the elimination of bow seasons, becuase they could say that a rifle is a far more humane way to harvest an animal than a bow (and I think that's actually true, which would make it a pretty easy argument).

My opinion, is that all such bickering and whining is just crap. We're all hunters, and we need to all be working for the furthering of the ethics and popularity and viability of hunting. If there are rampant ethical problems - then we need to educate and enforce to work on that. If there are managment issues relating to an influx of new bowhunters, then let's manage those issues and again, educate the new guys (and gals) to handle these things. I think the issues involved in having more hunters (of any stripe) is a problem we'd like to have, rather than having fewer and fewer until someday the tree-huggers get hunting outlawed alltogether.

All of this, IMHO, of course. :)



I met a man..... that shot a mule deer (from his quad) with a crossbow at 108 yards. His fourth bolt fired from a crossbow - ever. A "Hail Mary" he called it. His first shot was at 40 yards.

My effective range on an elk, is 20 yards. My effective range on a whitetail, is 15 yards.

The difference is not in one weapon being effective really, but the impact the range has on opportunity and ultimately on harvest numbers. Risk.


You seemed to get my point, but then you go right back to pointing to the unethical behavior you have seen as part of the problem? ....

Anyway... I'm probably being a bit of a jerk, for which I apologize. :)


And while I was jesting, that's really the truth about my experience with the various forms of bowhunter. I even had a buddy who shoots a compound bow give me some serious grief because I wouldn't practice at 80 yards with my crossbow. "How are you got to shoot that 7 point bull elk at 80 yards with confidence when that's the only shot you get, if you've never practiced?" he says... "Becuase I won't shoot him at 80 yards if that's the only shot I get" says I...

rrfred
11-18-2005, 12:53 PM
Long range, stationary targets for fun, sure; used to practice at long distances too- experienced or properly trained bowhunters know the score. Long shots as previously mentioned are not for wary game animals however; dont forget the time of flight issue and speed of game reactions, a lot can happen in the lag time between arrival of the sound in 1/10 second, and the 3/4 to 1 second it takes for the bolt /arrow to arrive...

J_T
11-18-2005, 02:44 PM
BrotherJack,


My opinion, is that all such bickering and whining is just crap. We're all hunters, and we need to all be working for the furthering of the ethics and popularity and viability of hunting. If there are rampant ethical problems - then we need to educate and enforce to work on that. If there are managment issues relating to an influx of new bowhunters, then let's manage those issues and again, educate the new guys (and gals) to handle these things. I think the issues involved in having more hunters (of any stripe) is a problem we'd like to have, rather than having fewer and fewer until someday the tree-huggers get hunting outlawed alltogether.

I have to agree with you.

The difficulty with the written word is that you can not always see the tongue in cheek or the tone that something is spoken. So much of good communication is visual.

I did get your meaning, and my pull on the 108 yard shot (true story) was just me comin back at ya.

However, regarding your statement above. I too believe, we are all "hunters". Period. Hunters. And we should work together in regards to, conservation, youth, wildlife, wildlife management, hunter recruitment. I get that, and so do you.

At no time, when I have read your posts, or responded to your posts have I thought otherwise. Good debate, takes time, and effort to present one's views. And in the end, we all learn something.

I am a member of two provincial organizations that believe the above (that we are all hunters and should work together) The TBBC and the UBBC. The TBBC, focus on conservation, working with government authorities and partnering with other agencies (RMEF, CBF&WCP, CBT) to further enhance wildlife. The UBBC is a lobby interest group that pulls its efforts into providing government with innovative and creative hunting opportunities. Yes, for bowhunting. Both organizations strive to provide a better understanding of hunter ethics.

I have worked many years with the BCWF and - no offence to anyone - if you want to really make a difference, the BCWF is set to firmly into its binding constitution to be effective in "some" matters.

I believe: Limited Entry Hunting, gun registration, a lack of social acceptance and a lack of innovation by the hunting advisory groups (combined with an aging demographic) is a reason hunting is dying. I want to work toward new and exciting hunting opportunities and manage the issues of harvest, hunter recruitment and social license & First Nations issues as we do so.

Good debate is required. Educating each other, is required. Patience, is required.

JT

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 03:06 PM
If a person could pick only one weapon to hunt with what would it be? I don't think too many guys are married to the Xbow for more than a couple of days a year.

Vaguely on the same topic - I don't know a single compound/traditional bowhunter who doesn't put the bow in the closet the day rifle season opens.

Ddog
11-18-2005, 03:06 PM
hmmm..all i wanted was a little input on this issue and perhaps a small argument of wich i didnt mean bash anybodies hunting methods.i can tell brotherjack is a crossbow hunter..and if i offended you i apologize. and you do have to admit that most crossbow hunters are only at it a couple of times a year.
how long have you owned a crossbow BJ?
I am a Bowhunter, strictly a bow!

Onesock
11-18-2005, 03:13 PM
Contrary to what you believe BJ, most "bow hunters" that I know don't pick up a gun ever.

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 03:15 PM
I too believe, we are all "hunters". Period. Hunters. And we should work together in regards to, conservation, youth, wildlife, wildlife management, hunter recruitment.

Amen! Now we're gettin down to where it's really at!



I am a member of two provincial organizations that believe the above (that we are all hunters and should work together) The TBBC and the UBBC. The TBBC, focus on conservation, working with government authorities and partnering with other agencies (RMEF, CBF&WCP, CBT) to further enhance wildlife. The UBBC is a lobby interest group that pulls its efforts into providing government with innovative and creative hunting opportunities. Yes, for bowhunting. Both organizations strive to provide a better understanding of hunter ethics.

You got some URL's for those organizations?



I believe: Limited Entry Hunting, gun registration, a lack of social acceptance and a lack of innovation by the hunting advisory groups (combined with an aging demographic) is a reason hunting is dying. I want to work toward new and exciting hunting opportunities and manage the issues of harvest, hunter recruitment and social license & First Nations issues as we do so.


Again, amen! Let's spend our time working on the real problems facing us, not fighting over what kind of arrow launcher should/shouldn't be legal (or other equally silly points of division amongst ourselves we might find to argue over).

islandhunter
11-18-2005, 03:15 PM
where do you dream this up onesock?????

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 03:16 PM
Contrary to what you believe BJ, most "bow hunters" that I know don't pick up a gun ever.
See my earlier comments about the (ir)relevance of personal experience when we're defining a demographic. I didn't mean to imply that was my belief, I was just continuing with a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasam I had started in an earlier post... (though it is true, of the various bowhunters I know, I don't know any who don't put down the bow come opening day of rifle season).

mgnm300
11-18-2005, 04:04 PM
same old story,,,why would anyone bring a knife (bow) to a gun fight?? lol i'm a bowhunter and i look forward to the late season every year, so i'd like to keep the bow season,,i usually don't hunt deer anymore during rifle season even tho i own about 17 firearms and 1 bow,, but i DO take my kids out since they love the sport that i showed them and that they grew up with.so for the love of the sport let's not spoil it for everyone,wether one hunts with a bow,crossbow or a gun.

oldtimer
11-18-2005, 05:12 PM
Vaguely on the same topic - I don't know a single compound/traditional bowhunter who doesn't put the bow in the closet the day rifle season opens.

Well Brother jack you know one now!! Willy or Swamper can attest to the fact that all I hunt with is a compound bow . Mike

Gateholio
11-18-2005, 05:16 PM
Crossbows are, and should be kept, legal to hunt with during archery seasons.

Elitism stinks.:mrgreen: 8)

brotherjack
11-18-2005, 05:58 PM
i can tell brotherjack is a crossbow hunter..

I am a hunter. Period. If they had a wet-noodle season, I'd take to the field in a heartbeat if I had practiced and was proficient enough with said noodle to put some meat on the table. :biggrin:

Every day spent in the bush hunting - be it with camera, crossbow, rifle, or otherwise - is a good day in my book. When I get the chance to schedule my life, I try to fit in as many good days as I can. ;)

Onesock
11-18-2005, 06:29 PM
ISLAND HUNTER: I never dream about these things. Bowhunters I know don't hunt with guns anymore. Bowhunters aren't guys that hunt with a bow for 2 weeks and then pickup guns, these hunters are called opportunists, and there is nothing wrong with it. Just don't be confused about the proper terminology. Bowhunters are bowhunters.

ruger#1
11-18-2005, 06:40 PM
instead of fighting about this stupid crap, lets all band together and fight the lieberal government that is trying to tear hunting all apart. next they will try to register bows and arrows. then the stupid animal cruelty act, you guys sound like a broken record. hell you wine and bitch more than my wife!

Gateholio
11-18-2005, 08:11 PM
I noticed that some folks have mentioned that it's hard to express themselves in the printed form, which is certainly true.

We have some forum 'tools' to help convey emotion, tongue in cheek remarks or jokes etc.


:D 8-) :tongue:

Etc..

They aen't perfect,but they do convey jokes etc a little better...:wink:

greybark
11-18-2005, 09:55 PM
ISLAND HUNTER: I never dream about these things. Bowhunters I know don't hunt with guns anymore. Bowhunters aren't guys that hunt with a bow for 2 weeks and then pickup guns, these hunters are called opportunists, and there is nothing wrong with it. Just don't be confused about the proper terminology. Bowhunters are bowhunters.


:D Generally I agree with Onesock on this one.I know of two or three bowhunters that hunt with rifle and bow and see nothing wrong with that. However when they are hunting with their bows they are bowhunting. The rest of my hunting community hunt only with their Traditional BOWS like I do and we referr to ourselves as "traditional bowhunters". I referr to a compound bowhunter as a "modern bowhunter " and those who use crossbows as "crossbow hunters". In other words use what you want and be proud of it !!!
:biggrin: Sounds straight foward to me and I`ve been on a learning curve for 66 years and now beginning to forget what it was that I learned.

ruger#1
11-18-2005, 10:02 PM
greybark you are a very { wise man }
that has respect for hunting being gun or bow, and i respect that. thank you.

oldtimer
11-18-2005, 10:22 PM
WELL SAID GREYBARK !!!! From one senior to another.
THAT SHOULD BE THE END OF THIS MUCH DISCUSSED SUBJECT

MIKE

harbinger
11-19-2005, 04:12 AM
hey, if crossbows are open to use ONLY during bow season are you allowed to use a bow during rifle season?:?:

huntwriter
11-19-2005, 05:57 AM
:D Generally I agree with Onesock on this one.I know of two or three bowhunters that hunt with rifle and bow and see nothing wrong with that. However when they are hunting with their bows they are bowhunting. The rest of my hunting community hunt only with their Traditional BOWS like I do and we referr to ourselves as "traditional bowhunters". I referr to a compound bowhunter as a "modern bowhunter " and those who use crossbows as "crossbow hunters". In other words use what you want and be proud of it !!!
:biggrin: Sounds straight foward to me and I`ve been on a learning curve for 66 years and now beginning to forget what it was that I learned.
greybark- My hat goes off to you. We as hunters need more folks like you. WE ARE ALL HUNTERS but we all have different methodes of hunting and that is a very good thing too. There is no such thing that the choice of weapon makes for a better or more ethical hunter. Yes, some weapons are easier to master, so what! Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

What we do with all that pickering of who is better and who is more of a hunter is to deliver the food to the anti hunters they been waiting to get from us. Devided we fall united we will win this battle against the anties, the anti gunners and the morally bankrupt liberals.

Someone mentioned that the anties view bowhunting as cruel. You are right. In America they started a big multi million campaign against the bowhunter using the pickering of the bowhunters as evidence.

I hunt with a bow compound, traditional and cross bow in the bow season the rest of the season I hunt with rifle, muzzleloader and shotgun, becuase I can and because first and foremost I am a hunter and I do not see why I shall limit my short time of hunting even more by choosing only one weapon to hunt with. I respect all hunters regardless of the choice of there weapon.

Stop fighting lets go hunting and fieght together for our rights. Hunting is a basic human right so to speak because as humans we are hunters by our very nature since the beginning of times. Kings and politicans made it a privilege to gain power over us.

huntwriter
11-19-2005, 06:30 AM
...I mean after all we are hunting for the love of the sport and to put some meat in the freezer and i don't think a crossbow should be considered archery.

No direspect to you Ddog, but this paragraph alone devalues the entire comment to nothing more than ignorance and disrespect for others.

What you are basically saying with this alone is that you as a bowhunter hunt for the love of the sport while all others do it out of what ever reason but love for the sport. Think about for a minute how unjust and arrogant this sounds and how that makes other hunters feel. I know dedicated hunters from every choice of weaponry. I also have known my fair share of slobs even amongst traditional bowhunters but I wouldn't dare judge all because of a few or God forbid advocate more laws and restrictions, there are way to many of these as it is now.

As a fellow hunter I respect the dedication you have for bowhunting and ask of you to have a little respect for others to, respect goes a long way and opens many doors.;)

huntwriter
11-19-2005, 07:20 AM
A few members here advocate mandatory IBEP. Why on earth would we want more mandatory obligations to hassle the majority of good people. We do not need more laws and obligations. We need the existing laws enforced by the courts. More laws never stopped bad people, enforced laws do. Do we relly want to end up with a system like in Europe where hunting has become a sport for the elite? Where hunters have to go trough stict multible testing which very expensieve. Where hunters have to belong to a club which supervies the hunters and tells them when and where they can go hunting? Where as a hunter you have to be of social standing with a well paded bank acount? I don't think so. That is the reson why the settlers of North America made hunting available to everyone and we are now about to give that freedom away to the government and hunting organizations.

Hunter Education has not made one iota of difference as a recent study has very clearly shown. Hunting always has been one of the safest sports much safer than tennis and basketball even before hunter education. As for ethics, this cannot be taught in a course. Manadtory Hunter Education, according to the study, is the single cause why hunter numbers have gone down. Some states in America used to have weapon proficiency tests but they did quickly away with it because, again, it made no iota of difference. Being a slob is a character thing not an education thing regardless of education once a person is alone it is his and his choice alone. Have car driving education and proficiency tests made trafic safer? Nope! so what makes us think Hunter Education will?

In realizing all these things more and more American states go back and make hunter education as a free choice. Of cource hunter education organizations will tell you different because to them it is a huge income revenue that is why they suported mandatory education and continue to do so, money talks. Hunter education is good but it never should be mandatory no sport has mandatory education and as I said there are far more dangerous sports to partispate in, heck, even ballroom dancing according to the accident statistics is more dangerous than hunting. In fact the statistics had to put hunting and shooting sport together to come up with decent figure of 0.02% per 1000 participants as a comparison tennis has 10% per 1000 paticipants.

In my humble opinion we as hunters should stop looking down on us, that ethical thing has almost become like a religin, and begin to enjoy hunting more and for heavens sake have fun and be proud of it. We do not need to be humble or even have moral qualms about what we are doing, neither should we try to please the antis because they can't be pleased, never. Instead lets look at the economics of hunting. Hunters and the hunting industry generate millions in this province alone and create about 2000 work places. That in my opinon needs to be pushed under the peoples noses. I am not "humbeld" or feel "privileged" to be a hunter I am proud to be a hunter and follow my natural instinct as a human and it is my God given right to provide my own food trough hunting. I never felt that I have to justify my feelings and my experiences to anyone, not to a government and not to animal rights people and become politically correct in the course of it.

Ronforca
11-19-2005, 07:37 AM
This post is getting worn out.Everything that is said now is just a repeat.As I said before I hunt with rifle,shotgun,compound and crossbow in season.I make no apologies for this.As long as I break no laws and I do
enjoy hunting of all kinds.So what is the problem.I am sure not going to
kill so much more game with my crossbow to make a difference in the Deer
population,nor is anyone else.All that we are doing here is giving all hunters a black eye .Smarten up folks,the antis must love this thread.
Remember that we are all hunters in our own way.As said many times here
before if we want to keep enjoying our sport we getter start pulling together and stop this silly bickering.The Antis are watching and
smiling.
I

houndogger
11-19-2005, 08:18 AM
I for one have no problems at all with crossbows, as long as the person understands how to shoot them and their limits. I for one strickly hunt with a bow only. I hunt the early season all the rifle season. The only time I take a gun with me is for G bear protection or when I am running the dogs on cat or bears. Haven't had to use one yet but there will be a day.

J_T
11-19-2005, 10:47 AM
Contrary to what some here have said, this is not a bad post/thread or discussion.

It did begin with one man asking for people's opinion's on the use of crossbows in archery season. And he eventually did give that opinion.



Huntwriter,
No direspect to you Ddog, but this paragraph alone devalues the entire comment to nothing more than ignorance and disrespect for others.

Sorry Huntwriter, the man is entitled to his opinion. If he wishes to express it. So be it. It doesn't mean he devalues something or is ignorant.




Ruger#1
instead of fighting about this stupid crap, lets all band together and fight the lieberal government that is trying to tear hunting all apart. next they will try to register bows and arrows. then the stupid animal cruelty act, you guys sound like a broken record. hell you wine and bitch more than my wife!
Just what are you calling stupid crap? Once again, you assume this thread is about dismantling something. Who says we aren't together, just because we have a difference of opinion. You have issues.



A few members here advocate mandatory IBEP. Why on earth would we want more mandatory obligations to hassle the majority of good people.

There we are with the written word. It was I that brought up IBEP. I am not in favour of mandatory. You misinterpret what I was saying. What I said was, - if we have an issue with last minute archery tackle purchases by people that want to take advantage of an archery season, and this causes the hunting community or government concern (excessive wounding as an example) that the implementation of a mandatory IBEP would address this last minute purchase issue.

JT

Awishanew
11-19-2005, 01:26 PM
I agree the crossbow is a bow.It has been around a very long time and is very efficient. That may be its downfall.
Last year in the archery only season I met two guys that told us that they got a deer at 73 yds. They were very proud of their accomplishment. These two fellows would not voluntarily take the IBEP course and no doubt there are many more like them. I label them INSTANT ARCHERS that are using the crossbow only to extend the season with minimal effort.
We in this have the least bowhunter opportunities of almost any of the provinces and only lately are we getting some changes.
At the begninning of my rant I wrote of the ease of use and efficiency of the crossbow. I fear that this will lead to lost bowhunting opportunities that are slow to come by. REMEMBER the late season moose hunt in Dawson Creek area using muzzel loaders.
The efficient scoped inline muzzel loader shooting saboted bullets killed that season. I fear crossbows will do the same.

brotherjack
11-19-2005, 01:48 PM
At the begninning of my rant I wrote of the ease of use and efficiency of the crossbow. I fear that this will lead to lost bowhunting opportunities that are slow to come by. REMEMBER the late season moose hunt in Dawson Creek area using muzzel loaders.
The efficient scoped inline muzzel loader shooting saboted bullets killed that season. I fear crossbows will do the same.

But your assumption, which is the root of your fear, is that the crossbow somehow makes hunting far more efficient than using a traditional bow.

In your example (which I know nothing about, I only take your word for it) a high end muzzle loader with scope can extend the effective range of a black powder weapon to easily twice that of a flint or caplock shooting lead ball with open sights. The high end black powder rifles rival centerfire rifles in terms of range and accuracy. There is a huge DIFFERENCE in terms of effective range between the two weapons in this case.

With the crossbow - the arrow does not fly any farther, any faster, or any straighter. There is no extention of effective range, nor is there any real technical efficiency or advantage, other than the (argueably) somewhat easier aim/fire routine afforded by the stock/trigger/scope.

So you know a crossbow hunter who tagged a dear at 73 yards. There was a compound bow shooter a while back on huntshoot that took a moose at 80 yards. These are behavior/ethical issues, that have nothing to do with the weapon(s) in question here.

Anyway....

Ddog
11-19-2005, 02:16 PM
harbinger (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=763) http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_37696", true);
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 29


Re: Crossbows
hey, if crossbows are open to use ONLY during bow season are you allowed to use a bow during rifle season?:?:


crossbows are open from the first day of the hunting season,and through the whole season,not just archery season.

CUJO
11-20-2005, 03:11 PM
I did a trade for a Excaliber Exomag and right out of the box it could shoot cigerette size groups at 20 yards even tho I had never shot an Xbow before and was using shortened 2219 arrows with plastic vanes that I cut the nock off and installed regular arrow inserts for the nock.

I can remember a dozen or so years back when in bow season ( I forget what they called the season, special weapons or somthing) you could also use a muzzleloader, now that the muzzleloaders of today are so superior than even what they were 20 years ago, that "special weapons season" is gone because the muzzleloader of today is pretty much a rifle.

Crossbows are getting to be the same way with weights and speeds increasing greatly in the last few years. 10 years ago there was no sign of 250 lb crossbows, now there is several on the market. The progression of the Xbow will be its own worst enemy. With effeciancy increasing, longer shots will be taken. There has been talk of 300-400 lb Xbows being introduced withing the next several years. I am not exactly sure of what the limits will be on the Xbow in the future.

Compounds are in somewhat the same boat, when I began archery 210 AMO was fast, now its 300+ in leas than 20 years its a 30% increase in speed altho they are pretty much getting close to what the capabilities of the modern comound until the overdraw makes its re-introduction.

The modern Traditional bow is still pretty much the same as it was 30-40 years ago with about 10% increase's in effeciency maximum and the limits won't go much farther even with the introduction of carbon fiber because there is a limit on what laminated wood cores will take before they will shear.

harbinger
11-26-2005, 12:52 AM
so in the regs it says under the definition of crossbow that they are open for special bow only season except otherwise stated or something. Am I misinterpriting the regs?help me out here.
harbinger (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=763) http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_37696", true);
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 29


Re: Crossbows
hey, if crossbows are open to use ONLY during bow season are you allowed to use a bow during rifle season?:?:

crossbows are open from the first day of the hunting season,and through the whole season,not just archery season.

Radar
11-26-2005, 05:02 PM
I wanted to get into bow hunting and bought a cross bow to start. It all depends on the perosn, as was stated earlier there are many rifle hunters who buy a rifle a week before hunting season, never go to the range and practice and miss or make bad shots because of their inexperience with their weapon of choice. To me the same is true of bow hunting, whether a person goes out and buys a compound bow or a crossbow a week before the season they are likely not going to be proficient with their weapon of choice.

Myself, I've been out to the range around 20 times using my cross bow and have a Block to shoot it at home. I've shot it along side friends who have compund bows and plan to hunt with them, the ranges are comparible. So whatever the weapon of choice it comes down to the responsibility of the end use. So as a cross bow is a bow then it should be allowed, may be compound bows and crossbows shouldn't be allowed, only long bows????? :)

bogman
11-26-2005, 08:41 PM
My God the government loves to get ahold of a thread like this. Keep the user groups fighting amoungst each other. You guys are amazing, Why can't you just go hunting and enjoy YOUR time in the bush how YOU want to hunt. Quit worrying about the other guy and enjoy it now because the end may be sooner than you think.

Deerwhacker
12-01-2005, 10:37 AM
I hear way to much about peoples opinions of crossbows. the fact is they have the same range as any other bow . they are becoming more and more popular for the reason that more people that would not normaly try bowhunting because of the oquwardness of a vertical bow get to get into bowhunting with a tool that is comfortable for them.I have bowhunted in the kooteneys and i just got back from the christian vally and i have seen as many compound bowhunters road hunting as i have seen crossbow hunters. from bow to bow the hunting style people use is the same nomatter what they use.and by the way the only bowhunter i seen not walking and driving the roads up this past weekend is greybark and of course me and my dad who went into the forest and sat up in the stands for a good four hours each time in -15 with our crossbows and passed up about 8 deer that where more than 30 yards away.
I say this having no eligence to crossbows at all in fact for next season i will be useing a vertical bow for the fact that crossbows are to noisy to move around up in a stand and are way to heavy to continualy hold on an animal until it presents a shot(and dont even mention packing them around).

Deerwhacker
12-01-2005, 10:42 AM
This post is getting worn out.Everything that is said now is just a repeat.As I said before I hunt with rifle,shotgun,compound and crossbow in season.I make no apologies for this.As long as I break no laws and I do
enjoy hunting of all kinds.So what is the problem.I am sure not going to
kill so much more game with my crossbow to make a difference in the Deer
population,nor is anyone else.All that we are doing here is giving all hunters a black eye .Smarten up folks,the antis must love this thread.
Remember that we are all hunters in our own way.As said many times here
before if we want to keep enjoying our sport we getter start pulling together and stop this silly bickering.The Antis are watching and
smiling.
I
I totaly agree with this .Instead of bickering at eachother we should focus on the real problems that threaten our sport.IE.hippies....

plumbob
12-17-2005, 07:10 PM
I've hunted with a compound for years and felt the same way about cross bows,UNTIL I had a shoulder mishap that took me away from my compound.I turned to a cross bow at this time and harvested three deer in two seasons.This year I bought a new compound and had to drop to a lower poundage than before(that was a kick in the but).I never harvested a deer with archery this year as new job not a lot of time.So all I can say is you never know the story untill you ask.

JohnS
01-12-2006, 12:57 AM
Well I sat here reading all this stuff... hmmm alls i can say is its a fine line between Love and Hate.... its funny how the xbow has carried its BLACK name through time.... wasn't it said the xbow was the "PREFERRED" weeapon of the poacher.... I dunno thats one guys option.... like i say its a fine line.....

Walksalot
01-12-2006, 09:12 AM
On the hunting license there is a box to be marked if you are a bowhunter. As long as the choice of weapon is not specified then we are all bowhunters reguardless of our weapon of choice.
I know an elderly gerntleman who has forgot more about archery than I will ever know and he would walk off a 3D course, he's not a hunter, if there was a person with a crossbow. I am pleased to say that last night I made a break through. I convinced this master archer that we are all bowhunters and a hunter using a crossbow should be entitled to the same chance at practicing on a 3D course as anyone else and as long as it is legal to hunt with we should be live and let live. Mind you the ceiling of hell will be frozen solid before you find a crossbow in this man's hands and I totally respect that.

elkmaster
01-12-2006, 10:24 AM
The crossbow debate has been thrown around since we have had bowhunting seasons, I had debated this with government officials and some rod and gun clubs 30 years ago, the one thing I keep bringing forward is that if we remove crossbows from the bowhunting seasons, where does it end!
I believe that if we as hunters loby and have crossbows pulled from our archery season, we are not only fighting among our selfs (as fellow hunters), but this could open up the door for more.

I know for a fact that right now that some traditional bow hunters say that compounds and overdraws and on and on, should not be used.
These people are fighting for a traditional only season!
There is some compound bow hunters saying that the over draws and releases should not be used, where does it end!

The environmetal groups love it when sportsmen fight among them selfs.
I know also that many rod and gun clubs in the province have pro rifle hunters out there that are trying to remove our long fought archery seasons, but again don't lower our selfs to there level!
Join these clubs and voice your concerns.

These kind of people will ruin the over all sport of hunting no matter what you USE.

Remember its not how you hunt, its how we can increase our recreation time hunting.

greybark
01-12-2006, 01:55 PM
:roll: Hey Elkmaster , I notice no club memberships on your profile yet your post encourages others to join . A mistake ????

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

brotherjack
01-12-2006, 02:08 PM
As long as this topic is back on deck, I would request/suggest that all of us (especially those of you who are rabidly anti-crossbow, and keep going on about the results in Ohio and such), read the following article:

http://hunting.about.com/od/arch/l/aa020716a.htm


Thanks.

greybark
01-12-2006, 02:33 PM
:wink: Hey Brotherjack , Do you mean the Crossbow support Artical just below the Crossbow Sponsers list ? Chuckle chuckle .

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

Onesock
01-12-2006, 02:51 PM
What does this prove BJ. This is one mans opinion on a very broad topic. I am not so concerned about the amount of deer harvested by the opportuistic xbow hunter but am more concerned about the animals wounded by the xbow hunters that shoot their xbows 2 days before the opening of bow season. I don't think the 1% xbow hunter knows of all the pitfalls there can be in bowhunting or pretend to learn them in a couple of days a year of shooting his xbow. This is why I am in favor of all bowhunters having to take the IBEP course. For those of you that say you have been gun hunting for 20 years and don't need another course about how to bowhunt, hunting with a rifle is nowhere the same as bowhunting and you do need some instruction on the topic. An education course may not solve all the problems but it may alert you as to what "could" happen.

Onesock
01-12-2006, 02:52 PM
Good one Barky!!!! LOL

johnes50
01-12-2006, 06:23 PM
I have never hunted with a bow or Xbow in my life. But if I decided that I wanted to hunt with a bow, to enjoy an extended hunting season, it would probably be with a Xbow.The reasons being is that I am getting a little older and feel that a Xbow would be easier to master, since I have shot rifles most of my life. Also, I seriously injured my right wrist and shoulder a few years back which has left me with limited flexibility, mobility, and feeling in my right hand. (Bad dirt bike, bad).Buying a Xbow for the first time two days before archery season is, in my opinion, unethical and downright stupid. Not only are you not familiar with the proper and safe use of their Xbow, but the odds of injuring and losing an animal would be high. This is not acceptable. Like any aspect of hunting using a Xbow should be taken seriously and the proper skills acquired BEFORE going hunting.I see the point of traditional archers with their concern that archery season is going to taken over by non-archers with little knowledge of the skills and traditions of archery with their newly bought Xbow's. But Xbow hunting is a form of archery and is not likely to go away any time soon. It's the same with rifle hunters, some guys hike into the deep timber and other guys road hunt.One thing that can be done is to encourge the Xbow hunter to take shooting and safety lessons and to educate them about the traditional aspects of archery.In the end, we are all hunters, and should not encourage the government and anti-hunters to restrict our hunting traditions and rights by fighting amongst ourselves about how and when other hunters should be allowed to hunt.Anti-hunters don't care if you use a longbow, recurve bow, rifle, or shotgun to hunt or if you collect guns or target shoot. They are just waiting to find ANY reason to stop ALL hunting and firearms use. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves, we should try to promote hunting in general and support any groups or individuals that promotes safe and sustainable hunting.

elkmaster
01-12-2006, 07:11 PM
I have never hunted with a bow or Xbow in my life. But if I decided that I wanted to hunt with a bow, to enjoy an extended hunting season, it would probably be with a Xbow.The reasons being is that I am getting a little older and feel that a Xbow would be easier to master, since I have shot rifles most of my life. Also, I seriously injured my right wrist and shoulder a few years back which has left me with limited flexibility, mobility, and feeling in my right hand. (Bad dirt bike, bad).Buying a Xbow for the first time two days before archery season is, in my opinion, unethical and downright stupid. Not only are you not familiar with the proper and safe use of their Xbow, but the odds of injuring and losing an animal would be high. This is not acceptable. Like any aspect of hunting using a Xbow should be taken seriously and the proper skills acquired BEFORE going hunting.I see the point of traditional archers with their concern that archery season is going to taken over by non-archers with little knowledge of the skills and traditions of archery with their newly bought Xbow's. But Xbow hunting is a form of archery and is not likely to go away any time soon. It's the same with rifle hunters, some guys hike into the deep timber and other guys road hunt.One thing that can be done is to encourge the Xbow hunter to take shooting and safety lessons and to educate them about the traditional aspects of archery.In the end, we are all hunters, and should not encourage the government and anti-hunters to restrict our hunting traditions and rights by fighting amongst ourselves about how and when other hunters should be allowed to hunt.Anti-hunters don't care if you use a longbow, recurve bow, rifle, or shotgun to hunt or if you collect guns or target shoot. They are just waiting to find ANY reason to stop ALL hunting and firearms use. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves, we should try to promote hunting in general and support any groups or individuals that promotes safe and sustainable hunting.


Your right I am in my 50's also andI shot my recurve steady for 25 years, and like many of us Im have shoulder problems so I started shooting a Onieda eagle bow bcause of the single string I like and the let off, some times I go hunting with my Grand Children and carry my Rifle.

brotherjack
01-12-2006, 07:39 PM
What does this prove BJ. This is one mans opinion on a very broad topic. I am not so concerned about the amount of deer harvested by the opportuistic xbow hunter but am more concerned about the animals wounded by the xbow hunters that shoot their xbows 2 days before the opening of bow season. I don't think the 1% xbow hunter knows of all the pitfalls there can be in bowhunting or pretend to learn them in a couple of days a year of shooting his xbow.

What does it prove? Well, for one thing, as it contains reference to the rest of the data available from Ohio, scientificly speaking, crossbows offer virtually NO advantage to the hunter: contrairy to the highly slanted and incompete bit of statistics commonly cited (by you, among others, as I recall) to show that crossbow hunting is going to be the end of bowhunting alltogether because it's such an efficient killing machine. Here's the relevant part of the article for those too lazy to go read it:

information obtained from the Ohio Department of Wildlife (ODOW) for the year of 2001 says this: "Of the 155,000 archery participants, 70,000 used a crossbow, 55,000 use a vertical bow and 30,000 used both. Of seniors who apply for and receive a free license, 4,000 used a crossbow, 1,000 used a vertical bow and 1,000 used both. Success rates for 2001 were identical for crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters at 14%."

The article does go on to say, that after a more careful review of the math, the crossbow does seem to have about a 2% higher success rate. Which in reality, is both not a big deal considering success rates are still very low for bowhunters of any ilk, and also considering that a couple percentage points one way or another aren't all that indicative of some advantage or another.

This is relevant to the discussion at hand, because one of the points anti-crossbow people hammer on over and over again, is how there will soon be no bow season at all because crossbow's will make the success rates go up to unsustainable levels. That claim, is, according to all available data (including the very Ohio statistics they like to quote incompletely to try and make their case), totally false. That's what the article proves.


Now then, I must say, you really tick me off when you go talking smack about how no more than '1% of crossbow' hunters have any clue, and how they're all just wounding animals, etc. That's just your own biggotry in action dude, nothing more, nothing less. There is no data whatsoever that suggests any such problem exists, other than a lot of smack that's been handed down and around by biggoted people, and repeated over and over again without any substantiation at all. Go find some proof if you wanna talk smack like that dude, because it's a total insult to every single person I know (or know of) who hunts with a crossbow; none of whom even remotely resemble your remarks (and I'm getting to know more and more crossbow hunters all the time - I have yet to meet this mythical slob hunter with an x-bow you're always yammering about).

Anyway, I'll shut up before I get myself in trouble with the moderators (assuming I haven't already).

ruger#1
01-12-2006, 07:56 PM
you guys are scaring me. there are people out there that shouldnt even be hunting with rifles. like some one said, were all hunters. heck ive taken grouse with a slingshot. i think i might sell my bow.

elkmaster
01-12-2006, 07:57 PM
Message to Greybark!

I am affiliated to different clubs associated with hunting, but I never posted it, the reasons are to stay nuteral to find out peoples remarks and not to damage any club I am affiliated with because of my remarks!

I have shot recurve for over 35 years and Onieda Eagle bow for the past 22 years because of my shoulders and age, as well as winning dozens of 3D shoots all through the 80's and early 90's shooting Traditional Recurve, and harvesting many P&Y class animals, and provincial P&Y records, as Hunters WE must understand to stand together no matter what tool WE hunt with, this was the question I was passing on.

Remember there was only a hand full of us bow hunters 20 to 30 years ago that fought for what bow seasons and bow only zones that we have now!

Onesock
01-12-2006, 09:26 PM
Talking smack!! Dude!! Brotherjack I suggest you take off the pants which have the crotch hanging down to the ground and put your hat on straight. It is quite obvious to me that you a relatively new to the bowhunting scene with the statements you make. Hang around bow hunting for a while and you will see first hand of what we speak. And yes the MOE has documented proof of the wounding of 4 elk on the sunshine coast by one xbow hunter who shot at everything with 4 legs. The CO had to finish the elk with a rifle. Had this individual
1) practised with his equipment he would have known its limitations.
2) Had any instruction on shot placement the outcome may have been different.
The article you had us all read was sponsored by the xbow industry from what I gather.
You have to agree that no matter what a hunter shoots he should be proficient with his weapon of choice. A huge selling point of xbows is that they are easy to learn to shoot and they probably are. There is alot more to bowhunting than being able to hit a 3 inch circle at 30 yards and I am sure you would agree with this. Until someone can prove to me that the majority of xbow shooters practise for most of the year and learn about the restrictions of their weapons they should be relegated to the GOS. This will deter the opportunistic xbow hunter from loosing us our hard fought for bow season's.

greybark
01-12-2006, 09:31 PM
:biggrin: Hey Elkmaster ,You are right . There are few of us with that kind of archery/bowhunting background . We must have bumped into each other during our tenure and not realized it.
I do agree with your views on the riflehunters edging into the archery seasons and am aware that the TBBC is putting a lot work into trying to stop it.
However in the over 25 years of extensive bowhunting and 3-d experience (often as a club director) I have yet to hear any Traditional bowhunters trying to exclude Modern bowhunters from our hunting seasons. The TBBC has been very active in the pursuit of bowhunting venues for a lot of years with good results that have benifited all bowhunters.
In regards to the modern bowhunters picking on each others type of equipment , I have not heard any of your assertions and the TBBC makes darn sure we mind our own business.
Hopefully we can meet up at some of the 3-d events and fling a few then have an appropreiate beverage .


REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

brotherjack
01-12-2006, 10:20 PM
And yes the MOE has documented proof of the wounding of 4 elk on the sunshine coast by one xbow hunter who shot at everything with 4 legs. The CO had to finish the elk with a rifle. Had this individual
1) practised with his equipment he would have known its limitations.
2) Had any instruction on shot placement the outcome may have been different.


Big deal, you can find documented cases of people with bows of ALL kinds who fling arrows at critters from ridiculous yardages (by which we can be well assured, by the very nature of bowhunting, that they don't always cleanly nail their critters). Cases in point: I know of compound bow hunter who took an 80+ yard shot at a moose this year, and then bragged about it on all the forums (because he happened to have recovered his moose after that shot). I've got a bowhunting sorta-friend of mine who loves to get holier-than-thou about bowhunting 'ethics', who gave me a lot of grief because I wouldn't practice 60 and 80 yard shots "just in case it's the only shot you get at that monster elk, you'll be sorry..."

All these examples, both yours, and mine, don't proove diddly squat in terms of anything to do with any given weapon, or the people which use them - it only proves that there are people in this world who have a different idea of ethics than I (or presumably you) do, and not for the better (IMHO).

It just boggles my mind how you can't get that dude. Didn't you ever take a science class in school, where they told you that anecdotal evidence is totally unacceptable when in search of a difinitive answer to a given question? Bob got sick last year, during which time he drank lemon juice, after which he got better. You see how that doesn't prove anything about the medicinal qualities of lemon juice? But if 500 people got sick with the same symptoms last year, and they gave half of them lemon juice, and the other half water, and only the half that got lemon juice got better and the rest died - then you're on your way to proving something.

Again, I repeat, go find me some evidence of any kind of excessive wounding rates from crossbow hunters compared to other types of bowhunters. Evidence is NOT a story about something bad a guy with a crossbow once did. Evidence would be something like a chart that lists the wounding rates of bowhutners by type of bow, from a study based on a decent size number of arrow flingers from all camps.

For that mater, go find me some evidence that there is any significant difference in crossbows and crossbow hunters, when compared to their more traditional brethren. I'd love to see it.



You have to agree that no matter what a hunter shoots he should be proficient with his weapon of choice. There is alot more to bowhunting than being able to hit a 3 inch circle at 30 yards and I am sure you would agree with this.
Sure, I agree, and every crossbow hunter I have ever met would agree with you too. Every single crossbow hunter I've had a chance to speak with is well aware that hitting the target is only a small part of the battle when it comes to taking an animal with a bow of any kind. Again, where's this slob hunter with a crossbow you say that 99% of us are? Out of more than a dozen I've spoken with, you'd think I'd find at least one, if this was really the case, wouldn't you?


Until someone can prove to me that the majority of xbow shooters practise for most of the year and learn about the restrictions of their weapons they should be relegated to the GOS. This will deter the opportunistic xbow hunter from loosing us our hard fought for bow season's.

Man, get a grip on reality. Crossbow hunting has been allowed during bow season in BC (and various other places) for many years now, and in all that time it has never caused a single loss or restriction of a bowhunting season that I've ever heard of (and I've done some research on this topic since all this rhetoric started some months ago), and as far as I can tell, there is no sane or rational reason to believe it ever will.

In my part of BC, they let guys with rifles pound the bush for months on end with over the counter tags for just about everything but moose, but bowhunters get 9 days in September, and a few token late season whitetail opportunities. The harvest numbers by bowhunters is a trivial figure compared to rifle hunters - and if harvest rates get too high, you can bet that bowhunting seasons are going to be the last thing to get cut. If anything, I should expect bowhunting seasons get expanded, so people can still hunt but the harvest rates go down.

Bah... I should have known better than to start talking about this with you; it's not like you're doing any thinking here, you're just rabidly pursuing your preconcieved anti-crossbow agenda...

Yeah yeah, I know moderators, timeout time for me...

Onesock
01-13-2006, 08:47 AM
You BJ did not read my last post. There is documented evidence of elk wounding loss by xbow hunters in region 2!!! Dig your head out of the s***.

brotherjack
01-13-2006, 10:30 AM
You BJ did not read my last post. There is documented evidence of elk wounding loss by xbow hunters in region 2!!! Dig your head out of the s***.
Your post only mentioned one guy who was caught in region 2 wounding elk; and if you'd read my post, you'd notice that I explained patientely to you, how that doesn't prove diddly squat about crossbows or crossbow hunters in general. Pull your own head out.

J_T
01-13-2006, 10:34 AM
Once again, I have to express concern over the tone of the discussion here. I have no problem with the discussion or the information. Just the tone. Peace.

A question:
Archery seasons are established - in part - based on the fact that harvests will be minimal. IE low impact.

As archery seasons increase - due to the hard work of a few individuals - and "hunters" begin to see the obvious opportunities that are coming up in archery season (you don't need to look any further than the Region 4 any elk and new whitetail season for an example of a significant improvement in "opportunity") wouldn't we expect an increase in hunter numbers and hunter days during those new seasons?

If hunter numbers increase, we can assume that a proportionate increase will occur in the harvest rate.

At what point, will a wildlife management review consider the increase in harvest as "some impact" and re-consider the archery only season?

We all agree, the crossbow (of all archery tackle) is the easiest to pick up and enjoy a level of efficiency with. If most hunters, new to the archery season are choosing a crossbow to facilitate their desire to hunt in the archery season, at what point, should we as hunters, act proactively and manage harvests, by managing the weapons that hunters use, rather than implementing restrictions such as LEH in an archery season? (Keeping in mind that most bowhunters by the very nature of their weapon believe in weapons restrictions over LEH)

Now I'm not suggesting the crossbow is any more successful than another bow, but I am suggesting that a higher percentage of those hunters that are looking for their first exposure to an archery opportunity will choose a crossbow as their weapon. The impact is a significant spike in bowhunter numbers. (Region 2 Elk LEH)

There is very clear evidence in studies done that harvests within an archery season (over a three year) period increase with an increase in hunter numbers due to the increased awareness of the new season. In these studies it is the crossbow use that increases (suggesting hunters moving into archery seasons for the first time) and are responsible for the increased harvest rates (suggesting a quick return on the investment for the user). I'm not suggesting any of that is a bad thing, but it is important.

I believe that if we are to continue to develop new and innovative archery opportunities here in BC, we need to be very aware of the impacts of creating any opportunity based on current trends and data, and the resulting future expectations and outcomes.

Example:
2000 bowhunters, 14% harvest rate is 280 harvests and wildlife management believe this is acceptable so approve a new archery season. Within a short period of time, bowhunter numbers increase to 5000 and continuing with a 14% harvest rate, we now have 700 harvests. The question will then be. Is this acceptable? If not, what restrictions do we place on bowhunters to reduce the harvest rate and total number of harvests? 1) shorter season, 2) LEH, 3) Weapon restriction?

JT:neutral:

brotherjack
01-13-2006, 10:59 AM
Example:
2000 bowhunters, 14% harvest rate is 280 harvests and wildlife management believe this is acceptable so approve a new archery season. Within a short period of time, bowhunter numbers increase to 5000 and continuing with a 14% harvest rate, we now have 700 harvests. The question will then be. Is this acceptable? If not, what restrictions do we place on bowhunters to reduce the harvest rate and total number of harvests? 1) shorter season, 2) LEH, 3) Weapon restriction?

But, in that same example, for a given fall season, if there was 7,000 bothunters, you would also have 20,000 rifle hunters during rifle season with a much higher success rate than bowhunters (both because of the extended range or rifles, and the far longer season given rifle hunters). The rifle hunters would take literally thousands of animals each season (if we assume only a 33% success for rifle hunters, which I think would be low, we'd end up with almost 7,000 animals to rifle hunters). Why on earth would wildlife managers be going after bowhunters and their measley 700 animals from their 9 day season? If they cancled bow season alltogether, they'd only cut harvest numbers by less than 10%, which wouldn't be enough to mater if there really was overharvest going on. If they restricted the type of weapon, they would do nothing more than force the guys who start with a crossbow as the easiest point of entry to bowhunting to switch to the compound bow as the new easiest point of entry.

If anything, if the harvest rates in a given area get too high, I would expect to see long bow seasons and short rifle seasons (as you see many places down in the U.S.), for exactly the reason of controlling the harvest numbers.

I'm just 100% convinced that all this paranoia about how crossbows and crossbow hunters are going to 'ruin bow season' is ridiculous and unfounded.

And my apologies for the tone you were commenting on, I shouldn't let myself get annoyed like I am.

J_T
01-13-2006, 01:08 PM
While you can compare hunters to hunters, I don't believe we can compare rifle hunters and their GOS seasons to bowhunters and their Archery seasons.

Keep in mind, rifle hunters are the majority and have "the" established seasons. Bowhunters, fall outside and around it and look for new opportunities "without negatively impacting" the GOS rifle season.

Should we assume that if bow harvests go up, managers will reduce the rifle season? (Interesting idea)

Wildlife Managers have already anticipated "desired" outcomes of harvests in most GOS rifle seasons. Often, the reason they allow an archery season is because "in addition to the rifle season" archery harvests will not be that high. Low impact/no impact.

The management of an archery season, the hunters, the harvests, the season length is accountable unto itself. Managers will manage the rifle hunt, GOS and rifle harversts, within their own, and archery is accountable within its own. You can't have a reduction/restriction in a rifle harvest, because there is an increase in an archery harvest.

But I do appreciate that you have a unique thought process. Outside the box. It can be advantagous.

JT

brotherjack
01-13-2006, 01:33 PM
Keep in mind, rifle hunters are the majority and have "the" established seasons. Bowhunters, fall outside and around it and look for new opportunities "without negatively impacting" the GOS rifle season.

Should we assume that if bow harvests go up, managers will reduce the rifle season? (Interesting idea)

Why wouldn't they simply shorten rifle season and expand bow season as a method to control overharvest? The people who make such decisions already have the very same idea apparently - as evidinced by (among other things) the fact that almost all the moose LEH's in region 4 are now archery only; for no other reason that I am aware of other than to keep success rates low. (2005-2006 LEH Synopsis, page 7, left side of the page - all but the cow/calf/spike tags at the very top of the page are archery equipment only).

Also, where is there any documentation that says or alludes to the idea that tbowhunters are only allowed their seasons so long as their harvest numbers don't affect the GOS? Last time I looked, wildlife managers had no qualms whatsoever about making unpopular decisions in the name of protecting a given species from overharvest; from LEH's to shortened seasons to antler restrictions (restrictions I might add, at least in my neck of the woods, archery hunters have been spared - we had archery turkery for years before the gun season opened for them, and there are no antler restrictions on bow seasons around here either, and in some cases no sex restrictions either).

Similarly, where is there any documentation indicating that archery harvests and rifle harvests are managed independantly of one another? I was under the impression that wildlife managers would look at total harvest numbers for a the year when searching for overharvest indications? Not trying to be a pain, I'd just really honestly like to see if this be so, because it wouldn't make any sense at all if this were the case.

And thanks; I didn't know there was a box to think outside of. :)

J_T
01-13-2006, 03:02 PM
Why wouldn't they simply shorten rifle season and expand bow season as a method to control overharvest? Wow:D I like your attitude. But it isn't the reality.:-( Changing seasons takes consultation, research, consensus and change through advisory group sessions.

My comments - and position if you want to call it that - are based in mutual respect for all hunters. When we attend a hunting advisory group meeting, respect is the first step in achieving consensus. The rifle hunters have a say in archery seasons. To simply say, "well bowhunting numbers are up and as a result so are bowhunting harvests, so we need to take a few days off of the rifle GOS", would get a person shot.

It is not the intention of the bowhunting community to negatively impact rifle GOS opportunity. The solutions (season proposals) that the archery community put forth, have to keep that in mind.

These "things" (rules of engagement) aren't always "written down", but are accepted. Rifle hunters still out number archery only, hunters.

Bottom line, :idea: if we ALL hunted with a bow, we could hunt all species, any sex, 365 days a year, and probably not have a negative impact on game populations. But now the rifle community might not go for a total loss of opportunity. Would they? So we have to have "seasons", we have to have LEH, to manage hunter days in the field and manage harvests.

JT

brotherjack
01-13-2006, 03:54 PM
Wow:D I like your attitude. But it isn't the reality.:-( Changing seasons takes consultation, research, consensus and change through advisory group sessions.

My comments - and position if you want to call it that - are based in mutual respect for all hunters. When we attend a hunting advisory group meeting, respect is the first step in achieving consensus. The rifle hunters have a say in archery seasons. To simply say, "well bowhunting numbers are up and as a result so are bowhunting harvests, so we need to take a few days off of the rifle GOS", would get a person shot.

But now the rifle community might not go for a total loss of opportunity. Would they? So we have to have "seasons", we have to have LEH, to manage hunter days in the field and manage harvests.


Such comments might get someone shot in a discussion or meeting by a livid rifle hunter, but if we look at the historical decision-making that's been done by the powers that be; they've done a lot of things that rifle-hunters have despised and faught against. Antler restrictions only for rifle hunters, LEH's, having only bow seasons for a given species, etc.

So why then, is there some assumption, that in the future, they will do something that will not significantly affect harvest numbers in an area (ie: stricter bow season regulations), when they are trying to stop overharvest? Historicaly, they've come down on rifle hunters with antler restrictions and shorter seasons - so why do we think they're suddenly going to change tactics at this stage in the game?

Don't get me wrong, I am sure that the input given by the hunting community is taken into consideration by the powers that be, but at the end of the day; when the decisions get made, that input is simply that - a few ideas and some rhetoric for the decision makers to consider before making their final call.

Am I crazy? I don't feel crazy.... :D

J_T
01-13-2006, 04:09 PM
If I understand you correctly, I would provide an example.

Decisions made by the Wildlife manager in Cranbrook are only made at the consensus of the Hunting Opportunities Committee. This committee has a representative of: Houndsmen, Guide Outfitters, Bowhunters, Rifle Hunters etc on it.

The wildlife manager takes his season implementation direction from this committee. Sometimes discussion requires research and not just biological research there is risk and impact assessments to be done.

If the wildlife manager has some of his own ideas, based on ministry data, then he puts it before the committee for discussion.

Now in Nelson, you have a very different philosophy working. Guy Woods is not managing game populations for hunting purposes. He does not consult the hunting community. Although he does take direction from a couple of generally misguided individuals. He is primarily a scientist and uses hunters as game population control specialists. Change is imminent as Guy will be retiring soon.

JT

brotherjack
01-13-2006, 04:46 PM
If I understand you correctly, I would provide an example.

Decisions made by the Wildlife manager in Cranbrook are only made at the consensus of the Hunting Opportunities Committee. This committee has a representative of: Houndsmen, Guide Outfitters, Bowhunters, Rifle Hunters etc on it.

The wildlife manager takes his season implementation direction from this committee.

But in your example, that same process has led to: implementation of 6 point antler restrictions for elk rifle hunters (but not for bowhunters), only bow seasons for turkey which for years has had no rifle season at all, 4 point antler restrictuions for mule deer rifle hunters (but not bowhunters), and all bull moose hunting LEH and archery equipment only (no rifle hunters).

When faced with booming elk and whitetail populations due to several years in a row of mild winters - the same committee/process/people got bowhunters an either-sex season instead of lowering the much maligned and hated 6 point antler restriction for rifle hunters or drasticly increasing LEH's for whitetail does. Yeah, they gave out a bunch of cow elk LEH's for rifle hunters too in "zone X", but big deal, I don't see any reason to mind sharing the wealth like that, especially considering the bowhunters got first crack at all them tasty cows (in an open season no less, no LEH's for arrow flingers!).

Based on the facts and results, it sounds like a pretty bowhunter friendly decision making process to me; doesn't it to you? Does the history here show any indication that bowseason would be closed or restricted if we get more guys in the bush with arrows killing more critters?

I guess what I'm saying is, it sounds to me like your example props up my point of view pretty well. Where's the argument here, I missed it?


;)

Tuffcity
01-13-2006, 04:48 PM
Just as a side note...


almost all the moose LEH's in region 4 are now archery only; for no other reason that I am aware of other than to keep success rates low. (2005-2006 LEH Synopsis, page 7, left side of the page

Not quite correct, if you look closely you'll see that there is a 2-7 week period prior to when the tag becomes valid for rifle hunting where the tag holder can hunt with archery gear. Crossbow or otherwise. ;-)

IE: 4-01A, Bull Only* from Oct 25-Nov.5 At the * below that it says
"Persons... may hunt Sept. 01-Oct. 24 using Archery Equipment..."

RC

brotherjack
01-13-2006, 05:16 PM
Not quite correct, if you look closely you'll see that there is a 2-7 week period prior to when the tag becomes valid for rifle hunting where the tag holder can hunt with archery gear. Crossbow or otherwise. ;-)

IE: 4-01A, Bull Only* from Oct 25-Nov.5 At the * below that it says
"Persons... may hunt Sept. 01-Oct. 24 using Archery Equipment..."


DOH! I seem to have been mistaken. I just saw the "*", and looked down and saw the section that said archery only equipment. I never cross-checked the dates with the stuff above.

Still, it seems a pretty bowhunter friendly thing to allow.

J_T
01-14-2006, 09:47 AM
But in your example, that same process has led to: implementation of 6 point antler restrictions for elk rifle hunters (but not for bowhunters), only bow seasons for turkey which for years has had no rifle season at all, 4 point antler restrictuions for mule deer rifle hunters (but not bowhunters), ........

When faced with booming elk and whitetail populations due to several years in a row of mild winters - the same committee/process/people got bowhunters an either-sex season instead of lowering the much maligned and hated 6 point antler restriction for rifle hunters .....

Exactly the point. Through organizations like the Traditional Bowhunters of BC, bowhunters "earned" a place at this table (earning that place and respect alone was a 6 year process) and through Minister appointment had a bowhunter placed on the committee about 7 years ago. And if you take note, in Region 4, gains for bowhunters are occuring. And as you have accurately pointed out, without negatively impacting rifle opportunity.

Your comment "much maligned and hated 6 point"..... that season is exactly what the rifle hunters in region 4 have stated they want. Many state they want that trophy experience, they want to hunt big bulls. These desires carry over to the hunting advisory committee and then must be supported through a biological gathering and decision making process. There have been a number of studies carried out on herd dynamics regarding the elk in the EK. At present, there are an abundance of elk and elk hunting opportunities in the East Kootenay. All good.



I guess what I'm saying is, it sounds to me like your example props up my point of view pretty well. Where's the argument here, I missed it?


Oh, I didn't realize this was an arguement. I thought it was a sharing of ideas and information. Funny how we lose the tone using the typed word......:? If you'd like an arguement, I can let you carry on your discussion with Onesock.

JT

brotherjack
01-14-2006, 04:23 PM
Your comment "much maligned and hated 6 point"..... that season is exactly what the rifle hunters in region 4 have stated they want. Many state they want that trophy experience, they want to hunt big bulls.

Oh, I didn't realize this was an arguement. I thought it was a sharing of ideas and information. Funny how we lose the tone using the typed word......:? If you'd like an arguement, I can let you carry on your discussion with Onesock.

There may be some rich trophy hunters who're fond of the 'big bull' experience, and I have no doubt that guides voted for that too, but of all the 'regular joe' hunters I've met around here (which is getting to be quite a few), I can't recall one who had anything nice to say about the 6 point restrictions. That's not to say that I've discussed that exact topic with every hunter I've met, don't get me wrong - I haven't taken a survey or anything - but anyone who's ever had a comment to me about it, has had a negative one. I do concede that maybe it's just my own impression, and not correct in the larger view.

And sorry about the argument thing; I thought we were still debating the contrasting points of view; yours being that too many bowhunters in the bush with crossbows would lead to overharvest and subsequently the reduction/restriction/or elimination of bow seasons, and mine being that such logic doesn't seem very logical to me, espeically in light of historical decisions by wildlife managers. Or maybe I'm just still wound up after talking to onesock. :)

J_T
01-14-2006, 10:05 PM
Onesock is a great guy, awesome to have around camp. A man that wears his heart on his sleeve and works hard for that in which he believes. Nothing wrong with that. As I've said before, sometimes talking to a monitor is a bit different that talking to a person around a campfire.

JT

brotherjack
01-14-2006, 11:38 PM
Onesock is a great guy, awesome to have around camp. A man that wears his heart on his sleeve and works hard for that in which he believes. Nothing wrong with that. As I've said before, sometimes talking to a monitor is a bit different that talking to a person around a campfire.
Agreed; communicating via text leaves out a lot, unless you've got the time and talent to choose your words carefully (which I usually don't).

As to Onesock, I don't know anything about him other than what I've seen here. All I can say is that biggotry really honestly ticks me off probably worse than just about anything, and he's said some pretty seriously biggoted things about crossbow hunters.

Anyway, I ain't big on packing around anything, much less a grudge, so it's not that big a deal. ;)

Walksalot
01-16-2006, 06:29 AM
Crossbows will be allowed on Penticton's 3D course this year as a trial run. It took alot of lobbying on my part to convince the group to let them on.(personally I have never shot a crossbow). The arguments against the crossbows are that they blow the hell out of the targets, shooters have been rumoured to be carrying cocked weapons on the course and the biggest was they don't belong in archery. My position is, who are we to judge? They are legal in the bow season and until we allow them on the course and see first hand all we hear are unsubstantiated rumours.

Fred
01-16-2006, 09:15 AM
Crossbows will be allowed on Penticton's 3D course this year as a trial run. It took alot of lobbying on my part to convince the group to let them on.(personally I have never shot a crossbow). The arguments against the crossbows are that they blow the hell out of the targets, shooters have been rumoured to be carrying cocked weapons on the course and the biggest was they don't belong in archery. My position is, who are we to judge? They are legal in the bow season and until we allow them on the course and see first hand all we hear are unsubstantiated rumours.

Would you like me to bring mine up to the first shoot Walks? Fred

J_T
01-16-2006, 12:11 PM
Crossbows will be allowed on Penticton's 3D course this year as a trial run. It took alot of lobbying on my part to convince the group to let them on.(personally I have never shot a crossbow). The arguments against the crossbows are that they blow the hell out of the targets, shooters have been rumoured to be carrying cocked weapons on the course and the biggest was they don't belong in archery. My position is, who are we to judge? They are legal in the bow season and until we allow them on the course and see first hand all we hear are unsubstantiated rumours.
Thanks Walksalot, I'm sure we'd be interested to hear about the experience. Particularly specific to the concerns expressed in your post.

Thanks.

JT

Walksalot
01-16-2006, 07:00 PM
Would you like me to bring mine up to the first shoot Walks? Fred

Fred , if you want to bring your crossbow then go ahead the decision is yours. I would be interested in seeing what they did to the targets.

Fred
01-17-2006, 08:21 AM
That was all I had in mind. I would ,uh compete?, with my Feathermax? :-? ;-) Fred

huntwriter
01-17-2006, 10:38 AM
The neverending saga and myth of the bad crossbow is still going and going. I am glad though it slowly turns in a direction where it should head. Togetherness.

oldtimer
01-17-2006, 11:57 AM
Walksalot good decision !! I am a compound shooter but watched the crossbow group last year at merritt, saw no more target damage than a fast compound. This year I will be in Merritt with fat shafts at 280 + fps and will welcome the xbow competition. Mike

Walksalot
01-17-2006, 01:58 PM
That was all I had in mind. I would ,uh compete?, with my Feathermax? :-? ;-) Fred

Oh hell Fred, if you are going to bring your crossbow shoot the course with it. I am interested in the scores compared to the compound and traditional shooters.

Fred
01-17-2006, 11:03 PM
Heck, I haven't even shot it yet never mind get it sighted in, You mean I got to practice with that thing!! ;-) :biggrin: Fred

Walksalot
01-18-2006, 06:22 AM
Heck, I haven't even shot it yet never mind get it sighted in, You mean I got to practice with that thing!! ;-) :biggrin: Fred

Fred, from what I have heard you don't practice with a crossbow you just pick it up and commense to whacking "10"s.:razz:

Fred
01-18-2006, 09:46 AM
:biggrin: :mrgreen: :biggrin: Fred

J_T
01-18-2006, 06:12 PM
Fred, from what I have heard you don't practice with a crossbow you just pick it up and commense to whacking "10"s.:razz: Beauty. Is that a scab I just heard getting peeled off. Have fun.:grin:

rock
01-18-2006, 09:05 PM
I hunt with a rifle as well as a bow( compound )
The way I see it when I need meat the rifle comes along, when my bow hunting its for enjoyment a animal at this point is a bonus.
As for crossbows yes with this type of hunting device I see more road hunting done by hunters, and at this point I usually pretty happy being in the bush all alone. I even have a few areas knowing the hunting pressure can set up for escape routes for animals which are usaully great in producing game. I call these natural funnels which really narrows at one end giving us bow hunters better odds.

Fred
01-18-2006, 10:33 PM
This Barnett RC150 sort of fell into my lap and that horrid curiousity of my rose to the surface again. BCHunter said he couldn't hit anything with it and that sounded like a challange to me! :roll: That is why I have it, to play with and prove to myself that it wasn't the crossbow. Thus far I have found the serving to have been damaged by a burr on the sliders and the 22 scope was positioned very poorly. I don't think too much of these stubby bolts either(almost called the arrows:redface: )! Fred

Walksalot
01-19-2006, 06:06 AM
Fred, if it is going to be alot of work to get it field ready then just bring your other bow.

Fred
01-19-2006, 09:54 AM
I am bringing both. The Barnett has been fixed already, we just need for this doggoned rain to stop so I can practice some. Fred

Elkhound
01-23-2006, 05:52 PM
And yes the MOE has documented proof of the wounding of 4 elk on the sunshine coast by one xbow hunter who shot at everything with 4 legs. The CO had to finish the elk with a rifle. Had this individual
1) practised with his equipment he would have known its limitations.
2) Had any instruction on shot placement the outcome may have been different.

First off, Nobody likes the wounding of elk or any game animal. The ones on the coast who help with the elk project take it harder than most when one is wounded and lost.

2nd. Your facts are not in order. This hunter wounded 2 elk that got away not 4 (one of which was searched for by a team of guys for many days) The 2nd elk was looked for by many guys and tracking dogs were brought in and was still not found. Nobody can say the effort to find the wounded game was not enough. He got the 3rd. The CO did not finish off the elk with a rifle but the hunter did and the CO came to check out all the circumstances. This elk had 3 bolts in it from 20yrds, 2 should have been fatal but this elk would not die so the CO thought the finishing shot was humane so no charges. Unfortunately, 2 different crossbow hunters with LEH elk tags finished the elk with rifles that year not just this one.
Practise- This hunter practised alot and understood the limitations of the crossbow. I think a proper understanding of the slight difference of location for an Elk's vitals compared to a moose might have helped, maybe.

And one of the elk this last season was almost lost but found much later and bloated after a crossbow was used. Lets face it, Elk have to be one of the toughest animals around. I don't know how many stories I have heard of fatally shot elk being tracked for a valley or two when even a .300WM or .338Wm were used

And I know that the regs were being looked at to see if a 150lb crossbow was inadequate for elk. In fact, it was this hunter who went forward to try and get the regs changed. This hunter has also donated much of his time to the elk relocation on the coast as well.

And finally, from what I understand from talking with one of our club members this week is the regs are being changed to include the following.
The use of a crossbow on region 2 elk will not be allowed in an archery only zone, unless it is by a disabled hunter. But a crossbow will be allowed in a rifle zone.

Sounds strange but it looks like that will be the outcome.

Bow Walker
01-26-2006, 05:46 PM
Take a peek at Rocksteady's gallery and view his elk-with-crossbow. Now that is a mighty fine animal!

rocksteady
01-26-2006, 06:57 PM
Thank you sir !!!!

I am not going to wade into the debate waist deep regarding x-bows (I will just sit here quitely and have another elk T-Bone)

:biggrin:

Elkhound
01-26-2006, 07:00 PM
I agree, nice elk. And I think any big game animal can be taken cleanly with a bow, crossbow, or rifle. I was only putting the facts out there about the wounding of the elk on the sunshine coast as Onesock had wrong info.

huntwriter
01-27-2006, 03:28 AM
By now this must be the longest ongoing thread on this forum and it is still interesting to read as the tempers have cooled off a bit.

Tank
01-27-2006, 10:59 AM
Well Brother jack you know one now!! Willy or Swamper can attest to the fact that all I hunt with is a compound bow . Mike






Sorry Mike! I was lookin over some old posts and just had to put this one out there:twisted: !

Note the date this quote was originaly posted, November 18th.....
Heres a pic of oldtimer the very next day!!!
A beauty 4 point shot with......a 243:eek: !!!!!


[IMG]http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/pops_buck_2005.jpg


Sorry again Mike! (especially since I'll have to see you agian this week:shock: ).

In his defence, he did have his bow with him at the time and this deer was out of range. With a rifle close at hand he did what any of us would of done!

Tank
01-27-2006, 11:01 AM
......Mike's gonna kill me:-|

tooty
01-27-2006, 02:39 PM
Well now,crossbows on big a roosey...better think hard.150 lb bow is not enough stuff, no matter where you stick it.200 lbs or just stay at home. Believe me I know.Pratice, pratice,pratice,oh yah many many hours.Shot placement...,studied all the books.Watching bolts almost bounce off on 20 yd heart shots ...angonizing.Crossbows on elk ,good luck brave foolish souls.

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 03:09 PM
Well now,crossbows on big a roosey...better think hard.150 lb bow is not enough stuff, no matter where you stick it.200 lbs or just stay at home.

It really depends on the crossbow in question. For instance, a Barnett Quad 400 is a 150lb crossbow that shoots 345FPS - which is faster than just about anything else on the market. My Horton SteelForce on the other hand, also a 150lb bow shoots aobut 220FPS.

greybark
01-27-2006, 03:55 PM
8-) Hey Brotherjack , Referance your crossbow what weight would that bolt be and it`s kinetic energy ??

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 03:56 PM
.200 lbs or just stay at home. .Crossbows ,good luck brave foolish souls.

Tooty, I have to take exception to your post.......

My bow is a 175 Horton Hunter Elite and has plenty of oooph to kill an elk (as the above picture shows)...My father inlaw has the same bow and consitantly shot right through whitetail deer..BOTH SIDES....The penetration on my bull was over 14 inches deep....Up to the fletching....

The difference in speed between a 175 and 200 pond bow, by the manufacturers stats is only about 5 fps....

I firmly believe that the biggest determining factor for penetration for any arrow (recurve, compound or cross) is the quality and strength of the broadhead...If the broadhead is crap and does not cut and enter properly, you will not have success.........


"Brave, foolish souls" in "your" opinion, in MY opinion, there is a place in the hunting community for crossbows, if you don't use one fine, but don't call me foolish.......

A crossbow is really no different than a compound bow...Both launch an arrow by a string mechanism, with a sharp point on the end, that is designed to put a hole in a critter.....People criticising others for using a x-bow versus a compund versus a recurve versus versus instinct shooting versus metal sight pins versus fibre optic pins is silly.....

Both have very similar range limitations (50 yards) and therefore people who are taking shots at 100 yards with crossbows, fall into the same category, to me as guys who take 700 yard shots with a .270/ 30-06/ or similar calibers.....I have also talked to compound shooters (as I am one) who have bragged that they have taken deer or elk at 75 yards.....SILLY, from an ethical point of view....

The start of the thread reminds me of the movie "Quigley Down UNder" where the old timer says to Quigley, "I see you got one of them new fangled telerscopic sights on that there peashooter...Those thinks don't work worth a s**t..." and then Quigley blows away a water bucket at 1000 yards.......Did scopes not evntually catch on ??

If you don't believe in the abilities or use of a certain tool (firearm, x-bow, slug gun, telerscopic site) DON'T BUY ONE !!!!!


As far as the power and abilities of crossbows, things have improved ten fold in the past 10 years.....The Old Barnetts were JUNK...No power and poor accuracy.. The new ones have a lot of power, and speed and incredible accuracy.....Horon, Ten Point, Excalibur, are all good....


I have a shoulder injury (rotator cuff tear) that prevents me from using my Hoyt FastFlite, so I bought the crossbow so that I could still enjoy the pleasure of bowhunting, as well as being able to take advantage of the special seasons......


There, my rant is over......All comments welcome.....

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 04:25 PM
8-) Hey Brotherjack , Referance your crossbow what weight would that bolt be and it`s kinetic energy ??

I shoot about a 450 grain arrow (assuming the OEM spec's on my heads and arrow are vaguely accurate - I don't have a scale), which coupled with my FPS (around 210 to 220 I estimate), puts me in the 44-48lbs of KE range. Plenty of KE to thump one cleanly through a broadside deer, that's for sure (proved that one last fall).

My crossbow is actually rated to shoot 240FPS, but that's with an arrow 100 grains lighter and 4 inches shorter than what I shoot with. I can't get decent groups out of the shorter/ligher arrows the SteelForce is supposed to shoot. I can split nocks with the 20" 450g carbon's though.

:)

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 05:45 PM
BrotherJack - Do me a favour and post me Kinetic Energy for the following...

Arrow weight - 450 grains at 305 fps (If you believe the manufacturer)

Thanks.......

tooty
01-27-2006, 06:16 PM
Well ,I was using a new Barnet rhino sport magnum 320 fps ,13 in'' power stroke ,grimmreaper broadheads.nuff said .

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 06:21 PM
Well, something in your setup is not right if they are bouncing off at 20 yards:?: :?:

tooty
01-27-2006, 06:30 PM
Well rocksteady I think that ol' stick shooter you have might do the trick on those tiny little rocky mountian elk.Take a poke at a 1200 lb roosey and watch it go 3km with 2 bolts in the kill zone .200 lb pull please.Like they say big bullets make big holes and big meals.Like my wife says bigger is better.Just not enough penetration to make a good clean kill,you think it's enough but to many elk here on sunshine coast are just not going down quick and its sad thats all.

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 06:32 PM
BrotherJack - Do me a favour and post me Kinetic Energy for the following...

Arrow weight - 450 grains at 305 fps (If you believe the manufacturer)


That should be about 93lbs of KE. Unless you're using an overly large broadhead or a switch-blade style mechanical, that should do the deed on anything in north america.

Here's where and how you can do your own calc's: http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/index.cfm

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 06:36 PM
Thanks BroJ...I use 1.25 inch 4 blade WASP JakHammers, 4 blade and they make ahell of an entrance....

I would be willing to try a Roosevelt....TOOTY - Seeing is believing, draw me a tag and I would be willing to publicly apologize if you proved me wrong...

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 06:39 PM
Well ,I was using a new Barnet rhino sport magnum 320 fps ,13 in'' power stroke ,grimmreaper broadheads.nuff said .

Assuming you're meaning the mechanical grim-reapers?? If so, yeah, that would make sense to me. Those switch-blade style mechanicals will waste a huge amount of KE trying to open on impact, and the 'wedge' effect because the blades are both fairly long, and don't fold very far back, and you've lost gobs and gobs of KE you think you should have because the bow shoots fast.

Go buy some Razorcaps, or maybe some small diameter (1" diamater) 2 or 3 blade heads and try that shot again. If you must use a mechanical (which I'm not knocking, because I use em too); Rocky Mtn Snypers or G5 Tekan's are mechanicaly far and away superior to any of the switchblade style heads: they will burn at most 5-6lbs of KE to open to blades.

tooty
01-27-2006, 06:43 PM
No need to apologize.I know we both want the same in the end .

tooty
01-27-2006, 06:44 PM
They were cut on contact

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 06:47 PM
Thanks BroJ...I use 1.25 inch 4 blade WASP JakHammers, 4 blade and they make ahell of an entrance....

Yep, that would do it. Way more blade than I'd wanna push with my dinky little x-bow, but at 90lbs+ of KE, you've certainly got the bow for it. :)

I use Rocky Mtn Snypers myself, the 2 bladed flavour.

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 06:47 PM
Did not mean to ruffle any feathers, but your post just got my blood a boilin....

I was gonna ask you if maybe you put the arrows in backwards (pointy end facing you) but that would have just been silly, adding more fuel to a controversial topic (13 page thread - WOW)...

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 06:50 PM
They were cut on contact

Which model head, exactly?

tooty
01-27-2006, 06:57 PM
Grimmreaper razor tip 125 gr Maybe the're no bloody good ??Sorry rocksteady.

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 07:13 PM
I use the 100 Grain WASP Jaks and they are phenomenal....4 blade mechanical with the chisel point..

Too bad we were not the guys on MythBusters we could test shoot all of these into a side of pork for evaluation....I think that could get very expensive.

No need to apologize, we all have our own opinions...On the Primos website, there are a ton of people who hunt deer with a .223 with a 50 grain pill....I think thats nuts, but if they can fill their freezer, so be it...I wont take a deer with anything less than a .243 with 100 grainers....

brotherjack
01-27-2006, 07:29 PM
Grimmreaper razor tip 125 gr Maybe the're no bloody good ??Sorry rocksteady.
It's not that they're no good; but looking at the design, I see a couple things that could hinder penetration in the circumstnace of a big tough critter like a roosey:

Jack-Knife style opening. This style of blade opening costs a significant chunk of your KE at the instant of impact. This style is also known to cause 'bounce out's when striking a significantly quartering animal.

1.75 inch cutting diameter. At that diameter, if you center a rib with the blades opening vertical, or tap a shoulder bone , that's a LOT of blade at only a 40 degree angle to push through bone.


With a lot of KE, these kinds of designs would kick butt on a deer sized critter (in which case that 1.75 inch diameter becomes your friend, because you've got the KE to split a deer rib easy and after that the more cut the better, and the jack-kinfe style blade design just means you need your critter closer to broadside before you let fly) - but I could see that head bouncing out of a tough old elk or moose in certain (but by no means all) circumstances.


Just food for thought.

:)

rocksteady
01-27-2006, 07:31 PM
Just went and checked, got to correct my own info, the heads are 100 Grain Wasp JakHammers select-a-cuts and are 1.75 in diameter 4 blade mechanicals....

tooty
01-27-2006, 08:00 PM
Oh yeah complete pass through on big mule deer at 30 to 40 yards with that setup,not elk though ...to tick en tuff

Ddog
02-03-2006, 12:24 AM
would this set up be a pass through on elk?
bow used: Martin fury
Arrow used: Gold Tip Hunter Expedition 5575
Broadhead used: Grim Reaper Mechanical chisel point 1 1/8" cutting diameter.
speed of Arrow on chrono 232fps
Bow set at 63lbs

Kirby
02-03-2006, 12:50 AM
Ddog, I would switch out the mech on a heavy animal like an elk. However that would definatly take an animal down if put in the boiler room, and wouldn't suprise me if it passed through. However I know guys who have hit elk with 75# bows cut on impact broadheads and had the arrows stop inside. Lots depends, hit a rib/shoulder, angle of hit all these factors change the penetration of an arrow.

Kirby

Ddog
02-03-2006, 02:44 AM
interesting....I love mechanicals though..and cant seem to switch them they just seem to do the job for me.
so..lets say an elk was walking just below me at about 20 yards and i hit the shoulder. would it pass through?
all that read this please respond, i would like everyones opinion on this one.
thanks...Ddog

Kirby
02-03-2006, 03:14 AM
interesting....I love mechanicals though..and cant seem to switch them they just seem to do the job for me.
so..lets say an elk was walking just below me at about 20 yards and i hit the shoulder. would it pass through?
all that read this please respond, i would like everyones opinion on this one.
thanks...Ddog

No. Not gonna get a pass though if you hit shoulder. I wouldn't trust a 70# 300 fps bow to pass through the sholders of an elk. You would likely get penetration into the lungs, but not much more.

Mechs will do the job, I went to mechs this year(I will be going back to fixed though). If you are set on mechs try using a head that takes less energy to open. Heads like the Grim reaper, Spit-fire take alot of energy to open, and don't cut the hide as well on the way in, leaving less bloodtrail. Heads like the Tekan head use less energy, and leave a bigger hole going in.
http://www.keystone-sports.com/i/broadheads/g5tekan.jpg

Kirby

Ddog
02-03-2006, 09:03 AM
just checking

Onesock
02-03-2006, 09:49 AM
60lb Longbow With 2 Blade Head.

J_T
02-03-2006, 10:12 AM
Ddog,

Nope. Not going to penetrate that bone. Two or three blade, cut on contact broadhead is the best solution. Others will just bounce out.

JT

Onesock
02-03-2006, 11:24 AM
Experience speaking?

J_T
02-03-2006, 11:27 AM
Absolutely. I dream about it nightly.

Onesock
02-03-2006, 12:35 PM
Among other things I hope.

Ddog
02-03-2006, 12:56 PM
you really think it wouldn't go through? not a chance? or a slim chance.

brotherjack
02-03-2006, 01:34 PM
you really think it wouldn't go through? not a chance? or a slim chance.
There's always a chance, heck, people have killed grizzly bears with .22LR's - lots of things can and have been done (not that I am recommending any such thing, mind you).

That said, are you really willing to go shoot a critter on the 'chance' that it will work, when you know for certain several things you could do to up that 'chance' tremendously for very little cost/effort? I'd reiterate the recommendations to get a better broadhead with some serious penetration characeteristics (Razorcaps would probably be my choice), and/or up your FPS/KE some more before shooting an elk. Elk are notoriously tough, espeically if you happen to center a rib or clip the shoulder, you want everything in your favour you can get.

greybark
02-03-2006, 01:44 PM
;) Hey Ddog , It would be a 50--50 proposition. The type of bone and location of hit on that bone would determine if a passthru occurred. Of course if a passthru did not happen chances are good( at best) that the animal would survive .
8-) The question is ,Are you willing to take that chance ?
:wink: The speed and kinetic energy of a 63lb compound gives you the option that both types of broadhead will perform well , However i favour the fixed blade cut on impact .


REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

huntwriter
02-03-2006, 01:54 PM
;) Hey Ddog , It would be a 50--50 proposition. The type of bone and location of hit on that bone would determine if a passthru occurred. Of course if a passthru did not happen chances are good( at best) that the animal would survive .
8-) The question is ,Are you willing to take that chance ?
:wink: The speed and kinetic energy of a 63lb compound gives you the option that both types of broadhead will perform well , However i favour the fixed blade cut on impact .


REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

I have to fully agree with that statement.

Kody94
02-03-2006, 02:10 PM
The start of the thread reminds me of the movie "Quigley Down UNder" where the old timer says to Quigley, "I see you got one of them new fangled telerscopic sights on that there peashooter...Those thinks don't work worth a s**t..." and then Quigley blows away a water bucket at 1000 yards.......Did scopes not evntually catch on ??
......All comments welcome.....

Under the category of useless trivia....I think you're mixing up your movies. :) Quigley's rifle didn't have a telescopic sight. It was a tang mounted peep on an 1874 Sharps in 45/110 with a 34" barrel.

Maybe you're thinking of Big Jake?

Cheers,
:) 4Ster

Ddog
02-03-2006, 02:50 PM
BrotherJack..my question to you..how long have you shot a bow at animals? how many have you taken down? you seem to have alot to say, is this read material or is it experience talking?

Ddog
02-03-2006, 06:49 PM
I geuss this thread has been hijacked by myself

brotherjack
02-03-2006, 10:36 PM
BrotherJack..my question to you..how long have you shot a bow at animals? how many have you taken down? you seem to have alot to say, is this read material or is it experience talking?

Mostly reading and talking with people who have a lot more experience than me. I've only stuck 2 with an arrow my own self. But some stuff is just plain physics - a jack-knife mechanical head with long blades that don't have a steep angle can't possibly penetrate as well as a cut-to-tip design with steep blade angles like say, a razorcap.

And yeah, I can be pretty mouthy, can't I? :biggrin:

brotherjack
02-03-2006, 10:36 PM
I geuss this thread has been hijacked by myself

Ah, go for it, the original thread was pretty beat to death by this point anyway. :biggrin::biggrin:

Kirby
02-03-2006, 10:46 PM
I geuss this thread has been hijacked by myself

Can you hijack your own thread? Wouldn't that be like charging yourself with sexual harrasment after you... uh never mind:lol:

Kirby

tooty
02-04-2006, 06:09 PM
A fellow here on the coast got a nice elk with a 70 lb compound bow at 10 yds,fixed broadhead .through the heart ,almost went out the otherside.But on a heart shot ....done deal .Oh ya 70 yds was as far as the old boy got. nicely done .If you don't hit the heart and don't have enough penatration to get both lungs that elk will go for miles and miles and miles...you get the picture.done it not fun.

Onesock
02-04-2006, 07:09 PM
Ddog. I don't think brotherjack shoots a bow. He shoots one of those other things that shouldn't be in bow only season!!!

brotherjack
02-04-2006, 09:58 PM
Ddog. I don't think brotherjack shoots a bow. He shoots one of those other things that shouldn't be in bow only season!!!
LOL... /me politely ignores the bait. Nope, not going to take it. Have to find someone else to razz. :tongue::tongue::tongue:

You did know, BTW, that I have years of shooting traditional bows under my belt, eh? Just never shot a critter with one.

Ddog
02-05-2006, 12:29 PM
Lmao @ Kirby...good one...funny stuff...

Oh and by BTW the mentioned scenario of what bow i was shooting and the circumstances of the elk was what happened on Sept 7/05 . the shot placement wasnt excactly where i wanted it but close..The cow elk went 65 yards and piled up..The arrow put a hole through the top of the shoulder blade and excited through the lung and a rib clean through..although she wasnt the biigest elk roaming the woods she was the lead cow in that group of about 20 and she weighed in on the butchers hook dressed at 375Lbs. and contrary to what i have been told about lead cows.. she is fantastic eating ...unbelievable..delicious..mmmmmmm now i am going to have elk steaks for dinner tonight.