excaliber crossbows

[ratherbefishin]

who has one-what do you like, dislike?And-what is your hunting experiance with them-effective range,how many deer have you taken with one, etc

[brotherjack]

Effective range of any bow (cross or otherwise) is 40 yards (with 20 yards being the preference). Otherwise, all I know about Excalibur's is that everyone I've ever met who owns one or has shot one swears they're the one of the best crossbows on the planet.

[willyqbc]

I have also heard nothing bad about the excalibers, but would like to comment on the statement that the effective range of ANY bow is 40 yards.

The effective range of the weapon is not in the weapon itself but rather the archers ability to shoot it. A decent compound/crossbow, properly set up is certainly lethal well beyond the effective range of the person holding it. Now we can get into what the magical number for EVERYONE is or we can just say that the effective range of the weapon is directly related to the skill and judgement of the person using it. And in case your wondering....the effective range of my bow is well beyond 40 yards allthough in close is always more fun!:smile:

Chris

[oldtimer]

As this is only my 3rd year bowhunting I feel very comfortable with a 40 yard shot and if circumstances are right I will take an animal at 50 yards.
I personally know several VERY efficient bowhunters whose effective range with their bows is 70+ yards so I have to disagree with previous post about 40 yards being the maximum effective range. But Willy is so right when he states the closer the more fun. My 2 cents ......Mike

[brotherjack]

The effective range has little to do with the ability to hit something at longer ranges. Spend enough time with your bow (crossbow or otherwise), and you can put an arrow where you want it at very long ranges. It's other issues that are the problem.

Just to highlight a single issue involved in longer range shooting - pickup a whitetail hunting DVD, and watch in stop-frame a 30-ish yard shot. You'll notice the deer is almost always in motion before the arrow reaches the deer. If you watch in stop frame, you'll see the deer can usually move a solid foot before the arrow strikes. Usually this motion is directly away from the path of the arrow, so the arrow still strikes true. But I have seen video of whitetails completely ducking the shot at sub-40 yards - for a clean miss from what was a perfectly aimed arrow.

To maximize the point I'm getting at - at 80 yards, a 240FPS arrow (real FPS, not IBO rating nonsense) takes a full second to reach the target. If I stood at 80 yards facing you blindfolded, and you let fly a perfect shot at my chest - in that full second, I could easily move my torso the 8 or so inches required to make that shot a miss, simply by moving left or right when I heard the string twang.

That's just one issue - there are certainly others - like the yardage estimations that get much tricker at longer yardage (especially if you're shooting the ultra-heavy arrows you need to maintain high KE at long range - they will be falling 4-6 inches every 5 to 7 yards and progressively shorter distances the farther you go), wind, minute arrow imperfections, broadheads catching air, and the whole host of other things that make taking a long range shot at an animal a relatively high risk proposition for either a miss, or worse a wounded animal.

I'm not saying that you're all that likely to miss at longer ranges if you've put in your practice and can put the arrow where you want it at those ranges - lots of guys take shots like that and usually make them. But, the chances of wounding an animal at 40+ yard ranges gets significant enough, that there is no crossbow maker that I am aware of that will not advise you that 40 yards is the maximum range, and that your goal should be 20 or less yard shots. Most bowhunting guides I've read have similar guidelines.

Anyhoo... everyone has to make their own calls in the field, and I too know guys who have (and probably will continue) to take long shots who haven't missed or wounded an animal yet (that they'll admit to anyway).... Good for them - I hope they never wound one and can't recover it; because that's an awful feeling I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[huntwriter]

I have also heard nothing bad about the excalibers, but would like to comment on the statement that the effective range of ANY bow is 40 yards.

The effective range of the weapon is not in the weapon itself but rather the archers ability to shoot it. A decent compound/crossbow, properly set up is certainly lethal well beyond the effective range of the person holding it. Now we can get into what the magical number for EVERYONE is or we can just say that the effective range of the weapon is directly related to the skill and judgement of the person using it. And in case your wondering....the effective range of my bow is well beyond 40 yards allthough in close is always more fun!:smile:

Chris
Very well said. To many hunters are mislead by statistics and manufacturer advertising. My opinion on the shooting distance under hunting conditions is that if you can shoot on the target range every single arrow in a 6" cirlcle at, lets say 25 yards, with absolute confidence then your hunting distance is about one third less which is 16 yards. In fact I have never encountered a good target shooter that also was a good deer killer because of his target skills. Some years back I hunted in Illinois with a friend who happen to be the state archery champion. In the woods he couldn't hit a barn door if he tried. This changed once he practised shooting under hunting conditions. His comment to me "These are two complete different pair of shoes". My point exactly.

To become efficient and confident the shooter should practise only shooting arrows under field conditions. Once a bow, or rifle, is sighted I never again will shoot at a range only under field conditions. I will practise all year long every day all the different scenarios I may encounter in a hunting situation. Including the awkward shots like twisting my upper body backward, quick shots, of balance shots, steep up, steep down and leaning around trees and bushes. Also shots under stress and heavy breathing for which I run until I huff and puff then pick up the bow run in range to the target and shoot. This build confidence in your weapon and your ability so when that shot presents itself in the deer woods you know you can take that shot. The difference here is knowing or beliving. I rather know than belive or think I could do it.

[huntwriter]

A friend and fellow outdoor writer e-mailed me today that he just has field tested a Horton 150 crossbow and is well pleased with it. He looks forward to take it hunting next week. Finally more and more American states legalize crossbows not only for disabled hunters.

Last week I looked at some Excalibur crossbows and look forward to have one sent to me shortly for field testing. From reliable sources I am informed that the Ten Point makes very good crossbows too. It always has been my believe that weapons from different manufacturers in the same pricerange are quality wise are very similar. I find that it is best to try as many different crossbows as possible and buy the one that fits and suit best. Buying a weapon because of the name on it is in my opinion never very good and often a recipe for disapointment. The brandname is the last thing I worry about.

[oldtimer]

Brotherjack----- I don't know anybody that shoots as slow as 240 fps !! Most people in our archery club shoot in the 280 and up range with the maximum being about 320. I myself shoot at 289 fps. These are all cronografh speeds.
I can't speak about white tail hunting as I hunt mulies but I do watch the videos and it is my impression that most of those hunters use a light poundage/heavy arrow combination so your point about the animal moving is very valid. However a properly tuned bow is much quieter and an arrow at 280 to 300 fps doesn't give them much chance to move that 12" you mention.
Hunterwriter---- once my bow is sighted in the majority of my practice involves 3D shoots which is an excellent test of your ability. Our club also has a hunter warm-up shoot every year and you can shoot from any yardage and angle you want. Very good practice and it usually ends up with mini competitions where each archer picks a different spot on the 3D animal when it is his turn in the rotation. Closest to the 10x gets a point, most points wins, this usually involves slight wagering. great practice.
Again , just my opinion. Mike

[J_T]

BrotherJack,


To maximize the point I'm getting at - at 80 yards, a 240FPS arrow (real FPS, not IBO rating nonsense) takes a full second to reach the target. If I stood at 80 yards facing you blindfolded, and you let fly a perfect shot at my chest - in that full second, I could easily move my torso the 8 or so inches required to make that shot a miss, simply by moving left or right when I heard the string twang.

While I agree hole heartedly with you. I'll let you test out your theory above. haha

Huntwriter

My opinion on the shooting distance under hunting conditions is that if you can shoot on the target range every single arrow in a 6" cirlcle at, lets say 25 yards, with absolute confidence then your hunting distance is about one third less which is 16 yards. In fact I have never encountered a good target shooter that also was a good deer killer because of his target skills.
I couldn't agree more. Target is very different than hunting and killing. So many variables. Your effective range analogy is bang on.

I have had elk at 20 yards, duck my arrow completely. Dropping a good 24 inches in the time it takes my arrow to travel there. If you see their skin ripple, don't shoot.

JT

[brotherjack]

BrotherJack,
While I agree hole heartedly with you. I'll let you test out your theory above. haha

I have had elk at 20 yards, duck my arrow completely. Dropping a good 24 inches in the time it takes my arrow to travel there. If you see their skin ripple, don't shoot.


Heh; I didn't say I was willing to demonstrate it, I was just using that scenario to illustrating the point which that elk already proved to you. :)

[willyqbc]

Brotherjack.....I understand what your saying which is why i stated that it was dependant on the "skill and JUDGEMENT" of the archer. Perhaps i should have expanded on that. Part of the judgement is deciding when/where/on what animal and under what conditions to take the shot. I personally will not take the longer shot unless conditions are perfect for it ie. the animal is broadside and unaware...no wind and I know the exact yardage via my range finder. Now that being said the species being hunted also has to be taken into consideration....i would not attempt a 50 yard shot on a whitetail due to their skttish nature but would not hesitate on a 70 yard shot on a moose (not noted for their ability to jump a string LOL!!) I also believe that with the wind in your face the chance of an animal jumping the string is less at a distance due to the fact that it is less likely to hear the shot. i know of several friends who have taken deer at distance when the deer was not even aware of the hit let alone the shot....one actually went back to feeding before it fell over dead.
Your example about standing blindfolded in front of the shot does not work because you are aware and anticipating the shot.....this goes back to my point about not shooting at distance on animals that are aware of your presence. And I have to agree with Oldtimer that the days of the 240fps 600grain arrow are on the way out, these days you will find many more hunters with the 280fps 400 grain arrow combo. myself I shoot a 440grain arrow at 298fps(chronographed) and I can assure you this set-up produces more than enough energy at a distance. 2 years ago i took a deer at 57 yards... i broke ribs going in and coming out and found my arrow buried up to the shaft in a pine a full 20 yards beyond the point of impact.
Now i'm not saying this is for everyone, i know of many week-end flingers who have no business shooting at an animal at 30 yards let alone 60. I however shoot every day in the spring/summer leading up to the fall season and several nights a week in the winter. I attended 23 3d shoots last year, my hunting bow and 3d bow are exact copies of each other so all my 3d'ing is practice in hunting scenarios. I also practice at the range shhoting from my knees, leaning out to the side odd yardages etc.
My point in all of this remains the same....long range shooting is completely dependant on the individual archer. Any shot is a risk but there are definately things that can be done to reduce that risk as much as possible whether it be on a 25 yard shot or on a 70 yard shot!

Chris

PS....good debate:mrgreen:

[brotherjack]

Brotherjack.....I understand what your saying which is why i stated that it was dependant on the "skill and JUDGEMENT" of the archer.
I do understand where you're coming from. As I said, lots of guys take longer shots, and if they've put in the practice and know thier stuff, they are far more often than not, successful at those long shots. I'm not disagreeing with you in that sense. I'm not even trying to talk you out of taking those shots if you feel comfortable with them (well, maybe a little... :mrgreen:).

But the fact remains, that taking say an 80 yard shot with a bow, is akin to taking a 400 yard shot with a rifle. It can be done, and people have done and continue to do it, but the risk of a wounded animal vs a clean kill is significant enough that such shots are strongly advised against by a lot more people who know a whole lot more than just mouthy little ole me. ;-) The companies that make crossbows that shoot up to 350ish FPS with nock-splitting accuracy also agree, that 40 yards is the outter limit of 'sure thing' shooting, and that 20 yards is really what you're striving for.

[ratherbefishin]

actually, 40 yards is not too far off my average firearms shot on all deer,so being able to make a humane kill at that range isn't much of a handicap

[brotherjack]

actually, 40 yards is not too far off my average firearms shot on all deer,so being able to make a humane kill at that range isn't much of a handicap

Yeah, the longest shot I think I've ever taken at a critter with a rifle was barely 40 yards (maybe closer to 30, I never paced it off, but it wasn't far). The vast majority of stuff I've shot with a rifle has been at 15 to 25 yards. Longest shot with a bow was 15 yards. Hunting in thick bush like I do just doesn't lend itself to long range shooting, even if I wanted to get into it. :grin:

[J_T]

Chris,

my hunting bow and 3d bow are exact copies of each other so all my 3d'ing is practice in hunting scenarios

This is something that I observe at many 3d shoots. Too many guys, who refer to themselves as hunters, are after points at the shoots and are compromising their hunting equipment for performance. When I see a guy shooting solid heavy arrows at a 3d, I know I've seen a hunter that cares.

Good on ya Chris.

JT

[islandhunter]

ratherbefishin, going back to the original post, i bought an excalibur vixen( i think its their entry level bow) this year for about 4 or 500 bucks and was worth every penny! i thought it would be cheaper quality being the entry level but it is extremely well built. it shoots a bit slower than some of the other crossbows, 290 or so, but really how fast do you need to go?this thing will shoot through 2 hay bails at 30 yards. i can group about 3 or 4 inches at all yardages up to 40 quite easily. i havent tried shooting it any further yet. the only downfall i,d say would be the awkward size of the limbs tip to tip, 3 feet. but it sure is a pleasure to shoot.

[huntwriter]

Chris,
Quote:
"...so all my 3d'ing is practice in hunting scenarios..."

Pardon me for disageeing all the way. I do a lot of hunting and I have done much of it with 3-D archers even champions and absolutly none of them, unless they had hunting experience, was a good hunting acher (deer killer).

The reason for this is quit simple. At the 3-D Range the distance to the target is known to the archer. The shooter has all the time to make the shot and concentrate on his stance and all that. Most shots at 3-D are streight ahead, slightly up or down. 3-D Targets don't move or jump the string.

In the hunting scenario you rarley if ever have the perfect stance or string pull and many times your body has to be twisted and bent or you are off balance or have to make a quick snap shot to get the arrow into the vitals of an animal. At distances further than 20 yards do you know how low to hold to hit the vitals should the deer jump the string? At this distance a deer can drop as much as a full foot to avoid the arrow and you will be amazed how quickly it can do that.That to my mind needs to be practised to gain hunting (killing) confidence and that is what I do all year long every day in my back yard and a lot of stump shooting too without checking the distance only guessing. I shoot arrows in the evening when the sun goes down, when it rains or snows, when it is boiling hot or freezing cold, when I am tired and worn out, with thick bulky clothing, sitting, bending my body out of shape and standing on one leg and so on. I even designed a simple target which trops at any given time like a deer that jumps the string. I am a terrible 3-D archer but I am a very good deer killer and when that string comes back to my anchor point I know the game is over.

You never will get that sort of practiese on a 3-D range, I know because like I said I been there on many of them. Once I was loosing points for shooting an arrow at a somewhat steep quartering away 3-D animal. Of course the arrow was nowhere near in the circle and thus I lost, I always loose on 3-D shots because I am a bow hunter not an archer. But in the fild on a real life animal it would have been deadly taking out both lungs and the heart. You see what I mean;).

[willyqbc]

to address some of huntwriters comments
I was a hunter long before I ever picked up a bow and am quite aware of what it takes to put an animal on the ground with my archery tackle. To assume that if one does not approach 3-d in the way you do that they are not getting beneficial practice for hunting situations is quite arrogant in my opinion. I don't know what 3-D courses you have been on but I have never been to a shoot where the yardage was known, and most have had very challenging up/down, akward stance, quartering shots. Oh...and i never GUESS yardage when it comes to shooting at an animal, I KNOW the yardage via my rangefinder or I do not shoot. Now I do play to win when shooting 3-D but that does not mean that i don't know the difference between the 10 ring and the kill shot, and any practice in the woods that is designed to make you put your arrow in a precise position under less than feild range conditions is worthwhile in my opinion.


I shoot arrows in the evening when the sun goes down, when it rains or snows, when it is boiling hot or freezing cold, when I am tired and worn out, with thick bulky clothing, sitting, bending my body out of shape and standing on one leg and so on


don't assume that just because a person may shoot several forms of target archery that they do not apply the same dedication to hunting practice. I take my practice seriously whether I am practising for 3-D, FITA, or hunting and practice from all the same scenarios you describe in the quote...


I always loose on 3-D shots because I am a bow hunter not an archer.

you seems to assume in your post that one is either an archer or bowhunter and that you must be one or the other.....well sir, I and many others are both and do both quite successfully.

as always... just my opinion
Chris

[greybark]

:-D Hey Willie , Good post and I agree with everthing you said. Heck I may have used (OK I really did) that "lost the 3-d shoot because I am a bowhunter" excuse a long time ago.

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

[Nails]

Good point Willy, plain and simple.

[oldtimer]

Hunterwriter--- have to agree with Willy ( not just because he is my son ) and Greybark. I have NEVER EVER been on a 3D shoot that the yardage is known. Where do you 3D shoot ?? I want to go there !!!
All the shoots I have attended have a extremely good selection of realistic hunting shots. Like Greybark, when I miss the 10 ring I will say well it was a good kill shot !! We are not so stupid as to not know the difference between a scoring shot and a kill shot when we have a quartering shot or a bedded buck or very steep downhill shot. I invite you to come up north and experience the quality of our 3D shoots.
MIKE

[Onesock]

Anyone that shoots at animals at 70 yards is doing the sport of bowhunting a terrible injustice. Number 1- 3D TARGETS cannot move, were as a real animal can take a step while feeding after the arrow is fired and a great shot can turn into a wound or better yet a miss . Number 2- I have never seen anyone get the fever whist shooting at a 3D TARGET. Hunting situations are 100 times more exciting. I don't know anyone that can consitantly shoot 6 inch groups in unknown terrain on a rainy day with the wind blowing even with the help of a range finder. If we want to shoot at animals at 70 yards the sport of bowhunting would be better off if we shot this distance with rifles.

[Onesock]

I missed this in my previous posts. 3D shooting is a game, hunting is not.

[Bow Walker]

This has gone way off topic from the original subject!:arrow:



Yet - it has turned into one of the more civilized debates/discussions of hunting tactics/skills/ethics that I have had the pleasure to read. This would not have happened on AT (which, as we all know is filled mainly with red necks;) )

My .02 worth? Hardly worthwhile but here goes.............

Shooting at any type of animal - with archery equipment - at ranges over 50 yards (you change it to meters if you want to) is just begging for problems. I agree with most here who are of the opinion that a viable shot should not be taken at ranges over 40 yards.

Personally, my effective range while practicing is in the 45 - 55 yard area. While hunting I do not shoot at animals - and expect an effective hit - at anything over 35 yards. The critters have a too well developed "fight-or-flight" reflex for me to take the chance.

I dread wounding an animal and not being able to track it down - and then having to leave it, hoping for "nature take its course" as was posted in a different thread here on this site.

As hunters, I believe that we have a real, moral, and ethical obligation to ensure that the animals we shoot at (gun, bow, or what-have-you) are killed right now. Or as soon as humanly possible. Do it quick. This will make your harvest much more inviting to eat and to enjoy.

Even those that trophy hunt want a quick, clean kill so as not to mess up the intended trophy mount. What they do with the meat is a whole other can of worms.

Keep up the amicable style of debate!

Dan.

[willyqbc]

This has gone way off topic from the original subject!:arrow:


WOW! no kidding...major hijack, sorry bout that ratherbefishin:oops:

Chris

[huntwriter]

Yet - it has turned into one of the more civilized debates/discussions of hunting tactics/skills/ethics that I have had the pleasure to read. This would not have happened on AT (which, as we all know is filled mainly with red necks. )

Dan.
That is the reason why I like this forum so much, I am a member of about 30 Forums all about hunting and I do have to say this is the most civilized one I have the pleasure to post my opinions. That his how it should be that is how we can learn from each other and profit from each others opinions.

By the way Dan, I am a red neck, a Swiss red neck that is and I am proud of it.:D
A good red neck stays with both feet firmly on the ground, he is a true patriote and he hates any form of political correctness and bigotry. And most red necks I know are like this and not the drunken inbreed that they are made out to be.;)

[oldtimer]

Hunterwriter-----------------WELL SAID !! Even if we differ on ideas I will defend your right to say them. Good debate---- even if I am the only right one LOL;)

[Bow Walker]

If that is the definition of a Redneck then I am definitely one as well. I am and always will be a Canadian, a listener, and I am not considered to be politically correct!