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brotherjack
10-10-2005, 05:19 PM
It may be funny looking, but WOW, check out the spec's on this amazing little piece of engineering. I wonder if it's legal in Canada?

http://www.swisscrossbow.ch/html/twinbow_II.asp

http://www.swisscrossbow.ch/images/tb_II_370fps_gross.jpg


(http://www.swisscrossbow.ch/html/twinbow_II.asp)

Fred
10-11-2005, 01:04 AM
That thing seems to be based on the parralell limb system like the new Mathews bows. Fred

J_T
10-11-2005, 10:20 AM
Yup, sure looks like a "bow" to me. What is wrong with that picture. You could post that pic on the rifle section of this site and ask guys to check out the specs on that new rifle and it would be more appropriate.

I have difficulty with that being called a bow.

JT

brotherjack
10-11-2005, 11:58 AM
I have difficulty with that being called a bow.


That's why it's called a "crossbow". ;)

But seriously, I'm curious how come? Just because it shoots fast, and has a non-traditional design? If you made a compound bow using the same/similar kind of 4way limb system, I'd expect you could push the same kind of obscene FPS - would you call something like that a bow?

I'm really not trying to pick on ya, I'm honestly curious as to why. I've shot both stickbow and crossbow, and to me, a bow is a bow - putting one on the end of a stick with a trigger doesn't change much in my view (you still have trajectory/yardage estimation issues, consistency of draw issues, arrow issues, fletching issues, broadhead issues, and all the other issues stick/compound bow shooters have to deal with - plus a few of it's own because the high poundage/short powerstroke amplifies any accuracy affecting issues).

brotherjack
10-11-2005, 12:13 PM
That thing seems to be based on the parralell limb system like the new Mathews bows. Fred

It's actualy like having two bows mountd parallel to each other, and using a cats-cradle looking string setup to use the force of both bows to launch a single arrow. I'm guessing that having 4 limbs/cams instead of 2 makes it possible for a tremendously higher forward travel rate of the serving, without having to increase the poundage of the bow too much (if any).

I'd be REAL curious to see how accurate it is though - pushing an arrow 0 to 370FPS in 8 inches of powerstroke just seems to me like it would cause any minor imperfection in the arrow(s) to be amplified into accuracy affecting problems...

But regardless, this is a groundbreaking innovation in bow/crossbow design, and I'm jazzed to see it. :)

J_T
10-11-2005, 01:40 PM
BrotherJ,

Visually: does this look like a bow?

Fundamentally: Shoulder held, trigger release, scope sights, not held under the archer's own power. Does it sound like a bow?

Morally: Archery seasons are often implemented at times when animals are most vulnerable. Fair chase suggests that restrictions be placed on the hunter. Thus archery - suggesting short range. Defining fair chase we must understand the animals zone of comfort (20 yards, or 100 yards). Many hunters will agree that even an accurate crossbow should not be shot at an animal beyond 40 yards, but that isn't always the case.

From a treestand, with a compound or a trad bow, the shooter, at some point, must come to draw (and hold it), this provides the animal with an opportunity to see or hear the motion and move out (fair chase). With a crossbow, success is increased because you can sit with the crossrifle loaded reducing movement and noise.

Range is an issue, and while a crossrifle might be accurate at 100 yards, is it effective? How many hunters know the difference between accuracy and effectiveness?

Another factor (IMHO) is that with an increase in archery only seasons, rifle hunters will see the crossbow as a quick way to increase hunting time/seasons. Buying a crossbow 2 days before the season is not acceptable. Data from Cranbrook this past September supports that rifle hunters (without bowhunting experience) do purchase crossbows just prior to the season. The risk is an increase in wounding and recovery loss.

JT

BlacktailStalker
10-11-2005, 01:43 PM
The bolt is propelled by a cord/ string. That classifys it as a crossbow. If it was a pin, igniting a charge etc than its a gun. Just looks like a damn sweet crossbow thats all. Personally I dont use a crossbow. A rifle is great if you just want to find the animal and get a shot off, a bow is great for mastering or fine tuning (or lucking out) every detail to get close enough for a shot. A crossbow is in between so I'd rather do one or the other. Again, personally.Good Luck to all.

brotherjack
10-11-2005, 03:15 PM
Visually: does this look like a bow?

Fundamentally: Shoulder held, trigger release, scope sights, not held under the archer's own power. Does it sound like a bow?

Morally: Archery seasons are often implemented at times when animals are most vulnerable. Fair chase suggests that restrictions be placed on the hunter. Thus archery - suggesting short range. Defining fair chase we must understand the animals zone of comfort (20 yards, or 100 yards). Many hunters will agree that even an accurate crossbow should not be shot at an animal beyond 40 yards, but that isn't always the case.

From a treestand, with a compound or a trad bow, the shooter, at some point, must come to draw (and hold it), this provides the animal with an opportunity to see or hear the motion and move out (fair chase). With a crossbow, success is increased because you can sit with the crossrifle loaded reducing movement and noise.

Range is an issue, and while a crossrifle might be accurate at 100 yards, is it effective? How many hunters know the difference between accuracy and effectiveness?

Another factor (IMHO) is that with an increase in archery only seasons, rifle hunters will see the crossbow as a quick way to increase hunting time/seasons. Buying a crossbow 2 days before the season is not acceptable. Data from Cranbrook this past September supports that rifle hunters (without bowhunting experience) do purchase crossbows just prior to the season. The risk is an increase in wounding and recovery loss.

JT

Again, I'm really not trying to have an argument here, even though I guess it looks like it - I'm really honestly trying to understand where you're coming from. I really don't even disagree with you on the fact that the issues you raise are problems - I just disagree that the crossbow has anything to do with those problems.

Visually: would a u-pull-it designed on the same principal (opposed limbs/4 cam) resemble a bow any more than this one does? It would not - so does that make any design that deviates from the traditional or compound bow disqualified?

Fundamentally: advanced sighting systems and triggers can and are used on compound bow's by tons of shooters, so the only difference here is that it is not held under the archer's own power and shoulder held (is shoulder held considered an advantage?).

Morally: A crossbow has just as short a range (if not a little shorter) than a good compound bow. There is not a hunting crossbow maker that I am aware of, that does not explicitly state that the maximum hunting range of their product is 40 yards, and recommend that the vast majority of successful shots are taken at 20 yards or less and suggest you limit your hunting to those ranges. By the same token, there are plenty of guys with compound bows that are out in the field trying 60 or more yard shots at critters. So morally, the real issue with range, is anyone with any bow (cross or not) trying to shoot critters at too long a range is the issue - not the weapon with which they're trying to do so (because neither can exeed the other in terms of effective range - though this one at 370FPS might add a few yards or so to the 'real' effective range of the weapon in question - assuming it doesn't have accuracy issues at that range becuase of 16 inch arrows on an 8 inch powerstroke).

As to movement/fair chase - lots of u-pull-it shooters use one of the many tent-blind or shoot-through camo net setups to cover their movement from the critter, even a treestand puts you out of the immediate sight of the critter, so I don't think this really counts as a big thing in favour of the crossbow - though I do agree, there are some situations in which this is an advantage to the crossbow shooter. (though in my own experience, every critter I've ever shot with a crossbow, I was sitting in plain sight of the critter, and had to move significantly to get the bow up and aimed for a shot - and I've spooked more critters than I've shot because of that very fact).

Also, as to rifle guys who buy a crossbow 2 days before hunting season, how are they worse than the guy who buys a CanadianTire compund bow the same day because of the either-sex archery season? Or the compound bow shooter who dusts his bow off a day or two before the season starts, shoots a couple sets of 3 in the backyard at 30 yards and then hits the bush opening day? I've met way more of them than I have guys who shoot year round. Again, I think the issue here, is the attitude/actions of certain people, not the weapon in question.

And just food for thought - in Cranbrook, the majorty (if not the vast majority) of the rifle hunters around here just get in a truck, drive till they see antlers, and jump out and shoot (the elk hunters vary this formula with jumping out of the truck to blow a bugle every few kilometers). You really think guys with those kinds of skills are in any danger of getting close enough to even wound a critter with a weapon they have no experience with and little understanding of? Not saying it doesn't/hasn't happened, but in general, I would be pretty surprised if the wounding rate went up this year - other than in direct porportion to the larger number of guys in the bush with a bow because of the either-sex seasion, be the bow cross or otherwise...

Anyway...

zedex
10-11-2005, 03:21 PM
I dont know about crossbows. At least with a traditional compound or recurve you need some skill and strength to shoot it. As well as being very quiet and being very close to the animal. With crossbows any joe can pick one up, and as long as you know how to shoot a gun your able to bag an animal. Seems kind of unfair being able to hunt in the bow only season with a crossbow.

Fred
10-11-2005, 10:50 PM
Zedex, If that is what you believe then ask BCHunter about crossbows. I bought his new Barnett RC150 off of him because he had so much trouble shooting it. By the way, Danny, can I please have the original pins for the sight, this 22 scope sucks! :lol: Fred

brotherjack
10-11-2005, 11:00 PM
I dont know about crossbows. At least with a traditional compound or recurve you need some skill and strength to shoot it. As well as being very quiet and being very close to the animal. With crossbows any joe can pick one up, and as long as you know how to shoot a gun your able to bag an animal. Seems kind of unfair being able to hunt in the bow only season with a crossbow.


Bwhahahaa....

Sorry, but any joe can NOT pick up a crossbow and shoot accurately with it. It's a bow on the end of a stick - it's still a bow, and it still takes work and time and tuning before you can hit your mark with it. Go buy one and have a go with it, and you'll see what I mean. :mrgreen:

tmarschall
10-12-2005, 05:05 AM
Here is 2 cents from south of the border... way south!! Crossbows are only legal here during the rifle season. The only exception is someone who is handicapped and cannot shoot a regular bow. I have never shot a crossbow and I haven't got a clue as to why the laws are that way here, but they are. Having no experience with a crossbow I can only speculate as to the right place for their use, and that would only be my opinion. Its up to the legislatures to hear our opinions and make the laws. If we don't like them we need to try to get them changed. The one thing we all can do is try to get more real sportsmen out in the field. No matter how much we try, we cannot legislate morality. A slob can pick up any weapon and head to the bush. Supporting and making gun and archery clubs and shooting ranges available, is one way to gain access to the slobs in an effort to convert/educate them. When you boil it all down, I think that is where the real issue lies, having real sportsmen in the field and not idiots.

sealevel
10-12-2005, 07:18 AM
One thing that concerns me with crossbows is loosing archery season . We use to have a muzzle loader season there was soom ml seasons on the island some moose up north. But with all the inlines on the market that shoot accurite to 150 yards our game dept. canseld the muzzle loading season. I would hate to have that happen to archery just because of crossbows shooting 378 fps. IMO put crossbows in the rifle season

J_T
10-12-2005, 07:29 AM
BJ,



Sorry, but any joe can NOT pick up a crossbow and shoot accurately with it. It's a bow on the end of a stick - it's still a bow, and it still takes work and time and tuning before you can hit your mark with it. Go buy one and have a go with it, and you'll see what I mean. :mrgreen:
Well, in part that is exactly the point. Too many rifle hunters see a similarity and moments before opening, they view the regs....see great archery only opportunity and believe that with a quick purchase of a crossbow, they can take advantage of the opportunity.

But any joe can pick up a crossbow and believe they have become proficient enough with it in short order. Absolutely. And this is much different than with a compound or trad bow.

Case in point, I was in Cranbrook just prior to the opening of elk season (Sep 01), I was in a store where I know the owner and guys that work there. They had sold 40 some odd crossbows in the last two days, and had guys lined up waiting for more. There was a genuine concern.

Tcmarschall,

In the US, the PBS (Professional Bowhunters Society) have gathered data, produced video and successfully lobbied for the removal of crossbows (with exception of disabled) in most archery seasons for a number of reasons. The number one reason is that it is not a bow. The second reason is that using a crossbow when animals are most vulnerable results in increased harvesting and in many jurisdictions this tips the scales of sound wildlife management.

Case in point: In Wisconsin an archery only deer season opened up as a management tool. In the first two years, only "existing" bowhunters took advantage of the season and harvest numbers where as officials had projected. In the third year a significant increase in crossbow users, resulted in the harvest increasing exponentially, by the fifth year, the crossbow was removed from the archery only season. It crosses the line.

JT

Ronforca
10-12-2005, 08:28 AM
And here I was going to purchase a crossbow.I think that I still will.Being retired
I should be able to get in lots of practice.

brotherjack
10-12-2005, 10:32 AM
Too many rifle hunters see a similarity and moments before opening, they view the regs....see great archery only opportunity and believe that with a quick purchase of a crossbow, they can take advantage of the opportunity.

But any joe can pick up a crossbow and believe they have become proficient enough with it in short order. Absolutely. And this is much different than with a compound or trad bow.

Case in point, I was in Cranbrook just prior to the opening of elk season (Sep 01), I was in a store where I know the owner and guys that work there. They had sold 40 some odd crossbows in the last two days, and had guys lined up waiting for more. There was a genuine concern.


But do you really think those same yahoo's a few days before the opener wouldn't have been lined up to buy compound bow's if crossbows weren't allowed in the archery season? The either-sex elk and whitetail got a bunch of people interested in hunting during that season - and they were just doing what they percieved as the easiest way to get in on that season. If the easiest way was something else, I bet 95% of them would have done whatever it took to be legal to get out and hunt in the either-sex season. I also bet 95% of them didn't even get within 50 yards of a critter the whole season.

Please don't get me wrong - I do 100% agree with you, that hunters in the woods who don't know their weapon well enough to be effective and to stay within the limitations of their equipment and their own skill is a problem - be that weapon a bow, crossbow, rifle, whatever. I just think that this problem is a people problem, and an education problem, and has essentially nothing to do with any given weapon type.

And as to increased harvest numbers - I think that when you get more hunters in the woods, the harvest numbers go up. When you exclude by law crossbow hunters, you have fewer hunters in the bush, and harvest numbers go down. When you include them, the oposite happens, and havest numbers go up.

Anyway, I suppose we should just agree to disagree on crossbows, we're obviously not going to change each other's minds, and I'd rather be your friend than debate this until it turns into an argument. Sound like a deal? (extending virtual handshake).

tmarschall
10-12-2005, 11:02 AM
On the lighter side... here is a personal experience where I can relate a crossbow to a compound bow. It was my first ever elk hunt with a bow. I had practiced untill I was consistently grouping 2 inches at 35 yds. We had this bull really worked up. We were hunting think cover and I was beside an old logging road. The bull was up above and my buddy was calling from down below. I could see the trees shaking where the bull was rubbing his antlers on them, my buddy was simulating the same by rubbing deadwood against trees. Suddenly the bull came out of the brush, crossed the road, and stopped broadside 10 yds from me!!!! Before I could come to full draw he turned and looked at me. It would take 15 minutes to describe all the thoughts that ran through my mind in the next 5 seconds. But I will say, had I had a crossbow, I would have followed him across the road and fired before he even turned to look at me. Assuming I wasn't shaking too badly... it would have been an easy shot. As it was, I tried to slowly come to full draw and he bolted away. Equipment issues aside, it was by far the most memorable experience in my 40 years of hunting. Memories don't fill the freezer, but they do last longer!!!!!

zedex
10-12-2005, 11:53 AM
Well. My hunting buddy just bought a new crossbow. excaliber, their best model.(the one on the second last page of the bc synopsis.) Never shot or owned any bow in his life. Took a few shots at his styrofoam backstop. Went out. Shot a 3 point buck the second day of bow season this year. My buddy is no marksman. But he bagged a buck just like that. I shot his bow as well and hit almost dead center of the target at 50 yds. Never shot a crossbow in my life either. Granted our names aren't Joe. But we can shoot one like nothing. No skill involved.

I have nothing against crossbow owners. Just not my cup of tea.

Onesock
10-12-2005, 04:45 PM
Brotherjack: I would say that 99% of all crossrifle hunters are opportunist rifle hunters taking advantage of the hard work of real bowhunters. I have not seen any crossrifle shooters at one meeting lobbying for bow hunting seasons. We have been fighting for more bow season's for years, and now others feel this an easy way to extend their rifle season. I am not saying you are one of these fellows, but I am wondering why you choose this instead of a real bow. These "advances in technology" will soon ruin bow seasons for all of us. I can agree with handicapped persons hunting with a crossrifle but only in the GOS. One way to stop the buying of crossrifles two days before opening day is make bowhunter education mandatory. At least then we would have the comfort of knowing these newbies have a small idea of what they are dealing with.

Gateholio
10-12-2005, 05:25 PM
Brotherjack: I would say that 99% of all crossrifle hunters are opportunist rifle hunters taking advantage of the hard work of real bowhunters. I have not seen any crossrifle shooters at one meeting lobbying for bow hunting seasons. .

I'm not sure what a crossrifle is, I assume you are incorrectly describing a crossbow as a rifle?

However- I'm not surprised you don't see any crossbow hunters lobbying for you. Only about 10% of the hunters ever even bother to join thier local club.

So get used to it, for about 5% of the people do 95% of the work when it comes to political lobbying, volunteeer work, etc.

Gateholio
10-12-2005, 05:33 PM
I think that all bow hunting shoudl be done with a home made longbow.

No compounds allowed.

COmpounds make it unfair, as it is easier to kill with a compound than a longbow.;-)

islandhunter
10-12-2005, 05:46 PM
i just switched this year to crossbow from compound and am quite happy with my decision. theres a pretty big difference between shooting a rifle at 2700 fps and nocking game down where it stands 250 yards away, and taking a deer at 25 yards with a pinpoint shot. nothing against the traditional bowhunters out there though. good on ya'll.

brotherjack
10-12-2005, 06:06 PM
Brotherjack: I would say that 99% of all crossrifle hunters are opportunist rifle hunters taking advantage of the hard work of real bowhunters. I have not seen any crossrifle shooters at one meeting lobbying for bow hunting seasons. We have been fighting for more bow season's for years, and now others feel this an easy way to extend their rifle season. I am not saying you are one of these fellows, but I am wondering why you choose this instead of a real bow. These "advances in technology" will soon ruin bow seasons for all of us. I can agree with handicapped persons hunting with a crossrifle but only in the GOS. One way to stop the buying of crossrifles two days before opening day is make bowhunter education mandatory. At least then we would have the comfort of knowing these newbies have a small idea of what they are dealing with.

Oh come on now, tell us how you really feel.... ;)


A crossbow is a 'real bow', as far as I'm concerned, and as far as the BC government is concerned (is this a new thing? I was under the impression it had been this way for many years). I never saw where there was a requirement for me to join a club and lobby my government before I was somehow morally entitled to hunt in a legally open season using legally acceptable equipment.


Here are some things I can tell you from experience about a crossbow:

It doesn't shoot an arrow any farther or faster than a u-pull it.
It doesn't shoot an arrow any more accurately than a u-pull it.
It is no more effective at killing an animal than a u-pull-it.
It is not any easier to learn to shoot than a tuned compound bow with good sights on it.
It is a bow on the end of a stick with a trigger on it. Hence the name crossbow, as it is called in any country that speaks english.


I would 100% support requiring some sort of bowhunter training for any bow hunter - crossbow or otherwise. It would get at the roots of a real problem, which is people who don't know their equipment out in the bush.


Just for the record - I only personally know 3 crossbow hunters besides myself. But every one of them have put in many hours of practice getting very handy with their equipment, and every one of them is as ethical and decent a hunter as you'd ever want to know. Your attitude is an insult to them, and to me. But I won't hold it against ya. 8-)

ratherbefishin
10-12-2005, 06:47 PM
Look at it from this point of view-I shoot a bow-but have missed a few deer[fortionately they were clean misses]and if I wanted to hunt in the archery season,I'd probably use a crossbow-simply because of their accuracy.No-I'm no ''die hard'' archery hunter, and an arguement could be made I should be prepared to put in the time practicing, but the fact is-I'm not thatdedicated, but at the same time,I won't use a weapon that I'm not proficient with-I don't mind killing and animal-but I sure hate wounding one

islandhunter
10-12-2005, 06:53 PM
everyones entitled to the same quota of deer every year, wether it be from bow, crossbow or fifle. how you get it's your choice. brotherJ you sure sparked a heated debate!

sealevel
10-12-2005, 07:08 PM
There is nothing wrong with a good heated debait . But brotherjack an archery training course did you take a bad fall on your head laitly thats all we need is to take another course .

brotherjack
10-12-2005, 07:25 PM
brotherJ you sure sparked a heated debate!

No kidding.... and I was just trying to share with everyone a little piece of engineering I thought was cool... oh well. I got pretty thick skin. :mrgreen:

brotherjack
10-12-2005, 07:28 PM
But brotherjack an archery training course did you take a bad fall on your head laitly thats all we need is to take another course.

I actually don't mind the whole course and/or challenge the test thing at all. I had to do it for the CORE, and firearms - the idea being keeping uneducated louts with guns out of the bush - why not for bow and crossbow on the same principal?

(uh-oh, the heated debate opens on another front... hehehe)...

oldtimer
10-12-2005, 08:08 PM
Brother Jack. First off I have nothing against crossbows, I would love to see more come out for all the 3D shoots we have and they can shoot in the archery season as far as I am concerned. HOWEVER !!! there are some major differences between a crossbow and a compound bow
1. You can't pre-load a compound bow !!
2. Every compound bow I have ever seen has to be custom fit and tuned to the individual archer. I am 6'6" tall with a 31 1/2 " draw length. I know someone who is 5' 11" could not shoot my bow or me his but we could both go to an archery shop and buy the same crossbow and be shooting that day. We wouldn't have to wait for all the varying components to be tuned over the course of a lot of arrows being shot.

Once again I have nothing against crossbows.
Good hunting Mike

J_T
10-13-2005, 08:01 AM
I think that all bow hunting shoudl be done with a home made longbow.

No compounds allowed.

COmpounds make it unfair, as it is easier to kill with a compound than a longbow.;)
Sweet :smile:

Fred
10-13-2005, 08:20 AM
Oldtimer, I intend to experament some with that new Bernett that I got from BCHunter. I will start with eliminating that crumby 22 scope and try making my own bolts since I have lots of arrows from my regular Bow. Fred

Ronforca
10-13-2005, 08:23 AM
Good on you Brother Jack.I just purchased a crossbow yesterday.Having a bit of
trouble stringing it.Seems to be a bit harder than my compound.I should be well enough trained by next fall to use it.:)

willyqbc
10-13-2005, 08:29 AM
i've said it before and I'll dsay it again...this is why I hate crossbows!! Its nothing against the weapon in particular, its the division in our ranks that is caused as soon as anyone even mentions a crossbow. As far as I'm concerned if its legal then it legal....PERIOD. As stated earlier....a slob is a slob and that has nothing to do with the weapon, if X-bows didn't exist all those same people would have been buying compounds to get in on the new seasons.

Its pretty easy to see why we are doomed to lose to the anti's in the end. They ALWAYS present a united front.....ALWAYS. With us, the rifle guys are fighting with the archers, the coumpounders fight with the x-bowers, we all fight with the guides.....hunters as a group are weak becasue of all the infighting, we are all after our own interest rather than the general good of all. If we don't start supporting one another there will soon be nothing to support.

Chris

J_T
10-13-2005, 10:31 AM
Chris,

While I generally agree with your statement above. That the infighting doesn't do us any good. If you will note while BrotherJack did make some suggestive references to "slob type" (my words, not his) hunters, that wasn't the essence of this discussion. Yes, a slob hunter or an unethical hunter/person, is exactly that. It doesn't matter what they drive, or what weapon they choose. I think we all agree with that.

I don't feel that this issue as discussed here was about slob hunters, nor was it our intention that this was a discussion to divide the ranks. Rather, from my perspective, this is a discussion to protect and preserve our hunting opportunity.

If through the efforts of the TBBC and UBBC we work tirelessly (yes Gatehouse, I am one of the 5% along with Onesock doing 95% of the work) to acquire increased "hunting" opportunity and we base that development on certain criteria (IE effective range of a bow, and numbers of bowhunters) and then after the season is implemented there is an increase in technology that shifts the anticipated results (IE: increased huntes + improved technology = increased harvests) then this has a negative impact on what we worked so hard to achieve. Everything must be kept in balance.

I'm all for more people hunting. Absolutely. I'm all for more people going to 3D's and having fun too. 3D's do not provide a hunting type scenario, but they do allow us to become more proficient and confident with our weapon of choice.

If we are going to promote new hunting opportunities in BC and the operative word being oportunity (bow, rifle, spear), then we need to respect the effective range of certain weapons. The effective range of a traditional bow and a crossbow are very different. The ability to become proficient with a traditional bow is a question of a "lifestyle" not a technological purchase.

Contrary to what BrotherJack has stated, the learning curve and confidence curve with a crossbow is much shorter than with either a compound or trad bow.

The risk to increased harvests with an increase in crossbow use in an archery only season is very real.

Presently, crossbows are considered archery tackle by regulation and I support that. I still maintain that picture at the lead of this post looks a whole lot more like a rifle.

With major success in the implementation of archery only seasons coming now (IE Region 4), what we need to monitor and be cognizant of, are hunter trends. (IE those studies in the states that found in the third year such an increase in crossover users (rifle to crossbow) that it placed an unacceptable harvest rate on wildlife.) If this happens in BC, our archery only seasons will be short lived.

Respectfully,

JT

BCHunter
10-13-2005, 05:15 PM
thats different..

Gateholio
10-13-2005, 10:19 PM
.





Respectfully,

JT[/QUOTE]


While I generally agree with your statement above. That the infighting doesn't do us any good. If you will note while BrotherJack did make some suggestive references to "slob type" (my words, not his) hunters, that wasn't the essence of this discussion. Yes, a slob hunter or an unethical hunter/person, is exactly that. It doesn't matter what they drive, or what weapon they choose. I think we all agree with that.


Think about that...Rifle and scope and shotgun purchases peak prior to hunting season, as well as crossbows.

The guy that buys a rifle just prior to hutning seasn doesn't do any mor epractice with it than the tguy that buys the crossbow.. It's not the weapon, it's the person. And we cannot legislate common sense...


If through the efforts of the TBBC and UBBC we work tirelessly (yes Gatehouse, I am one of the 5% along with Onesock doing 95% of the work)

Well, I kinda figured that...:grin:


to acquire increased "hunting" opportunity and we base that development on certain criteria (IE effective range of a bow, and numbers of bowhunters) and then after the season is implemented there is an increase in technology that shifts the anticipated results (IE: increased huntes + improved technology = increased harvests) then this has a negative impact on what we worked so hard to achieve

That happens in EVERYTHING, unless the criteria is spelled out correctly in the first place. FOr instance, in areas with muzzleloaders, there are now guys that use inline muzzleloaders, pellets and sabots and scopes, rather than a iron sight and poured powder and a cap for ignition. Personally, when ever someone says "we need a muzzloader season" I say fine- If youare using traditonal ball and powder and an iron sight. Of course, others will say "let
s kil the animal as humanely as possible, so we should use sabot bullets etc."

It's tough, but if a "special season" is the goal, then the perameters need to be staked out in the first place.


The effective range of a traditional bow and a crossbow are very different. The ability to become proficient with a traditional bow is a question of a "lifestyle" not a technological purchase.

Okay, a traditonal long bow and a modern crossbow are apples and orangs when it comes to accurate range. That's easy. But a modern crossbow and a modern compound bow have abouthte same ranges. Unless you want to exclude compound bows, then this argument doens't hold water.


Contrary to what BrotherJack has stated, the learning curve and confidence curve with a crossbow is much shorter than with either a compound or trad bow.

I'l agree with this. I was "decent" with a crossbow after 3 practice shots this spring, and went on to kill some wild boars. However, since the boars never stopped moving, leading tghem was an issue, and you can't understand how to lead a runnign animal if you try to treat your crossbow like a rifle. Doesn't work. Same for distance...

Still, with a little practice (under a month) you can learn to shoot a compound bow well enough to kill deer at moderate ranges, as long as the deer isn't movign really fast.


The risk to increased harvests with an increase in crossbow use in an archery only season is very real

I don't buy this. You still have to get as close to an animal as if you were using a compound. Not every hunter can do this, especially if they are used to hutnign with a rifle, and not a bow.

But even if they all could, the harvest from bows and crossbows is miniscule compared tot he rifle harvest. I don't think that the bowhunt seriously impacts the game populations, unless every rifle hunter was to take up crossbows. And they won't, because most hunters only manage a week or two of hunting, and they want to maximize thier chances, so they pick a rifle and go in Oct or November.


With major success in the implementation of archery only seasons coming now (IE Region 4), what we need to monitor and be cognizant of, are hunter trends. (IE those studies in the states that found in the third year such an increase in crossover users (rifle to crossbow) that it placed an unacceptable harvest rate on wildlife.) If this happens in BC, our archery only seasons will be short lived.

Archery season has been with us for quite a few years. You have been allowed to use a crossbow the whole time.

Archery only season is about 10 days in the early part of the season.

I think your fear of overharvest is unfounded. Most hunters dont' even get out in early Sept. See above.:grin:


Presently, crossbows are considered archery tackle by regulation and I support that. I still maintain that picture at the lead of this post looks a whole lot more like a rifle.

Well, it is not.

It shoots an arrow, and it goes alot slower than the 2800fps of a 30-06. It's range isn't 400 acurate yards, it is 40 yards..Once the arrow is sent on it's way, there is no difference in what the arrow does when compared to a compound bow.:p

Ronforca
10-14-2005, 07:03 AM
Liking to get out into the woods and hunt a lot I do or will be doing it all.I am
retired so have lots of time.To me a crossbow in just another hunting tool to
master.I have several firearms,a compound and now a cross bow.I think that the problem is not killing too many animals with a Crossbow but just the opposite.
there are not anough of us out there to crop the game.Here in the Okanagan we
have too many Deer.The problem is that not enough people are out there no matter what they are using.Dont want to start a war here but I can walk in the woods for a week and not see another hunter but have to be careful walking on the road because that is where most of the hunters are.No problem with that as
a lot of people cant still hunt due to one thing or another but I like my walking and it is kind of nice to have the woods to myself.
So no matter what you use and how many Deer there are out there they are seldom easy to shoot.Especially with a Bow or Crossbow.
Please no ofense to the road hunters.It is also hunting and whatever you like
is your own choice.
I am going to learn to use my Cross Bow and by next year should be good
enough with it to carry it in the woods.:)

islandhunter
10-14-2005, 10:50 PM
no matter how you look at it, bow hunting takes alot of skill. the majority of bowhunters arent even going to bag one with a bow this year, wether it be with a bow or crossbow. if you think the crossbows are going to have even the slightest impact on deer populations,you got it wrong.dont forget hunters are conservationists!

Walksalot
10-16-2005, 05:52 AM
How many compound or traditional bowhunters would make the change to a crossbow if a debilitating injury prevented them from drawing back a bow?;-)
I am willing to venture to say just about 100%.
If proficiency testing were manditory I wonder how many traditional archers would challange the test with traditional tackle.;-)

Onesock
10-16-2005, 09:50 AM
Walksalot: Proficiency testing? Good question. I wonder how many crossrifle hunters have
taken the International Bowhunter Education Course. I wonder how many Xbow shooters know what is the only place to aim on an animal with a bow. I wonder if Xbow shooters know how long to wait after a shoot is taken before taking up the animals trail. I wonder how Xbow shooters know how to blood trail an animal or even what to look for after an animal is hit. Proficiency testing? There is alot more to bowhunting than shooing bull's eye's on a target face. Most of the posts on this form have missed the point completely. I am saying alot of the people shooting Xbows are uneducated in their use because of purchases made a few days before hunting season opens and they know nothing of the weapon they are using or how it kills. I have no problem with a handicapped person or any other person shooting a Xbow as long as they know their weapon, know what they are doing in the field and practice with it for more than a few days before the season. As for traditional bowhunters, I would put the ones I know up against anyone.

Onesock
10-16-2005, 10:05 AM
Gatehouse:
1) Crossbows require more practise rifles.
2) It tkaes alot of work to aquire new seasons, what have you done?
3)There used to be a muzzle loader season for moose up north but with the advent of inline black powder guns they have dissappeared. Technology.
4)A modern compound bow has to be drawn within sight of the animal.
5)Harvest was taken into consideration when bow seasons were started. If all the crossbow shooters had to shoot compounds you would loose 90% of crossbow
shooters. Smaller harvest.
6) Most provinces in Canada and states to the south of us don't allow Xbows in archery season.
The main reason people hunt with xguns is that they are simple to use and very little practise is required. How long have you been hunting with one?

ruger#1
10-16-2005, 10:39 AM
sounds like people dictating to other people. if you dont like what other people are useing, then why dont you just leave it alone, sounds like PETA they dont like hunters. i have a compond bow, good for me i do practice a lot with it, but im not going to bitch and wine about the traditional hunters as i see this bitching and whining makeing this web site look bad. one of my freinds was over the other day, and he had some very negative coments about this thread, and he wants to get into hunting and hunting with a bow. i think he is going to think about it. if people keep turning away because of all the in fighting, its because of people to ignorant to let things go. and us as hunters,{ no matter what we hunt with} are going to loose. thanks for reading this, and i hope things change. ps helping people out is alot better then turning them away. MARK

Ken the Kanuck
10-16-2005, 03:00 PM
Brotherjack: I would say that 99% of all crossrifle hunters are opportunist rifle hunters taking advantage of the hard work of real bowhunters. I have not seen any crossrifle shooters at one meeting lobbying for bow hunting seasons. We have been fighting for more bow season's for years, and now others feel this an easy way to extend their rifle season. I am not saying you are one of these fellows, but I am wondering why you choose this instead of a real bow. These "advances in technology" will soon ruin bow seasons for all of us. I can agree with handicapped persons hunting with a crossrifle but only in the GOS. One way to stop the buying of crossrifles two days before opening day is make bowhunter education mandatory. At least then we would have the comfort of knowing these newbies have a small idea of what they are dealing with.

If I were a crossbow hunter I wouldn't be going to any meeting where I would be likely to run into someone with your attitude. Hell I have never shot a crossbow and after reading your post you make me want to go out and buy one. Nice to hear you think so much of yourself and so little of others.

KTK

islandhunter
10-16-2005, 04:29 PM
onesock, your comments are b.s.! ive shot competitive archery for 6 years with my compound bow and been a bow hunter for longer.i find now all i do is hunt with my bow and feel that a crossbow is a better tool for this. im not an ignorant hunter and know exactly where to shoot the animal and what to do after that. there is no difference between the ethics of crossbow hunters and trad. bowhunters! why would you think such a thing?makes no sense.

Walksalot
10-16-2005, 04:30 PM
Walksalot: Proficiency testing? Good question. I wonder how many crossrifle hunters have
taken the International Bowhunter Education Course. I wonder how many Xbow shooters know what is the only place to aim on an animal with a bow. I wonder if Xbow shooters know how long to wait after a shoot is taken before taking up the animals trail. I wonder how Xbow shooters know how to blood trail an animal or even what to look for after an animal is hit. Proficiency testing? There is alot more to bowhunting than shooing bull's eye's on a target face. Most of the posts on this form have missed the point completely. I am saying alot of the people shooting Xbows are uneducated in their use because of purchases made a few days before hunting season opens and they know nothing of the weapon they are using or how it kills. I have no problem with a handicapped person or any other person shooting a Xbow as long as they know their weapon, know what they are doing in the field and practice with it for more than a few days before the season. As for traditional bowhunters, I would put the ones I know up against anyone.

I am a compound shooter and except for a year of trying traditional I will stay a compound shooter.
I have never even held a crossbow but you know you have started me thinking of buying one. This holyier than thou bullshit has got to stop. Just walk around the 3D course and see these traditional guys who couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a handfull of wheat. The most humane thing they could do for the animals is to go and buy a crossbow. Traditional guys with their ideas of simplistic weapons and no idea of how long it takes to get proficient at shooting with fingers leave alone instinctive shooting and no concept of the commitment involed in being a good instinctive shooter. We had a hunter round at a 3D shoot we put on with deductions for an arrow out of the kill zone I have never heard so many sorry ass excuses as to why these traditional guys wouldn't participate in the round. A small few did , mind you, but these guys were shooters not these holyier than thou archers.

ratherbefishin
10-16-2005, 04:41 PM
the moment you decide what is ''traditional'' or ''modern'' or even what requires more skill to achieve proficiency, you immediately open the door to some very nebulous arguements.As long as ''fair case'' ethics apply I see little validity to the arguement.One could use the same arguement that single shot black powder open sighted rifles are somehow superior to repeating rifles with scopes[and some people would heartily endorse that theory].I happen to hunt with both
To me it the weapon of choice is strictly individual based on a number of factors.For me,I would use a crossbow simply because I think I would be more likely to make a humane kill than if using my compound.Shot placement,shooting within ones personal range ,and following up a shot remain the same

Ronforca
10-16-2005, 04:49 PM
Come on you guys.Get off the pot.This post srarted out with Brotherjack showing a picture of a different style of cross bow and nothing else.Get over it.You have changed the Thread so bad that it is nothing at all like it was intended.Get on with your lives or start another thread about the ethics of Crossbow hunting.You are acting like a bunch of little kids.There,someone had to say it.:evil:

ruger#1
10-16-2005, 04:50 PM
well thanks sockless, now my freind is turned away from bow hunting, well i think ill have a talk to him tomorrow. and try to change his mind. but if he wont id like to thank you in advance . and i am glad to see im not the only one that thinks this way! i think it is time to change attitudes, and help each other out, i have hunted with people that are so into themselves, that they think they are always right, notice ive said hunted!

Walksalot
10-16-2005, 05:39 PM
Come on you guys.Get off the pot.This post srarted out with Brotherjack showing a picture of a different style of cross bow and nothing else.Get over it.You have changed the Thread so bad that it is nothing at all like it was intended.Get on with your lives or start another thread about the ethics of Crossbow hunting.You are acting like a bunch of little kids.There,someone had to say it.:evil:

I think these types of discussions are positive and productive.
I too was once of the opinion that I would rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother shooting a crossbow but I have changed my point of view.
Why? Because someone pointed out the fact that we are all archers no matter the weapon of choice and reflecting upon the comment I realized that person was right and it is time to stick together rather than this bickering back and forth.
Remember, when you point a finger at someone there are always three fingers pointing back at you.

greybark
10-16-2005, 07:11 PM
8) First of all , I regret the direction this thread has taken , But mayby it is time to bring the crossbow debate into the open . We do diservice to both sides of this debate when someone refers to crossbows as crossguns. They are crossbows and are legal in 7 states and three provinces (I believe) and we should call them crossbows.

When a student of SFU was murdered several years ago with a bolt from a crossbow a city type reporter purchased a crossbow and as an experiment he took but 90 min to sight in and shoot very respecable groups. With due respect Brother Jack it takes little time to master a crossbow and on numerous occasions (on 3-d courses , practice range and in the hunting field) I have seen crossbow shooters who practiced once or twice a year do 8in groups at 60yds.What most Modern and Traditional bowhunters fear is that harvest increases as result of crossbows will jeopardize the archery seasons that we have lobbyed and fought for so many years. If harvest rates of WT in reg 8 are tripled I feel the archery season will be shortened and bag limits reduced. I would be angry to the extreme because a group of people who chose not practice or commit to any club conservation projects and rely on the easy use of crossbows were resposible for taking away what I enjoyed for over 25 years.
Walksalot , In regards to your repeated statments in regards to manitory proffiency tests for Traditional bowhunters I again point out that each of us have our individual "lethal " distance . How you would test on that premice is troublesome .Any poor Traditional archer I have seen has ethicly reverted to a Compound bow or rifle when hunting . Heck a friend of mine is one of the best makers of trad bows in the N America for over 25 years uses a compound when hunting , With all due respect your calls for manitory testing are misguided to say the least.
;-) I feel a crossbow hunter should refer to himself as a crossbow hunter and not a bowhunter , There is a difference .

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

Walksalot
10-16-2005, 07:27 PM
Walksalot , In regards to your repeated statments in regards to manitory proffiency tests for Traditional bowhunters I again point out that each of us have our individual "lethal " distance . How you would test on that premice is troublesome .Any poor Traditional archer I have seen has ethicly reverted to a Compound bow or rifle when hunting . Heck a friend of mine is one of the best makers of trad bows in the N America for over 25 years uses a compound when hunting , With all due respect your calls for manitory testing are misguided to say the least.
Greybark, when I mention proficiency testing I am referring to all forms of archery.

islandhunter
10-16-2005, 07:49 PM
i can understand if you're proud to be a traditional or compound bow hunter. but that doesnt mean people have to change what they refer themselves as. a crossbow shoots an arrow that was charged with human strength(not gunpowder), and has a range about the same as a regular compound bow. yes it takes more skill to shoot a regular bow accuratley. but theyre both still bows. should we refer to ourselves as "pse nova hunters" or "hoyt recurve hunters"? i dont think so. so what happens if i hunt with both of my bows. must i put a nametag on that says "shoots 2 kinds of bows". i dont like being "lessened" by fellow hunters,i think its a step in the wrong direction.

greybark
10-16-2005, 08:33 PM
;-) A good post Islandhunter, But it would easy to start a hunting story with "When I was crossbow hunting or I had my Compound with me" . Both stories should be respected and listened to.

:mrgreen: I maybe the only one here who has shot a 3-d course and shared their hunting camp with a crossbow hunter and so may be a tiny little bit biased.

;-) One has to to a bit of fibre and enthusiasm to swing over to bowhunting . If someone elses views are enough to not try bowhunting then maybe it is best they do something they can really emerse themselvs in.

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

greybark
10-16-2005, 08:40 PM
;) Hey Islandhunter , A bit of a mix it up question for you - What percentage of new crossbows have Draw Aids on or with them ? I am aware or draw rope aids ,cocking lever aids and cranking aids that may be manually cranked or an Electric Drill used.

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

greybark
10-16-2005, 08:46 PM
well thanks sockless, now my freind is turned away from bow hunting, well i think ill have a talk to him tomorrow. and try to change his mind. but if he wont id like to thank you in advance . and i am glad to see im not the only one that thinks this way! i think it is time to change attitudes, and help each other out, i have hunted with people that are so into themselves, that they think they are always right, notice ive said hunted!
:-( Hey Ruger 1 , Its hard to help those out who threaten something I have enjoyed for over 25 years. I hope you can understand Onesocks and my views .

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

islandhunter
10-16-2005, 08:47 PM
still human strenghth. still an arrow. electric drll? you got me there. i always forget mine when i go in the woods.

islandhunter
10-16-2005, 08:49 PM
p.s. crossbow hunters arent threatening bow seasons. ive never heard anything like that, except on this thread.

Walksalot
10-17-2005, 06:20 AM
Greybark wrote:
With all due respect your calls for manitory testing are misguided to say the least.

Greybark, when I mention proficiency testing I direct it toward these bowhunters who have this holyier than thou attitude. Onesock referred to xbow hunters as uneducated well I am just stating that when a many bowhunters pick up a traditional bow they don't have a clue the commitment required to be a compitent traditional archer so lets not start pointing ugly fingers and lets band together and support each other.
I am told that in Quebec, for archers, there is manditory proficiency testing and most traditional shooters use compounds to challange the test.

Ken the Kanuck
10-17-2005, 07:00 AM
Walksalot is right all hunters, shooters, fishermen and outdoorsmen have to band together. Our goals are common, the enjoyment and preservation of the outdoors and it's wildlife. The people most interested in preserving and enhancing our land are those who utilize it. Onesock's comments were negative and destructive and he deserved to have his pee pee slapped. There certainly is nothing wrong with an intelligent debate where proponents of each side express the reasoning which they feel makes their point of view the correct one, but name calling and belittling those who feel differently from the way you do has no value.

Where do you buy those crossy things any way?

KTK

Fred
10-17-2005, 08:23 AM
I got one I haven't fallen in love with yet! :roll: Fred

brotherjack
10-17-2005, 08:38 AM
I really really hate to post anything else to this thread - if I had a delete button to make it all go away, I would use it. This all started becuase I wanted to share with ya'll something I thought was cool - this was certainly not at all what I had in mind.

But, that said - I want to set the record straight on my comments regarding the ease of crossbow vs compound bow. If you go back and look, here is what I said (referring to crossbows)



It is not any easier to learn to shoot than a tuned compound bow with good sights on it.

I said that, based on my own experience shooting a friend of mine's compound bow. He had his bow nicely tuned and shooting well before I ever touched it, for sure. However, all it took for me to shoot nice tight groups at 20 yards (the only distance I've tried) was for me to line up the peep and the pin and squeze the trigger on the release. From shot 1, I found it easy to keep them within that pie-plate sized killzone, and by the 5'th or 6'th I could plant em pretty well right where I wanted. I do have some background as a traditional (recurve) bow shooter, so maybe the fact that I knew a few things about what I was trying to do helped - but the fact remains, I just picked it up and could shoot pretty accurately with it - actually with less effort than it took to get handy with my crossbow.

I freely admit, that I expect if I just bought a brand new compound bow - untuned and unsighted in - my experience would have been different.

Also, speaking of tuning and getting handy with my crossbow - it took me a whole heck of a lot longer than 90 minutes before I could consistently plant arrows in the bullseye with it from any yardage I cared to try.

Anyway - I vote we let this thread die; I don't see any point to everyone getting all worked up about their respective views on a topic that's really pretty pointless as long as crossbows are legal in this province.

Thanks.

Thunderstix
10-17-2005, 08:41 AM
I personally think there should be a Crossbow Only Season.

Thunderstix
10-17-2005, 08:42 AM
Come on now! You know I was not serious!:mrgreen:
I think Jack is right saying let this one die!

ratherbefishin
10-18-2005, 07:09 AM
I suggest an ''antique weapons ''season

sealevel
10-18-2005, 07:30 AM
why do we have to let it die . do we all have to think the same debate is good as long as it dose not get personal. my personal opionin has a present day crossbow is a hinderance compared to a compound. And willyq is wright we have to stick together and fight for hunting rights or we will lose.

Gateholio
10-21-2005, 01:18 AM
[
QUOTE]


1) Crossbows require more practise rifles.

This makes no sense???


2) It tkaes alot of work to aquire new seasons, what have you done?

Lots of stuff to bring new hunters/shooters intot he sport. (In case you haven't noticed, hunter numbers are declining it makes no sense to alienate someone who may want to expand on his regular horizons.)

As far as new seasons, nothign, I'm happy with them.I'm not sure if this is even relevent, though...


3)There used to be a muzzle loader season for moose up north but with the advent of inline black powder guns they have dissappeared. Technology

Maybe someone shoudl have uysed thier head and mae sure that it was only "traditional" muzzloaders, if in fact that was the goal of the ML season.


4)A modern compound bow has to be drawn within sight of the animal.

Whoopee!! So archery hutnign is hard!! We already knew that.You still have to get close with a crossbow, which is probably the hardest part.



5)Harvest was taken into consideration when bow seasons were started. If all the crossbow shooters had to shoot compounds you would loose 90% of crossbow
shooters. Smaller harvest.

DO you have actual stats that prove that crossbow shooters skew the harvest rates? I'd like to see them.

The 10 day Sept bow season is miniscule compared to the gun seasons. If anyone was concerned abotu overharvest, the bow season (including crossbows) wouldn't be the first place to look...


6) Most provinces in Canada and states to the south of us don't allow Xbows in archery season.

So what???

Just becasue "everyone else" is doing it doesn't make it rigth to do. It certainly doean't make it right for us to compare our 10 day bow seaosn/ 90 day rifle season with a US 30 day bow season/10 day rifle season.


The main reason people hunt with xguns is that they are simple to use and very little practise is required. How long have you been hunting with one?[/

Again, so what??

Hutner numbers are DECLINING. Placign additoional restrictions on hunters isn't going to help that. What's wrong with 'simple to use?" You still have to get 40 yards form a deer...

I don't own any sort of bow right now. My first deer was taken with a longbow I bought at a garage sale, with a string I made myself, and iron (file sharpened- not razor) broadheads.

I killed some wild Russian boar in Ontario this year with a crossbow, though.

I am a gun guy, I like handloadign and shooting. Maybe I'll get a bow someday, but I'm not that interested...

J_T
10-21-2005, 11:40 AM
Gatehouse,

And in my own attempt to maintain civility in all discussions, I was raised a rifle hunter and have enjoyed my share of harvests with rifle and shotgun.

My personal preference now (for 11 years now) is the peace and tranquility offered by the bow.

I continue to hunt along side those carrying a rifle, we have worked out arrangements on stalking animals. (I get the first attempt, while they wait from a distance) and it works fine. We move through the bush similarly and we think alike, we just don't take our animals the same.

I have a lot of respect for hunters, that are ethical and moral. It matters less their choice of weapon, but who they are as people.

My involvement in this discussion was not an attempt at creating dissension within the hunting fraternity. I don't think it's bad to have good discussion, but keep it in perspective.

JT

Ken the Kanuck
10-21-2005, 05:45 PM
Maybe we should introduce some new hunting seasons ? Say a 10 yard season, a 30 yard season and a 50 yard season. During these seasons you would have to tie a string onto what ever projectile you shoot ( crossbow bolt, arrow or bullet ) mind you it would introduce a whole new aspect to reloading as the cartridges would have to be very long to hold the coiled up string.

KTK

J_T
10-22-2005, 07:36 AM
KTK

Maybe we should introduce some new hunting seasons ? Say a 10 yard season, a 30 yard season and a 50 yard season. During these seasons you would have to tie a string onto what ever projectile you shoot ( crossbow bolt, arrow or bullet ) mind you it would introduce a whole new aspect to reloading as the cartridges would have to be very long to hold the coiled up string.


It would make game retrieval simple. Just hang on and reel them in.:)

Fred
10-22-2005, 08:49 AM
It has been a few weeks since I posted this, so for the new guys and gals I give you, http://users3.ev1.net/~jtclay/fishin.htm . Fred

tmarschall
10-22-2005, 10:12 AM
Thanks Fred... that was roflmao!!!!

Ronforca
10-22-2005, 12:30 PM
What is the problem anyway.Is it that the crossbows are going to shoot all of the Deer and not leave anything for the regular bow hunters?We have so many deer around here that several are getting killed on the highway every night.We
could sure stand to have a few more cropped.Yesterday afternoon between Oliver and Pentiction I counted 12 Deer grazing within sight of the highway.With
so few hunters around we could do to have a few more cropped.The season is very long but the Whitetail especially are multiplying like crazy.
If any of you doubt my word I can take you for a drive any evening and show you probably over a hundred deer from highway # 3 between Osoyoos and Rock Creek.These will be Mulies.

So why dont we all just do our own thing as long as we obey the law .As I have lots of time to hunt I use a rifle,shotgun,compound bow and I will be using a cross bow as soon as I figure that I am good enough with it.
So lets live and let live.The crossbow hunters are not going to shoot all of the
deer.:|

J_T
10-23-2005, 08:34 AM
Someone had asked for some stats on the use of crossbows. I have an excerpt from a study carried out in Ohio. The question is, what impact do crossbows have on an archery season?

The answer to this question can be found in the state of Ohio where crossbows were made legal for use during the entire archery-only hunting season in the early 1980's. The harvest trend is outlined below (statistics from Ohio DNR publication #166):
Yearly Harvest by Weapon Type

Weapon 1982 1985 1988 1991 1993Hand-Held Bow 3782 3339 5322 7708 10,155Crossbow 446 1689 4716 9401 13,055The Ohio statistics clearly show that bowhunters have become a minority in their own hunting season. The gap worsens with each hunting season.



This is one of the basis for my concern that when we lobby successfully for an archery only season, it is based on current trends in archery use and projected harvest levels.

Again, I am not saying crossbows are not archery tackle. The regulation accepts them and therefore so do I. I'm just expressing a caution.


The Profesional Bowhunters Society in the US has taken a position against the use of crossbows in archery seasons. A study of the proficiency of the crossbow as compared to the modern compound is carried out on this site.

For the full story go to. http://www.bowsite.com/pbs/crossbow.html

J_T
10-23-2005, 08:38 AM
I see the stats didn't post very well. Let me try again.

Weapon 1982 1985 1988 1991 1993
Hand Held Bow 3782 3339 5322 7708 10,155
Crossbow 446 1689 4716 9401 13,055

brotherjack
10-23-2005, 11:51 AM
I see the stats didn't post very well. Let me try again.

Weapon 1982 1985 1988 1991 1993
Hand Held Bow 3782 3339 5322 7708 10,155
Crossbow 446 1689 4716 9401 13,055

Them stat's don't look to me like anyone's getting shortchanged of hunting opportunities - bow or crossbow hunter.

Onesock
10-23-2005, 12:22 PM
Brotherjack: You are missing the point JT was trying to make. I give up trying to talk reason to some people.

brotherjack
10-23-2005, 02:01 PM
But if the harvest stats are going up several hundred percent in both camps, that looks to me like the quality of the hunting there is improving many-fold. There are MORE deer each year than the years before, not less. More hunters to boot (in a day and age when there are decreasing hunter numbers in most areas and categories). All of that sounds good to me, not bad.

And you're right onesock, I do miss the point, just as you miss the point on the other side of the arguement: that bowhunting is about being skilled at getting within as few a yards as possible from an approximately broadside, relaxed, unaware, legal animal, and putting an arrow through it - not about what tackle you use to launch that arrow. Any tackle that encourages more people to get out and learn these skills enriches the bowhunting community in the long run, even if in the short run you get a large influx of newcomers who lack a lot of the knowledge you've gained in your years of experience.

From what I've read, in most places in north america, there are FEWER hunters all the time rather than more - so anything we can do to get more people doing what we do and love increases our numbers, which translates into that much longer before there's so few of us that the anti-hunting nazi's get hunting outlawed alltogether. This is especially relevant to bowhunters, because we're an easy target for the nazi's because of our fewer numbers, and because it's easier to convince an uneducated politician that a rifle makes quick work of a critter, while an arrow cuts it up and leaves it to bleed to death and is therefore more cruel and blah blah blah...

Anyway, I know, I said I'd shut up, and I didn't.... sorry about that...

:)

J_T
10-23-2005, 03:15 PM
BrotherJack,

I'm not sure where to start. I really don't want my responses to always be long winded. Nor is it my intention to be divissive.

Please keep in mind, everything: hunting seasons, hunter numbers, food supply, societal versus wildlife conflict (IE too many deer in a given area, or too many elk for a rancher) and harvest rates must be kept in balance.

We all support, more hunting opportunity. We all support an increase in hunter numbers. We want to hunt, and we want to share the experience with those around us.

The season that was established in Ohio, was created as a management tool, to manage an increase in the deer population. In your response you do make an assumption that there is an increase in hunter numbers as well as harvests and this translates into an obvious increase in deer populations. This is not the case. In Ohio, the increase to 13,000 harvested by crossbow, placed this wildlife population and season in some jeopardy.

Quite frankly, we may never see sizable increases in bowhunter numbers here in BC (we simply don't have the population base that the USA does), and my comments may be becoming stretched, however the concerns are the same.

When we lobby the government for a season, we make estimations about the number of animals we expect to see harvested - in a given proposal.

The study in Ohio, and more close to home I can also include the late season archery deer hunt in the Okanagan. What we have is an established population of hunters using archery as a weapon. With the introduction of a new season (IE any elk archery in the East Kootenay) what we see quickly, is that additional hunters (from the rifle hunting segment of the hunter community) gravitate to the crossbow and this results (in the Ohio case) in the number of harvests by crossbow inceasing from 446 in the first year, to 13,000 after 10 years. This increase in hunters into the archery season, and increase in harvests was not part of the wildlife management plan.

The season could accept 10,000 harvested, or even 15,000, but combine the success of an increase in crossbow use, the result is an unacceptable harvest in a season. The result is a loss of season.

Creating a season, is based on: politics, social acceptance, economics, population dynamics (vulnerability, food source, structure [IE age class]) safey, hunter recruitment and likely a few other things that escape me right now.

This really isn't any different that the heirarchy and natural population trends we see in all of nature. Rabbit and grouse populations are up so coyote populations follow an increase a couple of years later, rabbit an grouse drop off, and so do the coyote populations.

As humans, we think we can keep everything in harmony and balance. We create a new archery season, because we can justify the need, the economics and we can satisfy the social and safety needs. As opportunity increases, so do hunte numbers, when hunter numbers increase, a number of intangibles increase. IE, harvest increases, now we might experience an increase in hunter land owner conflict because there are more hunters looking for places to hunt, and this has to be addressed.

Enough for now.

JT

ruger#1
10-23-2005, 03:45 PM
this thread has already turned people away from bow hunting, you guys should realy get into politics the federal liberals sure could use you, they want an end to hunting, and with new hunters reading all this crap; you traditional hunters o sorry { bow} are pushing them away. you should realy be working for the hunting comunity , with your one sided bs, its time to stick together and fight for the cause of hunting. i agree with brother jack this thread should be closed, it sounds like the natives against the non natives what a joke.yous stats dont mean a thing when there are about 30 million people in canada, and the state of california has over 30 million. its like compareing our crime rate against the american crime rate, try adding a little bit better not all of us have a sock pulled over our head!!!!!!

J_T
10-24-2005, 09:02 AM
Quite frankly Ruger, although this thread was sidetracked a couple of times it was a very good discussion.

I would suggest you didn't take time to read most of what was posted. Rather you allowed yourself to be triggered by a few comments and neglected to see the detail of the discussion.

I don't think the key proponents to this discussion where in any way disrespectful or divissive with each other.

Merely a healthy exchange of views.

My comment and again, don't take it out of context:

We all support, more hunting opportunity. We all support an increase in hunter numbers. We want to hunt, and we want to share the experience with those around us. Is speaking to hunting, not one particular kind of hunting as it would appear you assumed.

Politics? Just what do you think hunting is, if not government by political views. Hunting is entirely subject to the whims of the non hunting majority and the politicians who want their votes.

California don't have any natives either. Now why is that? Because they put a bounty on them and exterminated them.

IF we want to preserve any right to hunt, you have to buy into the politics of hunting and lobby exactly as required to have any opportunity. Play the game or the game plays you and you lose. Sorry that's reality.

Some of us work tirelessly to do just that, preserve your right to hunt and look for new and innovative hunting opportunities. While others enjoy the opportunity.

It takes a lot of work.

python
10-24-2005, 03:11 PM
Wow! Looks like an arrow throwing machine. That would look good mounted on the cage of my dune buggy.

ratherbefishin
11-09-2005, 10:45 PM
I for one would like to see an ''antique weapons'' season which would include bows,crossbows and muzzle loaders''and let each choose his weapon he feels competent with.If anything, that seems to be left out in this discussion-I would far rather someone leave their bow at home and use a crossbow or muzzle loader than go out and wound an animal because he wanted to be ''tradional'' and if that was the case-then only longbows and wood arrows should be used

Sikanni Stalker
11-09-2005, 11:02 PM
I haven't read the entire post yet but at this point I can say this: what this good ole boy is saying is this is the reason we need to get our kids into the feild too! how bad can it be teaching them about critterz and the bush and responsibilty!

[quote=tmarschall]"The one thing we all can do is try to get more real sportsmen out in the field."