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Garret
10-07-2008, 11:36 PM
Have a question about counting points for the immature season for moose. I called a nice big bull out tonight he had an impressive set of antlers but since fighting has broken off one side. He had 2 points on his front palm and was broken off near the base of his main beam. My question is does his main beam break count as a 3rd point or is he still classified a legal 2 point?

Mr. Dean
10-08-2008, 12:07 AM
See the regs on how to measure/make points.
It sounds to me that its a 2

How the CO would interpret it, I dunno.

ThisIsLiving
10-08-2008, 05:56 AM
its to or less no matter what the circumstances..... if its broken deformed no matter what....

ratherbefishin
10-08-2008, 06:03 AM
so-what defence do you have if a CO comes upon you with a mature bull-and a broken antler,obviously shot off-but making it a legal two point?

ThisIsLiving
10-08-2008, 06:14 AM
lol welll shot off is just plain right stupid and completely illegal thats pretty much the end of your hunting career if they catch u doing that.... but an old break or deformation is fine.....

cmac099
10-08-2008, 06:18 AM
it is not legal.... i talked to a CO one time about it... everybody would be snapping off antlers if that was the case.

Caveman
10-08-2008, 07:06 AM
If the broken stump does not meet the definition of a tine it IS legal as a spike/fork bull. There better not be any saw marks or gun shot holes or your story will have holes in it.

ThisIsLiving
10-08-2008, 07:08 AM
yea... my dad is a CO lol and people dont take enough time to make sure its a legal moose they just get all excited see small antlers and shoot it is not legal to do this and if u get pulled over u will get caught ....

ASPEN
10-08-2008, 07:40 AM
Interesting question as this came up on our hunt last week-A 5 point bull was fighting over night and one of the guys found his broken off antler-leaving a stub on one side-making him a spiker? Would it not be to easy for someone to " break" off one antler leaving nothing but a spike?

Steeleco
10-08-2008, 08:13 AM
it is not legal.... i talked to a CO one time about it... everybody would be snapping off antlers if that was the case.

Saw just that this past weekend. The tine was missing, I'm not saying the shooter did it, but if it were me, the pucker factor on the ride home would be HIGH!

Mr. Dean
10-08-2008, 08:55 AM
If the broken stump does not meet the definition of a tine it IS legal as a spike/fork bull. There better not be any saw marks or gun shot holes or your story will have holes in it.

To the letter of the law, this is correct.

jml11
10-08-2008, 08:57 AM
it is not legal.... i talked to a CO one time about it... everybody would be snapping off antlers if that was the case.


I asked a CO as well who said as long as the broken side is at least an inch it is technically legal by definition; however, ethically you should not shoot the animal as this is not the itent of the regulations, it is not an immature bull. Having said that I would probably not shoot one that was broken off but wouldn't hesistate to take one that had a natural deformity making it a a legal two-point.

Sitkaspruce
10-08-2008, 08:59 AM
I remember a case where the shooting off or breaking the antler to get it to be a two point was done by a hunter in the Vanderhoof area. He broke it off, then took shoe polish to it and spent two days rubbing the broken main beam in the dirt and mud to get it to look like an old broken main beam. It went to court because the CO said it did not meet the definition of a spike/two point definition, in his mind. See the other side was a 9-10 point, fully mature bull. The judge agreed as the idea of the spike/two point was to give hunters w/o an LEH a chance to hunt for young spike/two point bulls, other wise, hunters would do just what this guy did. The idea of the shoe polish and such was not discivered until the antler started to fade, and the polish showed up more. Then it was tested it and found out what it was. If they had known what the guy did, who knows what would have happened to him in court.:biggrin:

I have talked a few CO from the north and they will charge you if the "Two" point is not an immature bull. I personally would call the local CO's to see their interpetation of the rule and if they say it is OK, when you do shoot a two point, mature bull, get them to give you an inspection notice saying it is OK. It will save you a bunch of hassells.

This is always a contensious issue and some people will argue for and against the issue. For me, the rule was put in place to be able to shoot immatures, not shoot broken tined, mature moose.

Cheers

SS

Mr. Dean
10-08-2008, 09:03 AM
so-what defence do you have if a CO comes upon you with a mature bull-and a broken antler,obviously shot off-but making it a legal two point?

.....Thus leading us to the grey matter of the law. :rolleyes:

Lots of moose get beat up during the rut and end up lop-sided. How a person could convincingly argue that to a CO (or ?) would be nice to see.


I'm sure it's been done! I'd like to hear from those that have.

Mr. Dean
10-08-2008, 09:05 AM
I asked a CO as well who said as long as the broken side is at least an inch it is technically legal by definition; however, ethically you should not shoot the animal as this is not the itent of the regulations, it is not an immature bull. Having said that I would probably not shoot one that was broken off but wouldn't hesistate to take one that had a natural deformity making it a a legal two-point.


The regulation doesn't mention that the moose NEEDS to be an immy. In fact, it doesn't mention the word 'immature' anywhere in it.

lip_ripper00
10-08-2008, 09:14 AM
When moose fight they will often try to gore each other in the nuts, if a testical is damaged it will deform horn growth. Huge paddle on one side, 2 point on the other, legal

Steeleco
10-08-2008, 09:19 AM
When moose fight they will often try to gore each other in the nuts, if a testical is damaged it will deform horn growth. Huge paddle on one side, 2 point on the other, legal

So you can be my legal council should I need!!! :-?:-?

Mr. Dean
10-08-2008, 09:36 AM
Personally, I'd stay away from broken horns.

mrdoog
10-08-2008, 10:10 AM
The synopsis refers only to antler configuration, not the maturity of the moose.
If the stated purpose of the law was to shoot only immature moose, then we would all be out looking for tripalms still hanging with their mothers.

hunter1947
10-08-2008, 11:51 AM
The antler that is broken off proubly has aged from time and and if it only has two points there you are legal to shoot it.

NEEHAMA
10-08-2008, 12:14 PM
ybadink ?

we know their trying to keep immatures open for hunting and give us a chance should we be lucky and see one. why try to be pig's and shoot all this grey area crap. won't this be step in the wrong direction for the future of our sport ?

letsbesmartk

Fisher-Dude
10-08-2008, 12:15 PM
The regulation doesn't mention that the moose NEEDS to be an immy. In fact, it doesn't mention the word 'immature' anywhere in it.

What he said. Immy went out years ago because of the confusion in the definition of a two point.



Personally, I'd stay away from broken horns.

What he said, again.


For me, it wouldn't be worth the controversy to shoot such an animal. Natural deformations, you betcha, he's goin' down, and I have shot one 2x5 with a freak antler on one side. A freshly broken antler, and I ain't touchin' it with a 10 foot pole. I like my hunting experiences to be fun and rewarding, not filled with grief and controversy.

jml11
10-08-2008, 12:19 PM
The regulation doesn't mention that the moose NEEDS to be an immy. In fact, it doesn't mention the word 'immature' anywhere in it.


Not it doesn't but the management intent of the spike\fork regulations are to harvest yearling bulls not mature bulls with broken horns or deformities, I think that is quite clear. Again one of the many problems with antler configuration regulations....I know guys who have passed up mature bulls with antler deformities making them a legal two-point bull simply because they are conservationists and don't think it is right. Too bad for them as someone else probably shoot the bull anyways...would've been me if I was there!

Fisher-Dude
10-08-2008, 12:28 PM
I have talked a few CO from the north and they will charge you if the "Two" point is not an immature bull. I personally would call the local CO's to see their interpetation of the rule and if they say it is OK, when you do shoot a two point, mature bull, get them to give you an inspection notice saying it is OK. It will save you a bunch of hassells.

This is always a contensious issue and some people will argue for and against the issue. For me, the rule was put in place to be able to shoot immatures, not shoot broken tined, mature moose.

Cheers

SS

Not so. You are confused with the old definition and the new (5 - 6 years?) definition in the regs. The CO up north is up his arse if he is charging people who shoot a moose that is perfectly legal according to the definition in the Wildlife Act. I saw a 1x10 (or so) with a deformed 6" stub that got in the willows too fast for me to get a shot at. The CO Supervisor was at a road check that day, I relayed my story to him, and he said "Damn, you shoulda shot him, he's legal!" as soon as I described it.

From the regs:

Spike/fork bull - means a bull moose having no more than two tines on one antler.

That's it. A 27x2 bull has no more than 2 tines on one antler, and is legal. The bios take all moose harvested, both little guys and big guys, into account where there are spike/fork seasons, and so far those seasons have all proven to be sustainable. The only one cancelled was region 5, and that had nothing to do with sustainability, it had to do with FN political bullshit.

6616
10-08-2008, 12:45 PM
IMHO a mature bull with broken antlers can be a legal bull in a spike/fork season depending on how the antlers are broken. They need to be able to meet the definition of "no more than two points on one side" whether they are remaining points or original points.

That being said, even though it does not mention immature in the definition or in the regulations, immature harvest is without doubt the intent of the hunt and is sustainable only because of the high natural mortaility rate of immy's, thus making the hunting harvest of immys largely compensatory rather that additive to overall mortaility.

Harvest of immys being the overall intent, I would say a mature with a broken horn had better clearly and definitively meet the definition without any doubt or you're apt to get charged.

There is always some grey area when it comes to horn and antler size/point definitions, if you harvest in that grey area whether you get charged or not might just depend on what side of the bed the CO got up on that morning and possibly other extenuating circumstances.

Sitkaspruce
10-08-2008, 01:35 PM
Not so. You are confused with the old definition and the new (5 - 6 years?) definition in the regs. The CO up north is up his arse if he is charging people who shoot a moose that is perfectly legal according to the definition in the Wildlife Act. I saw a 1x10 (or so) with a deformed 6" stub that got in the willows too fast for me to get a shot at. The CO Supervisor was at a road check that day, I relayed my story to him, and he said "Damn, you shoulda shot him, he's legal!" as soon as I described it.

I am not the one confused. I stated that the CO's (thats Plural:shock::tongue:) that I talked to in the North stated this fact, not me. I know the intent of the rule, but not everone likes to follow them. Would I shoot a deformed spike on one side, fully mature on the other, YUP, would I shoot a broken antlered bull, NOPE. As I stated in my last post, I mentioned a incident that saw a guy screw with the regs and get caught.

From the regs:

Spike/fork bull - means a bull moose having no more than two tines on one antler.

That's it. A 27x2 bull has no more than 2 tines on one antler, and is legal. The bios take all moose harvested, both little guys and big guys, into account where there are spike/fork seasons, and so far those seasons have all proven to be sustainable. The only one cancelled was region 5, and that had nothing to do with sustainability, it had to do with FN political bullshit.

I agree, but the MOE needs to be more clear on their definition and wonderful drawings, as I can be confusing to new hunters and hunters who have not hunted moose.


Like I said before, it is a contencious issue and we all have our opinions and ethics to follow.

Cheers

SS

Fisher-Dude
10-08-2008, 07:45 PM
There seems to be some confusion on the "management intent" of the spike/fork seasons. The intent is not to harvest young bulls. The intent is to restrict harvest so that some form of GOS can afford opportunity for hunters. Region 7B has a spike/fork/tri-palm/10 point season - clearly the intent is to restrict harvest, not to target an age class. We aren't managing moose, we are managing hunters/harvest with these rules. Again, all that is needed for successful breeding is a sperm supply, and this is irrespective of age class. There is no management for recruitment of bulls with a spike/fork season as there is with a 6 point elk season. It is simply a technique to restrict harvest levels in a GOS.

I have a copy of Ecodomain Consulting's "Towards Improved Moose Management Strategy" which was recently prepared for the HCTF in March 2008. It cites studies by Hatter (1998 ) and Child (1996) wherein harvest strategies are examined - not population demographics - around restrictive moose antler seasons. There is no talk of "gotta shoot the immies" for population dynamics, as the science does not support any specific bull moose demographic theories as being optimal. There's only talk of how to have more moose seasons by restricting harvest.

mark
10-08-2008, 08:27 PM
Here one I got last year, he grew a 3x3 rack but broke off his eye guard near the base. If you look real close you can see the lil bump at the base. I felt no guilt as I strapped the head to the roof of my rig, even went to work the next day like that!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/data/500/medium/IMG_2243_Medium_.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/showphoto.php?photo=6543&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)

Alpine85
10-08-2008, 08:34 PM
Here one I got last year, he grew a 3x3 rack but broke off his eye guard near the base. If you look real close you can see the lil bump at the base. I felt no guilt as I strapped the head to the roof of my rig, even went to work the next day like that!




That you did, not every day you see a moose head in a car park. :-o

Fisher-Dude
10-08-2008, 08:53 PM
That you did, not every day you see a moose head in a car park. :-o

He was so concerned with the extreme "shrinkage" that occurred when he dragged that bull through the icy water, that he forgot all about the moose head on top of his Tracker! :shock:

bc-shedder
10-08-2008, 09:43 PM
i beleive its still not legal even if its a 2 point on one side because its clearly a mature bull on the other side.

mark
10-08-2008, 09:57 PM
i beleive its still not legal even if its a 2 point on one side because its clearly a mature bull on the other side.

Shedder, you should re-read the regs, cuz yer so wrong!
Anyone who still mutters the term Immature is lost in the past, keep passing them up boys, thats more moose for those of us that can read!

6616
10-08-2008, 11:20 PM
There seems to be some confusion on the "management intent" of the spike/fork seasons. The intent is not to harvest young bulls. The intent is to restrict harvest so that some form of GOS can afford opportunity for hunters. Region 7B has a spike/fork/tri-palm/10 point season - clearly the intent is to restrict harvest, not to target an age class. We aren't managing moose, we are managing hunters/harvest with these rules. Again, all that is needed for successful breeding is a sperm supply, and this is irrespective of age class. There is no management for recruitment of bulls with a spike/fork season as there is with a 6 point elk season. It is simply a technique to restrict harvest levels in a GOS

I would say both concepts are generally correct to some degree. There is the objective of the hunt (to create hunting opportunity), then there is the operative methology (harvest strategy) used to reach that objective, which could be considered part of the intent of the overall regulation. (Semantics ???)

In comparison to a full LEH season, the intent of the s/f season is to provide a GOS hunting opportunity without significant risk to populations, and reducing the risk is accomplished by restricting the harvest to the most expendable component of the population (yearlings).

When compared to full a GOS season the intent is without doubt to reduce the overall harvest just like any other antler point restricted hunt.

I believe the Region 7 hunts are designed to control overall harvest numbers, to maximize opportunity without resorting to full LEH, as well as to distribute the moose harvest between all age classes of the population thus attempting to maintain the social structure of the herd (multiple objectives).

The social structure of any population can be seriously upset by harvesting only from a single age and sex class, IE: research has identified long term population concerns with 4pt mule deer regulations and 6pt elk regulations.

Paulyman
10-08-2008, 11:38 PM
Law is law, if it says "not having more that two measurable tines on one side" is a legal spike fork bull,then it's a closed case LEGAL!

Toad Hunter
10-09-2008, 12:30 PM
I shot a 4 x 2 a few years back in Mackenzie and had it in the cooler and the CO saw it, made the comment that it was bigger than the rest. The butcher said I got lucky; I showed the CO the antlers and he said - good on yah! It was clear that they were broken, rubbed, bumped whatever when they were in velvet.

Ethical - hell yah! Lawful - you bet.

NEEHAMA
10-09-2008, 02:29 PM
ok so antlers changed by "natural causes" are ok but things shot off could be a bit dicey.

now i wonder how many guy's would "modify" antlers after the kill with their gun?

bc-shedder
10-09-2008, 04:38 PM
Shedder, you should re-read the regs, cuz yer so wrong!
Anyone who still mutters the term Immature is lost in the past, keep passing them up boys, thats more moose for those of us that can read!

Mark theres no need to be a smart ass on here.

Caveman
10-09-2008, 04:51 PM
Mark theres no need to be a smart ass on here.

I can be good for a laugh though. :razz: It this bantering back and forth that makes things interesting........Education without being bored to Death

Don't take it personal!

jessbennett
11-25-2008, 12:24 PM
yea... my dad is a CO lol and people dont take enough time to make sure its a legal moose they just get all excited see small antlers and shoot it is not legal to do this and if u get pulled over u will get caught ....


a spike fork is a spike fork. it does not matter. the regs do not specify anything other than a spike fork period. ive been through this. at a roadblock. 6 points on one side and a spike on the other. the co looked at it and said congradulations, and have a good night.

hotload
11-25-2008, 07:28 PM
I have actually been in court with this very same type of case. C.O. nails a guy because one antler is broken off and the other side actually is very large. C.O. declares this very illegal. He goes to court with definitions in hand. Immature didn't come into play in this hearing it was about the definition of tines, which fit all criteria. Case tossed, the guy was eating moose. C.O. was eating CROW.

johnk
11-25-2008, 07:56 PM
I have actually been in court with this very same type of case. C.O. nails a guy because one antler is broken off and the other side actually is very large. C.O. declares this very illegal. He goes to court with definitions in hand. Immature didn't come into play in this hearing it was about the definition of tines, which fit all criteria. Case tossed, the guy was eating moose. C.O. was eating CROW.

So with that case's outcome would that not open a big ol' can of worms? I mean couldn't every hunter go out and shoot any mature bull and snap one antler off by whatever means are available to him?

jwe63
11-25-2008, 08:03 PM
I think the CO's are smart enough to tell if an antler has been recently blasted off!