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deer nut
09-18-2008, 12:15 PM
Just wondering re: opinions on potential impacts to alpine and wilderness experiences. Hunters and anglers give back more than any other sector to conservation - but we'd better start paying attention or the things we value could be affected.

Wildman
09-18-2008, 01:03 PM
:idea:You don't think they do an environmental impact assessment....they have to conform to MoE & MoFR legislation and regulation....come on.
Yes, variances are made to cross through WHA, UWR, OGMA etc... but the area is added onto another portion of that very same UWR ect. that was effected...
VIA's (Visual Impact Assessments) must also be carried out....
While we are at it....AIA's (Archaeological Impact Assessments) are also completed.
Do you even know what you are talking about or just shooting your mouth off....:roll:

deer nut
09-18-2008, 01:24 PM
What good does it do to conduct an assessment on each little project if you're not looking at the big picture?

ryanb
09-18-2008, 01:51 PM
Sounds like you're just eating up the NDP propaganda. Like Wildman says, these projects each have to undergo Environmental impact assessments which when carried out takes into effect the surrounding environment including other power projects in the area.

These are some of the facts at play, and while they may seem obvious, please consider them.

-The province's population is growing faster than the electrical capacity.
-These projects are moving forward because we NEED the electricity, period, endstop.
-To get electricity, we need powerlines that come from power plants.
-Power plants need some form of energy to generate electricity. We can either build coal, natural gas, or nuclear plants...or we can make an effort to move toward renewable power production.
-BC hydro has neither the capacity nor the capital to fund multiple hydro projects, which is why they are being funded by private enterprise.
-Private enterprise needs some sort of contract and assurance with the province for the use of the resource. Would you expect any business to invest a large amount of capital in a project without any assurance of proffitability?

I am in no way affiliated with this industry, but to me it seems like the best way to meet the energy and environmental challenges facing our province (and world) as we continue to grow.

deer nut
09-18-2008, 01:57 PM
All valid points....I am not saying we don't need these things, but we need to retain some controls over our resources!

Gateholio
09-18-2008, 02:06 PM
Who controls the access?

Who controls the water?

Wildman
09-18-2008, 02:16 PM
As far as I am aware; the VIA's are cumulative...they include any current/past logging, roads etc...However, it depends on whether there is a visual polygon attached to it though...some places do not.
Though there are so many projects in the works...I am going to guess that only a small fraction will ever go ahead.
There is a 30 day consultation period whereas the public is notified on the plan. I am not entirely sure how that works in regards to being able to reject a project.
in this day in age.....environmental issues are addressed, not swept under the mat, or hidden. They have to be. If they are not sufficiently addressed and planned; there is no project.
Sure there could be more stringent rules and regs....but there will never be another Red Stripe Mountain.
Sorry if I seemed a bit snotty, for lack of a better word, I just don't believe that these projects are being miss-managed.
You can never take too small of steps when dealing with these new uncharted territory type projects...lets hope the govt feels the same, I believe they do; or we will have another oil sands type raping like what is happening in AB.

deer nut
09-18-2008, 02:17 PM
Gatehouse: you've hit the nail on the head.

Wildman
09-18-2008, 02:20 PM
Sounds like you're just eating up the NDP propaganda. Like Wildman says, these projects each have to undergo Environmental impact assessments which when carried out takes into effect the surrounding environment including other power projects in the area.

These are some of the facts at play, and while they may seem obvious, please consider them.

-The province's population is growing faster than the electrical capacity.
-These projects are moving forward because we NEED the electricity, period, endstop.
-To get electricity, we need powerlines that come from power plants.
-Power plants need some form of energy to generate electricity. We can either build coal, natural gas, or nuclear plants...or we can make an effort to move toward renewable power production.
-BC hydro has neither the capacity nor the capital to fund multiple hydro projects, which is why they are being funded by private enterprise.
-Private enterprise needs some sort of contract and assurance with the province for the use of the resource. Would you expect any business to invest a large amount of capital in a project without any assurance of proffitability?

I am in no way affiliated with this industry, but to me it seems like the best way to meet the energy and environmental challenges facing our province (and world) as we continue to grow.

I agree with Ryan here....very valid points. These are our 'greenest' energy solutions...much better than the alternative.

deer nut
09-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Sorry if I seemed a bit snotty, for lack of a better word, I just don't believe that these projects are being miss-managed. Wildman: I value your opinion.

I love the alpine and just hope there are some areas retained in their natural state - we can always develop them later....

I must also say, being new to this forum, that I am impressed by the quality of the posts! :smile:

Wildman
09-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Wildman: I value your opinion. You are obviously well-informed. Perhaps I just lack your faith in the powers that be.

I love the alpine and just hope there are some areas retained in their natural state - we can always develop them later! Why are we in such a hurry to give away our valuable resources?

BTW - the powerlines also will have a negative effect on forestry (I see by your profile this is your profession). Concerns about isolating timber for heli-logging across the Sunshine Coast remain unanswered.

I must also say, being new to this forum, that I am impressed by the quality of the posts! :smile:

Yup....Forestry but my father is on his eighth IPP project. I have just got my feet wet with my first two ...both in the beginning stages now; one has been approved by MoE and is much further along than the other. Each is completely different. One is 15mw, the other is only 5, different areas, different challenges, different.....
Forestry reall isn't much different than this IPP stuff...many of the same processes, legislation, regulation...
If these projects are isolating timber...yes they are...it leaves more OG for the wildlife...not a bad thing....
True, we shouldn't be in such a hurry to 'mine' all of our natural resources. i.e. oil sands.

c.r.hunter
09-18-2008, 02:35 PM
-BC hydro has neither the capacity nor the capital to fund multiple hydro projects, which is why they are being funded by private enterprise.
-Private enterprise needs some sort of contract and assurance with the province for the use of the resource. Would you expect any business to invest a large amount of capital in a project without any assurance of proffitability?


The Province of BC can't afford to handle their own Hydro Projects???? What a crock. More like Campbell would rather give it away to free enterprise. I'ts been his mandate since day one to discontinue any future BC Hydro projects. Hmm, I wonder if he made any promises to private power companies before he got in? I'd be willing to bet some heftey campain contributions may have been made???
I don't have a problem with run of the river projects DONE AS ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND AS POSSIBLE, but giving it away for free and then giving the (OUR) water rights FOREVER to these companies is bullS#*t. It should be done by BC HYDRO and it should be owned by the people of B.C.

deer nut
09-18-2008, 02:42 PM
Check out this site: http://www.ippwatch.info/w/ Hard to know what is pure propaganda, but the map is pretty alarming!

I believe in free enterprise while maintaining public ownership of the basis for our wealth - our natural resources! Water, fish, forests and wildlife! Do we want to follow the US model? I say NO THANKS!

Thanks guys for weighing in! This is topical and as a community we should at least make our voices heard. It merits a closer look even if we don't agree!

CT.45
09-18-2008, 03:53 PM
YOU GUYS ARE TOO LATE!!!! The legislation is through. Now a regional district can no longer say yes or no to an IPP. The government has taken away that right and awarded it to the companies that want to dam and divert. This was also called the "Ashlu or Rutherford" bill. After years of Ledcor trying to mess with the Rutherford and Ashlu drainages in Squamish area, the Regional District always had the last say and they always said no. The government pushed through legislation in 2006 or last year that took away the right of the residents in those areas to choose whether they wanted the power projects on their neighborhood watersheds. Everybody took no notice. Once more the government not thinking of the people, only the companies.
Check out Bill 30. Man, this topic makes me really angry. ****!!!!!!!

CT.45
09-18-2008, 04:00 PM
In British Columbia, the population, today, is in the process of being robbed in one of the largest, dirtiest, fraudulent deals in Canadian history - with very little time to reverse the direction. It is a move to destroy democratic management of an absolutely key B.C. resource, to implant foreign corporate rule raking in billions of dollars, to kidnap and erase resource ownership by British Columbians, and to impoverish them in a move to create what will be - put in simple terms - a fascist relation between private corporate capitalism (heavily foreign, heavily U.S.) and the B.C. government through an inferior and rapacious exploitation of B.C.s water resources.

At the root of this robbery is Gordon Campbell, his cabinet, and his MLAs. They have lied, have hidden information, have legislated to prevent democratic participation and to keep information completely from British Columbians. They are doing everything they can to shut off the voice and to kill the aspirations of British Columbians for the continuation of a fair, publicly owned, service oriented energy system intrinsic to the health and prosperity of the Province.
The history - for at least the last five years - has been of resistance from nice public organizations, nice unions, a love-in Legislative Opposition, nice researchers and nice freelance journalists working on the issue, getting nowhere, losing ground each day, and being made to look like grade school dummies by the relentless manipulation and corrupt practice of the Gordon Campbell mob and its corporate puppeteers, Canadian and U.S. A few times people and groups have stalled the political thuggery. But the Campbell juggernaut has pushed past all fair and decent dealing - gaining, not losing, power.
The corrupt deal in B.C. must be stopped soon by whatever means works. British Columbians must use every means - including a General Strike to stop the B.C. premier Gordon Campbell handing over the public wealth of B.C. to private corporations dragging and B.C.s key energy resource into a system largely owned and controlled and mismanaged in the U.S. where the hugest portion of profit will flow.
The mystery is why Gordon Campbell and his cabinet are not dogged, confronted, and forced into public focus every day. Each time they move to pass legislation stripping British Columbians of democratic rights, or to sell out B.C.'s water, the Opposition should stop the legislature from operating. That is the Opposition's democratic obligation: to focus the attention of British Columbians when government power is destroying the Province and the democratic rights of Canadians. The Opposition MLAs should block debate and the passage of all legislation. The press and media of B.C would then be forced to tell the reason for the opposition's obduracy, thereby exposing the Campbell government. That is what democratic opposition is about. Unions should refuse to work, should stop the economy - a democratic weapon available to them. In France the workers did just that recently. French government passed legislation to begin the destruction of French unions. With students and other supporters, the French unions took to the streets and closed institutions until the French government withdrew the legislation completely.
What is the core of the theft in B.C.?
Having promised not to privatize B.C. Hydro, the most valuable water generating electric system in North America, Gordon Campbell is destroying it.
One. By his 2002 B.C. Energy Plan B.C. Hydro is prevented permanently from developing further electrical generation and is being forced to buy from private generators.
Two. Campbell is burying B.C. Hydro in billions of dollars of debt through advance energy purchase agreements with those private corporations.
Three. Campbell has opened all B.C.'s hundreds of rivers to virtual gift-takeovers by a network of foreign, often U.S. corporations.
Four. He has passed legislation - Bill 30 - which prevents all B.C. Municipalities from having any power over zoning of electrical generating facilities erected by private (many foreign) corporations on B.C. rivers. In effect, he has strangled the democratic rights of B.C. Municipalities.
Five. Campbell has forced B.C. Hydro to out-source a third of its staff to Accenture, a highly dubious Bermuda-based operation. All metering, billing, and financial services of B.C. Hydro have been handed to Accenture by the B.C. government. Accenture came into being from its original life as Arthur Anderson Consulting which was so implicated in the Enron scandal it was virtually destroyed and had to disappear. Its reappearance is as Accenture. It is now a major "partner" in the B.C. water generated energy system.
The government agreement with Accenture is kept secret from the voters of British Columbia, kept so by legislation, denying British Columbians their democratic rights.
Six. Campbell forced a second split in B.C. Hydro to create the B.C. Transmission Corporation. Its purpose is to make B.C. Hydro accessible to all (private) producers so it can become an instrument (of the often U.S. "private" owners of B.C. rivers) to ship electricity to the U.S.at inflated prices - which will become the prices British Columbians pay.
Seven. Unknown to most British Columbians, B.C. Hydro - instead of increasing its electrical generating capacity - is paying out well over $400 million per year to purchase from the burgeoning private operators. That is a totally unnecessary situation.
Eight. Those private operators are The Independent Power Producers of B.C., many neither independent nor "of B.C.". Unrestrained, they will make multi billions selling to U.S. buyers in a system that will force up nearly all living costs for British Columbians
Nine. To mask his ultimate intention, Campbell has wooed and won some First Nations groups and some real or "convenient" environmental groups. All of them can have their "participation" and ownership rugs pulled out from under them - precisely as Campbell has undermined B.C. Hydro - whenever it is convenient for the huge U.S. corporations wanting to own B.C. power.
Ten. The Campbell government is doing everything it can to prevent resistance from British Columbians, passing legislation to cut off citizen groups and municipal rights and trying to shut up organizations or institutions it can't erase - like the Squamish-Lilloet Regional District which is a key obstacle to the complete meltdown of the citizens rights in B.C. that Campbell is determined to destroy.
That is the "what". Why is it happening?
British Columbia is up against a global development that is ruthless, rapacious, and without conscience. The corporations in North America which are trying to corner all electric generation as a privately owned commodity intend to grab B.C. water resources for themselves. Who are those people? Where does their power come from?
The reactionary government of Stephen Harper is in a love affair with the U.S. government and - in effect - with the U.S. military industrial complex. The Gordon Campbell B.C. government is a sub-office of that general structure, determined to replace the democratic power of British Columbians with the power of "North American capital", "of an integrated economy", "of an unimpeded free trade area". Whatever phrase is used to describe the goal of the Campbell government, it is - in simple terms - to rob British Columbians of their heritage in a publicly owned resource with public service as its mandate and to destroy democracy in the Province in order to imbed unchallenged and uncriticized private corporate rule in its place.
The history of B.C. Hydro's dark days can be written briefly. In the premiership of Bill Bennett (judged guilty of insider trading on the Stock Market when premier) the gas section of B.C. Hydro was sold off on condition that it remain a B.C. Company headquartered in B.C. It became (as a private company) B.C. Gas and then Terasen.
A few years ago Gordon Campbell slipped into other legislation the release of Terasen Gas from B.C. ownership. Very soon after it was sold to Richard Kinder, a Texas, ex-Enron executive. (Observe how companies that have been in deep legal trouble in the U.S. provide key figures in the B.C. Hydro story.)
Kinder is said to have made two billion dollars in one year from Terasen. He quickly brought into its ownership the Carlyle Group.
In any country concerned to protect its population Campbell's foul betrayal of trust would be declared sedition. It would be called criminal theft from the B.C. people in favour of private interests (many foreign), inimical to the well-being of Canada and British Columbia.
Will we seize the opportunity?

Wildman
09-18-2008, 06:12 PM
Good post....CT.45

I have nothing to say right now, your in a league above me. I have not delved into the history of why...

While we are on 'green energy' think about things like biodegradable plastic bags....good idea? it takes more petroleum products to produce the 'green plastic bags' than it does to create non-biodegradable plastic bags...way more. Is it worth it who knows...the point is - now totally derailed the thread - just because someone says something is 'green' or is 'green' it isn't nessissarily the best option...

I am bias in regards to IPP - for me, it's good. For you, maybe not.

johnes50
09-18-2008, 06:36 PM
Keep up the good work CT.45. It appears you've done some research on the subject. We need more informative postings like yours to see just how badly we've been manipulated and taken advantage of by Gordo and his cronies. Knowledge is power.

Going Green is just another way of saying we're going to give you the 'Green Shaft' and tax you some more.

vortex
09-18-2008, 07:34 PM
There are a few things that concern me about these projects.
They are allowed to take 80 to 90% of the flow out of the creek depending on when their permit was issued. That means that the original creek will be pretty much wet rocks for several km's where the water has been removed. No fish there.
Another thing is the power lines that will be going everywhere. Just because there is a right-of-way close by doesn't mean that they can hook into it. There will be lines running for miles to get to somewhere where the grid has the capacity to handle the new power brought in. The back country of SW BC will have a large number of new lines running around.
As for any job creation from these projects, think again. The number of employees required to handle the running all of the Stave River and upper Harrison sites is expected to be----------ONE. There are many jobs in the costruction of these projects however a large number of Kiewets employees that work on the construction live in Quebec and the Maritimes. Not too many BC boys there.
I think the gov't could have done a few things a bit better

Little Hawk
09-19-2008, 06:08 AM
Howdy,

The Campbell government has 'generated-a-crisis' claiming that BC Hydro can not meet our provinces energy needs. Without debate or due-process he has now signed away the rights to our rivers & streams to private power companies who will, ultimately, resell the power they make back to us at two or three times what we now pay for our electricity.

Affordable power here in BC - thank you Gordon Campbell - is going the way of the Queen Charlotte Island Cariboo.

Those of you who are not up to speed on this - and many aren't due to the felonious and surreptitious passage of this environmental travesty - might want to read more on the topic at: http://www.saveourrivers.ca/

Rafe Mair is currently crusading for the Save Our Rivers campaign and is working hard to get Campbell un-elected.

This is really SCARY stuff for all us outdoorsmen/women; those of us who truly care about wild things and wild places.

Gordon Campbell, with his support for the foreign-owned net-pen fishfarming business, and now this river's-power fiasco, is an environmental-rapist... he's about as 'GREEN' as the EXXON VALDEZ!

Wake up and smell the generators!

Standing for Wild Salmon,

Terry Anderson

Wildman
09-19-2008, 07:10 AM
They are allowed to take 80 to 90% of the flow out of the creek

Not if there is fish they can't.

6616
09-19-2008, 07:49 AM
There were more run of the river IPPs licensed and constructed under the former NDP government then there has been under the current Liberal government. The NDP thought it was a good idea when they were doing it ????????

ryanb
09-19-2008, 09:37 AM
For all those that are opposed to IPP's, one simple question:
How are we going to meet the growing demand for electricity as our province continues to grow at a rapid pace?

I'll be the first to admit, there are a lot of flaws with the IPP projects, but there is simply no viable alternative being offered at this time.

If the NDP wins the next Provincial election, be prepared for them to put a moratorium on these IPP's. Power shortages and rolling brownouts or blackouts will soon follow...

Shooter
09-19-2008, 09:43 AM
I don't understand why there hasn't been more research into wind energy? Like offshore windmills or something of the sort

mrdoog
09-19-2008, 09:51 AM
I think another tax would sort this out just fine.

CT.45
09-19-2008, 11:33 AM
I don't understand why there hasn't been more research into wind energy? Like offshore windmills or something of the sort

Big money energy companies buy politicians to influance policy to keep us more dependant on fossil fuels. If serious concern for renewable and sustainable energy sources started at the last energy crisis in the 70's, then today we would have some options. Not enough research and development money has gone into these other sources. We are way behind the 8 ball here.

As far as brownouts and the like....
We all need to do what we can as individuals to reduce energy consumption. Not easy to do. With the rising costs of energy, families will gravitate towards this to relieve the strain on the purse strings. We need to do more.

I personally don't need my entire street lit up every time the sun goes down. I have a head lamp to help find my way, a light on my bike and the kids, lights on my house, in my yard and on my vehicle. Turn off all the unnecessary bloody lights.

There will have to be a global shift in thinking for us to be able to survive successfully, long term. I don't think it will happen. Even if Canada and all of its residents were totally 'green', there would not be enough of a global impact to offset the pollution of China, India, Pakistan, etc...

I think George Carlin put it best when he described the tightening spiral of the toilet bowl......... RIP George.

This is not the place for all of this. Good luck this season gents and our few lady members.........

newhunterette
09-19-2008, 11:37 AM
Just some food for thought - Denmark is surrounded by ocean and fishing was extremely good there as well as hunting is very big over in Europe

and look in the background of these photos - amazing how they get their energy

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x185/ioarana/DSC_0142.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x185/ioarana/DSC_0150.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x185/ioarana/DSC_0156.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x185/ioarana/DSC_0162.jpg

6616
09-19-2008, 06:02 PM
For all those that are opposed to IPP's, one simple question:
How are we going to meet the growing demand for electricity as our province continues to grow at a rapid pace?

I'll be the first to admit, there are a lot of flaws with the IPP projects, but there is simply no viable alternative being offered at this time....


Unless one is OK with another mega-dam Hydro project like site C on the Peace, one better hope like heck that the IPP program works...support it..!

It's silly to oppose the entire program. There are good proposals and bad proposals. Support the good ones, oppose the bad ones like Pitt River.

Run of the river is not automatically bad, the two run of the river projects in the East Kootenay that have been operating for decades now have not negativelly impacted the world class fisheries in the Bull and Elk Rivers. Do not buy into the anti-use, doom and gloom hype.

SUAFOYT
09-19-2008, 06:08 PM
For all those that are opposed to IPP's, one simple question:
How are we going to meet the growing demand for electricity as our province continues to grow at a rapid pace?

I'll be the first to admit, there are a lot of flaws with the IPP projects, but there is simply no viable alternative being offered at this time.

If the NDP wins the next Provincial election, be prepared for them to put a moratorium on these IPP's. Power shortages and rolling brownouts or blackouts will soon follow...

Before you start with the conspiracy theories, lets really look at what's happening. These run of the river projects are a means of the province of taking the sneaky way out of upgrading Hydro's infrastructure. They give us this song and dance about how they can't build this or they can't do that. Let's remember that we can't store power. We can produce it and then use it. In BC we have the luxury of technically having storage capacity because of held back water behind dams. So ask yourselves why we don't upgrade our existing facilities. The Burrard thermal plant in the lower mainland is operating at less that 50% of capacity. Why is that?Alberta puts excess power on our grid system at a price to Hydro of around 1 penny/kWh. BC then sells it to us at 6.5c/kWh. Why? Because it's a license to print money. Some of a dam's turbines can be closed off relatively easy, as in non peak hours. A coal fired gen plant has to run 24/7. So maybe we should be asking the boys in Victoria why we're getting the shaft instead of getting a break on the AB power that is put on our own transmission system that we've bought and paid for, and hold off on what the NDP might do. Further to that, how is it that the two tiered power system is hardly getting any mention? Tell me of any business, whether Crown Corp or not that doesn't want you to buy more of their product? I can't think of any. Yet we now have the spectacle of Hydro nailing consumers with a surcharge if they use over a certain amount under the guise of conservation. But the real big users as in mills and such are exempt, they get a lesser rate because of how much they use.

These IPPs will give this government the excuse they need to sell the big lie to us that because of BC Hydro's inability to supply our needs, that the big IPP players can do it instead. Does the giveaway of BC Rail sound familiar? You ain't seen nothing yet. If the big IPP boys get their way, this government will sell off Hydro's assets to them for them to run and 6.5c/kWh will be a distant memory.

Wildman
09-19-2008, 07:56 PM
I don't understand why there hasn't been more research into wind energy? Like offshore windmills or something of the sort

Into energy...what about into vehicles.....

fuzzwilkens
09-21-2008, 12:51 AM
Into energy...what about into vehicles.....

Actually Denmark just signed onto the Better Place project to use new electric vehicles as storage for the excess power from wind energy that they were giving away to Germany anyway.

it starts on page 7 of this link

http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-09/ff_agassi

Little Hawk
09-21-2008, 07:07 AM
Wow!

Wonder how many sailboats get chopped-up in them suckers?

Avalanche123
09-21-2008, 07:27 AM
I grew up in a northern mining town where the mine eventually closed. Now the entire area has be converted over to wind farms. When I visited the place a few years ago, I was quite impressed with these huge giants.

There is a lot of "run of the river" projects getting attention up here much to the dismay of a number of residents. IMHO it is a *******ized version of green energy. To add to it, the river rights are sold off super cheap while the energy is sold into the grid at substantial profit.

I saw the video about the Ashulu River and that sure changed my view on things.

hannibal
09-21-2008, 07:12 PM
Clear cut some of that pesky forest and put up a couple of Nuclear power plants. that'll get us some power.

spreerider
09-21-2008, 07:37 PM
The reason we dont have much wind power in bc is the inconsistincy of the wind most places, to make a good generator you need a constant supply of wind energy at a constant speed, in bc we get lots of storms and then we get lots of times when the wind is non exiestant, you need 10Km/H wind 90% of the time to make a wind generator pay for itself in 15 years.
we import over 40% of our energy during the winter months as it is now in bc, we need to be able to supply our own power as relying on someone else could cost us big time in the event of a disaster or major war.
I would like to see more investments in Tidal power or daming mountain lakes to then drain the excess water into turbines on lower lakes that the water would natrually flow to, alot of high mountain rivers do not support fish and make ideal hydro projects, such as the elsie lake draining into great central lake on the island.