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srupp
09-18-2008, 11:54 AM
I was asked by a new hunter to accompany him to the scene of a crime..seems like he shot a decent buck his first..and didnt know how badly he hit the buck however he went to the "scene of the crime" and found some blood not much,so came home and asked for my assistance..

I went back with him now late in the afternoon..and saw where he was standing when he shot..85 yard shot with .308..(used the Leica with him standing in for the buck..saw "some blood..looked like good blood trail in an open firebrush and yellow grass..18" high..followed the blood through the trees maybe 50 yards.. and saw the blood tracks "meander" and then a bed..with considerable blood congealed....definatly SHOULD have been the end of the story....it certainly was the end of that deer...however there were more prints...human type...and a pick up (too big for ATV) sems the buck was now BUCKNAPPED...

The hours since shooting and the temp probably meant the individuals found the animal ..with no-one around and "salvaged" the game????


elementry my dear Watson.....elementry..


:tongue:

Huey
09-18-2008, 12:12 PM
So then who cuts the tag?

srupp
09-18-2008, 12:16 PM
Im not sure....

He didnt find the deer..so what does Allen put his tag on ???The "others " have the deer they would need it tagged????I dont actually know the legalities...

steven:confused:

Gateholio
09-18-2008, 12:31 PM
He doesn't have to cut his tag,m the animal was never recovered...shame that someone stole his deer.

Huey
09-18-2008, 12:37 PM
I don't know the legalities either... but I'd agree and think that he wouldn't need to cut a tag. Just hope the thieves get stopped and inspected! A frustrating experience for sure!

Th0r
09-18-2008, 12:45 PM
Yes, but if inspected and the thieves have a tag. Did they need to cut it?

Jimsue
09-18-2008, 12:59 PM
I think your friend should have made some attempt to find the buck that he was capable of shooting. You have made it sound like a fairly simple recovery. Pulling the trigger is always easy.

srupp
09-18-2008, 01:08 PM
I agree with Gate..tag what deer??

My "new aquantance " seemed very tentative ..perhaps afraid to spook a wounded animal...??Just didnt seem to know what and how to do next..

Hmm yes pretty easy.maybe some experience helps..however do-able...

No comment on the guys that "found " a dead buck..and what they did or were thinking however no one was around and there is a dead deer in the field....

Ive lost big game in the past...

Steven

phoenix
09-18-2008, 01:27 PM
I found a badly wounded whitey once. As soon as I saw it and realised it was wounded I finished it off and then yelled a bunch to see if the person who shot it was anywhere around. No one came or called back so I tagged it and hauled it off home. I don't think that was a bad thing IMHO.
Kim

srupp
09-18-2008, 01:37 PM
Phoenix and maybe that is what happened here ???

I havnt had exactly that happen so I havnt had to think what i would do...

Steven

ps good point...

tomahawk
09-18-2008, 01:45 PM
Yes, but if inspected and the thieves have a tag. Did they need to cut it?


IMHO, this could be quite a different scenario and could not be a theft at all. Whoever these other guy(s) are may have stumbled upon a deer that was either dead or wounded and did the ethical thing and recovered, or shot it and put it out of its misery. They most likely had no knowledge of if your buddy was coming back and did not want the animal to be killed in vane. Many animals get hit and never get recovered and this could have been just another animal they figured was being added to that total. I would have done the same myself.

The tag gets cut by the party with the dead animal in their possession.

srupp
09-18-2008, 01:50 PM
absolutley correct..on both accounts...

steven

elkdom
09-18-2008, 02:15 PM
good for YOU, helping out the "newbee", hopefully he has learned something, the classroom CORE Exam is fine, as some of the test requirements information does remain for the new hunter to reflect on, IMO a "newbee" after copmletion of his CORE should have to be out on a number of daily "escorted" hunts with someone with several years hunting experience, licensed in BC to hunt by the MOE, before being able to "go it alone" for the sake of the animal and for the sake of the new hunters self esteem! just my 2 cents!!, kind of like the Graduated Drivers licensing requirements of recent years in BC. as for who cancels the tag ??, that would be who ever is in POSSESSION of the dead deer! as per the statutes of the WILDLIFE Act !

srupp
09-18-2008, 02:24 PM
elkdom..I usually take one or two newbies out each year..this was merely a new hunter who didnt have enough field experience to confidently track an animal..I dont know if game tracking is part of the CORE program???

Anyhow he seemed to be genuinly amazed at what was a relativly routine job at seeing what went on..I have to admit being surprised at the human prints..and the truck tire tracks..I was NOT expecting that

UNLESS some other DEER went and got a animal ambulance to get their buddy to medical help???:roll:...

Allen seemed to get off course each time a set of tracks were encountered..and I kept following in the same direction..and he didnt know what dried blood looked like..if it wasnt bright red..he just could seem to see it..

Yes I agree getting the license is just the ticket to the dance experience comes by DOING....

Oh well it was just a outing "trying" to help and in the process maybe give some training and teaching...its just the surprise ending....

I agree..you tag the game you have...

cheers

Steven

elkdom
09-18-2008, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=srupp;330502]elkdom..I usually take one or two newbies out each year..this was merely a new hunter who didnt have enough field experience to confidently track an animal..I dont know if game tracking is part of the CORE

UNLESS some other DEER went and got a animal ambulance to get their buddy to medical help???:roll:...

Strange things happen in the wilderness!! YES! lol

srupp
09-18-2008, 03:41 PM
yes very very strange grasshopper..

But again most "younger " guys just getting into hunting xbox ..nintendo...not many woods skills..and look in most deer camps not many youngesters......not much chance to gain exxperience except by doing..

Steven

bsa30-06
09-18-2008, 07:01 PM
He doesn't have to cut his tag,m the animal was never recovered...shame that someone stole his deer.

I agree with this!!

Deadeye
09-18-2008, 07:34 PM
UNLESS some other DEER went and got a animal ambulance to get their buddy to medical help???:roll:...With an injury like that, it would have been an air ambulance for sure though!:mrgreen:

As a hunting noob, I don't have the experience either but if that happened to me I'd look at it as part of the learning curve. Your buddy did the right thing asking a more experienced hunter for help. However, if I came across a wounded deer (or any animal - my version of PETA) I'd finish it off for sure. As for taking it myself - I'd certainly yield to the initial shooter but if I couldn't call them or hadn't heard the shot myself it'll fit in my freezer as well as in a scavenger's belly.

He DID leave the bush after all.

BTW, I like the idea of a hunting 'apprenticeship' (provided you have a good 'mentor' !!!!!)

And tags are technically based on possession, no ?

steepNdeep
09-18-2008, 07:44 PM
I wonder if the buck was dead at all?... Maybe they drove in, the deer heard the truck, got out of it's bed and they shot it. Walked up to it and then found the other bullet hole...

Tracking in an art in itself... I started out as a bowhunter and have spent hours looking for specs of blood. Makes tracking rifle shot animals easy. A great skill to teach them early! Good on ya!

srupp
09-18-2008, 07:49 PM
Deadeye..I agree with ALL you say also...and i have no quarrell with whoever garnered the buck..yes ALLen did leave the woods how was anyone to know...true enough..

My thoughts are the buck was most certainly dead..and it didnt look like there were additional shots at the bedding spot ie no spray or such...just blood and where the deer was field dressed...

My only comment was that the tracking was not a really really difficult one..and perhaps do able by the youngester..maybe lack of confidence..or definatly lack of experience..however as we went through the "process" finding wounded game Im sure something was passed along th the new hunter...tough lesson ..yes....but a needful one...

And again its very difficult for me to pass njusgement as hell I cant remember back to my first deer..ok I can but it was many campfires ago..and as I also said I dont know what the course now contains....I dont "believe " there is any field work??


It WAS good to show Allen some points and go through a process talking out loud so he could "hear " my thought process..hopefully learn...

Cheers

Steven

willy442
09-18-2008, 07:51 PM
I think if you draw blood you should cut your tag. Very few wounded animals will survive the oncoming winter wounded and if you take a shot that kills, now or in a few days its the same thing. You have killed your tag so I like to believe an ethical hunter would cut it or refrain from the shot in the first place. We used to have a rule in our guide area that if you draw blood, you cut your tag and pay the trophy fee to the government. I guess maybe some think it should be different for residents.:sad:

Avalanche123
09-18-2008, 08:00 PM
I think if you draw blood you should cut your tag. Very few wounded animals will survive the oncoming winter wounded and if you take a shot that kills, now or in a few days its the same thing. You have killed your tag so I like to believe an ethical hunter would cut it or refrain from the shot in the first place. We used to have a rule in our guide area that if you draw blood, you cut your tag and pay the trophy fee to the government. I guess maybe some think it should be different for residents.:sad:

I agree with this. You took the shot and wounded the animal or fatally wounded it. Its on your shoulders now. If everyone had to cut their tags then maybe only the best shot would be taken and if that "best shot" did not present itself, don't shoot. IMHO

srupp
09-18-2008, 08:20 PM
I wasnt there for the shot.He obviously was there and decided to take the shot, and the deer did not go far..so the hit was good..

I too guided and that was the rule for our camp also..you shot and drew blood..that species hunt was over..full fees were due..ie trophy fees and government fees...and if that was the last species for the client his hunt was over ..we often then went fishing or photography or Wells on a beer and bath run..

As for the average BC hunter Im not sure...I have only actually heard of two cases..and that was Paul two years ago when he and his DAD? and uncle went to the Caribou Mts on a spring grizzly LEH hunt and in their excitement they forgot some of the "freindly " advice on shooting distances on grizzlies..and let go at the bear perhaps too far away, well after a thorough and intensive search they concluded with distance travelled etc etc etc they would NOt be able to find the bear so Paul decided on his own to cut his tag and return home...this year they faired much better with his uncle harvesting a truly magnificant G bear..

On a second occasion a " friend" drew the coveted Kwatna bear tag and I accompanied him in so he didnt get killed..ummm not very woods wise..and going up a small feeder creek we spotted a huge G bear..and I told J to wait till I got the shotgun ready he blasted away..the bear DROPPED and then was up and headed for the trash..I waas surprised cuz J was shooting a .338 when i asked why he didnt wait I just got a "shrug" I mentioned I was surprised any G bear went far with a .338 when j shocked me with he had changed his mind and brought the .270 :eek:..so we backed out for a while and then went in after the bear..I even used my "electronic dog " retrieval system...it was raining hard..and after hours of searching nada..

We went back and I started making arrangements to get the pilot in to get us out as the hunt..J saw it very differently..he was quite upset..and sunsequently flew back in and tried to harvest a second bear (he did NOT cancel his tag) however he did not see any bears at all...

For the rest of my experience I have not seen residents cancell tags when shooting at game and unable to retrieve their animal..even when some sort of blood was found...and on several occasions it was by very experienced hunters who did a very thorough job at attempting retrieval of the wounded game....

I dont think the wildlife regulations speak to this issue??It leaves it up to the hunter in question as I believe your only required to tag the game you retrieve..so there is no implicit or expected regulation requiring one to " cut their tag " for animals shot at some evidence of a hit including blood..

I would not care to call them unethical...they ARE following the regulations...

As for the guide outfitters..it was something we had written into the agreement not a regulation from the Province..

Allen followed the rgulations in place.

Cheers

Steven

Gateholio
09-18-2008, 08:53 PM
Steve,I don't think that sort of "guideline" would apply here- Someone else came and walked off with his deer!:shock:

So the deer was recovered, just not by him!:tongue:

srupp
09-18-2008, 09:05 PM
hmmm good point lol

Steven

3kills
09-18-2008, 09:43 PM
good on u steven for tryin to help the newbie find his downed deer..and good on the newbie for lookin for help to get the deer...as for takin it i agree with not cuttin it unless u retrieve it...

lip_ripper00
09-18-2008, 10:24 PM
I think hunt is the biggest "Do over" sport their is, not my way, but I think it hppens a lot:icon_frow

2slow
09-18-2008, 10:29 PM
Now if you cut your tag on an unrecovered animal and you run into the co's on the way out how do you prove species and evidence of sex? Wonder what kind of can of worms that would open up?

threedhunter
09-18-2008, 10:56 PM
no evidence of animal, called precancilation, =fine, tag void, mayhap more.look at the back of your tags in your licence book. self explanitory.

elkdom
09-18-2008, 11:00 PM
Funniest dammed thing! " srupp " , within 4 hours of posting on your thread "Sherlock Bones", I was doing the same thing you did in your post, only it was a lost elk, solid hit, actually blew the elks heart in half, but elk dashed about 60 yards colapsed, in horrible tight undergrowth, and not a drop of blood to be found, the look on that guys face when I helped him find the elk, at least no one else found it, only 30 mins passsed from shot till found and recovered, he is also a "newbie" has his Mojo back! alls good! A very rewarding experience to help out some one new to the hunting world. not trying to steal your thread, just agreeing with your post 100%!

srupp
09-19-2008, 12:04 AM
threedhunter..I agrree with what your saying as with 2slow...

elkdom..theres never any shame on asking for help...and after one or two animals make it 100 or 200 or even 300 yards which is a looooong way you begin to develop a mental checklist to go through on what animals do when wounded and what different blood patterns and types of blood and even the animals stride and direction of travel..all tells part of a story..

I have never harvested a elk on having gone one time and they have a "reputation " of being hard to put down like a jacked up goat..

Elkdom congradulations on "paying it forward" and stepping up feels incredibly good when it works out..cheers


Steven

Mr. Dean
09-19-2008, 12:25 AM
Bad deal.

I cringe, thinking the day when one gets away from me (knock on wood/hollow head). It's comforting to know that at least this animal was put to use. I'm sure your friend will sleep better knowing this also.

Good to have folks that can be relied on when the going gets tuff - Kudos' :smile:

willy442
09-19-2008, 12:35 AM
Steve,I don't think that sort of "guideline" would apply here- Someone else came and walked off with his deer!:shock:

So the deer was recovered, just not by him!:tongue:

Gates; The fellow killed a deer, no matter if some one else found it, so cut the tag. After all your tag gives you the right to legally kill a Deer. Has this not taken Place?

As far as the CO if you were to say I cut my tag because I hit a Deer and lost him for whatever reason. I'm sure you would get a pat on the back, not a fine.

Mr. Dean
09-19-2008, 01:54 AM
The ethical drama :neutral:


IF this was my animal, I wouldn't cut my tag. Knowing that it was recovered and used would let me move on. A tag is already cut from the ones that hauled it... If not, then thats another persons problem.

IF the animal got lost......... time to pull out the knife.



But that's a personal choice and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do same. Legally, it isn't a requirement.

3kills
09-19-2008, 06:40 AM
Gates; The fellow killed a deer, no matter if some one else found it, so cut the tag. After all your tag gives you the right to legally kill a Deer. Has this not taken Place?

As far as the CO if you were to say I cut my tag because I hit a Deer and lost him for whatever reason. I'm sure you would get a pat on the back, not a fine.

so say ur drivin to ur favorite hunting area u hit a deer and it stumbles off and dies u cut ur tag?? u killed a deer..

Springer
09-19-2008, 06:46 AM
So Steve you never mentioned anything about drag marks to the vehicle?
I have lost 2 Deer ,both the biggest I have shot and lost and you saw the Muley that got away,the other was a Whitetail that i let sit for a half hour before pursuing him more,I find lots of blood on the trail and two big pools where he was laying but he still got up and headed out of Dodge never to be found.
I know i wouldn't be attaching a Blaze Orange sticky tag to my Deer because they never hung around long enough!

Avalanche123
09-19-2008, 07:11 AM
The ethical drama :neutral:
IF the animal got lost......... time to pull out the knife.
But that's a personal choice and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do same. Legally, it isn't a requirement.

These are my feelings too. Yep legally it isn't required. We each do what we feel is right.

Stone Sheep Steve
09-19-2008, 07:57 AM
So.....when Dana shot and wounded Mass'n'Trash last fall he should have cut his tag?? He found him a week or so later still chasing does.

If he cut his tag the first time he should not have been out chasing mulies a week later. Animals can be incredibly tough. I've heard stories of broadheads found in an animal and had healed over.

IMHO-eg-If someone shoots a goat and it tumbles into "oblivion" and the animal is obviously dead, then yes, one should cut their tag.

The people who should have cut their tag in srupp's situation are the ones who recovered the deer and had it in their possession....makes it a lot easier to explain when they are stopped by a CO.

SSS

srosscoj
09-19-2008, 08:12 AM
Is everyone absolutely certain that the Gut pile found and evidence of a kill was definately from the deer in question ? is there not a chance that the deer that srupps compadre shot is still out there.

I would not necessarilly cut my tag I would report the incident to the local CO and have him advise me as to what the proper procedure should be. maybe the hunter who found the deer has also been in contact with him.
Communication is paramount in any situation. Without it there is never truth.

Mr. Dean
09-19-2008, 09:49 AM
so say ur drivin to ur favorite hunting area u hit a deer and it stumbles off and dies u cut ur tag?? u killed a deer..

You're not permitted to claim road-kill. That's a fine-able offense and the CO is to be promptly notified. This scenerio is entirely different.


So.....when Dana shot and wounded Mass'n'Trash last fall he should have cut his tag?? He found him a week or so later still chasing does.

If he cut his tag the first time he should not have been out chasing mulies a week later. Animals can be incredibly tough. I've heard stories of broadheads found in an animal and had healed over.



SSS

All I'm stating is what *I* would do..... Dano is entitled to choose what *he* determines best.... Personal choice and all that. :wink:


Is everyone absolutely certain that the Gut pile found and evidence of a kill was definately from the deer in question ? is there not a chance that the deer that srupps compadre shot is still out there.

I would not necessarilly cut my tag I would report the incident to the local CO and have him advise me as to what the proper procedure should be. maybe the hunter who found the deer has also been in contact with him.
Communication is paramount in any situation. Without it there is never truth.

Regs. are pretty clear on this. Tag only needs cutting on the claiming of the animal. Your thoughts ring true however, a CO should be advised IMO. They may know of a once lost deer that's been found. :smile:

Gateholio
09-19-2008, 10:21 AM
]
Gates; The fellow killed a deer, no matter if some one else found it, so cut the tag.

We don't know if the other person saw the deer, finished it off and cut HIS tag. So there should be 2 cancelled tags for one deer? The guy in possesion of the deer should clearly have a cancelled tag before taking the deer into his possesion, so there would be 2 cancelled tags for this deer. If he did not cancel his tag (or never had one) then srupps friend is a victim of theft, and shouldn't be "punished" because of that.


After all your tag gives you the right to legally kill a Deer. Has this not taken Place?

From the evidence here I'd say that nobody knows if it has taken place or not. Yes, srupps friend may have killed a deer, but it's also possible that the other guy(s) found a still live deer, shot it and tagged it.


As far as the CO if you were to say I cut my tag because I hit a Deer and lost him for whatever reason. I'm sure you would get a pat on the back, not a fine

Maybe, but it's pretty clear reading the tags that "precancelling" is against the regulations..Actually, from a legal standpoint it sure seems that you are supposed to be standing over dead buck before cancelling tag. And you must cancel before touching animal. Pretty narrow wiggle room!


This situation isnn't black and white, although it's interesting. Reccomendation to contact a CO and ask for advice is a good one. I've heard of people having thier deer stolen by a bear and a CO issuing them another tag, (and the hunter goes and kills 2 deer for the price of one tag) so it's not inconceivable that a CO woudl tell them to not cancel the tag...

Ultimately, I'd ask myself what higher purpose does cancelling the tag serve in this situation?

srupp
09-19-2008, 10:43 AM
hmmm all pretty good points by all here..My involvement was helping a new young hunter that I had not met before..not that it makes any significant difference.. try and find his deer .......however..I did not ask or even THINK to ask what the lad did...nor was I asked for any advice along those lines..as to cancelling his tag..kinda hard now trying to decide what advice I would have given..as in the past I have done it both ways...talk about your 'situational ethics ":-|...

Right now I would have advised to NOT cut his tag and to seek advice from a CO...after all no deer was retrieved to place the tag with...

And since Allen got a hold of me I have no way of contacting him , nor do i want to "meddle" I wasnt asked for my oppinion and was given No oportunity to give any advice..and my advice is no more or less valid than conflicting opinions...

cheers

steven

willy442
09-19-2008, 08:33 PM
So.....when Dana shot and wounded Mass'n'Trash last fall he should have cut his tag?? He found him a week or so later still chasing does.

If he cut his tag the first time he should not have been out chasing mulies a week later. Animals can be incredibly tough. I've heard stories of broadheads found in an animal and had healed over.

IMHO-eg-If someone shoots a goat and it tumbles into "oblivion" and the animal is obviously dead, then yes, one should cut their tag.

The people who should have cut their tag in srupp's situation are the ones who recovered the deer and had it in their possession....makes it a lot easier to explain when they are stopped by a CO.

SSS

So what you are saying is it's OK to go out every weekend, if you are a new hunter or a bad shot and blast away at Deer or other animals and as long as you can't physically put claim to it you should just keep hunting.

I think a fellow like Dana, has enough experiance to determine where the Deer was hit and also the determination to keep on it's trail relentlessly until recovered. Which he proved. In the case here we are talking a newbie hunter, which is an entirely different situation. I still believe if you shoot an animal and wound it, bad enough that it is continuosly lieing down bleeding a tag should be cut.

Gates; in the case of the fellow picking up a Deer, his tag would have to be cut or he would be in possesion of illegal wildlife. Point being if the fellow that shot it was not positive some one picked it up he should cut his tag. If he found some one else had positively taken his Deer I agree, it is a different situation and due to this I would say don't cut your tag.
In the case of pre cutting a tag I fail to agree because once you cancel you are finished hunting to fill that tag. I fail to see how its pre cutting if you've wounded an animal.

Gateholio
09-19-2008, 09:48 PM
Here is what it says on the tag booklet:



Immediately upon killing a big game animal and before handling the animal, the-appropriate species license must be cancelled...

WARNING

improper cancellation can lead to prosecution

pre-cancellation, partial cancelation, over cancellation are all improper cancellation and render license null and void


In the case of pre cutting a tag I fail to agree because once you cancel you are finished hunting to fill that tag. I fail to see how its pre cutting if you've wounded an animal

The instructions say upon KILLING an animal, not wounding it. Even though there is blood present, I've seen lots of 3 legged bears and deer. Many people have skinned animals and found bullets or arrows under the hide or lodged in some part of the animal. Most of us have seen deer and moose and bears with horrific scars from fights or encounters with predators.

My buddy shot a distinctive looking cinnamon coloured bear one spring. It was in an area just behind his house, an area he and I both know very well. He hit it in the shoulder, the bear went down,then sprang up and took off into the thick cover.

He sat down and waited, then tracked bear. There was a good blood trail, and he found where it had bedded down, and bled quite a bit. Thinking it must be close e looked all around until dark. Came back the next day wiht his dog and spent the whole day looking, to no avail. Lots of blood, he was SURE it had to be dead....But he never found it.

Fast forward a year, and he is hunting with his brother. In almost the same spot, they see a distinctive cinnamon coloured bear. Exactly like the one last year!! BOOM!! His brother shoots the bear and down it goes.

They start to skin the bear and notice something weird. The bear has a huge amount of scar tissue starting on it's shoulder, then down the leg and finally out the pad, which is somewhat mangled.

Yup, it was the same bear. The bullet had hit at a weird angle (and was a pretty crappy bullet anyway) and deflected/shattered on the shoulder.

Lots of blood the previous year, too...

So do you cancel your tag if you don't have a dead animal? I guess there isn't any cut and dry answer. You hoot a goat and it goes over a cliff, never to be seen again, well, I think that goat is dead and your hunt is over.

Shoot a deer/bear and it runs away, you find some blood but no dead animal? Not so easy an answer, and there isnt' any support from the regulations to encourage you to cancel your tag, since it states KILLING not WOUNDING.

Anyway, from seeing animals that have survived great injury and must have bled quite a bit when inccuring these injuries, I'm not so quick to judge someone or encourage them to cancel tag or not.

Fortunately, I've only been in the position once when I shot at one animal where I think I hit it, but it was never recovered, and that was a bear. No hair, no blood, but I didn't know how I coudl have missed, it was such an easy shot. :wink:

Avalanche123
09-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Here is what it says on the tag booklet:



Immediately upon killing a big game animal and before handling the animal, the-appropriate species license must be cancelled...

WARNING

improper cancellation can lead to prosecution

pre-cancellation, partial cancelation, over cancellation are all improper cancellation and render license null and void


Hmmmm valid points. Any suggestion on what "over cancellation" is?

Gateholio
09-19-2008, 11:03 PM
Hmmmm valid points. Any suggestion on what "over cancellation" is?

I presume it means having too many notches cut out...Like 2 different regions or 2 differnt dates

A CO once pranked me and was looking at my HL when he got to the cancelled bear tag and said "Hey!! This is improperly cancelled!! You didn't cut out the antlerless notch!!"

He was real deadpan,a nd almost had we when I started to laugh...:grin:

daycort
09-19-2008, 11:16 PM
I get it now. I think I will go blast a 6 point every nite for the rest of the week and just give them away and let those peolpe cancel there tags.

I can't beleive this discusion is still going on. If blood is drawn and a good trail is shown cut your damn tag, it isn't good for 2.

willy442
09-20-2008, 02:06 AM
Here is what it says on the tag booklet:



Immediately upon killing a big game animal and before handling the animal, the-appropriate species license must be cancelled...

WARNING

improper cancellation can lead to prosecution

pre-cancellation, partial cancelation, over cancellation are all improper cancellation and render license null and void



The instructions say upon KILLING an animal, not wounding it. Even though there is blood present, I've seen lots of 3 legged bears and deer. Many people have skinned animals and found bullets or arrows under the hide or lodged in some part of the animal. Most of us have seen deer and moose and bears with horrific scars from fights or encounters with predators.

My buddy shot a distinctive looking cinnamon coloured bear one spring. It was in an area just behind his house, an area he and I both know very well. He hit it in the shoulder, the bear went down,then sprang up and took off into the thick cover.

He sat down and waited, then tracked bear. There was a good blood trail, and he found where it had bedded down, and bled quite a bit. Thinking it must be close e looked all around until dark. Came back the next day wiht his dog and spent the whole day looking, to no avail. Lots of blood, he was SURE it had to be dead....But he never found it.

Fast forward a year, and he is hunting with his brother. In almost the same spot, they see a distinctive cinnamon coloured bear. Exactly like the one last year!! BOOM!! His brother shoots the bear and down it goes.

They start to skin the bear and notice something weird. The bear has a huge amount of scar tissue starting on it's shoulder, then down the leg and finally out the pad, which is somewhat mangled.

Yup, it was the same bear. The bullet had hit at a weird angle (and was a pretty crappy bullet anyway) and deflected/shattered on the shoulder.

Lots of blood the previous year, too...

So do you cancel your tag if you don't have a dead animal? I guess there isn't any cut and dry answer. You hoot a goat and it goes over a cliff, never to be seen again, well, I think that goat is dead and your hunt is over.

Shoot a deer/bear and it runs away, you find some blood but no dead animal? Not so easy an answer, and there isnt' any support from the regulations to encourage you to cancel your tag, since it states KILLING not WOUNDING.

Anyway, from seeing animals that have survived great injury and must have bled quite a bit when inccuring these injuries, I'm not so quick to judge someone or encourage them to cancel tag or not.

Fortunately, I've only been in the position once when I shot at one animal where I think I hit it, but it was never recovered, and that was a bear. No hair, no blood, but I didn't know how I coudl have missed, it was such an easy shot. :wink:

Gates; Everyone will have a different view on this one. Do you realize that most European hunters will only shoot once and hit or miss they stop hunting. I guess it all boils down to being responsible for your actions when you pull the trigger. You hit it its yours, find it or not. CUT THE TAG unless you enjoy seeing 3 legged Bears and sick animals. We haven't even started on all the animals left behind that are not even tracked, let alone illegal kills left in the bush. If the draw blood ,cut your tag was law it my help some of this. I guess there is sportsmen and plain killers that both hunt.

mcrae
09-20-2008, 08:13 AM
I can't beleive this discusion is still going on. If blood is drawn and a good trail is shown cut your damn tag, it isn't good for 2.

Its not legal to cut the tag is what Gatehouse is trying to say. If you feel the need to "cut" the tag on a wounded or lost animal just quit hunting that species but don't cut the tag. Stay legal and avoid the hassle. Some of you guys seem to be implying that every guy out there is gonna blaze away cause he doesn't care I don't buy that. Stuff happens and every situation is gonna be different I wouldn't be so judgmental myself. Losing animals sucks but if you hunt long enough its more than likely going to happen. An animal that is wounded or lost is not wasted mother nature is the ultimate recycler:smile:.

daycort
09-20-2008, 08:45 AM
There is to many newbies that watch this forum that might figure its "okay" to wound an animal and "we will get the next one". I get and know the legalities of it all. But I think most people would have a heavy mind if they shot a killed another deer after losing one to a bad situation.

I myself have lost a big bear he just quit bleeding. I followed him for a long time, days infact. I cut my tag because I felt that the bear wouldn't make it. low and behold 2 days latter I spotted some ravens flying around and I found my bear.

1/2 slam
09-20-2008, 08:50 AM
Willy442

If you want to cut your tag go ahead. Good luck when the game warden checks you in 4 point season. I also don't care what the europeans do. As Gatehouse has tried to point out cutting your tag like that is ILLEGAL. You have no idea if you've killed an animal or not. I've cut broadheads and bullets form animals I've killed and they were doing fine.

As for the outfitters ending the hunt and collecting trophy fee's SHAKE YOUR HEAD. The reason they do that is so they can sell the hunt again. After all they only get so many tags.

In other words don't try and shove your ethics down other peoples throats.

1/2 slam
09-20-2008, 08:52 AM
Daycourt,

What complete and UTTER B@ll SH%T. You have no idea if the animal is dead. Look at Mass and trash that DANA shot.

Avalanche123
09-20-2008, 09:00 AM
There is to many newbies that watch this forum that might figure its "okay" to wound an animal and "we will get the next one". I get and know the legalities of it all. But I think most people would have a heavy mind if they shot a killed another deer after losing one to a bad situation.

I myself have lost a big bear he just quit bleeding. I followed him for a long time, days infact. I cut my tag because I felt that the bear wouldn't make it. low and behold 2 days latter I spotted some ravens flying around and I found my bear.

Daycort, I agree with you however if you are stopped on the way home with a cancelled tag and no animal to show for it, you are in hot water. Whate Gatehouse posted is pretty clear. I haven't had to cross this bridge yet however if I had, I would have cancelled my tag in good faith but I wouldn't have been legal.

As suggested, perhaps this regulation should be ammended to draw blood = cancelled tag.

daycort
09-20-2008, 09:00 AM
I know what it was dude. I did find the bear and it was about 4 miles from the last of the blood and the blood trail that I was on was very thick for along time. I was so sick that I just mortally wounded an animal that I figured cutting my tag was my choice and I did phone the CO's in town and he said do what you think is right, like he was to busy to talk to me.

And why can't anybody spell my naame right jeeesh.lol

daycort.

Avalanche123
09-20-2008, 09:04 AM
Willy442
In other words don't try and shove your ethics down other peoples throats.

I thought he was being particularly civil and I certainly don't think he was shoving anything down anybody's throat. You are just not liking what you are reading (his opinion).

daycort, I guess you didn't like the capital "D"? :)

daycort
09-20-2008, 09:07 AM
daycort, I guess you didn't like the capital "D"?

No its not that its the daycourt, spelling. Since the last 4 letters is my sons name. Ah you know the feeling when someone spells your name wrong...

Gateholio
09-20-2008, 09:16 AM
]
Gates; Everyone will have a different view on this one. Do you realize that most European hunters will only shoot once and hit or miss they stop hunting.

They also hunt at night in many European areas. Shoudl we embrace that tradition as well?



I guess it all boils down to being responsible for your actions when you pull the trigger. You hit it its yours, find it or not. CUT THE TAG unless you enjoy seeing 3 legged Bears and sick animals.

Nobody is suggesting they are HAPPY to see wounded animals, and yes, everyone should indeed be responsible for what happens when you pull the tirgger. However, I have pointed out situations where blood has been drawn, but the animal survives, and to cancel your tag is in contrast to what it states on the tag instructions.


We haven't even started on all the animals left behind that are not even tracked, let alone illegal kills left in the bush.

No, but that is another subject.


If the draw blood ,cut your tag was law it my help some of this. I guess there is sportsmen and plain killers that both hunt

The law coudl be changed although it woudl be virtually unenforcable. Still, it woudl at least clarify the issue..On the other hand, it might confuse it, too. :?:

Gateholio
09-20-2008, 09:17 AM
No its not that its the daycourt, spelling. Since the last 4 letters is my sons name. Ah you know the feeling when someone spells your name wrong...

How many versions of Gatehouse do you think I see?:biggrin:8-)

Avalanche123
09-20-2008, 09:27 AM
No its not that its the daycourt, spelling. Since the last 4 letters is my sons name. Ah you know the feeling when someone spells your name wrong...

Don't take it too personally. I hate it when my name is spelled wrong in more formal settings however on here, there are all kinds of grammatical/spelling/typo errors. (Most by me!:) )

Back track.....how would it confuse it GH? If you shoot and hit the animal, the tag is cut. (I am likely not thinking of all possible scenarios with this.)

BTW everyone, I am not saying this needs to be done so before you get all upset, this is just discussion.

Gateholio
09-20-2008, 09:37 AM
There is to many newbies that watch this forum that might figure its "okay" to wound an animal and "we will get the next one".

I sure hope that nobody takes that from this discussion. It's certianly not my intent.

All I am saying is that it may not be legal to cancel a tag after just finding blood, and that every situation is different-a goat taking a plunge off a cliff, a well hit deer with chunks of lung material found with copious amounts of blood, a moose with a bullet hole through one ear and a few drops of blood, dana wounding a deer last year and then finding it a week later alive and well, or when someone goes to collect his deer and finds a gutpile instead...

So different circumstances may call for different judgment calls- Like so many things in life and/or hunting, there is much grey and not so much black and white.



I myself have lost a big bear he just quit bleeding. I followed him for a long time, days infact. I cut my tag because I felt that the bear wouldn't make it. low and behold 2 days latter I spotted some ravens flying around and I found my bear.

We searched for the bear I lost until it grew dark that night. My buddy was out in the AM with his dog, and I joined him until dark the next day after I finished work. I went out again the next AM to see if there was something, anything that we had missed, but there was nothing. Only thing that kept us looking was that I was so sure of a hit, although there was no physical evidence of it. No ravens, either...:confused:

I didn't cancel my tag, although I had 2 bear tags and only shot one bear that year, anyway.

Gateholio
09-20-2008, 09:40 AM
Back track.....how would it confuse it GH? If you shoot and hit the animal, the tag is cut. (I am likely not thinking of all possible scenarios with this.)

.

See above post.. Do you cut your tag for one drop of blood? Do you cut it when someone else finds your deer first and cut's thier own tag? How about if you cut your tag and see the same deer a week later, like dana did? Is he allowed to shoot that deer now, since he cut his tag for it the week before?

We've got so many rules, so many regulations, so many different interpretations on ethics, what is rigth or wrong, etc...

Enough to make a guys head spin! :)

Gateholio
09-20-2008, 10:13 AM
.

As for the outfitters ending the hunt and collecting trophy fee's SHAKE YOUR HEAD. The reason they do that is so they can sell the hunt again. Ag=fter all they only get so many tags.

.

I actually think they do it for a few different reasons, and most of them seem valid.

They have a client who may or may not be familiar with being in the bush, or the animals they are shooting at and he may or may not be a good marksman. On the other hand they have a experienced guide who is a good judge of animal behaviour, shooitng, tracking etc (In a perfect world- I've sure heard some horror stories about some guides abilities):-P

The client has a limited time to kill the animals he came for, and he may be eager enough to attempt to stretch his shooting abilities if there is no consequenses for poor shooting.

Beig up front about wounding and making it clear the hunt will be OVER whether or not an animal is actually recovered should make clients into more diligent shooters. They may not get any BETTER at shooting, but they are more likely to shoot within thier limits.

If the tag is cancelled and fees paid to outfitter and governement, I think that would count as one toward thier quota, so I don't think they coudl sell that hunt again, unless it was a non quota animal, of course.

1/2 slam
09-20-2008, 10:21 AM
If the tag is cancelled and fees paid to outfitter and governement, I think that would count as one toward thier quota, so I don't think they coudl sell that hunt again, unless it was a non quota animal, of course.[/quote]

Gate,

They don't cancell the tag as it would be illegal as you pointed out. Their hunt for that species is over. They can then re sell the hunt. They do this ALL of the time

1/2 slam
09-20-2008, 10:31 AM
As suggested, perhaps this regulation should be ammended to draw blood = cancelled tag.[/quote]

What a STUPID idea. Many of us who have hunted for a long time and have taken a LOT of animals have found bullets and broadheads in perfectly healthy animals. BLOOD DOES NOT MEAN A DEAD ANIMAL. An animal at the end of the track does.

willy442
09-20-2008, 10:39 AM
Willy442

If you want to cut your tag go ahead. Good luck when the game warden checks you in 4 point season. I also don't care what the europeans do. As Gatehouse has tried to point out cutting your tag like that is ILLEGAL. You have no idea if you've killed an animal or not. I've cut broadheads and bullets form animals I've killed and they were doing fine.

As for the outfitters ending the hunt and collecting trophy fee's SHAKE YOUR HEAD. The reason they do that is so they can sell the hunt again. After all they only get so many tags.

In other words don't try and shove your ethics down other peoples throats.

1/2 Slam; No on is shoving anything down your throat. Your own ethics should be what are used here and if you choose to not cut your tag it would not surprize me and you are not alone in your way of thinking. I would suggest though that if you are cutting arrowheads and bullets out of animals, maybe there is a problem out there with wounding game.

As for it being illegal to cancel a tag, you and gates are both wrong. I can cancel my tag anytime I wish. It only becomes illegal if again go hunting for that species. I can tell from past experience that not a warden in the country would fine you for being a good sportsman and cancelling your tag after wounding an animal.
You should probably reread my post because what I said is if an animal was wounded we collect the GOVERNMENT trophy fee which belongs to you. We made nothing off of it.

1/2 slam
09-20-2008, 10:44 AM
Hold your breath that no game warden would charge you. Four point season, cancelled tag, no 4 point. Equals illegal.

willy442
09-20-2008, 10:45 AM
If the tag is cancelled and fees paid to outfitter and governement, I think that would count as one toward thier quota, so I don't think they coudl sell that hunt again, unless it was a non quota animal, of course.

Gate,

They don't cancell the tag as it would be illegal as you pointed out. Their hunt for that species is over. They can then re sell the hunt. They do this ALL of the time[/quote]

You are very wrong on this point a wounded animal is treated as a dead animal. The fees are collected so that the people of B.C. have been renumerated as they should be. I have no idea where you gather your info but you should improve your source before posting such trash. Gatehouse is totally right in his post.

willy442
09-20-2008, 10:49 AM
Hold your breath that no game warden would charge you. Four point season, cancelled tag, no 4 point. Equals illegal.

ARE YOU MISSING THE FACT THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WOUNDING GAME? Secondly we are talking about being decent sportsmen and hunters and accepting responsability for our poor shots and mistakes, show me the warden that would write a ticket and let it go before a Judge.

1/2 slam
09-20-2008, 11:06 AM
No I'm not missing the point. It appears that you are. Drawing blood does not mean a dead animal PERIOD. As I said earlier go ahead and cut your tag.

Avalanche123
09-20-2008, 11:38 AM
As suggested, perhaps this regulation should be ammended to draw blood = cancelled tag.

What a STUPID idea. Many of us who have hunted for a long time and have taken a LOT of animals have found bullets and broadheads in perfectly healthy animals. BLOOD DOES NOT MEAN A DEAD ANIMAL. An animal at the end of the track does.[/quote]

and from another one of your recent posts:
Why is it that some people here are so STUPID. The Mulroney PC party has nothing to do with todays Conservitive Party of Canada.

I guess you like using the word STUPID......Cap Locks to go with it both times....

Anyway there are drawbacks however I still think the idea has merit worth considering.

Avalanche123
09-20-2008, 11:39 AM
We've got so many rules, so many regulations, so many different interpretations on ethics, what is rigth or wrong, etc...

Enough to make a guys head spin! :)

Try and come here and go fishing! :) LOL

daycort
09-20-2008, 01:13 PM
Hey Gates,

Not judging ya at all. I just told my bear story because of another stand point. I know ya have good ehtics, thats why I extended that offer to ya the other day. And the offer still stands. I drink Bud, Coors light, and several other types of beer.... lol.

Av123,

didn't take the name missprint personal at all, it is just funny on how many different spellings there is. My given name is way worse..

Back on track...It is clear different circs may occur in the field. Maybe it should be up to the discretion of the hunter on tag cancelation.

Gateholio
09-20-2008, 02:42 PM
[quote=daycort;331387]Hey Gates,

Not judging ya at all. I just told my bear story because of another stand point. I know ya have good ehtics, thats why I extended that offer to ya the other day.



Yes, I know- Just telling my story too :)

..


Back on track...It is clear different circs may occur in the field. Maybe it should be up to the discretion of the hunter on tag cancelation

I tend to agree. I also think that there are some "guidelines" that new and old hunters could follow, to help them make the correct decision, depending on those circumstances...Which is probably why we blah blah blah about stuff liek this on the intraweb. ;)

srupp
09-20-2008, 02:52 PM
:eek:....man...a simple boy meets Buck..boy shoots buck...boy looses buck....boy finds help...boy finds bucks bed ....and boy loses buck again..and 1,700 views..DURING HUNTING SEASON..cant be too many guys out hunting lol...

cheers

Steven