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Bow Walker
06-01-2008, 09:26 PM
This is assuming you don't have a rangefinder with built-in angle compensation...

How's your "off-the-cuff" angle/yardage guessing compensation when bowhunting? Guesstimating yardage is hard enough at times, but throw in a steep upward or downward angled shot and most shooters are stumped.

In the latest issue of Bowhunter magazine - "Gear Special 2008" - there is a very interesting article by a guy named Jack Frost (no kidding!). The article is titled "Ranging Ups & Downs". It highlites a few of the newer Angle Compensating Rangefinders. But. It also provides a tip/trick for those without ARC Rangefinders.

Basically it goes something like this...(or you can buy the magazine for yourself)...
In 1990 a fellow by the name of Greg Piesinger (I don't make these names up - honest) used calculus formulae to generate a table of "hit windows" for various arrow speeds and angle on incline, whether up or down.

Well those formulae and tables were pretty complicated for use in the field so good ole Greg analyzed them and came up with his own table. There are small discrepancies (according to the article) but all that is really necessary to hit the "window of opportunity" ie. the kill zone, was to determine the horizontal distance and apply a bit of math.

Here are the results of Greg's deductions.

If the upward or downward angle is...

60-degree angle: divide the line of sight distance by 2

50-degree angle: divide the line of sight distance by 1.5

45-degree angle: divide the line of sight distance by 1.4

40-degree angle: divide the line of sight distance by 1.3

35-degree angle: divide the line of sight distance by 1.2

25-degree angle: divide the line of sight distance by 1.1

less than 20 degrees: hold an inch below

Obviously estimating the angle of incline is every bit as important as estimating the horizontal yardage for this to work.

So brush up on your math skills or pack along a calculator and get out there in them thar steep hills and "harvest" something!

Ron.C
06-02-2008, 08:48 AM
Last Christmas I got a bushnell trophy ARC Rangefinder which calculates shot angle and distance for you. Here is my take. If you are a bowhunter who hunts just deer/elk, you don't need to waste your money on one. If you want to hunt goat/sheep with your bow, sure you may get into a spot where you will need to shoot extremely steep "near verticle" at longer ranges I've spent alot of time with this rangefinder shooting all kinds of ranges and shot angles that I figured I might encounter when bowhunting elk/deer, and I can honestly say the old standby of "shooting the horizontal distance" will put you in the kill zone every time and keep you accurate within 2-3 yards. I just think that most of us "myself included" have enough difficulty accuratey estimating range in the heat of the moment when a shot presents itself, that adding another variable like trying to guess the angle will just add more unescesarry pressure to the situation.

Bow Walker
06-02-2008, 05:24 PM
Exactly Ron. Who the heck has time to do a bunch of math when a shooter walks within range? I had a bit of a chuckle when I read the article and thought I'd post up to see what everyone else thought.

I doubt that I'd be dividing 28 degrees by 1.18 before drawing and aiming. :roll:

huntwriter
06-03-2008, 05:50 PM
Most of my bowhunting is done from treestands. The day I set the stand up I pre measure the distances to the spot where the deer will show up in all my shooting lanes and then whatever compensation for the stand height added. Usually my stands are around 10 to 15 feet of the ground, which generally makes out less than a 45-degree angle.

Bow Walker
06-03-2008, 07:57 PM
I've only had experience shooting steep angles at 3D shoots. Most of the targets weren't over 30 yds., making them fairly easy to figure out how hit the kill zone.

That being said, it's a damned good idea to get out there and practice, practice, and practice some more.

Eagle1
06-03-2008, 08:14 PM
who the heck has a inclanation meter{ spelling, measureing angles } not to many of us, maybe if we're building a road. Most of the time there isn't much time for a shot let alone time to judge the hill angle then range distance then do the math for that shot, most do better to just judge the shot, we have a hard enough time judging distance, trow in trying to judge hill angle to,the game will die of old age, I'm not good at math.
The best thing is to get out and shoot up hill and down hill, 3 - D shoots, stump shoot, what ever ,practice,practice,practice.

J_T
06-04-2008, 10:22 AM
Most of my bowhunting is done from treestands. The day I set the stand up I pre measure the distances to the spot where the deer will show up in all my shooting lanes and then whatever compensation for the stand height added. Usually my stands are around 10 to 15 feet of the ground, which generally makes out less than a 45-degree angle. Exactly, improve your chances by being in the tree, but predict the window of opportunity and know ahead of time the horizontal distance. Keep your stand low 12 - 16 feet to maximize the window of opportunity on the animal. Sometimes I'll dangle a little flagging, or a branch at yardage as a subtle reminder to myself. Keep the distance to your target close!!

Wildman
06-04-2008, 01:19 PM
who the heck has a inclanation meter{ spelling, measureing angles } not to many of us, maybe if we're building a road. Most of the time there isn't much time for a shot let alone time to judge the hill angle then range distance then do the math for that shot, most do better to just judge the shot, we have a hard enough time judging distance, trow in trying to judge hill angle to,the game will die of old age, I'm not good at math.
The best thing is to get out and shoot up hill and down hill, 3 - D shoots, stump shoot, what ever ,practice,practice,practice.

I carry a clinometer....$100 bucks and worth it.

huntwriter
06-04-2008, 03:40 PM
Sometimes I'll dangle a little flagging, or a branch at yardage as a subtle reminder to myself. Keep the distance to your target close!!

That is exactly what I do.
I stick a little square, about 1" x 1") of red flagging tape on a tree, brush or scent station as distance markers.
One square means 15 yards (hold dead on from zero out to 20 yards*), 2 squares 20 yards (hold dead on from 20 out to 25 my maximum self imposed distance*). Where possible I always make a scent station, which distracts and holds the deer just long enough to get a good shot at an unsuspecting animal.

*Aiming dean on at the distances mentioned above are for my bow set up and may differ for other bow set ups.

boxhitch
07-07-2011, 05:51 AM
old but true

45 deg is not unusual in rough country.
28 yds / 1.4 = 20 yd pin, not 30
45 yds / 1.5 = 30, quite do-able

A good compass has a inclineometer built in.

Krico
07-07-2011, 07:08 AM
If these formulas are correct (or close enough) for determining horizontal distance, they should be useful for rifle hunters too, no?

THE BEAST
07-07-2011, 08:12 AM
I shoot alot of 3D and in my experience with angle shooting I don't do the math i just guess how much to take off and it works good.

p.s: bow walker are you going to the provincials in williams lake on the weeked tell your friends to come and everyone you know to come, hoping for a good turn out.

THE BEAST (michael)

Bow Walker
07-07-2011, 09:00 AM
Micheal, my brother will be there (with a few buddies) his name is Bow Sitter (Ron). I can't make it this year.

The Hermit
07-07-2011, 09:10 AM
My neighbors think I'm nuts... shooting from the roof at the targets in my back yard! ;-0

Bow Walker
07-07-2011, 09:52 AM
Just be glad that those "old, retired, yuppies" don't report you!

BTFever
07-07-2011, 09:57 AM
There's nothing like being prepared. I had an instructor that would say "failure to prepare means prepare to fail" He said that everyday!, and I agree. If you are in a new area that youve never hunted before sure the ARC on a rangfinder will be handy. Most of us, however, spend time scouting and setting up stands any ways why not drag a target out with you and practice from your stand... nows the time to do it!.

I have an inclinometer on my compass. I find thats really handy, and even more so now that I can use it with greater accuracy to determain distance.

I found this thread really insightfull and it shure is easier than doing triganometry or Pythagorian equations... Id fall asleep faster if I had to bother with that.

I also like using the markers to indicate my hunting range. I find its easier to hold my shot if the animal is outside my marked zone, than attempting a risky long shot thinking its closer than wat it is. Markers are a great idea and they give you the confidence to send your arrow knowing its going to hit the target.


FAILURE TO PREPARE MEANS PREPARE TO FAIL

Bowzone_Mikey
07-07-2011, 10:07 AM
My neighbors think I'm nuts... shooting from the roof at the targets in my back yard! ;-0

My neighbors think its hilarious that I set a tree stand up in my yard and i empty my quiver into a foam target

Bow Walker
07-07-2011, 10:16 AM
I once had a shot at a nice meaty doe out at 33 yards. She was also at an upward angle of about 20 degrees - which made the shot more like 45 yards. I didn't have a rangefinder with ARC, or an inclinometer - just my "savvy", which turned out to be pretty good - at least it was better than my shooting form.

My shot sailed past in front of her brisket missing by about 4 inches. A clean miss. "Good line, though" (how many times have you heard that at a 3D?) a foot to the left and I'd have punctured her heart. I dropped my bow-hand too soon. I was trying to watch the arrow, rather than paying attention to shooting form. Such is life.......

My next "purchase" will be a rangefinder with ARC.

Grantmac
07-07-2011, 03:47 PM
I once had a shot at a nice meaty doe out at 33 yards. She was also at an upward angle of about 20 degrees - which made the shot more like 45 yards. I didn't have a rangefinder with ARC, or an inclinometer - just my "savvy", which turned out to be pretty good - at least it was better than my shooting form.

My shot sailed past in front of her brisket missing by about 4 inches. A clean miss. "Good line, though" (how many times have you heard that at a 3D?) a foot to the left and I'd have punctured her heart. I dropped my bow-hand too soon. I was trying to watch the arrow, rather than paying attention to shooting form. Such is life.......

My next "purchase" will be a rangefinder with ARC.

Wouldn't that make the shot more like 27yds?

Dividing by 1.2 and all.....

-Grant

Bowzone_Mikey
07-07-2011, 06:41 PM
Wouldn't that make the shot more like 27yds?

Dividing by 1.2 and all.....

-Grant

shooting down you drop yards ....shooting up hill you add yards evidently

dave*
07-07-2011, 07:08 PM
The serious field archery guys will use a "cut chart"

http://www.getoat.com/page6.htm

I have a rough cut chart memorized in my head for shooting 3D as distances are estimated and I believe inclinometers would be considered a ranging device so anlge is guestimated by the SWAG method (Scientific wild a$$ guess). I use that as a third method to guesstimate my uphill downhill shots.

( you can pick up a cheap inclinometer from anywhere that sells back country ski gear , part of your avalanche kit)

greybark
07-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Wouldn't that make the shot more like 27yds?

Dividing by 1.2 and all.....

-Grant

Grant is correct !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grantmac
07-07-2011, 09:28 PM
shooting down you drop yards ....shooting up hill you add yards evidently

Gravity only acts along the horizontal distance that your arrow travels, therefore you cut both uphill and down.
If you want to split hairs then you cut slightly less for downhill shots as the arrow retains energy a little better. For our purposes its the same.

Quiz: Your 15 feet up your treestand and a deer walks by 10 feet from the base of the tree, which distance do you shoot it for?

-Grant

Bowzone_Mikey
07-07-2011, 09:59 PM
I was being sarcastic as a dig at BW ....

by the way I shoot yer deer for 72 yards ;)

Bow Walker
07-08-2011, 10:39 AM
shooting down you drop yards ....shooting up hill you add yards evidently
BZM has a kinda sarcastic sense of humor - some call it dry. Either way, he's only poking fun at me - yet again...

Grant and greybark are right and I am mistaken. Whatever the formulas, or the adjustments I missed that nice chubby deer. Another lesson learned in my ongoing quest to be a legend in my own mind.................

Grantmac
07-08-2011, 06:09 PM
BZM has a kinda sarcastic sense of humor - some call it dry. Either way, he's only poking fun at me - yet again...

Grant and greybark are right and I am mistaken. Whatever the formulas, or the adjustments I missed that nice chubby deer. Another lesson learned in my ongoing quest to be a legend in my own mind.................

Dry works for me.
At my level of shooting I rarely cut for distance unless its a major grade, then again I mostly shoot NFAA Trad which requires you to gap shoot and those gaps don't change much with inclination.

-Grant

J_T
07-08-2011, 06:19 PM
My neighbors think I'm nuts... shooting from the roof at the targets in my back yard! ;-0 I thought that was because you finally had them over for dinner and they got to meet the real you and hear you pontificate about the benefits of the hunt (yawn). You sure it's about the archery? Or just being on the roof......

greybark
07-13-2011, 10:24 PM
Gravity only acts along the horizontal distance that your arrow travels, therefore you cut both uphill and down.
If you want to split hairs then you cut slightly less for downhill shots as the arrow retains energy a little better. For our purposes its the same.

Quiz: Your 15 feet up your treestand and a deer walks by 10 feet from the base of the tree, which distance do you shoot it for?

-Grant
You don`t arrow it as it is impossible to hit BOTH lungs , Unethical and a very poor shot location as the distance from the Spine and 4 inches in from the hide is only 2-3 inches ........

J_T
07-14-2011, 05:17 AM
Greybark does provide something to think about. But it's awful tough to let one walk at this yardage. I lost a nice buck taken at those distances. I just didn't get enough of the vitals. Placed the shot right where I wanted it though. The only option here is if they turn 1/4 away and you can aim for the heart. Think middle of the body, rather than the entry location. If you are 15 feet up and the animal is 10 feet away, it's a 3 yard shot. Pretty close. Nice to watch deer in the wild at that close range.

Ruger4
07-14-2011, 06:06 AM
I'd like to play but my Leupold Vendetta does all the math for me now...;-)

willyqbc
07-14-2011, 05:51 PM
If you are 15 feet up and the animal is 10 feet away, it's a 3 yard shot

Just to add something else to think about......that deer you need to shoot for 3 yards.....do you know what pin/sight mark to use on your bow???

Here's a hint....it isn't your 20!!!

Trad guys can disregard this part of the scenario!!

Chris

TheProvider
07-14-2011, 07:28 PM
its your 40 well atleast my old bow was a 5yrd shot was dead on with my 40yrd pin

Bow Walker
07-14-2011, 08:39 PM
Just to add something else to think about......that deer you need to shoot for 3 yards.....do you know what pin/sight mark to use on your bow???

Here's a hint....it isn't your 20!!!

Trad guys can disregard this part of the scenario!!

Chris

Had a scenario at the last Nanaimo 3D I was at. Standing on a bridge shooting pretty much straight down at an alligator. Had to use the 70+ yrd pin to get the booger.

Tip of the arrow to the alligator's back was about 5 yards. The 'gator was placed about 2 yards from the bridge.

Ruger4
07-15-2011, 12:58 PM
and the majority of shooters walk up and say , oh this is a gimme , and take a 5 or a miss , practice at 5 yards , you'll be surprised what pin you'll be using from now on at that range
Chris[/QUOTE]

Grantmac
07-15-2011, 02:06 PM
Just to add something else to think about......that deer you need to shoot for 3 yards.....do you know what pin/sight mark to use on your bow???

Here's a hint....it isn't your 20!!!

Trad guys can disregard this part of the scenario!!

Chris

5m crawl or 2" gap if I'm not stringwalking.

-Grant

Bow Walker
07-15-2011, 05:12 PM
Huh?!?

That's way too technical for a simple guy like me.........

Grantmac
07-15-2011, 09:33 PM
Huh?!?

That's way too technical for a simple guy like me.........

Actually its really simple:
If I'm gap shooting then I put the tip of the arrow about 2" below where I want to hit.

Stringwalking is even simpler:
The closer I get to the target the further I slide my fingers from the nock of the arrow. 45m I touch the nock, 35m is about 3-4mm down and so on. Then I just place the arrow tip on the target like a pin and execute the shot.
Where this gets nice and simple is that because I'm sighting basically directly along the arrow I don't need to do any mental gymnastics for what distance to shoot: the closer I get the further down I slide.

-Grant

Bow Walker
07-16-2011, 08:38 AM
Thanks for that.

That's the best explanation of String Walking that I've heard.

Islander
07-16-2011, 08:57 AM
Is stringwalking legal at 3D shoots?

Bow Walker
07-16-2011, 09:03 AM
I've found that (on the Island, at least) string walking is accepted - or at least it is not prohibited. No one really talks about it much at all. It's never been outlawed at the meetings prior to starting the shoots, anyway.

Does that make it legal? Your guess is as goos as mine...

Bowzone_Mikey
07-16-2011, 09:19 AM
Is stringwalking legal at 3D shoots?


technically no as per FCA rule 11.19.3 (classes defined) basically it states in trad classes , String and Face walking is prohibited as they are a sighting tool.

that said ... target framing on multi pin sights is easy to do , while technically illegal ... hard to prove that you are doing it.

It is illegal to move open open class sights once you have drawn the bow once as its easy to use your up/down/side pin as a ranging device as well

http://www.fca.ca/images/stories/FCA/Rules/FCARules201026June2010_v1.5.pdf

greybark
07-16-2011, 08:32 PM
Hey Islander , String Walking was watched for and prohibited at several of the Summer Games I attended ......
Cheers

Islander
07-17-2011, 09:36 AM
Actually I knew it was prohibited....I was just testing these guys. When we hosted the Games in Nanaimo a few years ago it was also watched for. I knew a fellow years ago who got kicked out of his club and was not allowed to enter 3D shoots until he quit stringwalking. He wouldn't quit and we haven't seen him since.

Grantmac
07-17-2011, 04:32 PM
I shoot RU for 3D and barebow for FITA because the equipment is the same. When I shoot NFAA in the US I follow Trad rules which do not permit string/face walking.
Recurve Un-Aided - RU(m/f) or RU(m) & RU(f) [FITA “Barebow” division]
1. A recurve or longbow may be used. Shoot-through risers are not allowed.
2. The bow must be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.
3. No sighting device or markings, protrusions, are allowed and there must be no markings on the bow or on the bowstring
that could be of use in aiming. Multi-coloured risers and trademarks on the inside of the limbs are allowed.
4. An arrow rest, which can be adjustable, a moveable pressure button, pressure point or arrow plate may all be used on
the bow provided they are not electric or electronic and do not offer any additional aid in aiming. The pressure point
may not be placed any further back than 2 cm (inside) from the throat of the handle (pivot point of the bow).
5. No draw check device is allowed.
6. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts will not exceed 9.3 mm; the points (heads) for these arrows may have a
maximum diameter of 9.4 mm. All arrows of every athlete must be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the
shaft. All arrows used at any end will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.
Arrows shall be identical in length, weight and colour, except for normal wear.
7. No stabilizers are allowed and the unbraced bow complete with permitted accessories must be capable of passing
through a hole or ring with a 12.2 cm. inside diameter +/- 0.5 mm. Torque flight compensators fitted as part of the
bow are permitted provided that they do not also have stabilizers. Weight(s) may be added to the lower part of the
riser. All weights, regardless of shape, must mount directly to the riser without rods, extensions, angular mounting
connections or shock-absorbing devices.
8. Face and string walking is permitted.
9. The string may be multi-coloured and may have a centre serving and a single nocking point. If two nock locators are
used for the nocking point, the distance between them should be just enough to hold the arrow nock. String servings
must not end within the athlete’s vision at full draw. No lip or nose marks are permitted on the string.
10. Finger protection in the form of finger stalls or tips, gloves, or shooting tab or tape (plaster) to draw, hold back and
release the string is permitted. A separator between the fingers to prevent pinching the arrow is permitted.
11. An ordinary glove, mitten or similar item may be worn on the bow hand but must not be attached to the grip. The finger
protection must not incorporate any device to hold, draw and release the string. An anchor plate or similar device
attached to the finger
protection (tab) for the purpose of anchoring is not permitted.

-Grant

Islander
07-18-2011, 10:48 AM
Grant....I stand corrected...thanks for pointing that out to me. I don"t understand the difference between Recurve unaided and barebow.

Bowzone_Mikey
07-18-2011, 11:22 AM
Grant .. thanks for pointing that out to me .....

so the only differance I see between Trad and RU ... is that RU allows for a rest other than the shelf and the arrows have to be wood in Trad ... is that about right

Grantmac
07-18-2011, 12:02 PM
Grant....I stand corrected...thanks for pointing that out to me. I dont understand the difference between Recurve unaided and barebow.

Under the FCA they are basically the same category for equipment and technique, but RU is for 3D only. Barebow is a recognized category for field, indoor and outdoor whereas all of the other trad classes aren't. They can shoot under barebow rules but really won't be competitive.


[INDENT]Grant .. thanks for pointing that out to me .....

so the only differance I see between Trad and RU ... is that RU allows for a rest other than the shelf and the arrows have to be wood in Trad ... is that about right

I'm not up to speed on the Trad rules under the FCA. If wood shafts are required then I've never seen it enforced on the Island. Then again everyone is also shooting bows cut way past center which is also counter to the rules.

I shot RU at the Hell-Hole with the impression they were going to follow FCA rules. At the registration the RU rules posted said no stringwalking. Fortunately I had a good tune to do either as I have to shoot gap in the US (NFAA trad), unfortunately I got a horrible virus the first day and barely made it through both days of shooting.
I will bring a copy of the FCA RU rules with me in the future though.

-Grant

Bowzone_Mikey
07-18-2011, 02:15 PM
probally a good bet .... as most clubs even with a judge dont know that rule .... I certainly know that I was ignorant to it ...

Grantmac
07-18-2011, 03:27 PM
Any time you are exploring the far reaches of the rule book its best to bring the pertinent sections along ;)
Stringwalking has some tuning challenges and really isn't suited to most traditional hunting, two reasons why you just don't see a lot of it over here. I like it; if I judge the distance well its is extremely accurate, which is why it's the dominant technique for Field and outdoor.

-Grant