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Eichelherr
11-29-2007, 02:00 AM
Before I graduated 2 years ago from highschool in Port coquitlam, I was shown Micheal Moore's film "Bowling for Columbine" a total of 6 or 7 times in 2 years of highschool. For those of you who havent watched it, Micheal Moore gleefully makes use of the Columbine tradgedy, to try and convince his audience that guns are only owned by rednecks and need to be seized. In none of the times that I was forced to watch this was there ever a rebuttal offerred, and NEVER was gun control part of any cirriculum in which the movie was shown. It should come as no surprise that virtually everyone, myself included walked out of class angry agaisnt all gun owners and Mr. Heston (head of NRA). I know this isnt happening just in my school, and I am very afraid that tomorrow's voters will not acknowledge our rights to legally own guns:-(. My questions to you are:

1- What are your thoughts on this matter?
2- Can anything be done about this?
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Steeleco
11-29-2007, 09:50 AM
It's just one opinion, and in lots of cases, no amount of logic will change that opinion. It's not that we shouldn't try, just don't worry too much if it doesn't work.

horshur
11-29-2007, 10:11 AM
Before I graduated 2 years ago from highschool in Port coquitlam, I was shown Micheal Moore's film "Bowling for Columbine" a total of 6 or 7 times in 2 years of highschool. For those of you who havent watched it, Micheal Moore gleefully makes use of the Columbine tradgedy, to try and convince his audience that guns are only owned by rednecks and need to be seized. In none of the times that I was forced to watch this was there ever a rebuttal offerred, and NEVER was gun control part of any cirriculum in which the movie was shown. It should come as no surprise that virtually everyone, myself included walked out of class angry agaisnt all gun owners and Mr. Heston (head of NRA). I know this isnt happening just in my school, and I am very afraid that tomorrow's voters will not acknowledge our rights to legally own guns:-(. My questions to you are:

1- What are your thoughts on this matter?
2- Can anything be done about this?


Yeh they are showing the Gore movie also--same shit different pile.
I know the local grade twelve science class spent a day watching "Ice Age" you know the cartoon with the sabre tooth tiger and the mastodon and the sloth.A very relevant documentary in the class of Moore and Gore--Tax dollars at work.

Phreddy
11-29-2007, 10:37 AM
Fish & game clubs can, and should be a major part of the antidotal solution to the fear mongering anti-gun lobby.
One of the best initiatives I've seen, so far, was the effort of the Kelowna Fish & Game Club. One weekend, toward the end of October, they invited
more than 200 guests from the community including kids, moms, dads, grandparents, and Big Brothers to their annual Fall Shoot. MAny of these folks have never seen a firearm close-up, and everyone was given an opportunity to take a shot under close supervision.
The efforts went a long way in defeating the sharp toothed, bloody handed, knuckle dragging image many in the community have of our legitimate hunting/shooting brothers.
The other real nice part is that the proceeds from the initiative went to the club's Junior Program.
Hats off to Kelowna F&G!
if you want the full story, it's in the BCWF Newsletter for November.

Browningmirage
11-29-2007, 10:41 AM
It's just one opinion, and in lots of cases, no amount of logic will change that opinion. It's not that we shouldn't try, just don't worry too much if it doesn't work.

I think the issue is being missed...

The issue here is that young minds (the people who will decide the future of the country) are being shown movies about how guns are bad, and therefore our rights in the future will be in the hands of a bunch of misinformed gun haters (more so than now)

I sat through the whole thing about 4 times in my high school career. Every time i made sure to state loudly and pointedly that this was all bogus, that it is untrue, and that Michael Moore is a complete and utter idiot for calling his PROPAGANDA a documentary.

Michael Moore tries his damndest (even pulls out his NRA membership card) to show that he understands our side, but the guy is an idiot.

Seems to think he has the answer to all lifes problems...but the guy is a total utter moron.

My recommendation is that these movies be followed by a discussion on both sides of the argument, not just his. Also, for any movie rated above PG, there should be parental consent (not just for content, but for the bullsh*t propaganda)

Please note that i try and not stoop to using words like moron (not once in any of my posts), but M.Moore deserves everything he gets

As for the teachers. If you hear of this happening in your school...teachers are not allowed to put their political views into the kids. You can have their job, (or at the very least a severe reprimand). People dont look kindly at the "Minds of the nation" instilling propaganda into youth. We did it at my old school after things got out of hand. Dont hesitate to do it at yours.

brian
11-29-2007, 11:06 AM
Michael Moore is the Bill O'Reilly of the left, both are savy, manipulative, idealogical dumb ass's. I'm sorry to see his films are used as a part of a curriculum without any form of counter point.

308BAR
11-29-2007, 11:35 AM
Write a letter to the school district and school that are showing these political viewed one sided movies. That these are not appropriate materials to show in class because they are NOT ministry approved and that they are not presenting both sides of the story. IMO you cannot be a teacher without being objective or able to receive some criticism about what is being taught.

Tarp Man
11-29-2007, 11:54 AM
One counter swing to this is the efforts of the Chilliwack Fish and Game (Club) Protective Association. They have been running a outdoor skills youth camp for the last 4 years. This gives up to 20 young people ages 12-16? the opportunity to 1. learn basic outdoor skills and safety, 2. take the CORE and PAL programs in a class setting with their peers, 3. spend time on the rifle range learning safe handling skills, basic shooting skills and give them the opportunity to fire a lot of rounds to develop marksmanship. It is the only camp of its kind in B.C. I also know that they have a waiting list every year if someone doesn't show. The teaching and supervision is provided by volunteers from the club and community, with the PAL and CORE courses taught by certified instructors.

Temporary Hi-jack

Events like this go a long way to starting the next generation off right. However, this is in jeopardy. The chairperson for the program has resigned after four years. The club is looking for someone to take over his role. It is a significant time commitment, but there are many volunteers already involved. Please consider this if you have the time and are a Member of the Chilliwack Fish and Game Club. If you want to volunteer, then contact the club. You can never have enough volunteers.

BCBear
11-29-2007, 12:16 PM
As for the teachers. If you hear of this happening in your school...teachers are not allowed to put their political views into the kids. You can have their job, (or at the very least a severe reprimand). People dont look kindly at the "Minds of the nation" instilling propaganda into youth. We did it at my old school after things got out of hand. Dont hesitate to do it at yours.

Blame the teacher:roll: There are more layers to showing controversial documentaries than the obvious 'anti' or 'climate change' perspectives. These movies are generally shown in order to generate discussion and promote critical thinking skills (something that is mandated in the BC curriculum).

Mr. Dean
11-29-2007, 12:26 PM
One counter swing to this is the efforts of the Chilliwack Fish and Game (Club) Protective Association. They have been running a outdoor skills youth camp for the last 4 years. This gives up to 20 young people ages 12-16? the opportunity to 1. learn basic outdoor skills and safety, 2. take the CORE and PAL programs in a class setting with their peers, 3. spend time on the rifle range learning safe handling skills, basic shooting skills and give them the opportunity to fire a lot of rounds to develop marksmanship. It is the only camp of its kind in B.C. I also know that they have a waiting list every year if someone doesn't show. The teaching and supervision is provided by volunteers from the club and community, with the PAL and CORE courses taught by certified instructors.

Temporary Hi-jack

Events like this go a long way to starting the next generation off right. However, this is in jeopardy. The chairperson for the program has resigned after four years. The club is looking for someone to take over his role. It is a significant time commitment, but there are many volunteers already involved. Please consider this if you have the time and are a Member of the Chilliwack Fish and Game Club. If you want to volunteer, then contact the club. You can never have enough volunteers.

An excellent inititive! I wish that there be MORE like it and people willing to put in the time.


Blame the teacher:roll: There are more layers to showing controversial documentaries than the obvious 'anti' or 'climate change' perspectives. These movies are generally shown in order to generate discussion and promote critical thinking skills (something that is mandated in the BC curriculum).

.... Maybe these movies could be followed up w/ a hunting DVD or two.

Moore vs. Shockey - Me like's :smile:

Phil
11-29-2007, 12:44 PM
As for the teachers. If you hear of this happening in your school...teachers are not allowed to put their political views into the kids. You can have their job, (or at the very least a severe reprimand). People dont look kindly at the "Minds of the nation" instilling propaganda into youth. We did it at my old school after things got out of hand. Dont hesitate to do it at yours.


You might not feel the same way if a teacher was promoting proper gun useage and handeling in the schhol system due to your personal prefferences and experience. Others may find it offensive.

It is pretty tough to "have a teachers job" for being themselves. Teachers teach partly on their experiences in life regardless of the subject matter. Students need to filter out the material that is relevant to them and apply to their lives.

As DH pointed out, movies like this are shown to generate discussion. Seems to me like it worked. Good job Eichelherr bringing it up and well done to your teacher for provoking thought.

Browningmirage
11-29-2007, 02:25 PM
You might not feel the same way if a teacher was promoting proper gun useage and handeling in the schhol system due to your personal prefferences and experience. Others may find it offensive.

It is pretty tough to "have a teachers job" for being themselves. Teachers teach partly on their experiences in life regardless of the subject matter. Students need to filter out the material that is relevant to them and apply to their lives.

As DH pointed out, movies like this are shown to generate discussion. Seems to me like it worked. Good job Eichelherr bringing it up and well done to your teacher for provoking thought.


Sure it is tough to have a teachers job, i wouldnt be one myself, because i know it is a hard job to do...for the most part. Students do need to filter out the material, but conferring with young people, they believe whatever the teacher tells them (even in high school, i was there not 2 years ago).

Movies like this are shown to generate discussion, but why not do it in a place that is productive...like the classroom, where the movie was seen. Kids are naieve, they have no clue (even in grade 12) what the world is doing, and are like sponges to what a teacher says (seriously for example, one guy (and there were many others) in my grad class was talking to me about a touchy subject. His opinion was the exact same, with the exact same points and arguments as our english 12 teacher). Sure i can see one person having the same thoughts. But the whole grad class?

If you are subjected to one side of the story continuously, you will eventualy start to believe that one side (also teenagers are lazy, they arent going to look up what the teacher said to argue it unless it is homework...and even then). Whole nations have been mobilized and captured because one side only was told (Germany, 1930s), even though that side was completely false.

The teacher may have been trying to inspire thought. I promise you that is not the result for his class. Everyone will leave thinking guns are for redneck idiots. Dont underestimate the laziness of a teen (even in regards to thinking)

brian
11-29-2007, 03:34 PM
If you are subjected to one side of the story continuously, you will eventualy start to believe that one side (also teenagers are lazy, they arent going to look up what the teacher said to argue it unless it is homework...and even then).

You've just nailed why propaganda works. People are intellectually lazy. Joseph Goebbels (Hitlers propaganda minister) said something to the effect of,
Repeat a lie often enough and the people will believe it!

And he's absolutely right. Just take a look at the politics around these days.

The Hermit
11-29-2007, 03:45 PM
I have seen that movie too. Interesting that after as many times as you have seen it that you seem to have missed a point that he makes repeatedaly, that Canadians own way more guns per capita than americans and yet our gun related crime stats are way lower than those in the US. He also interviews Canadians on the topic and I thought did a pretty decent job of making the point that it isn't guns that kill it is people that kill people.

Scottish Warrior
12-06-2007, 10:00 AM
I have seen that movie too. Interesting that after as many times as you have seen it that you seem to have missed a point that he makes repeatedaly, that Canadians own way more guns per capita than americans and yet our gun related crime stats are way lower than those in the US. He also interviews Canadians on the topic and I thought did a pretty decent job of making the point that it isn't guns that kill it is people that kill people.


I agree with this comment but it still a very dangerous "movie" because of the way most people tend to interpret it. I saw it as more of a slam on the US news media than guns or anything else myself. Interesting.

Mr. Dean
12-06-2007, 10:14 AM
I have seen that movie too. Interesting that after as many times as you have seen it that you seem to have missed a point that he makes repeatedaly, that Canadians own way more guns per capita than americans and yet our gun related crime stats are way lower than those in the US. He also interviews Canadians on the topic and I thought did a pretty decent job of making the point that it isn't guns that kill it is people that kill people.

I caught this point but I left believing that it was more of a 'push' for tougher gun laws.

Moore's of the opinion that it's retailers that are responsable for shootings because they sell ammo...

Ubertuber
12-06-2007, 06:41 PM
I have seen that movie too. Interesting that after as many times as you have seen it that you seem to have missed a point that he makes repeatedaly, that Canadians own way more guns per capita than americans and yet our gun related crime stats are way lower than those in the US. He also interviews Canadians on the topic and I thought did a pretty decent job of making the point that it isn't guns that kill it is people that kill people.
I saw it that way too. For me, it wasn't anti-gun, but rather pointing out what a violent society the US is. Compared to the other cast of characters, Marilyn Manson came off as the most sane person in the movie.:neutral:

brian
12-06-2007, 07:33 PM
I agree with this comment but it still a very dangerous "movie" because of the way most people tend to interpret it. I saw it as more of a slam on the US news media than guns or anything else myself. Interesting.

You ever had some one answer you by saying "No" while they are nodding their head or vise versa? That's what this movie does, you can't quite figure out what he is saying but you come away blaming media, violence in society and guns. That is because he doesn't blame firearms explicitly, but then leaves you with the visual images of the interview with Charles Heston and the rifle in the bank fiasco. It has been a long time since I've seen it but he also tries to tie in Lockheed Martin in with it, but I could never figure out where he was really going with that one.

mainland hunter
12-08-2007, 10:27 AM
rent a movie called "Michael Moore-manufacturing decent" I thought they finally hit the nail on the head about who moore really is. Moore is a straight out liar and cares about and stands for nothing other than recieving film industry awards. He has been exposed time and time again and people still take him seriously. He claims to expose truth and while making his films goes to great lengths to avoid truth or manipulate facts. Bowling for Columbine Is full of him conveniently leaving out facts. There's a scene where it depicts him being given a gun for opening a bank account which ended up never happening. He created the whole thing for effect because it makes for interesting tv and thats all it boils down to with that dimwit.

Bullmoose
12-08-2007, 12:13 PM
It's another cut on our way to 1000, they represent actions such as showing this garbage movie as a way to invite discussion etc. etc. etc. but in reality all they do is plant a seed in an uninformed mind and make that individual open to more propaganda in the future. There are clubs and organizations that are fighting this but the numbers we reach are very small compared to the number of school children and general public who are affected by this organized propaganda distributed under the guise of education.
How many of us have taken any action either individually or as a group to combat this type of misinformation??? Sadly, most of us spend our time and effort preaching to the converted instead of informing and challanging a largely uninformed public. It's a battle of attrition, the longer the antis keep up this crap their numbers grow and the number of gun owners ages and decreases. It may take them a long time but unless we fight back in an organized fashion we're toast.

mainland hunter
12-24-2007, 11:57 PM
Michael Moore is the fear monger and he is a liar . he uses half truths manipulated to say what he wants and people eat it up. He has in every single one of his movies spat out outright lies, he doesnt have a cause and doesn't believe in anything except for ratings and film festival awards.

Gateholio
12-25-2007, 01:23 AM
An educator that shows "Bowling for Columbine" either:

a) Has an anti gun agenda

b) Is too ignorant to realize that what Moore shows is only one side of a debate

c) Is attempting to show thier class how media can manpulate facts and outright lie to suit the filmmakers agenda.

In option A and B, this educator should not be in a position to teach on the subject, since he/she has clear bias or is unqualified, due to ignorance.


Bowling for Columbine has been debunked so many times, all it takes is a Google search...Moore manipulated facts, mislead and outrigth lied.

A typical example is when he opens a bank account and gets a gun.

He neglects to tell the viewers that:

You must make a deposit of $10 000 or more

The bank has a list of "rewards" that you pick (including a set of golf clubs, TV etc)

The bank issues a voucher, and you take it to the merchant to claim your reward

When you go to pick up our rifle, all the regular procedures that come wiht actually going to the gun store and purchasing it are required (such as police checks)

He makes t look as if you open the account, and they have a pile of 30-06's there, ready to hand out to anyone. Pure BS.

Gateholio
12-25-2007, 01:31 AM
W
Some of the direct slams he did make to gun owners however, were for some of the lack of class and tact used by organizations like the NRA. I agree, it's their right to gather and hold rallies wherever they wish. However holding rallies right after the Columbine shooting, and the 6 year old boy shooting, was completely classless, shouldn't have been done, and will gather no support from those outside of the NRA. This was a completely stupid move, they could have held rallies at a later time after the community grieving was over. Or if they just had to throw a rally, why not one on the social issues causing gun crime, safe firearms practices, teaching the next generation safe firearms use, or the legalities of using firearms in defence (or something of the sort)? .

The NRA rally was planned at least a year in advance. It's not an easy thing to stop or change a thing such as this in it's last strides.

More importantly, however, is that the members of the NRA didn't commit any crimes, and neither did the guns.

The NRA is a pro gun group. They are not a Pro criminal use of firearms group. The murderers also wore trench coats. If a clothing company that happened to sell trenchcoats had planned a meeting, shoudl they have also canceled?:roll:

Gateholio
12-25-2007, 01:36 AM
I have seen that movie too. Interesting that after as many times as you have seen it that you seem to have missed a point that he makes repeatedaly, that Canadians own way more guns per capita than americans and yet our gun related crime stats are way lower than those in the US. He also interviews Canadians on the topic and I thought did a pretty decent job of making the point that it isn't guns that kill it is people that kill people.

The USA generally has higher violent crime rates (but Canada is catching up)

Americans may shoot each other more than Canadians, but they also knife and bludgeon each other more often.

The issue shoudl be VIOLENCE and not the TOOL of violence. I've never seen a gun shoot by itself, nor a knife stab by itself...

Gateholio
12-25-2007, 01:39 AM
[QUOTE=Phil;212622]You might not feel the same way if a teacher was promoting proper gun useage and handeling in the schhol system due to your personal prefferences and experience. Others may find it offensive.

Yes, which is why we shoudl give students the option of learning this.


It is pretty tough to "have a teachers job" for being themselves. Teachers teach partly on their experiences in life regardless of the subject matter. Students need to filter out the material that is relevant to them and apply to their lives.

Teahers shoudl provide both sides of an argument, IMHO. If they show BFC., they should also invite a member of a local F&G club rep, an NFA rep or BCWF rep to speak about it.

Gateholio
12-25-2007, 01:45 AM
My view is that while he doesn't make firearms look the greatest, the movie is about irrational fear motivating people to make the wrong decisions. Want reasoning, well see the post two above this one ;)

Parts of the film may be about irrational fear mongering, but he only discusses firearms, no other weapon.

Irrational fear mongering includes Moore lying about legal access to firearms, and portraying gun stores as part of the "gun violence" problem.

He may as well go to car dealerships and proclaim that "anyone wiht a job can secure a deadly device known as a "car" and drive at 200KMPH"

Or a liquor store and say "Anyone over the age of 21 can come into this place, not have any background check, and just leave withthis booze, which will make him go drink it, get into his 200KMPH car and kill people"

Cars kill more people than guns. Oh wait..Is it the car? Or the driver?

YukonJack
12-25-2007, 05:43 AM
know[/B] they can handle themselves, whereas a coward will pull a weapon at the first chance.

Where'd this come from?....if it was you, please reconsider. Defence isn't so much about premeditation, as it it is about being prepared to act. Armed response to aggression is definitely not a cowardly act. As the quote states, "out of fear"...which implies peril. "In a fight"...which signifies involvement.

Maybe you should become familiar with 42-year-old Jeanne Assam, of Colorado Springs; write her a letter and call her a coward.

Would you grab any object to smash a thug threatening you in a mugging? Would you do so to neutralize a lowlife robbing an old lady at an ATM at knifepoint?

I'd say the cowardly thing is to do nothing. Either when protecting yourself or others.
Your life doesn't grow back if it's cut off.

Your take is that the movie is about irrational fear motivating people to make the wrong descisions...Where does "irrational" come into play when people are in fear of anything? Fear for one's life is an intangible human feeling. Is there a checklist for that?...do we have the time to consult it and make a descision to your liking?

Reasonable folks are capable of taking appropriate action, something the governments would sooner not have us do...but law still provides for that, for now.
Cowardly it ain't.

YukonJack
12-25-2007, 06:19 AM
:cool:..Cool....Kinda' knew that from reading all your posts. No offence intended, some won't read everything a fellow has to say, and being concise makes a difference in the way people interpret what is written.

This has been an interesting thread....educational and informative, all around.

McRackin
01-05-2008, 07:06 PM
I used to like Moore because I thought he put up a good argument. After watching more then 1 of his films its obvious he's a completely one sided devils advocate type of arguer so I view his movies as a pretty irrelevant look at any issue. Almost anyone who shows his movies are smug, the type of person that talks to you with their eyes closed, and offers no counter argument.

The fact is there are probably 10 million + guns around Canada, and rarely if at all recently, are used in a crime by a registered and responsible gun owner.