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Walksalot
02-10-2005, 08:21 AM
I am a dedicated compound shooter who has never so much as held a crossbow but as long as they are allowed in the archery hunting season and as long as they don't beat up the targets and compete in their own category I think they shouls be allowed on the 3D course.

willyqbc
02-10-2005, 08:55 AM
As long as appropriate safety measures are observed I don't see a problem with that. I can't see them being any harder on the targets than a compound..... so why not? I shoot to see how good I can be..... so I really couldn't care less what others choose to shoot.

Chris

3kills
02-10-2005, 09:36 AM
i dont shoot a bow...yet that is cuz it is something i want to get into...but i dont see why a crossbow cant be used a on a 3d range like chris said as long as safety is met...and i do think they should have there own catagory of course...

love the woods
02-10-2005, 09:47 AM
We were at a 3d shoot saturday in mission.My buddy who is part of our hunting group didnt participate because he shoots a crossbow.I keep hearing about proper safety measures being taken about crossbows when the topic comes up at the shoots (and it comes up more than you would think).Owning a crossbow and a compound i know first hand the differences of the two , BUT safety measures are safety measures regardless of the bow, rifle or pistol.They all have to be loaded at the line , pointed in a safe direction and discharged properly.With the crossbow it needs to be fired once loaded but that crossbow shooter was at the line to shoot so he is safe to do so.I am talking only on the outdoor shoots when there is only a single shooter at the line with his team behind him.With the 3d targets being crafted better the argument that they destroy the targets really isnt a valid arguement as it has once been.Just my opinion.

oldtimer
02-10-2005, 08:36 PM
I have only been shooting 3D for a couple of years but can't see a problem if crossbows want to participate as long as all safety regs are followed, same as any other shooter. May need more than 1 category for them as i understand some shoot with scopes and some with open sights. The more the merrier. Mike:-D

Kirby
02-10-2005, 09:41 PM
Personally I can't see a reason why not, for safetly measures, what doesn't have safety measures?

Kirby

Fred
02-10-2005, 11:58 PM
The more welcome the Crossbow shooters feel, the better for archery in general. Fred

bochunk2000
02-11-2005, 01:23 AM
I voted no because I have the oppimion that they will destroy a target faster then other bows. I haven't seen how they do on some of the brand new targets. It would certainly be interesting to see guys walking around with crossbows at a shoot. ust my humble oppinion...Steve.

willyqbc
02-11-2005, 09:05 AM
I'm curious as to why you think a crossbow will damage a target anymore than any other bow bowchunk? Most crossbows out there today are really no faster than a compound, allthough there are some that are, however shooting a light, short bolt they lose speed and energy quickly, and unless your getting passthrough, a holes a hole far as i can see. My 3-d rig is set up as a mirror of my hunting rig and produces somewhere in the neighbourhood of 80 ft/lbs of KE so to me target damage is a non issue.

Chris

love the woods
02-11-2005, 10:03 AM
i have also heard the arguement that the crossbow arrows are thicker in diameter,thus leaving a bigger hole.Again this is no longer the case.I have met a few of the guys going to the provincials and farther(if good enough) and they are going to a larger diameter with a thinner wall.:biggrin:

willyqbc
02-11-2005, 10:54 AM
Yeah the advent of the thicker shaft throws that argument out the window allright.... i've got some new gold tip shafts that are .390 of an inch!!:shock: not sure if I'm gonna shoot them yet or not as my series 22's ( also a fat shaft) are flying so well for me!:-D

Chris

greybark
02-11-2005, 03:57 PM
:roll: Several years back while sharing a Whitetail hunt camp with a crossbow hunter I watched as his bolts at a distance of 60 yd pass thru my practise target and into a frozen pine tree . At a distance of 20 yd my 60 lb recurve`s arrows would penitrate 4in. I had the experience of shooting a 3-d event with a crossbow shooter. If he knew the distance to the target he would pin wheel it every time. Several times I had to warn him not to cock and load his weapon behind me .
:icon_frow I generally find that because of the stigmatism crossbow hunters have from some archers that they do not belong to archery clubs and therefore find it hard to contribute to archery clubs with their wildlife projects and archery season accusitions. Perhapes their participation in 3-d events would correct this.

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

bochunk2000
02-11-2005, 08:48 PM
I'm curious as to why you think a crossbow will damage a target anymore than any other bow bowchunk? Most crossbows out there today are really no faster than a compound, allthough there are some that are, however shooting a light, short bolt they lose speed and energy quickly, and unless your getting passthrough, a holes a hole far as i can see. My 3-d rig is set up as a mirror of my hunting rig and produces somewhere in the neighbourhood of 80 ft/lbs of KE so to me target damage is a non issue.

Chris

I was under the apearently mistaken impression that they did considerable damage on impact. I have heard stories like those of greybark of passthrough at long range on targets. If this is not the case them I am truely mistaken. I would like to see how they perform on 3D targets to form a valid oppinion...Steve.

Nails
02-13-2005, 07:04 PM
Crossbows are a unique weapon, do they fit in with firearms or archery. Their make up is using a bolt (long bullet) powered by energy stored by the limbs (gun powder) held by a trigger. Bow shooter uses his body to the hold the draw weight. I consider a crossbow to being like a derringer hand gun. Deadly at short distinces.
One of my hunting partner hunts with Xbow and is very effective weapon. Are they allowed in other 3-D shoots outside of BC?

greybark
02-13-2005, 08:16 PM
:roll: Hey Nails , The official military defination of the of a soldier`s personnel weapon (rifle) is a firearm that is (1) SHOULDER CONTROLED and (2)TRIGGER OPERATED. If that alone does`t convince one that the crossbow`s method of operation is closer to that of a firearm then to a bow then please read the rule for aiming (3)" YOU ALIGN THE TIP OF THE FORESIGHT IN THE CENTER OF THE REAR APERATURE , PLACE ON TARGET AND GENTLY SQUEEZE THE TRIGGER.
;) A Firearm uses steps (1) , (2) and (3)
A Crossbow uses steps (1) , (2) and (3)
A Compound uses steps (2) and (3)
A Traditional Bow uses uses none of the steps.
:( It is obvious that the method of operation of a firearm and crossbow are similiar .
;) I havn`t voted yet !!!!

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

Nails
02-14-2005, 12:23 AM
I have not voted yet either Greybark. I have my own opinions on this as everyone else. I feel the xbow is a great weapon a very effective weapon that is devestasting on body armour of old. Should it be used as archery tackle or 3D's HUMM.....

J_T
03-11-2005, 02:57 PM
Well, this is an interesting trail we are weaving with this post. Thought I would resurrect it again.

Q: The crossbow is considered archery tackle by regulation, does that mean if they aren't allowed at 3D shoots there is a bias against them.
A: No.
Q: While most archers are working towards confidence and an understanding of their effective range are a traditional bow (accurate from 5 - 20 yards depending on variables) and a crossbow (accurate from 15 - 80 yards) compatable at 3D shoots?
A: Not always

Q: What is the largest category at most shoots.
A: Traditional. People want to have fun, the trad bow allows many new recruits to "give it a try". It opens the door to recruitment.


To challenge a crossbow shooter at a 3D shoot would require a variety of solutions when laying out a shoot. One of those might be increasing yardage on shots to separate the very best from the others. At that point, safety may be a very real issue.

Standing at the line, focusing on the target and coming to draw with a compound or trad bow does not present much of a safety issue (in most instances), while drawing the weapon, securing the action and then coming to focus on the target at the line, might.

I have seen crossbows used at shoots and make no mistake about it, they are very hard on targets. Not to mention my back would not want to contribute to the pulling of those bolts. Ten inches of foam penetration would not leave you much to pull on.

Crossbows are considered archery tackle by regulation, does that mean they should be welcome at a 3D shoot. Does a 7mm go to a .22 silhouete shoot?

JT

oldtimer
03-11-2005, 06:19 PM
J T not sure about your numbers as to what is the most popular bow at shoots. Up here I would say that compound bows make up the biggest group then traditional after that. Granted I have only been shooting for a couple of years but the biggest category at any shoot I have been to is men's unlimited which is compound with a release and pins. no scope and stabilizer 12" or under. Just my observations. Mike :D

3d bowman
03-11-2005, 10:52 PM
Hey what's wrong with cross bows on a 3d shoot?? Everybody else has there own catagory, why not crossbows?? I understand that the targets are designed to handle them now. Compound bows are shooting vey fast now. Fill me in on what I'm miss on the subject??

J_T
03-14-2005, 08:34 AM
3D Bowman,

At what yardage would you say a crossbow shooter would likely want to practice or have their abilities tested? At a 3D shoot, at what distance would you want to see your targets?

JT

willyqbc
03-14-2005, 09:58 AM
Well folks seem to think target damage is a big issue, I can't see that being a valid argument unless your prepared to rule out guys who shoot high poundage compounds that produce large KE as well. As stated earlier my current 3D rig is set at 73#'s and produces about 80ft/lbs. My previous set-up was 84#s and shot a 440 grain arrow 307ft/sec producing about 92 ft/lbs. So lets hear some stats on crossbows...what speed with what weight arrow are you guys shooting, i'd like to compare the KE numbers!

Chris

willyqbc
03-14-2005, 12:56 PM
well after doing some research on crossbows it would seem that the specs are very similiar to the compounds. The fastest one I could find was from excaliber and it claims 355ft/sec with a 350 grain arrow, which is almost an exact match for the fastest compound on the market, the bowtech Black night at 350 ft/sec with a 350 grain arrow, 70#'s. Now even if the crossbow can make its claimed speed you are only looking at a few ft/lbs more than compounds I have shot in the past on the 3d course. So given that I would have to say that target damage should not be considered as an argument for keeping them off the 3D course. If anyone has any more/different info on crossbow speed and power please post it up.
[HTML] [To challenge a crossbow shooter at a 3D shoot would require a variety of solutions when laying out a shoot/HTML]

I think you may be underestimating the skill it would take to score well with a crossbow on a 3d course. The need to judge yardage would be the same as any other archer, and the need to hold steady on your target would be the same. In my opinion holding steady shooting a crossbow freehand would be no easier than holding a compound steady. Also considering that the compound shooters by regulation face targets up to 55yds away, I would say that the challenge would be more than adequate. I would just about gurauntee that you wouldn't see any more 10X's from crossbowers than you would from compounders on a 50 yard deer for example. Actually you might even have better results from the compounders. I read of a test that was done a while ago that showed a decent archer could put together a better group at 40 yds than a decent rifle shooter shooting freehand....of course you extend that range to 100yds and the results take a dramatic swing, but you get my point. I say that as long as they are categorized as bows they should be allowed. We need to stick together as archers if we are going to get anywhere with our sport.

Chris

oldtimer
03-14-2005, 01:40 PM
WELL SAID SON !!!!!! couldn't agree more. You have seen me shoot compound and how much i move around. don't think it would be any less with a crossbow:redface: Mike

J_T
03-14-2005, 10:52 PM
Willy,

Please keep in mind I was not commenting at all about bowhunting. My views on bowhunting respect the regulations and crossbows are legitimate tackle. As I read your comment, I thought possibly you had assumed I viewed 3D and hunting as one. Not at all.

My point was to question the compatability of crossbows at a 3D shoot and also consider any potential safety issues.

You appear to have justified that a compound bow and crossbow, are quite equal with respect to speed and Kinetic Energy. I'll accept that.
If you have high numbers of compound shooters at your shoots and you have crossbow shooters wanting to join in then that is a decision for the local organization to make. Certainly has the potential to increase revenue.

You also mention a 55 yard shot. While I might take these shots at a 3D I would never take it in the field. With traditional shooters at shoots, there are an abundance of shorter range shots in the 10 to 30 yard range. Because 5 to 20 yards or sometimes 30 yards depending on the animal is the effective range of traditional gear. If you extend the yardage too frequently (possibly to entice the crossbow shooter), the traditional shooter will likely cease to enjoy the shoot and subsequently, cease to come. Again, a decision for the local organization to decide which direction it should go.

With traditional gear, and compounds, the shooter steps up to the line, takes his position, eyes the target, knocks his arrow, comes to draw etc etc.... isn't it possible, that a crossbow shooter, having seated his bolt and readied his action at the line, might find that he doesn't have the desired steadiness, so he kneels down, or goes prone, or leans into a tree. I know if I was shooting a rifle, I want the most solid position I can take. Does this movement after the crossbow is readied, create a safety issue? Maybe not in all cases. But it might in some. Can the risk be managed?

I personally know of crossbow shooters taking 100 yard shots at game (and making them). This places them miles outside of my stickbow's league. Studies in the US have the use of crossbows so much more effective than a compound that they have moved them out of the archery season due to their effectiveness. I don't want to bring hunting into this, but use the example as an expression of how deadly accurate the crossbow is. Possibly over and above the compound.

Crossbows often can be a rifle hunters first exposure to a bow, and the new enthusiasm shouldn't be stifled, they should be welcomed, I agree.

JT

willyqbc
03-15-2005, 01:50 AM
JT , Actually i was not thinking of hunting in my post but rather strictly 3D. I am a bit perplexed by your comments about the compatibility of crossbows and traditional bows at a shoot. Do the shoots you attend have one common stake for all to shoot from? All shoots I have ever been to have seperate stakes for compound and traditional each within the groups effective ranges. Most even have it split down to mens and womens compound, traditional and cubs all at their own stakes.

As far as the safety concerns.... i also voiced some concern over that but my issue was more directed to the temptation for shooters to cock the bow and seat their arrow in anticipation of moving up to the line instead of waiting until they are at the stake to do so. That being said I also recognize that a bonehead move is a bonehead move no matter what weapon you choose.

Chris

PS..... good debate!!! one of the best we've had on here so far!!:-)

Walksalot
03-15-2005, 07:49 AM
I think we must remember that we are shooting our said weapons by choice and I think we have to be carefull and try not to impose our personal values on other people. As long as the safety and harder on the target issues are addressed then I say live and let live.

rrfred
03-15-2005, 11:32 PM
hey there all, An x bow is still an archery device, comparisons to the range of a rifle are a joke and xbows will generally match the power and trajectory of a good compound bow, efficiency of xbows is lower due to the shorter power stroke. the benefits of an xbow is being able to preload the device when hunting, the downside is bulk and noise. when people suggest the the range can be effective out past 50ish thats fine for practice but a one yard error past fifty will generally mean a fringe hit or a miss. on the range- great go for it- in the hunting fields keep the ranges sane ...those 80- 100 yds shots at game bragged by some are nonsense and irresponsible in my humble opinion.

my longest big game kills using and xbow was at 46yds, with a compund it was 43 overall and average is 28 yds for all of my archery killed meat . I've hunted and shot coumpound bows, self bows recurves and xbows extensively, great tools when used inside their limitations.

The other side of the equation is hunting skills and tracking skills where the serious bowhuntersmight may have a skills advantage- waiting for the best shot and focussing on going for unalarmed animals, patience and careful tracking after the shot. Sure would be nice to see the xbows allowed in 3d's I 'd go back for sure, would even take long shots for fun at foam targets, meantime I take out the xbow in the bush with my targets pratice out to30- 50yds ish, and enjoy when I do,

my opinion / two bits..... mileage will vary....... no flames please, cheers guys. rrfred

3d bowman
12-21-2006, 06:21 PM
Just wondering on this topic......has anyone heard then, if crossbows will be allowed on the 3d course?? I think it would be interesting to shot with someone with a crossbow. Bring it on!!

3d bowman
12-21-2006, 06:30 PM
Hey JT,
Just gettin back to site now sorry I didn't relpy, but it looks like you and Willyqbc are hashing it out. I would say have then shoot with the compounds at the furthest stake. Then go from there....trial and error. Just because someone shoots a crossbow doesn't mean they are going to be a better shot. Human error in all we do and individual skill will make it a challenge.

bsa30-06
12-21-2006, 06:59 PM
I don't have a problem with it but i would think it would have to be at an indoor course or at a club that allows the discharge of crossbows.For example i know that the field here in burnaby were they hold the flat field 3d's they had to stop allowing crossbows due to a incident there a few years ago in order to just keep the archery field open.I'm sure there are probably other outdoor courses where the discharge of crossbows are not allowed.

brotherjack
12-21-2006, 11:25 PM
Oh, good grief... I had thought that after the last - amazingly civil - crossboow thread, that we'd made some progress since crossbow threads of olde. And yet here we are, discussing wether or not crossbows could/should be 'permitted' to shoot at archery events. A crossbow engages the safety when you draw it (a device of significantly heavier and more reliable construction than many a release I've ever looked at); it's not any more a safety hazard than anything else that is capable of flinging an arrow. It doesn't have any more KE or FPS than a compound bow, so it is against the laws of physics to say it will tear up the target worse than a fast compound bow. If someone wants an excuse for excluding crossbows from their club, how about just come right out and say "we don't like crossbows, and we don't want them invading our clubs." That's essentially what's already been said by the use of far fetched excuses as to why they shouldn't be 'allowed'. As I've said in past threads, that kind of attitude is why I wouldn't show up for a 3D event, even if I was 'permitted'. I'd rather spend my time somewhere I'm 'welcome' than I would someplace I've finally been 'allowed', after much debate.

huntwriter
12-22-2006, 08:01 AM
Oh, good grief... I had thought that after the last - amazingly civil - crossboow thread, that we'd made some progress since crossbow threads of olde. And yet here we are, discussing wether or not crossbows could/should be 'permitted' to shoot at archery events. A crossbow engages the safety when you draw it (a device of significantly heavier and more reliable construction than many a release I've ever looked at); it's not any more a safety hazard than anything else that is capable of flinging an arrow. It doesn't have any more KE or FPS than a compound bow, so it is against the laws of physics to say it will tear up the target worse than a fast compound bow. If someone wants an excuse for excluding crossbows from their club, how about just come right out and say "we don't like crossbows, and we don't want them invading our clubs." That's essentially what's already been said by the use of far fetched excuses as to why they shouldn't be 'allowed'. As I've said in past threads, that kind of attitude is why I wouldn't show up for a 3D event, even if I was 'permitted'. I'd rather spend my time somewhere I'm 'welcome' than I would someplace I've finally been 'allowed', after much debate.
You took the wrods right out of my mouth. Well said.

It's an ongoing discussion, for years now, and still based mostly on myth.

bcfarmer
12-22-2006, 08:53 AM
You took the wrods right out of my mouth. Well said.

It's an ongoing discussion, for years now, and still based mostly on myth.

couldn't have said the last line better. There are a few "hard core" archery people at our club that have had their opinions changed regarding crossbows in both hunting and at the 3-d course. Once out there and actually shooting with a xbow shooter. they realized that most of the "myths" were just that.Practice and knowledge of yardage...if you don't do both of these then it doesn't matter what your shooting. Just my opinion.

To degress a little regarding comments about xbow shooters shooting animals at 50 plus yards. This is once again in my opinion just irresponsible. Just as in a whitetail camp in the kettle this year, guys were bragging about their 70-80yd compound bow shots as well as their head shots.
What I'm saying here is don't blame the weapon,a human is shooting it.

oldtimer
12-22-2006, 01:20 PM
Exactly Jack. well said. We have been over and over this !! a bow is a bow is a bow !!!!!!!! Mike

huntwriter
12-22-2006, 01:42 PM
bcfarmer
oldtimer


Well made comments. It’s good to see that some don’t fall victim to hype and myth. As hunters we face much more pressing issues today than bow v. crossbow.

As for bragging about distances some may shoot. It's not unique to crossbow hunters. It’s like befarmer said it. It’s the person behind the weapon that makes the decision, neither does a particular weapon “encourage” a hunter to be more or less ethical. Sorry to bust the bubble for some.

Bragging about shooting distances is in many ways like catching a fish, the more the story is told and retold the bigger the fish gets. It’s just the macho thing to do for some. :)

Rainwater
12-22-2006, 01:52 PM
At our shoots we take their money and let them shoot whatever they want. It is only my opinion but I think the bolts go in the targets quite deep from an XBow and that can cause a problem for the shooter, and the waiter! I think it's better to have these guys there practicing don't you?

Tank
12-22-2006, 02:06 PM
I firmly believe that adding x-bows to the 3-d course would bring in alot more shooters. More shooters = more $$$ = higher quality shoot next year. Bring em' on!

huntwriter
12-22-2006, 02:23 PM
I can’t see all the hoopla about damaged targets! I shot both, a compound bow and a crossbow the damage to the target is about equal. If the target is worn out I buy a new one. They sell them everywhere you know. In my opinion, accusing a crossbow of target damage seems yet just another attempt to make crossbows look bad. Targets are meant to be damaged that’s what they are here for. As for the somewhat tiresome safety issue with crossbows, it’s not a bigger issue than with any other type of bow. Either it’s safe or it isn’t. There are no different safety standards such as “Traditional bow safety”, “Compound bow safety” and so on, and on. ;)

brotherjack
12-22-2006, 06:23 PM
At our shoots we take their money and let them shoot whatever they want. It is only my opinion but I think the bolts go in the targets quite deep from an XBow and that can cause a problem for the shooter, and the waiter! I think it's better to have these guys there practicing don't you?

Technically speaking, they're not penetrating any deeper, they're just a lot shorter than most of the arrows compound or traditional archers shoot (almost 1/3rd shorter actually), so there's a lot less shaft left sticking out. They actually make crossbow arrows with threaded flat knocks and a little tool to thread into them and give you a handle for just that issue. :)

FullDraw
12-23-2006, 01:21 AM
Ah why not let them shot 3D's I'd like to see the cross bow shooter after shooting a 40 target 3D event.

FullDraw

Gateholio
12-23-2006, 01:59 AM
Just like IPSC, 3D appears to have ther elitists....

If you want to encourage more people into your sport, (baseball, shoointg, 3D, frisbee etc) it is important that rather than go out of your way to find a reason to EXCLUDE people, you go out of your way to work out a METHOD to INCLUDE them.

This is simple stuff, though..8-)

GoatGuy
12-23-2006, 12:24 PM
From what I've read it looks like some are more worried about losing competitions than they are about having fun! For most hunting isn't about how much better they do compared to others.


It isn't hard to create different rules for different gear - no different than divisions in hockey, weight classes in boxing, age classes in marathons, olympics vs. special olympics - no special rinks, boxing rings, tracks or venues needed

Hmmmm, maybe some folks shouldn't be allowed to use releases, no sights, hmmmmmmmmmmm, no, even better, your bow must be made of a tree that you grew, harvested and shaped, arrows of the same, tips of stone, and fletching out of birds that you wrestled with your bare hands because you can't harvest anything unless it's with your bow


If you're excluding hunters you're alienating hunting.................... .......... all this just because they use different equipment...........................hmmmmmmmm
:-(

Onesock
12-23-2006, 03:32 PM
Like I said before, it is in MY opinion. This was a free country last time I checked. If guys want to use x-bows for 3-D or hunting fill your boots. I just happen to not agree with it.
Merry Christmas to all.

Gateholio
12-23-2006, 04:18 PM
Yeah, everyone can have an opinion.

My opinion is that every supposed "valid" reason to disallow crossbows has been debunked on this thread.:lol:

sealevel
12-25-2006, 08:20 AM
I don`t think its much of an issue . Crossbow shooters have been welcome at 3d shoots in the okanogan for the last couple of years . Were are they??? I saw 3 in 05 and not one in 06 . If crossbow shooters want to be included come out and shoot.

fireonethree
12-25-2006, 04:20 PM
Sealevel and Gatehouse,

You bring up an interesting point about allowing crossbow shooters on a 3D shoot.

I think most of the posts agree that if safety concerns are addressed, then let them shoot and enjoy the day. The damaged target myth has been corrected and the velocity comparisons, too. Most of us feel that it should go ahead.

Up here in the NW, we have been told by BCAA that there is a legal limitation that restricts the use of crossbows from participating in 3D tournies. Their use on a course will not be covered through the insurance provider through BCAA, only longbows and compound incidents.... I know, this sounds goofy, but this is what we were told.

This is totally different from the personal opinions of whether they should be allowed, and falls under whether they can be allowed. It has to do with liabilities and coverage through the BCAA insurance provider, and not so much with the political will against crossbow users from the traditional guys.

This brings me back to your post because you mention that you have had them in your past 3D shoots. Can you give me anymore info on how this is done, and still meets the requirements? I have a buddy here that wants to shoot at our tournie, but has been refused because of this. If we are getting fed a bunch of crap from someone's personal view on crossbows, I would like to know the truth and get him out there enjoying the course with the rest of us.

-FOT

Rainwater
12-25-2006, 06:45 PM
As I have stated before these Xbow boys should practice also and it's hard to beat 3D isn't it. They are presently allowed in Bow only seasons in BC which is a rarity compared to other jurisdictions on the planet so they should get there "stuff" together and join up.

Kirby
12-25-2006, 06:57 PM
As I have stated before these Xbow boys should practice also and it's hard to beat 3D isn't it. They are presently allowed in Bow only seasons in BC which is a rarity compared to other jurisdictions on the planet so they should get there "stuff" together and join up.

Sorry, but who says they aren't shooting in their back yards? I know I had a 20 target 3-d course set up when I was 17. I didn't have a vehicle and their weren't many shoots so I shot alone. I know at least 2 crossbow guys who do this due to the hate they recieve from other guys8)

Kirby

Gateholio
12-25-2006, 09:53 PM
Sealevel and Gatehouse,

You bring up an interesting point about allowing crossbow shooters on a 3D shoot.

I think most of the posts agree that if safety concerns are addressed, then let them shoot and enjoy the day. The damaged target myth has been corrected and the velocity comparisons, too. Most of us feel that it should go ahead.

Up here in the NW, we have been told by BCAA that there is a legal limitation that restricts the use of crossbows from participating in 3D tournies. Their use on a course will not be covered through the insurance provider through BCAA, only longbows and compound incidents.... I know, this sounds goofy, but this is what we were told.

This is totally different from the personal opinions of whether they should be allowed, and falls under whether they can be allowed. It has to do with liabilities and coverage through the BCAA insurance provider, and not so much with the political will against crossbow users from the traditional guys.

This brings me back to your post because you mention that you have had them in your past 3D shoots. Can you give me anymore info on how this is done, and still meets the requirements? I have a buddy here that wants to shoot at our tournie, but has been refused because of this. If we are getting fed a bunch of crap from someone's personal view on crossbows, I would like to know the truth and get him out there enjoying the course with the rest of us.

-FOT


I'd go to the insurance cpompany and find out what the issue was, and if they refuse to be flexiblee, find another insurance company. Even regular ol BCWF liability insurance woudl cover 3D matches, I woudl imagine.

fireonethree
12-26-2006, 06:24 PM
Hey guys,

Found out some interesting info on the "debate".

The BCAA (BC Archery Assoc.) is insured through the FCA (Federation of Canadian Archers). In an email I got from the President of the BCAA, she says "We are insured through the FCA in order to make insurance as affordable as possible, it is the same insurance coverage that covers 80 percent of archery clubs in Canada. Because crossbows can be loaded and the shooter can walk around with it loaded they feel that this is a dangerous situation that could lead to serious harm, unlike a bow as the bow has to be physically drawn back and shot with intension it is less likely to have accidental discharge. The crossbow is in limbo right now as the bolt travels too slow to be placed in the firearms category but insurance people see this as a risk that they are not willing to take."

She also mentions that this issue has been brought up before by BC residents, and she doesn't believe that the BCWLF can offer any help with the legal point or insurance coverage.

In other parts of the country and the states too, crossbows are not classified as 'bows', but in BC we do. This is where national insurance coverage policies fail to recognize provincial regulations.

You are right, maybe the solution is to look for another insurance source, but this might be a tough thing to do, if the BCAA is stuck with it, chances are local clubs wouldn't have any better luck. She assured me that this is not a political issue about crossbows not being true 'bows' from the BCAA, but simply the underwriters not wanting to take the risk for coverage.

Kind of crappy news for everyone that wants to see crosbows at tournies and 3D shoots, but it doesn't look like it will be a possibility in the near future.:-(

-FOT

Gateholio
12-27-2006, 12:23 AM
All I can say is that there is very, very affordable insurance offffered to most gun ranges (since insurance claims at ranges are very rare, the premium is not too high) and maybe it's time to look at other insurers, or add the extra .0.50 a year to get crossbows included etc.

Just having a club belong to the BCWF gives a member $2 million in liability if they are engaging in target shooting or hunting or fishing or legal outdoor sports...

I dont' claim to be an expert in htese areas, but I knw there are options out there...

Hell, if a club can get insurance for IPSC- where people run around and shoot handguns on the move- a 3d course for crossbows seems like childs play...:)

As far as walking around wtiht a loaded crossbow..You guys have rules that prohibit peopel walking around at full draw with a compund don't you? :roll:

sealevel
12-27-2006, 12:39 AM
I don`t think there is a rule like that gatehouse . We never think of that at a bow shoot tell it happens. I have never seen anyone walk around with it cocked and a bolt in it. but a guy was walking around with it cocked over his shoulder----at our shoot in salmon arm we give away 6 bows we were perpared to give away a crossbow to but not one showed up. we will not be offering anything to the crossbows guys again tell there are some numbers show up .

fireonethree
12-27-2006, 12:59 AM
Gatehouse,

Great comments! Man, when you put it that way (IPSEC), it really puts it in perspective!!! Running around with a .45 on a course is ok, but the sky will fall if someone wants to shoot a crossbow at a 3D tournie.

You're onto something here about insurance carriers, and we should look into who does provide coverage for IPSEC meets. If it is covered under BCWLF, I don't understand why they shouldn't cover an archery tournament. Maybe this is something that the BCAA never really looked into, and I'll have to do more calling around.


-FOT

Gateholio
12-27-2006, 01:25 AM
[QUOTE=sealevel]I don`t think there is a rule like that gatehouse . We never think of that at a bow shoot tell it happens. I have never seen anyone walk around with it cocked and a bolt in it. but a guy was walking around with it cocked over his shoulder

I am supposing that you have rules that a "Bow must not be loaded until in the shootiing area" or somehtign like that? This is an EASY fix- You make the rules CLEAR when people show up. "Arrows must not be placed in bows until ready to shoot" Easy...


----at our shoot in salmon arm we give away 6 bows we were perpared to give away a crossbow to but not one showed up. we will not be offering anything to the crossbows guys again tell there are some numbers show up .

Absolutely makes sense- Why give a prize to thse that dont' even show?

Once again- EASY fix. make it clear that crossbows are WELCOME and then you might just get that added participation that you want!8-)

Like everything, it will take some time. First time may be one or 2 crossbow guys, but word spreads- it always does.

When we started our "womens night" trap night, after the first year we had more wopmen showing up than we knew what to do...and then kids showed up and new adult males showed up, and so we changed it to "beginners night" and we had female, male, kids etc all show up and shoot and we almost had too many!

Give the an excuse, they will come eventually...

I just wish *I* could take credit for the Beginners Night, but it wasn't my idea, so i cannot!:lol:

Gateholio
12-27-2006, 01:37 AM
Gatehouse,

Great comments! Man, when you put it that way (IPSEC), it really puts it in perspective!!! Running around with a .45 on a course is ok, but the sky will fall if someone wants to shoot a crossbow at a 3D tournie.

You're onto something here about insurance carriers, and we should look into who does provide coverage for IPSEC meets. If it is covered under BCWLF, I don't understand why they shouldn't cover an archery tournament. Maybe this is something that the BCAA never really looked into, and I'll have to do more calling around.


-FOT

keep in mind IPCS is no more dangerous than trap shooting or 3D if basic regulations are followed, but all of them have potential for danger. (Although walking across the street in Vancouver is statistically more dangerous than any shooting or hunting activity and I'd rather get shot wiht a 9mm IPSC bullet than a broadhead or a #7.5 trap load:lol: )

The point is, someone has given your insurance company information that makes them feel that crossbows are more dangerous than other bows, which clearly is not the case. I would not want to suggest that there is some agenda that has influenced your insurance company or the BCAA into this incorrect conclusion, but hte truth is, they believe it to be so- for whatever reason.

My rudimentary knowledge of BCWF insurance suggest that anyone involved in a lawful outdoor sport is covered for 2 million in liability insurance, and this woudl include activities on a shooting range or 3D.

I *may* be incorrect, of course-but-I do not think so. Only due dilligence will answer that. I know that our club operates a shooitng range, and the BCWF insurance covers that.8-)

sealevel
12-27-2006, 09:40 AM
I guess nobody thought we needed a rule DON`T WORK AROUND WITH YOUR BOW LOADED. I never did vote the poles are closed so i vote in favor of crossbows.

fireonethree
12-27-2006, 10:10 AM
Gatehouse, Sealevel,

I never had a chance to vote either, got to the post too late, but I would vote in favour of having crossbows shoot.

Gatehouse, your comment about the safety concerns is basically what I expressed to the BCWF, except I said it is probably more dangerous to drive to the events than to actually participate in them...regardless if it is an IPSEC or 3D shoot.:lol:

I'll wait to see what they have to say about this. Our club is considering buiding a new 3D shoot at the R&G club, so this would bring our "interests" even closer together, and hopefully all of the proper coverage too.

If I had to guess, I would say that ther isn't much interest from the BCAA to include crossbows in their coverage because they are not traditional(...although they are a heck of alot more 'traditional' than compounds). Like you said, somewhere along the lines, the insurance provider was convinced that crossbows were dangerous, or not convinced that they were safe. Either way, it might fall on the shoulders of the BCAA for this one. I hope that the BCWF comes through on this one.

-FOT-

sealevel
12-27-2006, 03:21 PM
Brother jack i am a avide 3d shooter and have not seen a crossbow shooter turned away .theres a few on this forum who are anti crossbow. but i dought anyone at a 3d shoot would not make you welcome.

Rainwater
12-27-2006, 06:40 PM
I can only assume that Insurance companies rely on advice from someone in the bow fraternity to make decisions. I guess it's hard to shoot the guy beside you if you drop your compound! Yes Onesock BC is well behind but we are gaining ground in few different ways. I am under the assumption and from this post that it is only BCAA sanctioned shoots that don't allow Xbows, we allow them at our BCWF affiliated club shoots, I will get our secretary to write a letter to see if it's ok and will post results here. Now play nice boys!

Walksalot
12-28-2006, 08:46 AM
Our shoots are BCAA sanctioned. We have to get the crossbow shooters to sign in to be covered under the clubs insurance policy.
I was instumental in getting our club to allow crossbows on the course and let me tell you it wasn't easy. One senior instructor was so anti crossbow he treatended to leave the course at the sight of a crossbow. Not until he contacted and recieved a response from a well respected archer/senior coach in Ontario who had a live and let live attitude did our senior instructor give the nod to crossbows on the 3D course.
I too was of the philosophy I would rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother who shot a crossbow but I took off the blinders and low and behold a whole new attitude toward the sport of archery appeared.

Rainwater
12-28-2006, 10:43 AM
Yes Walksalot I used have a hate on for them too but have softened with age and will let the crossbow fraternity try and solve the problems they might create. So are you saying the BCWF's Insurance policy covers Xbows at shoots or are you guys just signing them in as guests?

Walksalot
12-28-2006, 01:17 PM
Yes Walksalot I used have a hate on for them too but have softened with age and will let the crossbow fraternity try and solve the problems they might create. So are you saying the BCWF's Insurance policy covers Xbows at shoots or are you guys just signing them in as guests?

Rainwater, our club has a policy with a private company.

bcfarmer
12-28-2006, 08:02 PM
[quote=Rainwater]Yes Walksalot I used have a hate on for them too but have softened with age and will let the crossbow fraternity try and solve the problems they might create.

What precieved problems has the crossbow fraternity created?

J_T
12-29-2006, 07:19 AM
There are possibly three components.

1) there are those who feel the crossbow is not a bow, or feel it is too efficient to be used in an archery season,
2) the crossbow often represents an entry point into archery from the rifle and new crossbow hunters often don't realize that there is a required shift in how they hunt, this places them in situations that some might suggest are unethical
3) Conservation Officers report that many crossbow hunters become crossbow hunters within a couple of days of the opening of a season (IE hunter gets an archery only LEH) and this creates difficult situations from an enforcement/ethics/efficient harvest perspective. (They may fire a few bolts to become accurate)

In most jurisdictions, the crossbow is not considered archery tackle with the exception of its use by disabled bowhunters.

JT

Walksalot
12-29-2006, 08:44 AM
For those who don't know:

HISTORY:
Literary and physical evidence suggest that the crossbow originated in China during the 4th century BC, though a type of crossbow called the gastraphetes may have been independently invented in Greece at about the same period. It wasn't until the 10th or 11th centuries AD that the crossbow became a significant military weapon in Europe. It passed from general military service in the 16th century, but its use for hunting and target shooting has continued to the present day.

Onesock
12-29-2006, 10:21 AM
I think this thread had something to do about x-bows at 3-D shoots. I think everyone on here agree's to allow them at 3-D shoots. Lets see what happens.

oldtimer
12-29-2006, 12:02 PM
forgive me if I am wrong but I believe the Merritt 3-D shoot has crossbows in it. WillyQ and I shot behind a group on the second day 2 years ago. Talked to them and compared equipment. It was a good day. I think they took the spot shoot but did not place in the competition ( they shot same category as compound ) Might be wrong but that's how I remember it. Mike

Marc
12-29-2006, 01:18 PM
OK this thread has been edited to try and get it back on track of wether or not X-bows should be allowed for 3D tournaments.

fireonethree
12-29-2006, 01:52 PM
Ok, crossbows and 3D tournaments.

When I hear guys talking about crossbows, it seems like it is a given that they are going to score 10X's all of the time. We all know how small some of those circles can be and often they are not in the exact spot you might think they should be. The difference between a 10 and an 8 is a slight miscalulation in distance or too much morning coffee.:lol:

When you look at the scores that decent compound guys are putting up, they might be 15 points off a perfect match for a round, and I think that these numbers would compare to the crossbow scores.

Good compound shooters are missing 10's 5% of the time (score 285/ 300 round, 30 targets). Crossbows might miss somewhere between 5% and 1%.

I guess my point is that they are shooting much more comparable to compounds than stickbows are to compounds. It just seems wrong to write crossbows off when the compound guys are virtually shooting the same scores. The margin of error is just that much tighter, and makes competition focus on each shot...like a game of eightball, one screw up and the game is over.

But, like I mentioned before, for our tournies, it is not a question of should they shoot, but whether they can they shoot due to insurance coverages for the club.

-FOT-

bcfarmer
12-29-2006, 02:15 PM
i've shot two different times with my crossbow at 3-d shoots
1st time was a 164/200 and 155/200
2nd time 140's/200...different day different mind set

its not that easy unless it is done on a regular basis,with knowledge of 3-d targets and yardage being critical

must say it was the most fun i've had with a group of guys/gals in a long time as well as quite an education.

also it was a local hard core archery member that encourage me to partake.
yes , it meant something to be invited with open arms

bcfarmer
12-29-2006, 02:41 PM
I would also like to apologize for my contribution at getting the original thread of topic

Onesock
12-29-2006, 06:16 PM
OK It seems that x-bows will be welcomed with open arms. Thats good. Now lets see who shows up. If x-bow shooters are really ethical hunters and really love archery the attendance at 3-D shoots should double this year and we will have a huge x-bow class. If most x-bow shooters are opportunitic hunters riding on the hard work of bowhunters you won't see very many x-bow's at the shoots. What do you think.

Elkhound
12-29-2006, 06:22 PM
OK It seems that x-bows will be welcomed with open arms.

Will they? More than 50% said no to them being allowed. I hope they do show up at the events. But it seems the minority will have to go out of their way to make them feel welcome.

Gateholio
12-29-2006, 06:36 PM
OK It seems that x-bows will be welcomed with open arms. Thats good. Now lets see who shows up. If x-bow shooters are really ethical hunters and really love archery the attendance at 3-D shoots should double this year and we will have a huge x-bow class. If most x-bow shooters are opportunitic hunters riding on the hard work of bowhunters you won't see very many x-bow's at the shoots. What do you think.

I think that attending 3D courses doens't have much bearing on how ethical a hunter is, just like attending shooting matches doens't make you a ethical rifle hunter.

Practice makes you more skilled with your weapon, and a person should inded practice, but where and when you do this practice is irelevent to ethics.

Beverly
12-29-2006, 11:43 PM
OK It seems that x-bows will be welcomed with open arms. Thats good. Now lets see who shows up. If x-bow shooters are really ethical hunters and really love archery the attendance at 3-D shoots should double this year and we will have a huge x-bow class. If most x-bow shooters are opportunitic hunters riding on the hard work of bowhunters you won't see very many x-bow's at the shoots. What do you think.

I think as an ETHICAL crossbow hunter...I wouldn't want to hang out any where near someone with a "tude" like that. It's no wonder there is so much tension about it with comments like that. Geez.

Rod
12-30-2006, 12:55 AM
OK It seems that x-bows will be welcomed with open arms. Thats good. Now lets see who shows up. If x-bow shooters are really ethical hunters and really love archery the attendance at 3-D shoots should double this year and we will have a huge x-bow class. If most x-bow shooters are opportunitic hunters riding on the hard work of bowhunters you won't see very many x-bow's at the shoots. What do you think.

I guess I don't fall under the envelope of being an ethical hunter in the archery or rifle catagory since I have never been to a 3D event and haven't been in any competitive rifle shoots in over 15 years.

"Opportunistic hunters riding on the hard work of bowhunters" It's that kind of attitude that keeps me off the 3D courses. I bought my own 3D target last fall for practice with my recurve, at the same time Bev used her crossBOW. End result was a 3D target with a bunch of recurve holes in it from head to tail and a bunch more ALOT closer to the kill zone from the crossbow. No huge difference in the damage between the two.

Did I mention the freezer also has a good store of venison thanks to the young lady's ability with a crossbow?

Take a look at the "check out these sportsmen" thread, ethics have nothing to do with what you are shooting with.

I have a blast practicing with Bev and her crossbow and if some people would quit trying to make xbow shooters uncomfortable you would probably see a rise in archery club/3D shoot memberships.

I'm sure that if a CROSSBOW club had a range setup they would't look down their noses at traditional shooters.

Hunting and shooting of any kind has been getting a bad rap from outside and people need to understand that to save our sport we need to recruit new hunters/shooters and that's not going to happen when people feel uncomfortable or are treated like scumbags because of their choice of equipment.

OK done my novel now :-)

willyqbc
12-30-2006, 09:47 AM
Hunting and shooting of any kind has been getting a bad rap from outside and people need to understand that to save our sport we need to recruit new hunters/shooters and that's not going to happen when people feel uncomfortable or are treated like scumbags because of their choice of equipment.


I agree and as stated several times i support X-bows both on the 3D course and in the bush. However it would seem the point is moot if the clubs can't get insurance to cover it. If the club has no insurance and their is an incident it will be the executive and directors that end up on the hook for it....I'm not willing to put my personal finances on the line for the sake of a 3D shoot. seems to me this needs to be taken up with the insurance companies.

Chris

Walksalot
12-30-2006, 04:41 PM
OK It seems that x-bows will be welcomed with open arms. Thats good. Now lets see who shows up. If x-bow shooters are really ethical hunters and really love archery the attendance at 3-D shoots should double this year and we will have a huge x-bow class. If most x-bow shooters are opportunitic hunters riding on the hard work of bowhunters you won't see very many x-bow's at the shoots. What do you think.

I think there are hunters out there useing THEIR choice of archery tackle who don't go to 3D shoots and do not have a holier than thou attitude who sneak into the woods and pass up or harvest animals which I would walk over a thousand miles of broken glass to just get a look at.

threedhunter
01-20-2007, 02:37 PM
i've shot courses with and behind and ahead of xbows.their bolts don't penetrate as deep as even recurve arrows , even though they may be faster than compounds, their arrows are not any thicker, they are mostly 2219 size shafts,so if you shoot 2117 or carbons you may be smaller in diameter but also penetrate deeper due to your heavier arrows.most damage seems to come from faster carbons not using soap or some kind of lube. burns the foam so it takes some out of the hole when you pull the arrows. the only thing that i really noticed was how loud the xbows were compared to everything else being used.the shooters still had to estimate the distance and PLACE THE SHOT CORRECTLY to be good enough to medal up.didn't seem to matter if scopes were used or not , the better distance guessers won out.

Rainwater
01-23-2007, 11:06 AM
I think Onesock had a subtle point, as an organizer of 3D shoots we regulary get 2 (two) X-bow guys out. They are awesome guys. We need more people to get out, our numbers at shoots are dwindling so get your Xbows out and support these clubs, they do things with the money they earn (ie. wildlife projects, school archery etc) so forget the "tudes" (thanks for that one Bev) and go to the shoots.