Wounded animals ?

[Mooseman]

I have a suggestion and a request.
How many times have you or someone you know wished you had access to a trained blood trailing hound to help you find a wounded animal. Well, I have a suggestion. For 18 years I work with and train my own dogs for that purpose and would love to search your wounded animal.
Every job the dogs do helps them to get better and gain confidence. The trails I lay out for them are good exercise and part of the training but can't beat the real thing.

- ONLY 100% legal situations will be worked on.
- I would be limited to be around Prince George. 300 km or so.
- There would be no $ charge. Donations to offset the travel costs would be appreciated.
- There are times when I am not available due to work. Sorry.
- It would have to be no later then one or max. two days after the shot. Weather permitting.
- No guaranties but we'll try our absolute best.
If there is an interest in this I would be happy to give you further instructions and information about it.

The request:
Is there anyone interested to join me with his/her dog in training for blood trail work. Obviously it would have to be in the PG area. I have a young female Kopov (Slovakian Hound) that I am just starting on some outdoor work. It would be the perfect situation to start your 4legged hunting companion.
I can promise lots of fun and what better way to prepare for the upcoming hunting season.

Smile when hunting! :-D

Mooseman

[Clint_S]

Excellent idea Mike.

I think in some states and countries there are a network of just such people ready to track and recover wounded game.

[Tank]

i might have to put your number on speed dial this season......;)

[Amphibious]

when i can walk again I;ll drop you a line - always up for some K9 work. just let me know how I can help.

[3kills]

well i will hopefully be livin in the cariboo this fall again so if i need ya i will let ya know...

[Thunderstix]

Nice pics in your gallery there Alces Alces Man!

[Mooseman]

Clint - In most of Europe it is an unwritten rule and in some parts it's actually the law. On this continent there are some individuals here and there and in NY state as you mentioned there was actually an organization started called Deersearch Inc. http://www.deersearch.org/introduc.htm (http://www.deersearch.org/introduc.htm) that is growing in to other states as well. Fantastic idea !!
Of cause in this part of the world we have big country and it could not function quite that well. But every animal found that would have been lost otherwise is worth it.
One of the main guys there is John Jeanneney and he wrote a book on the subject. Very nicely done. It will not only help anyone to train a dog for tracking but it will train every person to be a better tracker as well! Well worth the money and it could save someone time money and sleepless nights.
Tracking Dogs for Finding Wounded Deer: http://www.born-to-track.com/book/order-info.htm (http://www.born-to-track.com/book/order-info.htm)

Tank - feel free to call. My # is 964-0511. There are some things that will help to increase the chances of recovery and I can get in to that later.

Amphibious - sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you'll be back in the saddle soon. Thanks for your interest. What kind of dog do you have?

3killslookin4more - hopefully everything you shoot at drops on the spot but if not give me a call.

Thunderstix - Thank you. I was meaning to ask you something. Somewhere you wrote that you get your bear meat tested for trichinoses. Who does that for you there? That would fix the whole problem right there.

Smile when hunting!
Mooseman

[Amphibious]

No dog, yet. Sister was alergic to them and I move so much it wouldn;t be fair to the animal for me it be it's owner. do end up taking care a greqt deal of them while folks are on vacation. Love working with them :-D

[Mooseman]

:idea: Some basics that will help your chances of a successful recovery.

- Be aware when you shoot of where you are and where the animal is. You need to find that spot where the animal was standing later!
- How was the animal standing?
- How did the animal react after your shot?
- Find and mark the place where the animal was standing when you shot your first shot. Usually you will see broken ground where it dug in as it jumped to take off.
- Check an area of about 10 yards around there for blood, other liquids, hair, bone, teeth, claw, hoof or antler pieces. Mark the spot with flagging tape and leave them right there !!! The dog will need that scent to later recognize the individual animal when it gets difficult.
- Now comes the hard part for every hunter. Please walk away! Do not go looking for at least 2 "two" hours unless you find lung blood for sure 100% right there and then wait 45 minutes. If you run out of day time go the next day. This is not easy. I know. But think of it this way. If the animal is dead it will still be dead later too. If you don't wait you will likely jump it and your recovery chances will tumble dramatically. Many times that made the difference of success or failure.
- With a gut shot the animal will almost always die and with the dog you need to wait at least 6 hours. There is a good chance of getting it with the dog but only if the track was not walked on and the scent wasn't spread around by boots and the animal was not jumped out of a bed. Depending of where the shot hit the guts or stomach death can be between 30 minutes to 24 hours or more. In this case it is very important to let the animal "get sick". It gets weaker due to the slow blood loss and the blood poisoning due to the leakage of intestine contents. The longer you can wait the slower the animal will get up and try to get away from you and the dog thus giving you a second chance for a shot.

If you found blood or other sign and looked without finding the animal, try to make notes while things are fresh in your mind. Flag the path the animal took and places like beds and where it stood and dripped blood. Try not to disturb these places since they tell a story and give valuable clues to the trained eye.

Check blood by sight, smell, feel and taste. :o
Lung blood - It is light red in colour. Usually has lots of bubbles but most importantly when rubbed between two fingers you feel texture. Many times you can find it sprayed on the ground in a larger area as the animal is exhaling to clear it's breathing ways.
That is the best sign other then seeing the animal drop.

Gut shot - The blood you will find will get less as the path goes on since fat, skins and intestines are moving around and are blocking the wound. From time to time it starts bleeding again due to the movement and opening of the wound canal. The blood itself will sometimes smell like guts too. You can also find actual stomach or intestine contents.

Just dark red blood can mean many different things and if it's of further interest to you I would be happy to answer questions. I babbled on long enough now. My enthusiasm for the subject just gets me going at times.

One more interesting fact every hunter would want to keep in mind is the amount of blood found on the ground is often deceiving. It looks a lot when it really isn't especially on wet ground or snow.. A game animal can tolerate a 50% blood loss and will only go unconscious after loosing about 75%.
In general they have about 71 ml per kg of life weight. That means that a 222 pound deer has about 7.1 litres of blood. A 1100 pound moose has about 35.5 litres of the red stuff.

Smile when hunting! :D
Mooseman

PS: Amphibious - give me a call when your better.

[3kills]

thanx for some good info mooseman..i hope everythign i shoot drops right on the spot as well but one of my greatest fears when i m huntin is its going to run and i m going to lose it...i never wanna lose a wounded animal..i know it happens but not to be if i can help it....

[416]

Wish l lived a little closer, it's an activity l would enjoy learning.

[Thunderstix]

The Department of Land and Agriculture in Abbottsford will do it for you.....free!

[leftcoast]

Good info Mike. Blood trailing is one of the reasons i got these dogs. As a bow hunter I believe the chances of an animal going a fair distance before it dies or just being wounded are higher than for a rifle hunter. But that said a study in the States a while back said that 17% of animals shot with a bow were lost. the same study said that 17% of animals shot with a rifle were lost as well. I lost a deer once. Still bugs me and that was back in 1968.

=keith=

[Mooseman]

3killslookin4more - I hope I can help.

416 - Where are you? Get that book if you're interested it is a really good source of information and it is soooo much fun to see a dogs nose at work.

Thunderstix - How do you send it? And do you send diaphragm mussel, heart or cheek pieces. (By the way. Love Prince Rupert)!

Hi Keith - dogs at work always blow my mind. This Fall we hunted the gang ranch for deer and the cowboy came by to look for some stray cows. He had two dogs with him and it was a joy to see them at work.

As to the ratio of wounded animals from bowhunting to rifle my experience has been that a bit more is wounded by rifle. Particularly moose that get shot at with fast bullets when they are not standing in the clear. I did a search where two guys shot seven times at a standing bull at 60 yards and did not wound him enough to kill him. He was standing in willows without leaves. We broke up the search after 6 kilometres of swamps, hills with windfalls and falling in to creeks.
Yes it's fun!

Mooseman

[Tuffcity]

Before my old blue tick/B&T passed on I used him for blood trailing lost animals. Fortunately he wasn't used a lot,but he was instrumental in finding 2 deer and a wolf. I kept him on a lead and off he'd go, snorkling away. :) Sure bellowed when it was found.

Good luck with the project Mooseman!

RC

[Thunderstix]

I love Rupert as well. Been here 24 years. You cut the whole tongue out from the very back of the throat, freeze it, pack it with an ice pack, and then send it express, then call them and tell them to watch for it. I also put a note on the outside of the package so that no one left it sitting somewhere over the weekend.

[Schutzen]

Mooseman

I second 3kills post, great info and many thanx for passing it on.

[Mooseman]

How did you guys make out this season? Did anyone train a dog or was thinking about getting one for tracking?

We had some very nice work done by our dogs this year and the highlight was a gut shot moose that we got 7 hours later.

[mark]

i hunt chetwynd every year with some buds and every year im there someone aroud the area wounds an elk or moose. it happened to us once and we were wishing we knew someone with a tracking dog. we would of gladly paid a couple hundred bucks to find the wounded elk. should the situation happen again would you travel to chetwynd if we covered your costs?

[Mooseman]

Well of cause Mark. As stated before in this thread I would be happy to help out. The dogs get better with every real search and with training but nothing beats the real thing.

As for cost. If you would be willing to offset the cost for fuel that would be fantstic. Nothing more.
What time of year are you up there? This might be the only hang up since I am busy until October 20th or so.

BC should have a network of hunters with tracking dogs that everyone can call on.

[timber]

The request:
Is there anyone interested to join me with his/her dog in training for blood trail work. Obviously it would have to be in the PG area. I have a young female Kopov (Slovakian Hound) that I am just starting on some outdoor work. It would be the perfect situation to start your 4legged hunting companion.
I can promise lots of fun and what better way to prepare for the upcoming hunting season.

Smile when hunting! :-D

Mooseman[/quote] Hi mooseman I have been thinking about this kind of stuff for some time now and wood like to learn how. im an outfitter in pg. did i read some where that you are or was a outfitter or guide.

[Mooseman]

Yes timber, I am an outfitter and I would be happy to talk to you about this and if there is a chance show you what I know.

I am in regular contact with some of the best tracking dog handlers in Europe and constantly try to keep up with what's new. I am nothing like what they are since we don't get enough work (50 to 150 searches/ year) for the dogs but we do as good as we can. If I get to do 20 searches a year I am happy. That just means lots more training by making trails.

I'll send you an email.

[Mooseman]

Just wanted to bring this to the top again as I can see the first guys talking about Spring bear.
My offer still stands and If I am not out guiding I will come and help you out.

With the beginning of our Canadian Game Tracker Ass. there are other members now doing the same thing. As we get better organized I will keep you informed of where you might have access to others offering the same help with their dogs.
And don't forget, if you have an interest in the subject of tracking dogs contact me and become part of a really good thing!

[houndogger]

Good on ya Mike. I do not have a dog trained up for deer but I would offer wounded bear service for guys on the Island.

[Mooseman]

"Very" nice of you !!!!

[NEEHAMA]

It sounds great!, i'm not up on my hound stuff but if the wounded game is being chast by a dog team won't they just run forever and them some? i know a bear or cat will tree it's self but a wounded moose? i would hate to see how far that thing may run? i guess if it was dead down the trail a few miles then they could at least recover the beast. that would be a long pack out hey? would the dog handlers help pack out the quarters? what if the hunters were lazy jerk's and said it was just too far to pack out? does the dog handler report them to the officials? they did pay for his gas etc . werid senerio's hey?

we should have a dog tracker contact for each region. but keep it for the good guy's we know. every one knows each other tigh little network. then we could protect the k-9 service. i would just hate to see the "bad apples" out there trying to bring in a dog team for the sh%@ they pull. we have all have heard the stories, booze etc.

[jakerazer]

I lost my first animal last year and It was the most sickening feeling ever!
It was an elk. The shot looked good through the scope but I think I must have hit it to far back. It took off into the bush and I followed :icon_frow (mistake number 1). I picked up a blood trail right away. There was'nt much blood
but I continued to track the animal. I lost the blood about 3 times but I was able to back track and find it.
After about 35 minutes I came to the edge of a low swampy area, A prime spot for animals to head when injured. I tried to work around the swamp quietly.
Suddenly 3 Elk and White tail doe burst from cover I did'nt have time to see which elk was mine so I did'nt want to shoot.
They all dissapeared into the bush. I waited a while and then tried to pick up a trail but there was nothing.
I hope I just cut the Elk slightly and it's still around but........
Later I discovered the Leupold ajustable rear scope mount had come loose on my rifle :evil: . A note to all, be carefull of the Leupold adjustable rear mounts make sure they are tight and loctite'd. Mine was tite but I was doing a fair bit of shooting at -35 and I think the huge temperature changes my rifle went through may have loosened the rear adjustment screws.

[Gateholio]

I sure could have used you several years ago...

I shot a bear at 75 yards one afternoon in the spring. It was an easy shot, I was squatting, and the crosshairs where dead centre on his chest.

At the shot he ran off, and we found no blood, hair etc. Yet it did nt make sense that I missed.

After searching for the remainder of the evening, my buddy asked me if my scope may have been whacked. I found a pop can, set it down at 75 yards, and in failing light, drilled it. No gear issues, and the shooter seemed competent enough...

We came back for 2 full days of searching days, even bringing out his young lab to see if it would help, but I never found that bear.

Didn't sleep much over those days, either...

[Mooseman]

It sounds great!, i'm not up on my hound stuff but if the wounded game is being chast by a dog team won't they just run forever and them some? i know a bear or cat will tree it's self but a wounded moose? i would hate to see how far that thing may run? i guess if it was dead down the trail a few miles then they could at least recover the beast. that would be a long pack out hey? would the dog handlers help pack out the quarters? what if the hunters were lazy jerk's and said it was just too far to pack out? does the dog handler report them to the officials? they did pay for his gas etc . werid senerio's hey?

we should have a dog tracker contact for each region. but keep it for the good guy's we know. every one knows each other tigh little network. then we could protect the k-9 service. i would just hate to see the "bad apples" out there trying to bring in a dog team for the sh%@ they pull. we have all have heard the stories, booze etc.


Well, I don't understand all of what you have written here, but I think you would be quite happy once you know how tracking wounded game is done.

The work with the dog starts on a cold trail of 4 + hours. You can go already after two if all the signs tell you that the animal is dead e.g. lung blood or if you saw where the arrow hit. The dog is on a 30' long leash and works the trail slowly with a very high concentration. The dog will usually end up at the animal with the animal expired at that point. If not, the houndsman or the hunter can hopefully get a shot at the jumped animal. If not, you usually discover signs at that bed where the animal was resting that will tell you what kind of wound you might be dealing with and perhaps it was just a flesh wound. If the signs tell a different story e.g. lots of blood, blood from vital organs, pieces of gut or stomach, you need to wait longer for the animal to weaken and start from that point on again later. Perhaps the next day would be good choice. That call is up to the experienced dog handler.

As hunters we have a responsibility not only to other hunters, the non hunting community or the game warden but most importantly to the CREATURE! If not every effort is made in recovering a wounded animal and packing it out wherever it might be, we have no business to shoot at that animal. Further more I believe that if someone is not prepared to or has arranged for packing out an animal that he/she shot, they should not have that privilege of hunting.
The dog handler has no obligation to pack out someone else's meat but if he or she wishes to help that would be up to them.

[Mooseman]

I lost my first animal last year and It was the most sickening feeling ever!
It was an elk. The shot looked good through the scope but I think I must have hit it to far back. It took off into the bush and I followed :icon_frow (mistake number 1). I picked up a blood trail right away. There was'nt much blood
but I continued to track the animal. I lost the blood about 3 times but I was able to back track and find it.
After about 35 minutes I came to the edge of a low swampy area, A prime spot for animals to head when injured. I tried to work around the swamp quietly.
Suddenly 3 Elk and White tail doe burst from cover I did'nt have time to see which elk was mine so I did'nt want to shoot.
They all dissapeared into the bush. I waited a while and then tried to pick up a trail but there was nothing.
I hope I just cut the Elk slightly and it's still around but........
Later I discovered the Leupold ajustable rear scope mount had come loose on my rifle :evil: . A note to all, be carefull of the Leupold adjustable rear mounts make sure they are tight and loctite'd. Mine was tite but I was doing a fair bit of shooting at -35 and I think the huge temperature changes my rifle went through may have loosened the rear adjustment screws.

I know that feeling and don't care to ever experiance it again either!

[Mooseman]

I sure could have used you several years ago...

I shot a bear at 75 yards one afternoon in the spring. It was an easy shot, I was squatting, and the crosshairs where dead centre on his chest.

At the shot he ran off, and we found no blood, hair etc. Yet it did nt make sense that I missed.

After searching for the remainder of the evening, my buddy asked me if my scope may have been whacked. I found a pop can, set it down at 75 yards, and in failing light, drilled it. No gear issues, and the shooter seemed competent enough...

We came back for 2 full days of searching days, even bringing out his young lab to see if it would help, but I never found that bear.

Didn't sleep much over those days, either...

Especially bears will often not bleed that much. Several times I have been on a check up in a situation just like yours and there was no blood for a 100 yards or so and then it started and we found the bear.
But there are also times even with blood where we don't find the bear. We have gone long ways on bears, up to 5 km (GPS) with steady but little amounts of blood and not gotten them. Three times we got such bears days later with different clients. That sure makes you feel good. The shots had been leg shots. Broken bone and all. It these cases houndogger would be more successful by running that bear down and baying it.

A black bear with a lung shot will go nowhere. I have had clients taking bowshots with the bear taking a total of two steps and after three rounds of chasing the tail they where done. If a bear goes a long way it usually is a bad sign. Or it wasn't that bad at all and he survives.

[greybark]

:-D Hey Mooseman , The idea of a Tracking dog club is great.
;) I don`t have a tracking dog but would like to support you and the Club. Please post "support memberships" costs and where to send the application.

REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

[000buck]

I like the idea in fact i think as a mutual benifit to hunter and hounds/trainer it is magnificent but I'm stuck on the island so i'll have to stick to trackin em down with peroxide.

[Mooseman]

Thank you greybark. Here the info you asked for:

CANADIAN GAME TRACKERS
tracking above & beyond

Our goals are to:

promote the use of trained tracking dogs to recover lost game animals
raise awareness and educate about the value of tracking dogs
provide help and assistance to existing and future tracking dog handlers
offer training seminars
offer dog first aid seminars

The club offers three kinds of memberships:
Individual member $ 25 per year
Family member $ 40 per year
Supportive member by donation (min. $15)Memberships # 1 and 2
Is for people that have an interest in the club and would like to be part of it. They will have voting rights, receive valuable information about suited tracking dog breeds and recommended kennels. Their name and a link to their website can if they wish to be placed on the Canadian Game Trackers, (CGT) website. They will receive support in their challenges as a tracking dog handler.

Membership # 3
Will be for other clubs, individuals or companies that think this is a great idea and would like to support it.

SECRETARY & Treasurer:
Keith Meise, 1490 Curt Rd., Prince George, BC V2N 6W8


If you have questions or would like to join please feel free to e-mail us.

Best Regards,
Michael Schneider
michael@going-hunting.com

[Mooseman]

I like the idea in fact i think as a mutual benifit to hunter and hounds/trainer it is magnificent but I'm stuck on the island so i'll have to stick to trackin em down with peroxide.

Well, we are just starting and in some years down the road perhaps we will have trained losts of new tracking dog handlers. If you need help with a bear, houndogger is your man on the Island.

[NEEHAMA]

quote-"Well, I don't understand all of what you have written here, but I think you would be quite happy once you know how tracking wounded game is done"moose man

oh ok that helps makes sense thanks. it sounds like a great idea. i thought the dog's were off leash. that makes it more clear.

[Mooseman]

Since bear season is on, I would like to offer you around Prince George, Quesnel and Vanderhoof my help with the tracking dogs if you have one getting away wounded. Please read this thread to get some more info on the subject and what I do with the dogs.

My e-mail is michael@going-fishing.com and phone # 250-964-0511

There is no charge. A donation for fuel cost would be great. "Only" legal situations. Anything else needs to be called in to the CO service.

Good hunting,
Michael

[medved]

hello
im not in this part of canada but due to my origins im very interested about that association ...

do you have contacts in quebec or in east part of canada ??

see you

phil

[Mooseman]

Hello Phil,

You have mail ;-)

Best Regards,
Michael

[Mooseman]

An important conservation issue that I would love to see more outfitter and resident hunter support is the tracking of wounded game with a trained dog. If an animal is hit, most will die and could be found with a trained tracking dog.

That number of lost game could be a very important one for us all. It is not only the right thing to do.


As some of you here at HBC are members of CGTA and active supporters, I will post this info for you here. If you have any questions, please contact me.
Through a very generous donation of time and money from an HBC member, we are online and can offer more information through the website. The address is www.canadiangametrackers.com (http://www.canadiangametrackers.com/)
The training of handlers and dogs will be key in the future. Therefore we will offer some seminars this Summer. Dates and places will be posted later on the website and will go out with the newsletter I am working on as well. If you would like to get that newsletter just send me a mail to michael@going-hunting.com (michael@going-hunting.com)

We take the tracking wounded game with dogs very seriously and hope to spark the interest of many over the years to come.

Some of us went on a month long trip to Germany, France, Austria and Czech Rep. last November to get some advanced training with the best trackers in the world. The professional trackers of the "Verein Hischmann" and the "Klub fuer Bayerische Gebirgsschweisshunde". {Sorry for the tongue breakers there}

Best Regards,
Michael

Here some videos an pictures of that journey. I will add more video later if this works.

VIDEO (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v724/MoosemanBC/Tracking/?action=view&current=c712ef01.flv)




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/MoosemanBC/CopyofTaraKeith217.jpg

[Nait Hadya]

"" The training of handlers and dogs will be key in the future""

No,the training of hunters will be key in the future.