Gotta love the snaggers!

[CoqTrophys]

Well, here we are in july, still at least a month away from a sockeye opening and already the snaggers are out. Snagging was designed for the sockeye fishery because nobody could figure out a way to get them to bite. It was NOT designed for catching springs and in mine and many other peoples opinin is an unethical method of fishing. I have heard rumors of DFO closing the Fraser to all fishing for springs because of the number of people choosing to snag fish instead of bar fishing. So just like most other things, because of a certain group of people everyone will have to suffer. Unfortunately the people who will suffer the most are the people who also enjoy it the most. SNAG ON PEOPLE, SNAG ON!!!!

[Wildman]

Yeah, it's pretty pathetic. I find washers and bolts attached to huge clusters of massive trebble hooks every year along the shores of the rivers I fish.... Come on people! You are going to ruin fishing altogether.

[lip_ripper00]

Yeah, it's pretty pathetic. I find washers and bolts attached to huge clusters of massive trebble hooks every year along the shores of the rivers I fish.... Come on people! You are going to ruin fishing altogether.

Hhhhmmmm sort of a double standard starting to show. evidence of animals being killed out of season, and every one gets up in arms when its suggested it is hunters They are poachers. Any one using "clusters of of massive treble hooks" is not partaking in a leagle fishery they are poaching:wink:

[wapiti]

I am one of those "snaggers" you are talking about. Not the ones who use trebles-I adhere to the rules. I use a single barbless hook and a 9 to 10 foot leader. I catch springs and sockeye in season. I also do a lot of flyfishing, and mostly I practice catch and release.
To be quite honest with you, it is rare that I "snag" a fish in the ass or the back. Usually I hook them in the mouth. If I do snag a fish, I break the fish off instead of trying to land it ass first.
I prefer "snagging" as you so succintly put it, to sitting on my ass all day, scratching my hairy belly, drinking beer and belching and farting while I watch the end of my rod-tip as I am "bar fishing". At least with "snagging" I am doing something-I cast and reel in. I find it much more exciting...then again, I am only a lowly "snagger" so I figgure my opinion does not count for much....:twisted:

[boxhitch]

No worries, Wapiti. If you are within the rules, then you are fishing. Fall outside the rules, and then it is snagging or poaching, right ? I'm sure we'll here from the 'ethics' squad on this.

[mark]

I am one of those "snaggers" you are talking about. Not the ones who use trebles-I adhere to the rules. I use a single barbless hook and a 9 to 10 foot leader. I catch springs and sockeye in season. I also do a lot of flyfishing, and mostly I practice catch and release.
To be quite honest with you, it is rare that I "snag" a fish in the ass or the back. Usually I hook them in the mouth. If I do snag a fish, I break the fish off instead of trying to land it ass first.
I prefer "snagging" as you so succintly put it, to sitting on my ass all day, scratching my hairy belly, drinking beer and belching and farting while I watch the end of my rod-tip as I am "bar fishing". At least with "snagging" I am doing something-I cast and reel in. I find it much more exciting...then again, I am only a lowly "snagger" so I figgure my opinion does not count for much....:twisted:

X2, couldnt of said it better myself! Its legal and puts salmon in my freezer, theres enough people out there poaching and breaking laws that you could complain about!

[Wildman]

I am one of those "snaggers" you are talking about. Not the ones who use trebles-I adhere to the rules. I use a single barbless hook and a 9 to 10 foot leader. I catch springs and sockeye in season. I also do a lot of flyfishing, and mostly I practice catch and release.
To be quite honest with you, it is rare that I "snag" a fish in the ass or the back. Usually I hook them in the mouth. If I do snag a fish, I break the fish off instead of trying to land it ass first.
I prefer "snagging" as you so succintly put it, to sitting on my ass all day, scratching my hairy belly, drinking beer and belching and farting while I watch the end of my rod-tip as I am "bar fishing". At least with "snagging" I am doing something-I cast and reel in. I find it much more exciting...then again, I am only a lowly "snagger" so I figgure my opinion does not count for much....:twisted:

I thought that that was is illegal. It is called foul hooking is it not?

[CoqTrophys]

yes snaggers are playing by the rules and that is the way it should be, but that isnt really the point. Weather you are snagging a fish in the ass or in the back or even in the mouth you are still snagging the fish. The only difference between a snag in the belly and a snag in the mouth is pure luck. To me, if the fish didnt bite it doesnt deserve to be caught. I also like the food fishery idea, If it were stricly a "food fishery" then go to safeway and save yourself some time and money. If snagging continues in seasons other than sockeye then nobody will be fishing the river at all. if you want to snag save it for the sockeye opening. I am not saying snagers are "lowly", I am saying it is unethical and a threat to fishing.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

If bottom bouncing for sockeye is unethical,then shooting a still sitting grouse on a logging road with a 12 gauge is a crime.It is funny how the guys that condem this ''meat''fishery the most, are the ones that have never done it.I hope you realize you still have to cast,fight the fish and net it .

[BlacktailStalker]

IT IS ILLEGAL TO:
- wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring,
northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid.

The end.
Move on.

[NaStY]

IT IS ILLEGAL TO:
- wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring,
northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid.

The end.
Move on.


Maybe we should all go out and buy nets then..........

[Steeleco]

Just a reminder of rule 6 before this get really of the rails.
6. There is to be no frowning upon a member for the method of hunting used, or the sex, age of the animal. If it's legal then it's legal no if, and, or, but!

Fishing, hunting, same thing around here!!

[o2fish2day]

X2, couldnt of said it better myself! Its legal and puts salmon in my freezer, theres enough people out there poaching and breaking laws that you could complain about!


x3 - If the DFO dont' like it then they can change the rules. They don't need to close the fishery. Just and excuse....Anyways the recreational fishery catches in one open season what the commercial guys take in a single day. It's strange everyone focuses on recereational fishery at all...how about they close the comercial fishing 1 hour early. LOL!

[CoqTrophys]

BIGHUNTERFISHIf bottom bouncing for sockeye is unethical,then shooting a still sitting grouse on a logging road with a 12 gauge is a crime.It is funny how the guys that condem this ''meat''fishery the most, are the ones that have never done it.I hope you realize you still have to cast,fight the fish and net it .

Hunting and fishing have 2 totally different objectives. Fishing is about fooling a fish into striking at a fly or lure or whatever you want to throw at them. Hunting is about finding or stalking and placing a perfect ethical kill shot on chosen game. it is nearly impossible to compare the two because they are hardly the same.

[CoqTrophys]

I also find it hard to believe that people who are so passionate about one of there favorite past times are supporting the reason why it will be shut down.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I have said over and over again,this is a ''special'' meat fishery,the majority of guys that partake in this, realize it, and only use this method on Sockeyes.If you buy salmon at SafeWay do you think they were taken more ethically than this?We have an oppurtunity to bring home excellent tasting salmon that we would otherwise not be able to get unless we bought it from a supplier that got it from nets.I cant see the problem if the runs can sustain it.There are many diffrent types of fishing,do you realize you can scuba dive and shoot some species of fish with a spear gun.Perhaps you could open your mind a little ,in some Provinces you can shoot bears over bait,and it is legal .Does it make it ethical that depends on the person.DFO is fully aware that people are flossing sockeyes,they are also aware of how much money they make with licenses and how the fishery is good for the local economy.

[pikey]

I was looking at some stats today from the DFO and the total catch of salmon was about 97% commercial and native net fishing and rec. fishing was 3% or so.

Now whether you like BB'ing or not, you got to wonder why all the focus is on the rec. fishermen if this really is about conservation with stats like that.

[wapiti]

[quote=CoqTrophys;165257] Weather you are snagging a fish in the ass or in the back or even in the mouth you are still snagging the fish. The only difference between a snag in the belly and a snag in the mouth is pure luck.

I differ with you on this. If it were pure luck, then one would assume that 50% of the time you would hook the fish in the ass or the back rather than the mouth...and that is NOT the case. As I said earlier, it is rare that I hook one somewhere other than the mouth.

I also agree with the other members about:

a) flossing sockeye gives sportsmen the opportunity to get out there, and catch fish using a fishing rod where other methods of sport-fishing would be unsuccessful

b) every pound of fish we sportsmen catch generates about 100 times the revenue per pound in dollars for the local economy than what the commercial guys generate. Think of all the gear, guides, gas stations, motels, restaurants that make $$$ when the fish are running in the Fraser.

c) If sportsmen were not on the river, fishing AND WATCHING what was going on, imagine the s%*t that would go down with the netting on the river. The only reason why it is not a total slaughter right now, the only reason why there are any fish left out there is because sportsfishermen are out there and are witness to the debauchery that is the native "food fishery" and we are speaking out about it!! If you were to outlaw flossing, about 90% of the guys who fish in August and September on the Fraser would be gone....the native netters would go nuts and in 4-5 years you would have no sockeye in the river.

[CoqTrophys]

I'm not blaming the depleeting salmon runs on snaggers thats not what i'm saying. I am well aware of where the problem really lies. the point i am making is that it is unethical and hardly a sport in my eyes. Not to mention the fights that happen over a fish. You cant tell me that you actually think its a fun and "fair chase" way of fishing? I am also concerned about the people who are as we speak snagging reds in the fraser out of sockeye season. They are the people who threaten the closure of the river to sport fisherman. I think the main concern DFO has about people snagging springs is that they are also snagging early sockeye and coho where if you were bar fishing this would not happen.

[CoqTrophys]

wapiti. do you actually know what happens when you floss and the reason the hook is most of the time in the mouth? Not to offend you just wondering?

[wapiti]

I agree on you about the fights-they are a negative part of an otherwise great fishery. I am lucky in that I have a boat and can get away from the crowds. My wife and I and our nephews and nieces usually go fishing every day of the season for sockeye and we enjoy it very much.
I find there is challenge in it-you gotta find your spots every year. You gotta be able to "read " the water to figure out where the fish are. I get a thrill every time before I set the hook on a fish when I feel the line come tight, wondering if it is a sockeye or a spring or a log or a rock. There is a lot of camraderie out there. You stand in the river, staying cool while the rest of the valley cooks in the heat. You get to know the guys out there. I have fished all over the world-Europe, New Zealand, Australia and all over Canada, yet I still find the sockeye fishing very enjoyable. A lot of other guys do too...I don't know if you have ever tried it, but my suggestion is that if you haven't then get a buddy to take you out with a boat, away from the crowds, find your own bar where you are not crowded and give it a go. I am sure you will enjoy it. You sound like a sportsman at heart, and I believe that it is sport. It gives fish a fighting chance to break your line, throw the hook and get away. At the end of the day, if you do land it, you just gotta slip the barbless hook out and let 'er go and have a try at another one!!!:-D

[wapiti]

wapiti. do you actually know what happens when you floss and the reason the hook is most of the time in the mouth? Not to offend you just wondering?
Yeah, I do...I also know that at the end of the day, it is me with a single barbless hook that the fish can throw easily by jumping, or it can wrap me on a rock or a log. It has a chance. That is what makes it sport fishing. It got zero chance with a net that it can't escape.
Do you know what happens to a steelhead in the Vedder River when you cast a fly at it or drift a pink worm past it as it lies in the current behind a boulder? Nothing the first half a dozen times. After that it gets pissed off and goes after the hook. You make it mad. You provocate it into biting. It does not bite because it is hungry. You piss it off and MAKE it bite. Is that much different?
I have fished with lures in Queensland, Australia where the fish were so naive that they literally attacked anything you tossed out there. In hordes. If you splashed the water with your hand, they would come to the boat and swarm around, trying to bite your fingers. Does catching a fish under such circumstances require skill?? Is it "SPORT"??? I think not. I think it is harder to catch a sockeye with flossing under a lot of circumstances than it is to catch such fish...

[steel_ram]

Do you know what happens to a steelhead in the Vedder River when you cast a fly at it or drift a pink worm past it as it lies in the current behind a boulder? Nothing the first half a dozen times. After that it gets pissed off and goes after the hook. You make it mad. You provocate it into biting. It does not bite because it is hungry. You piss it off and MAKE it bite. Is that much different?

Uhhh, yeah. Coaxing a fish to take hook, either by food or triggering an attack instinct is kind of the point. I do agree by an earlier point, about flyfishing in rivers. Often "the take" is no differnent than "flossing". But, at least flossing takes some skill and provides a means of harvesting an otherwise unusable fishery and probably more importantly, selling licences and gear.

What I call serious snagging are the guys with the weighted treble, often on a jigging lure, jerking their hooks accross likely holds. Impaling the fish anywhere.

[NaStY]

Update: The non-tidal waters of the Fraser River from the CPR Bridge at
Mission, BC upstream to the Highway No. 1 Bridge at Hope, BC are no fishing for
sockeye.

DFO staff have observed fishing activity at Wellington and Grassy Bars and the
vast majority of anglers at Wellington Bar were bar fishing while significant
numbers of anglers at Grassy Bar were bottom bouncing.

Given the low forecast returns of Early Stuart sockeye and the potential for
adverse migration conditions DFO requires FULL compliance from the recreational
community to avoid using fishing methods that catch sockeye. The Sport Fish
Advisory Committee for the Upper Fraser Valley advises that bottom bouncing is
strongly discouraged during the migration of Early Stuart sockeye and while
a no fishing for sockeye restriction is in place.

Recreational fishing opportunities for sockeye are anticipated on Summer run
sockeye towards the end of July. DFO staff will determine these opportunities
in consultation with the SFAB.

[Silent Wolf]

Sure bottom snagging oh i mean Flossing sure is legal....HHHHMMMMM not, how can you say it is a legally hooked fish to when the hook is in the outside of the mouth?? To me that would mean the fish was lined aka snagged in the mouth.

I guess to all you flossers a fish hooked in the Max to the mouth all taste the same. Just like one hooked in the arse tastes the same.

Well it is going to be the flosser's problem to when they close the river down.....

If the so called Meat fishery was went for only the Fraser then why in the hell do guys fish the Keith Wilson run on the Vedder and long line them??

Hell if you want to floss fish, I have a better way. Just ask and I will lend you my Gill net 80' long...... Corks, lead line and boat are already to go!!!!!!! It has about a 5 inch square so any Sockeye swimming bye will be in the net, she fills up fast:wink:


Flossing is Poaching...............................


SW

[wapiti]

Sure bottom snagging oh i mean Flossing sure is legal....HHHHMMMMM not, how can you say it is a legally hooked fish to when the hook is in the outside of the mouth?? To me that would mean the fish was lined aka snagged in the mouth.

I guess to all you flossers a fish hooked in the Max to the mouth all taste the same. Just like one hooked in the arse tastes the same.

Well it is going to be the flosser's problem to when they close the river down.....

If the so called Meat fishery was went for only the Fraser then why in the hell do guys fish the Keith Wilson run on the Vedder and long line them??

Hell if you want to floss fish, I have a better way. Just ask and I will lend you my Gill net 80' long...... Corks, lead line and boat are already to go!!!!!!! It has about a 5 inch square so any Sockeye swimming bye will be in the net, she fills up fast:wink:


Flossing is Poaching...............................


SW

I dunno, call me stupid but it seems to me that someone who gillnets in the river, calling flossers "poachers" is sorta like the kettle calling the pot black. You'd catch more fish in your net in an hour than ten "poaching" flossers would catch in a season. Those ******* flossers would have the option of releasing their fish to continue to swim upstream. The fish in the net would be dead...only thing they'd be good for is $$$$ on the market.Harsh. Feel sorry for the poor netters, having to compete with those evil flossers.:wink:

[Mr. Dean]

IT IS ILLEGAL TO:
- wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring,
northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid.

The end.
Move on.

This is where my head-space is.

I guess it boils down to what the definition of foul hooking is. I can't seem to find it in the Guide. Nor do I find anything that pertains to Sockeye fishing methods for in the rivers.

ALSO. If DFO does infact have an issue with it, then they should address IT and leave the 'other' guy's alone. If it is something that has run amuck, then they are the ones who should shoulder the blame for not enforcing existing rules or modifying the old rules into new ones.

I read more from the regs that makes me feel that this is an illegal activity. I read NOTHING that condones it. If there is; point me to the page(s).

[boxhitch]

The simple fact the there is a river fishery for a species that is not actively feeding, suggests that the DFO is alright with the methods used. Hooking by the mouth usually will mean a healthy fish, caught or released. Rip a treble through the belly, and things might not wind up the ssame.

I always have had trouble with the term 'sport' fishing. Sport ? Just because someone can do something to vary the difficulty and create a challenge for themselves ? Its a hobby that puts meat in the pan. IMO
Now, I'll go back to tying up leaders.

[jakerazer]

Hmmm I wonder if the same people that want to ban Qauds for hunting want to ban the " Snaggers"? It's also interesting to note that the same attitude that prevail's on a lot of the snagging bars is'nt much different from what i see here. If it's legal it's ok. I don't like qaud hunting .i think it should be banned but it is'nt so move on boy's. When the goverment feels it's time to stop the Sockey fishery they will stop it and then allocate more fish to the natives for thier food use.:wink:

[Wildman]

IT IS ILLEGAL TO:
- wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring,
northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid.

The end.
Move on.


I dont know what I'm missing here, but.....as far as I understand it, through the regs. Snagging is foul hooking and foul hooking is illegle. Blacktailstalker took it right out of the regs.

[ratherbefishin]

Determining ''ethics''is dificult-and from a pure resource management point of view-it doesn't matter if a fish was caught in a net, on bait,fly,hardware or snagged-all that counts is sufficient escapement.
But to illustrate the complexity of ethics-is a person who catches and releases-knowing full well a percentage of released fish will sucumb,more ''ethical'' than the snagger who kills each fish he catches until he limits and goes home?
ps-I do not river fish-my salmon are caught trolling in the chuck

[Farmer]

I bar fish for springs before sockeye season and bottom bounce for sockeye during sockeye openings. I have caught (and released) a sockeye on the bar rod, and caught several springs while bottom bouncing. I enjoy being out on the river. Sometimes it is nice to be active and bottom bounce, at other times sitting in a chair barfishing is OK. Catching a spring while bottom bouncing is a lot more difficult than while bar fishing. We have never needed to chase a bar hooked spring with the boat ( I guess having 16-20 oz. of lead hanging out of the fishes mouth takes a lot of fight out of even larger springs), but most of the time a spring hooked while bottom bouncing will require you to jump in the boat and chase it before you are spooled or run out of bar to run downsteam on. While not a heavily experienced bar fisher, we have landed fish up to 28 lbs. without moving 20 yards down the beach. I can think of only 4 over the last 6 years that we have landed without a boat chase while bottom bouncing. And quite often you cannot get into the boat and off the beach before the fish is broken off to avoid spooling. I guess I just like fishing and if it is legal, I am OK with it ,but I will avoid bbing until sockeye are open.

Just my .02$

Gord

[Elkhound]

well 4 pages and so far civil. Nice job people. I love a good debate. I too have a problem with snagging a fish.....I just feel that I would be breaking the regs by hooking it anywhere but in the mouth.

[NEEHAMA]

I'm a snagger and proud of it !

i call it flossing, it has a nicer ring to it don't you think!

[lip_ripper00]

Hey Nasty, how many days did we fish last season with a fish cop beside us?:mrgreen:

[CoqTrophys]

For all the people out there who snag and think it is ok because they only keep the ones they hook in the mouth always remember it was still snagged. Weather you are keeping fish that are hooked in the ass or hooked in the mouth you are still keeping a snagged fish. The only difference is that DFO cant prove the fish didnt bite it if it is hooked in the mouth. And believe me in water with only inches of visibuility your odds are slim to none the fish actually attacked your Bare hook.

[Gus]

I have a question. Now I'm not trying to criticize either way here, and I probably dont understand the issue completely, so someone, please enlighten me, but what exactly is the difference between watching a fish sitting idle in the current and carefully laying your line out, and skillfully "flossing" it through its mouth and ultimatly hooking it, as opposed to watching an animal feeding along, and unexpectantly putting a bullet or arrow into it?

[bighornbob]

Coqtrophy

DFO sees it as legal so why are you aruing your point here. Some people see the hunting of does as unethical, others see using rifles as unfare but all are legal in some areas. Some Flyfishermen think using a gang troll and a worm as unethical. See where I am going with this.

If you are so against it, lobby to the DFO to ban it not here.

BHB

[ratherbefishin]

As in the case of all the anti hunters decrying the use of ''high powered rifles''-what would they like us to use-low powered ones?
To me ,ethics mean taking an game animal,bird,or fish,cleanly and humanely,treating it with respect by taking care of it right to the table.As long as the species is not endangered,and the laws are obeyed-one method of harvesting is not ''more ethical'' than another.One might even make the case that being''sporting''has no place in ethics either-ie using light lines and playing a fish to exhaustion where it has less chance of recovery than had one used heavier tackle, brought it in quickly and released it.

[Ken the Kanuck]

This kind of reminds me about worm fishing versus flyfishing. Fishing with worms is perfectly legal in most places, but we all know that when a trout takes a worm it is much more likely to swallow or suck the worm in and cause itself to be hooked deep rather than when using a fly or an artifical lure which the fish tend to take in the lip. Obviously you cannot release a worm hooked fish as described as it will die ( no matter how small or big it is ) where when you fish with a fly or a lure you can normally let the fish go with a pretty good chance of survival.

So I guess it really depends what floats your boat? Me if I want to eat I'll use a worm although 99.9% of the time I don't, also if I have some kid with me and I want a fish for him I'll use whatever legal method I can to get him his fish. Where if it's just me I don't really care if I have a hook on that lure or not.

Pretty hard to compare the 2 as they are as apples are to oranges, but I don't think we should trash talk one another, even if we do things different.

KTK

[talver]

guys its called FLOSSING

[kgriz]

I assume that everybody is referring to what has sarcastically named "flossing" whereas a long leader with a single hook and a bit of wool for show is bellied in the current and ends up running through a salmons mouth while it is gaping in the current while resting. Anyone who I have talked to who fishes with this method chuckles and says that it is obviously snagging but also is impossible to prove other than WAY more salmon are being caught now with this new technique. After watching many salmon being gaffed and netted at Moricetown or many other places and then sold instead of eaten I have a hard time condemning somebody who technically stays within the rules to have a couple for home with some sport involved as well. It is a very slippery slope to condemn flossing while thinking that annoying a salmon to snap at a fly or spin and glo casted the same way is OK.

[kgriz]

As I thought more about this snagging issue it became clear to me that the real underlying issue about flossing is whether you intend to keep your fish or choose to release it. Personally I do both; sometimes I let fish go and more often than not I bonk them and eat them with my family ( especially ocean fishing a couple times a year ). Many people are eager to jump on the purist band-wagon assuming that fly-fishing is somehow "better" because of increased challenge and increased catch and release tactics. I'm not sure the salmon fishery as a whole would agree. Lets assume that you are a salmon on a might journey of hundreds or perhaps a thousand kilometers. Then somebody catches you, tires you out for 10 to 20 min. and then assumes because you manage to swim off you are a-ok. Common sense suggests no and research is patchy at best. I would suspect that mortality rates are higher than predicted. If the person is a good fly-fisherperson this could happen to 1-5 salmon per day.
Now somebody who intends to keep one uses the flossing technique because it is more successful, catches one, bonks it and enjoys it at home. Be careful in deciding which way impacts the fish numbers more. I would suggest that most people don't truly consider this before they let their egos do the talking of who is a "better" fisherman.

[Mr. Dean]

I have a question. Now I'm not trying to criticize either way here, and I probably dont understand the issue completely, so someone, please enlighten me, but what exactly is the difference between watching a fish sitting idle in the current and carefully laying your line out, and skillfully "flossing" it through its mouth and ultimatly hooking it, as opposed to watching an animal feeding along, and unexpectantly putting a bullet or arrow into it?

2 activities each having their own legislation that keeps them apart and seperate ie; methods used.

__________________________________________________ __________________________


So I've done some talking. It looks as if DFO's hands are tied. I get the vibe that they (fisheries) believe that flossing is indeed snagging and that snagging is an illegal act of catching a Salmon.

Like others have stated, it's tough to prove in court that a fish caught in the mouth, didn't bite.

Gear restrictions will be of little or no use because ANY gear can be adapted to 'floss'. Hali sticks ---> fly rods. 20' leaders or 20" leaders...

The message that I got was that if river fishermen don't pay heed the latest notice... Expect BIG changes to come down the pipe.





Changes that wouldn't be a problem proving in court.


The conversation that I had was with someone within the Ministry and was a 'privelaged' conversation, that could not be quoted.

Anyone else got inside gossip?

[NaStY]

Hey Nasty, how many days did we fish last season with a fish cop beside us?:mrgreen:

I dont know what your talking about:wink::wink::wink:

[lip_ripper00]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYJOCA)
I dont know what your talking about:wink::wink::wink:








[ (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112_ZSYYYYYYJOCA&utm_id=7920)

[Gateholio]

It's unlikely you will see me do much fishing on the Fraser (except for a planned Sturgeon trip today that I ended up unable to make and another Sturgeon trip later that I *will* make) ....And I'm not that passionate an angler these days, although I was, at one time...So I dont' care much, but of course I will add something....8)

I think it's spelled right out in the regs-

If flossing= willfully attempting to foul hook a fish- then it's illegal. Period.

From what I read on these posts, most "flossers" are determined to just that. It doesn't really matter to me if they release the ones caught in the tail as opposed to caught near or in the mouth- If they are trying to foul hook, it 's illegal. Pretty clear...

[Wildman]

It's unlikely you will see me do much fishing on the Fraser (except for a planned Sturgeon trip today that I ended up unable to make and another Sturgeon trip later that I *will* make) ....And I'm not that passionate an angler these days, although I was, at one time...So I dont' care much, but of course I will add something....8)

I think it's spelled right out in the regs-

If flossing= willfully attempting to foul hook a fish- then it's illegal. Period.

From what I read on these posts, most "flossers" are determined to just that. It doesn't really matter to me if they release the ones caught in the tail as opposed to caught near or in the mouth- If they are trying to foul hook, it 's illegal. Pretty clear...

Exactly.....but I'm not against a guy or gal adding some bright yarn to their hook and trying to skillfully floss it through/past a fish to hook it in the mouth. It's the foul hooking that bugs me! When a fisherman is on a gravel bar and is jerking his/her rod as hard as they can and foul hooking a salmon in the back or tail and then reefing it in.......that's bad. I'll admit it, Ive done it...but I was a kid. I wouldnt do it know, even to land my kids fish. A responsible fisherman wouldnt fish this way. And it should be frowned upon. Our system isnt perfect. If a person were to hook a Coho, lets say, in a closed Coho area, and its hooked so bad that there is no chance in the fish surviving than I do not believe that it should be thrown back. But, how do you prove it? You don't, a picture maybe? But that isnt even enough proof. A video yeah, but who's going to attempt to tape every fish they land, not me.
Back to the thread.......I'm against foul hooking.

[wapiti]

I think it's spelled right out in the regs-

If flossing= willfully attempting to foul hook a fish- then it's illegal. Period.

From what I read on these posts, most "flossers" are determined to just that. It doesn't really matter to me if they release the ones caught in the tail as opposed to caught near or in the mouth- If they are trying to foul hook, it 's illegal. Pretty clear...

I think that if all "flossers" were clearly breaking the law, then the DFO would be required to do something about it. There are thousands of people a day "flossing" on the river when the sockeye season opens. I don't see anybody being charged for POACHING by the DFO because they floss...they get charged for other reasons-having trebles or barbs on their hook, but not for the act of flossing.

If flossing really is such a clear breach of the fishing regulations, then there should be a clearly worded ban on flossing in the fishing regs. There is none that I can see...therefore it is a legal activity as far as I am concerned. If they outlaw it, I'll be the first one to stop doing it.

[Farmer]

....8)

I think it's spelled right out in the regs-

If flossing= willfully attempting to foul hook a fish- then it's illegal. Period.

From what I read on these posts, most "flossers" are determined to just that. It doesn't really matter to me if they release the ones caught in the tail as opposed to caught near or in the mouth- If they are trying to foul hook, it 's illegal. Pretty clear...

This is where this rational is wrong. Sockeye fisherman are not trying to foul hook the fish. They are trying to hook the fish in the mouth. Unfortunately some people think that they need a big hookset at the end of the drift and this can result in a much higher incidence of hooking a fish somewhere other than the mouth.

Gord

[NEEHAMA]

i've enjoyed the last three seasons of flossing with my good friends. 99% of all the fish we have landed were hooked in the mouth. rarely and i mean very rarely did anyone foul hook a fish. and they were gently sent back on their way.

Unless the fish are going up river backwards, flossing is not intending to fould hook anything.

[Gateholio]

[quote=wapiti;165845]I think that if all "flossers" were clearly breaking the law, then the DFO would be required to do something about it.

Not really. RCMP arent' handing out tickets to people riding bicycles wiht no helmets, either. They don't arrest peopel that they find in possesion of one joint, either.

It may be an unenforcable law in this regard, since unless the person states that "I was attempting to snag a fish" there is no way to prove his intentions.

Therefore it's unenforceable, as a judege woudl say "the guy has a rod, a reel, some line and a hook, sounds to me liek he was fishing"8)

The fact that it is unenforceable done's make it legal, just not enforced.

[Gateholio]

This is where this rational is wrong. Sockeye fisherman are not trying to foul hook the fish. They are trying to hook the fish in the mouth.
Gord


If they are trying to "hook a fish in the mouth" they are trying to SNAG. They just happen to be attempting to snag it in the mouth.

[Gateholio]

Unless the fish are going up river backwards, flossing is not intending to fould hook anything.

Unless your intention is to "catch" the fish by hainvg it bite your lure, then it is snagging, regardless of where the hook ends up on the fishs body.8)

[wapiti]

[quote=Gatehouse;165881][quote]

"Not really. RCMP arent' handing out tickets to people riding bicycles wiht no helmets, either. They don't arrest peopel that they find in possesion of one joint, either."



Unlike the examples you used here, flossing is not an "isolated" or "random" occourence. Hundreds of people line up along the banks of the river, flossing for days on end. Try getting a few hundred people together and have them smoke joints in public all day or ride down the highway in a group with no helmets...cops will be thicker than flies on s**t:wink:

Therefore, if the DFO wanted this activity stopped, it would be easy enough.
1. outlaw flossing in the regs
2. patrol the river during the season, and throw the book at the first few people they catch flossing.

Flossing would stop, just like that.

The fact they do nothing of the sort says to me they have no problem with it and condone it. If the DFO condone it, it is not illegal and therefore I see no problem with it and neither should anyone else, for that matter....I should not be criticized by my fellow fishermen for enjoying a legal fishing activity:-D

[Gateholio]

Unlike the examples you used here, flossing is not an "isolated" or "random" occourence. Hundreds of people line up along the banks of the river, flossing for days on end. Try getting a few hundred people together and have them smoke joints in public all day or ride down the highway in a group with no helmets...cops will be thicker than flies on s**t

They are examples of laws that police don't bother wiht because the end result woudln't be productive. Just like it woudl be unproductive to charge flossers under present laws, since you couldn't prove they were intending to snag unless they are using weighted treble hooks on cables or they admitted to attempting to snag..8)



Therefore, if the DFO wanted this activity stopped, it would be easy enough.
1. outlaw flossing in the regs
2. patrol the river during the season, and throw the book at the first few people they catch flossing.


Which they may do. I have no clue, and don't really care.



The fact they do nothing of the sort says to me they have no problem with it and condone it. If the DFO condone it, it is not illegal and therefore I see no problem with it and neither should anyone else,

"Condoning" and "unlawful" are two completely seperate things.

Perhaps the reason they condone it is becuase flossing charges woudl not stick, since, as I said before, you woudl have to prove intent to a judge, and the only way to prove this intent is if the person admitted it.


....I should not be criticized by my fellow fishermen for enjoying a legal fishing activity

Is it legal? Or just condoned? Or unenforcable. that is the big question.

[Wildman]

See pages 8 and 9........ http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/fish/pdf/fish-synopsis_2007-08_general.pdf

pg.8 has the definition of snagging/foul hooking and pg.9 under " It's unlawful To....."

[Gateholio]

Yeah, it talks about foul hooking being in a part of the body other than the mouth. What is your point?

Most fishing techniques involve having the fish actively bite your hook, not just dragging it through thier mouths until they hook one, which is what flossing appears to be.

I like NEEHAMA's repsonse a few pages ago "I've been snagging for years, but flossing sounds nicer" It's honest.:-D

[NEEHAMA]

most salmon are not "caught" or "snagged". they are netted up by commercial fisheries anyway. so if your out to land a few sockeye, i say GET ER DONE!!! snag, catch, floss, spear,

just get your two fish. don't buy them they taste better if you don't.

[ratherbefishin]

Who decides whether a fish caught in the mouth using any thing other than natural bait [ie yarn,feathers,hardware,plastic]on a hook was snagging- or the fish mistook it for bait or struck it out of annoyance?Clearly,a fish foul hooked was snagged-but the problem becomes a bit more complecated when the hook is in the fish;s mouth-even a bare hook-which can be used when trolling for pinks

[Wildman]

My point is it's illegal to foul hook a fish in any part of the body besides the mouth and that if a fish is hooked in such a manor it must be let go. It clearly states that foul hooking is an ilegal way to fish. My opinion is if you fish that way, obviously you don't adhere to the regulations and ethics of fishing, which in turn leads me to believe that such peoples ethics would filter through to other sports/activites including hunting. I am not acusing anyone of a crime here. I'm just trying to understand how it is possible that certian people think that it is ok and not illegle.

[chinooker]

no wonder the granola eating antis are slowly chipping away our rights to practice the best pastimes in the world. We are a house divided and we all no what happens to those.

[Wildman]

no wonder the granola eating antis are slowly chipping away our rights to practice the best pastimes in the world. We are a house divided and we all no what happens to those.

Just so everyone knows, I'm far from a granola eater.....I'm a logger, that would be hard to do (be both granola eater/logger).

[NEEHAMA]

It always comes back to this army of granola's launching an attack on our rights doesn't it......i'm not scared!

[loki]

no wonder the granola eating antis are slowly chipping away our rights to practice the best pastimes in the world. We are a house divided and we all no what happens to those.

X2. Couldn't agree more.

Sadly I see this same scenario repeating with every hunting/fishing group, and as the division and squabbling continues in these circles (which all have the same goal, but continue to fight and point fingers) it alienates any potential hunter/fisher looking at a certain group, and makes it easier for any antis to lobby against our activities.

Just my opinion from watching activities.

[Gateholio]

Wildman, thanks for the clarification

[Gateholio]

most salmon are not "caught" or "snagged". they are netted up by commercial fisheries anyway. so if your out to land a few sockeye, i say GET ER DONE!!! snag, catch, floss, spear,

just get your two fish. don't buy them they taste better if you don't.


More honesty, which is refreshing...8)

[Steeleco]

I find it funny that we're bantering fishing rights and wrongs, I can only imagine how hot this topic is on the fishing forums :wink::wink:

[o2fish2day]

I have serious reason to believe that both bottom bouncing and the word "flossing" were introduced by the DFO to deliberatly create contraversy amongst the recreational fishers while leaving the fishing open just so they can close it and claim they are managing the fishery. (since the recreational fishers are the only group that either listens to them or doesn't have any political power)

We are all sheep playing right into their hands fighting over the ethics of 3% of the fishery....and they are laughting their asses off.

Then again I am a conspiracy theorist. LMAO!

[Gateholio]

[QUOTE]I have serious reason to believe that both bottom bouncing and the word "flossing" were introduced by the DFO to deliberatly create contraversy amongst the recreational fishers

You may want to explain your reasons, to give your theory more credibility.


We are all sheep playing right into their hands fighting over the ethics of 3% of the fishery....and they are laughting their asses off.

I could give a rats ass about the "ethics"

I think many of the fishing regs (especially the "no retention/single barbless fly/no bait/ etc etc) rules are hooey, ut into place because elitists demanded it, just like some elitists think that *thier* way of hunting is the *only* way.

i just would prefer people to be honest, like NEEHAMA is. If you are dragging a line through a river, hoping to snag a fish in the mouth, it's still snagging. As he said, go git r dun..Spear them if you want (and I can tell you that traditional spear fishing is (for the most part) alot harder than catching a fish on a rod and reel....8)

Many of the laws ned to be looked at agian (why is it illegal for a free diver to spear fish in fresh water for one thing? It's not bloody easy!! Do people think that there will be a huge run of guys buying wetsuits and practicing breathing to spearfish, enough that the fish stocks will be hurt???)

[NaStY]

I find it funny that we're bantering fishing rights and wrongs, I can only imagine how hot this topic is on the fishing forums :wink::wink:

I cant believe this topic is still going and going and going an going..........

[pikey]

The Rec fishermen take such a small portion of the total catch, meanwhile the river getting netted end to end.

I think a lot of sport fishers are at there Bull saturation point with this and have decided that they are just not going to comply.

[abbyfireguy]

Holy crap. And I thought Gatehouse wasn't interested in fishing ????
Sure is posting alot about something that he doesn't care about...
Oh well, such is life...
I"ve guided on the Fraser and Harrison for the past three seasons and bottom bounce sometimes during sockeye season...
We have been very involved flyfishing on the Harrison and getting sockeye to take flies on a very regular basis ...
People that thought sockeye don't bite in fresh water are dead wrong ..The clear water of the Harrison River enables all the salmon species to chase colored and bright presentations.
With regards to the Fraser flossing methods,,the original warnings were given by DFO to ask fishers to not floss during non sockeye season(most of the summer)..
Springs can be quite successfully caught back trolling or back bouncing Kwik fish lures and presenting larger spin and glows from set rods either in a rod holder in an anchored boat or in a rod holder on shore....
Bottom bouncing as your only method of fishing the Fraser and other waterways will end up having salmon fishing closed period...
If you must floss, keep it to the limited sockeye season,especially in clear water there are other excellent methods that preclude flossing.....
Also, just to reiterate the regs, Snagging(foul hooking )is in areas other than the mouth.Regs are regs and we should realize not everyone interprets regs the same way..
I started using full circle hooks two years ago and have yet to hook a fish anywhere but in the mouth using any method of fishing...HHMMMM.....
Bottom line , get out and experiment with other methods of catching salmon besides flossing, it works and is very rewarding.....:wink:

[Gateholio]

Holy crap. And I thought Gatehouse wasn't interested in fishing ????
Sure is posting alot about something that he doesn't care about...
Oh well, such is life...
k:



If you don't like to read discussion and debate, perhaps you should not come to the internet?8)

[superkill]

I dont understand why we are fighting each other
we only take a small amount of fish every year lets fight the people who are drifting the fraser at night with there nets all dressed in black and carrying firearms.
Too much crap going on with the fist nations, if us or the governm ent
had any BALLS we would be after them not us with 3% retention.
Just my opinion.
I quit going out ther too much crap going on all the time no respect for anyone so much garbage ,I dont want any part of it .

[ruger#1]

Anyone want to use my DFO jacket while on the river this year. It opens up some good fishing spots.

[Mr. Dean]

I...and carrying firearms...

Ya mean everyone doesn't???



:wink:

[Mr. Dean]

I dont understand why we are fighting each other

I don't think we are. World would be toooooo boring if everyone agreed on everything.

[Steeleco]

Anyone want to use my DFO jacket while on the river this year. It opens up some good fishing spots.

Is it 44 regular?? :mrgreen::mrgreen: I have an old RCMP cap that I wear when fishing, it get interesting looks.

[abbyfireguy]

If you don't like to read discussion and debate, perhaps you should not come to the internet?8)

Never said I didn't, don't know where you get that idea...
Keep up the postings.....
Very interesting ideas and some pretty stubborn people when it comes to fishing....
I have to agree with the net fisheries needing better management...
I get extremely vex with two sets of rights. Native and Non-native.....
The last time I looked, my vote and citizenship were just as Canadian as any aboriginal lining up at a polling staion....
Frustrating to say the least.....http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/hit.gif

[ruger#1]

its an xl. Fits me fine.

[ruger#1]

Lots of end of the season nets thrown in the dumpster.

[Mr. Dean]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread isn't pertaing to other fisheries or the enforcement of them.

I say, lets clean up our act before we start pointing fingers. :twisted: :wink:


I would GLADLY entertain a discussion about the OTHER fisheries but it should be done seperately from this one - Just a quick reminder though; I'm goin to be gone for a bit in search of my 150lb Hali that has a wanted poster stapled to its head, for hanging on the wall. 8)

Once I get it accomplished, I'll be back the very next day. :mrgreen:

[Wildman]

Never said I didn't, don't know where you get that idea...
Keep up the postings.....
Very interesting ideas and some pretty stubborn people when it comes to fishing....
I have to agree with the net fisheries needing better management...
I get extremely vex with two sets of rights. Native and Non-native.....
The last time I looked, my vote and citizenship were just as Canadian as any aboriginal lining up at a polling staion....
Frustrating to say the least.....http://www.nwbombers.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/hit.gif

I just heard that Ottawa is going to combine both fisheries.Native and Non-Native.