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BCWF
01-09-2017, 11:30 AM
http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+news/lake+access+fight+pits+fishing+club+against+billio naire+owner/12667656/story.html

behemoth
01-09-2017, 02:17 PM
This decision is a long time coming.

Go Rick!

Spy
01-09-2017, 02:30 PM
Lake access fight pits fishing club against billionaire owner of Douglas Lake Ranch

RANDY SHORE(Vancouver Sun)

Published: January 08, 2017
Updated: January 08, 2017 9:46 PM
Filed Under:
The Province > News > Local News






http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+news/lake+access+fight+pits+fishing+club+against+billio naire+owner/12667656/cms/binary/12667657.jpg?size=640x420
Rick McGowan and the Nicola Valley Fish and Game Club are battling for public access to lakes on private property.MICHAEL POTESTIO/MERRITT HERALD / VANCOUVER SUN


http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+news/lake+access+fight+pits+fishing+club+against+billio naire+owner/12667656/cms/binary/12667658.jpg?size=640x420
St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke applauds during a news conference at the Forum in Inglewood, Calif. on Friday, Jan. 15, 2016.NICK UT / VANCOUVER SUN












A decades-long dispute over the right of British Columbians to have access to lakes and fish on privately held property will finally be considered by the Supreme Court of B.C. in Kamloops on Monday.
Nicola Valley Fish and Game Club member Rick McGowan was one of many anglers who fished Minnie Lake, Stoney Lake and others on the Douglas Lake Ranch until Stoney Lake Road was abruptly gated and locked in the late 1970s by the Douglas Lake Ranch. The ranch has since built a fishing resort at Stoney Lake.
Local anglers still occasionally walk to the lakes to fish to help legitimize their claim to access, and McGowan has been arrested twice for fishing at another nearby lake on private land.
“I’ve been fighting this since the early 1980s, and the fish and game club got involved when ranchers started to lock up roads we had used for hunting on Crown land,” said McGowan. “We knew we would have to do something or we were never going to be allowed off the blacktop.”
The court will be asked to decide whether the Stoney Lake Road used to access the lakes is a public highway, whether the public should have access to Minnie Lake and Stoney Lake, which are on private property, and whether Douglas Lake Ranch owns the fish in those lakes, which it pays to stock with trout.
“The law has always assumed — at least in Western Canada — that the beds of navigable waters, streams and lakes belong to the Crown, and I think that most of us assume that means the province owns those waters on behalf of the public,” said Andrew Gage, staff lawyer for West Coast Environmental Law.
Complicating the issue is Douglas Lake Ranch’s claim that its property rights extend to the original, natural boundaries of Minnie and Stoney, which are now deep underwater.
The ranch has built dams to increase the size of Stoney Lake from 37 acres in 1890 to about 141 acres today. Minnie Lake has also been enlarged.
The ranch contends that the land between the original boundary of the lakes and the new, larger lake edge is private property — even though it is submerged — and that the lakes are therefore off limits to the public.
The general rule is that property rights extend to the water’s natural boundary; however, property owners must allow access to bodies of water for casual public use, according to the B.C. Ministry of Environment.
“There are thousands of lakes that have been raised, so if that creates a barrier to access that’s a really significant matter,” said Christopher Harvey, lawyer for the game club. “Does the fact that there is private land under the lake extinguish the public right to float on the lake, walk on the ice or fish in the lake?”
The ranch also contends that because it stocks the lakes with trout for the enjoyment of its guests that they own the fish in the lakes, a point that the game club and the provincial government dispute.
“These are really fundamental questions about whether lakes and fish can be privatized and kept for the exclusive benefit of the resort and their guests, or whether there is something fundamentally public about fish and water, that all British Columbians have a right to access,” said Gage.

The game club has raised $100,000 for the scheduled 20-day court battle by holding potlucks and raffles and with the donations of 20 other game clubs, $15,000 from the B.C. Wildlife Federation and $25,000 from West Coast Environmental Law.
But their opponent has extraordinarily deep pockets.
The ranch is owned by American multibillionaire Stan Kroenke, who also owns the Denver Nuggets of the NBA, Los Angeles Rams of the NFL and the Colorado Avalanche of the NHL among other sports enterprises. Kroenke’s lawyer declined to comment for publication.
A bid by the game club to have the provincial government pay their legal costs because it is protecting the public’s interests was denied by the court.
However, the David versus Goliath aspect of the dispute helped convince West Coast Environmental Law to make a significant monetary commitment to the case.
“When the fish and game club went to court to clarify whether those were public roads or not, the owner of the property turned around and sued them and forced them into a much more expensive and complicated process,” said Gage. “There is an aspect of the courts being used to silence public debate that was quite troubling to us.”
rshore@postmedia.com

Edzzed
01-09-2017, 02:43 PM
If Stan Kroenke loses he will appeal it. He has deep pockets and rich people tend to feel they can price you out of litigation.

guest
01-09-2017, 02:58 PM
Thanks to people like Rick, thanks to all those involved in this case, thanks for fighting for the Publics access.

dont think this won't happen eventually for hunting by GOs ...... Ya never know what this government will do next.

Dam corperate sell offs to the big time wealthy, that care less about your average BC residents.

jassmine
01-09-2017, 03:01 PM
Lake access fight pits fishing club against billionaire owner of Douglas Lake Ranch
The ranch is owned by American multibillionaire Stan Kroenke, who also owns the Denver Nuggets of the NBA, Los Angeles Rams of the NFL and the Colorado Avalanche of the NHL among other sports enterprises. Kroenke’s lawyer declined to comment for publication.


Won't do much if it's only in Canada, but we should start advocating sportsmen to boycott apparel/games/etc. that has to do with any of these teams.
If that picks up steam hunting and fishing associations down south might jump on board and make a bigger impact.

Spy
01-09-2017, 03:10 PM
Won't do much if it's only in Canada, but we should start advocating sportsmen to boycott apparel/games/etc. that has to do with any of these teams.
If that picks up steam hunting and fishing associations down south might jump on board and make a bigger impact.
I like it we have to fight for every square inch nowadays anyway we can.

BgBlkDg
01-09-2017, 04:36 PM
If, we had a government with ANY guts and integrity, this foreigner and his entire family, staff and even casual employees from the US, would be declared "persona non grata" in BC and kept OUT of OUR province!

The province would then confiscate the entire holdings of DLCC and return all the land to CROWN LAND status, with EQUAL access for ALL BC citizens.

It is situations such as this and I have witnessed them, especially in the Kootenays, usually from Yankees, that will influence most BC folks to support a ban on angling and hunting here by Americans and perhaps other foreigners. So, the various GOs, etc. should perhaps support the club and others dealing with this atrocity.

tuner
01-09-2017, 04:59 PM
If Stan Kroenke loses he will appeal it. He has deep pockets and rich people tend to feel they can price you out of litigation.
Yes,if the DLR does not receive the decision they want,can litigate indefinitely, an option not realistically available to the Nicola club. Fingers crossed.

Meatatarian
02-01-2017, 01:41 PM
Why haven't we asked the natives for help with this? I have read several comments about this on other web sites. Running question in all of them is why not ask the natives for help. And they have a point. I read a comment from a merrit First Nation. Here's the quote

im first nations and all of douglas lake property is my traditional territory, they catch me in there all the time and cant do crap i just chukkle tell them my name and statice number and they start pouting its unfair

the natives have already proven that the corporations can't take that right away from them. If we PAY the licensing fees that we do, then we should have the same right to access CROWN LAND.

wideopenthrottle
02-01-2017, 01:46 PM
http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/peter-foster-the-boreal-forest-agreement-was-just-an-eco-radical-shakedown-now-thankfully-its-finally-being-killed

I posted this in another thread Big Black Dog..it might give you hope for the future

IronNoggin
02-01-2017, 03:04 PM
... im first nations and all of douglas lake property is my traditional territory, they catch me in there all the time and cant do crap i just chukkle tell them my name and statice number and they start pouting its unfair...


What he is doing (and publicly posting about) is Illegal Trespass on Private Property. If he's hunting, it can also be addressed via the Wildlife Act. Hope their Range Manager catches him soon, and we'll just see who starts "pouting"...

In further developments:

Former government staffer testifies about B.C.'s plan to cede control of lakes

"The government has withheld this information from us for the last seven, eight years. Had we had this information, we probably wouldn't be in this lawsuit," says Rick McGowan, a director of the Nicola Valley Fish and Game Club. "The public has not been aware the government is secretly trying to create a policy to offload these public lakes to private entrepreneurs by controlling public access."

http://cfjctoday.com/article/557798/former-government-employees-speaks-about

And on it goes...

Cheers,
Nog

Dannybuoy
02-01-2017, 03:32 PM
What he is doing (and publicly posting about) is Illegal Trespass on Private Property. If he's hunting, it can also be addressed via the Wildlife Act. Hope their Range Manager catches him soon, and we'll just see who starts "pouting"...

Cheers,
Nog

Not to sidetrack this thread but you may or no be correct Nog .... see the thread about poaching the elk on private property in Naramata

IronNoggin
02-01-2017, 04:10 PM
Not to sidetrack this thread but you may or not be correct Nog .... see the thread about poaching the elk on private property in Naramata

I've been active in that thread, and initiated threads dealing with the same matter on several other Forums.
To say "the debate is somewhat heated" is an understatement for some...

That said: I am fully aware of what the Law, and specifically the Wildlife Act state.
According to that, I am NOT in error.

I am also aware of the intentional testing of those Laws & Regulations by a few radicals, AND our spineless government's response Thus Far. The Laws as written well apply. They just need to be enforced...

Apologies for the side tracking here too...

Now back to your regularly scheduled court case gazing...

Cheers,
Nog

adriaticum
02-01-2017, 06:13 PM
Not to sidetrack this thread but you may or no be correct Nog .... see the thread about poaching the elk on private property in Naramata


and the poachers are being charged with trespassing.
Which is more or less a slap on the wrist.

Dannybuoy
02-01-2017, 07:06 PM
and the poachers are being charged with trespassing.
Which is more or less a slap on the wrist.
Are they ? I haven't seen where charges have been laid .

adriaticum
02-01-2017, 07:28 PM
Are they ? I haven't seen where charges have been laid .

Actually my bad, they are looking at charging them, but they have not been charged as of yet.


"We're looking at possible noncompliances under the wildlife act, the trespass act and maybe the firearms act," Sprado said.
"We're leading the investigation, and the route, obviously, is charges or we can also look at possible restorative justice if the evidence would support any or either of both of those."
Sprado says First Nations people have the right under the Indian Act to hunt on Crown lands for food or ceremonial purposes, but not on private property without permission.
Victoria Kryzanowski says she's owned the land where the incident is alleged to have taken place for about 15 years, and has never given permission to anyone to hunt on that land, noting that as a hunter herself, she doesn't hunt on that land.
She adds that the issue has been ongoing for sometime, though Sprado was unable to say whether conservation officers have been called to the property before.


here is the answer to your other question about FN hunting on private property.

Geo.338
02-02-2017, 12:11 AM
Back to the topic of this thread . What is happening with this case ? Are we seeing any progress towards a resolution that is in favor of BC residents ?

Geo.338
02-02-2017, 12:18 AM
Back to the topic of this thread . What is happening with this case ? Are we seeing any progress towards a resolution that is in favor of BC residents ?

HarryToolips
02-02-2017, 07:34 AM
^^^^Very good point meatatarian...

HarryToolips
02-02-2017, 07:35 AM
Why haven't we asked the natives for help with this? I have read several comments about this on other web sites. Running question in all of them is why not ask the natives for help. And they have a point. I read a comment from a merrit First Nation. Here's the quote

im first nations and all of douglas lake property is my traditional territory, they catch me in there all the time and cant do crap i just chukkle tell them my name and statice number and they start pouting its unfair

the natives have already proven that the corporations can't take that right away from them. If we PAY the licensing fees that we do, then we should have the same right to access CROWN LAND.
Verygooodpoint...

338win mag
02-02-2017, 07:42 AM
Why haven't we asked the natives for help with this? I have read several comments about this on other web sites. Running question in all of them is why not ask the natives for help. And they have a point. I read a comment from a merrit First Nation. Here's the quote

im first nations and all of douglas lake property is my traditional territory, they catch me in there all the time and cant do crap i just chukkle tell them my name and statice number and they start pouting its unfair

the natives have already proven that the corporations can't take that right away from them. If we PAY the licensing fees that we do, then we should have the same right to access CROWN LAND.

and how/why would the Natives help?

Bonz
02-02-2017, 08:14 AM
from that comment by the person quoted id say they dont care about the land and do what they want under thier cards.

finaddict
02-02-2017, 08:14 AM
and how/why would the Natives help?Yeah I agree. I am not really sure it would work in their best interests to have a judge rule that public access take priority over private (read "treaty") lands :shock:

Meatatarian
02-02-2017, 12:27 PM
Um... I think you need to go back to school. Traditional hunting grounds are just how fish and game gets te natives to hunt smaller areas. They get a map just like we get maps of our regions. Treaty lands were deeded to the natives. They have legal ownership. CROWN LAND is crown land. Like I said the natives hunt and fish up there and they don't get stopped because the natives have already won these fights in court. Crown land belongs to Canadians! Look it up. The British parlement stated when Canada became its own country that the ownership of its resources and wealth did not have successive ownership. OUR FORESTS are not actually the crowns! They haven't been owned by the queen since the 30s. Our government still operates on the same system so the name never changed!!!! Crown land is Canadian land! ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PRIVATELY OWNED! You people keep getting caught up on spelling errors(metafor) when we are reading about our future ability to even take a ****ing hike with our children!!!!!!!! For the Canadian government to AT ANY LEVEL allow an AMERICAN OF ANY STATURE, TO HAVE ARRESTED AND CHARGED! A CANADIAN CITIZEN! For FISHING! ON A PUBLIC BODY OF WATER. IS TREASON.

If I had enough money to buy a ranch or 3 in Texas. And then I felt that I had a right to call the lake beside my ranch mine. Would I get away with stoping texans from fishing in that lake?
if you even thought about saying yes to that statement; your a moron. Do society a favor and wake up or go swallow one.

To to anyone else who realizes how important this is. I invite you to start getting friends and family to use twitter and Instagram. I hate to say it but it seems to work better then the news.
Maybe if we make Americans aware of what a scumbag Stan Kroenke is, maybe we can affect game turnouts.

Dannybuoy
02-02-2017, 01:28 PM
Um... I think you need to go back to school. Traditional hunting grounds are just how fish and game gets te natives to hunt smaller areas. They get a map just like we get maps of our regions. Treaty lands were deeded to the natives. They have legal ownership. CROWN LAND is crown land. Like I said the natives hunt and fish up there and they don't get stopped because the natives have already won these fights in court. Crown land belongs to Canadians! Look it up. The British parlement stated when Canada became its own country that the ownership of its resources and wealth did not have successive ownership. OUR FORESTS are not actually the crowns! They haven't been owned by the queen since the 30s. Our government still operates on the same system so the name never changed!!!! Crown land is Canadian land! ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PRIVATELY OWNED! You people keep getting caught up on spelling errors(metafor) when we are reading about our future ability to even take a ****ing hike with our children!!!!!!!! For the Canadian government to AT ANY LEVEL allow an AMERICAN OF ANY STATURE, TO HAVE ARRESTED AND CHARGED! A CANADIAN CITIZEN! For FISHING! ON A PUBLIC BODY OF WATER. IS TREASON.

If I had enough money to buy a ranch or 3 in Texas. And then I felt that I had a right to call the lake beside my ranch mine. Would I get away with stoping texans from fishing in that lake?
if you even thought about saying yes to that statement; your a moron. Do society a favor and wake up or go swallow one.

To to anyone else who realizes how important this is. I invite you to start getting friends and family to use twitter and Instagram. I hate to say it but it seems to work better then the news.
Maybe if we make Americans aware of what a scumbag Stan Kroenke is, maybe we can affect game turnouts.

Nice rant . You need to pull your head out of the sand and have a look at what's been going on in regard to Native "rights" .. you are a few years(decades?) out of touch .
I would agree that this (the original OP post) is very important to all of us and believe the Merrit club is in the right

adriaticum
02-02-2017, 02:26 PM
Meataterian, you have a good point about working together on this issue, however the rest of it is just junk.
You can't hunt on private property period.
Now maybe Douglas lake ranch negotiated some sort of a deal for access by first nations.
That's entirely possible that bc government gave them some sort of a break in return for allowing access to the ranch lands.
There is a whole thing about property taxes and zoning shit that goes on.
Douglas lake probably pays taxes as a ranch even though ranching is a small percentage of their business. Most of their land sits idle while they graze their cattle on public land.

adriaticum
02-02-2017, 02:30 PM
It's possible that government gave them a signal to **** us on the lake front in exchange for access for first nations to the entire property.

338win mag
02-03-2017, 08:07 AM
Um... I think you need to go back to school. Traditional hunting grounds are just how fish and game gets te natives to hunt smaller areas. They get a map just like we get maps of our regions. Treaty lands were deeded to the natives. They have legal ownership. CROWN LAND is crown land. Like I said the natives hunt and fish up there and they don't get stopped because the natives have already won these fights in court. Crown land belongs to Canadians! Look it up. The British parlement stated when Canada became its own country that the ownership of its resources and wealth did not have successive ownership. OUR FORESTS are not actually the crowns! They haven't been owned by the queen since the 30s. Our government still operates on the same system so the name never changed!!!! Crown land is Canadian land! ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PRIVATELY OWNED! You people keep getting caught up on spelling errors(metafor) when we are reading about our future ability to even take a ****ing hike with our children!!!!!!!! For the Canadian government to AT ANY LEVEL allow an AMERICAN OF ANY STATURE, TO HAVE ARRESTED AND CHARGED! A CANADIAN CITIZEN! For FISHING! ON A PUBLIC BODY OF WATER. IS TREASON.

If I had enough money to buy a ranch or 3 in Texas. And then I felt that I had a right to call the lake beside my ranch mine. Would I get away with stoping texans from fishing in that lake?
if you even thought about saying yes to that statement; your a moron. Do society a favor and wake up or go swallow one.

To to anyone else who realizes how important this is. I invite you to start getting friends and family to use twitter and Instagram. I hate to say it but it seems to work better then the news.
Maybe if we make Americans aware of what a scumbag Stan Kroenke is, maybe we can affect game turnouts.

LOL..good one.

finaddict
02-03-2017, 08:33 AM
Um... I think you need to go back to school. Traditional hunting grounds are just how fish and game gets te natives to hunt smaller areas. They get a map just like we get maps of our regions. Treaty lands were deeded to the natives. They have legal ownership. CROWN LAND is crown land. Like I said the natives hunt and fish up there and they don't get stopped because the natives have already won these fights in court. Crown land belongs to Canadians! Look it up. The British parlement stated when Canada became its own country that the ownership of its resources and wealth did not have successive ownership. OUR FORESTS are not actually the crowns! They haven't been owned by the queen since the 30s. Our government still operates on the same system so the name never changed!!!! Crown land is Canadian land! ANYTHING THAT IS NOT PRIVATELY OWNED! You people keep getting caught up on spelling errors(metafor) when we are reading about our future ability to even take a ****ing hike with our children!!!!!!!! For the Canadian government to AT ANY LEVEL allow an AMERICAN OF ANY STATURE, TO HAVE ARRESTED AND CHARGED! A CANADIAN CITIZEN! For FISHING! ON A PUBLIC BODY OF WATER. IS TREASON.

If I had enough money to buy a ranch or 3 in Texas. And then I felt that I had a right to call the lake beside my ranch mine. Would I get away with stoping texans from fishing in that lake?
if you even thought about saying yes to that statement; your a moron. Do society a favor and wake up or go swallow one.

To to anyone else who realizes how important this is. I invite you to start getting friends and family to use twitter and Instagram. I hate to say it but it seems to work better then the news.
Maybe if we make Americans aware of what a scumbag Stan Kroenke is, maybe we can affect game turnouts.While crown land has been the letter of the law for 200 + years since the BNA Act, current SCC sentiment has been very clear in its direction with dozens of landmark decisions and it appears that the highest court in the country does not agree with you. If the courts were to follow the letter of the law, as we all wish they would, there would be no need for this discussion. I have no issue with what you want to see happen, but that horse has already escaped. With regards to your idea of Twitter and Instagram? really? Ooooohhh that'll certainly terrify the FN's. I'll bet they are quivering in their proverbial moccasins as we madly Twitter away and they have the SCC in their back pocket........

BTW your statement "your a moron" ........now that is just too funny.........:lol:

Bonz
02-03-2017, 08:47 AM
the social media does work, more view it than the new actualy. reaches more reg citizens that need to see the truth that media wont show, nothing to do with main natives scared or shake in their boots, its to inform general public of the missinformation sold by main stream media.
just like the anti`s do. and it works well for them

abbyfireguy
02-03-2017, 09:19 AM
The billionaires of this world,esspecially the American ones, have an entitlement attitude that you cannot extinguish.
In the US,everything is privately owned it seems.
Mr. Kroenke is just doing what comes natural to him and his ilk, bully the people he feels are below him into going away.
I am disappointed that Douglas Lake Ranch is an American operation,not that Canadian ownership would help here, but you never know.
If you are waiting for someone to blink here it won't be Stan, he will just keep throwing greenbacks at whoever he can and ride it out.
Rather disappointing that the fish and game club has to spend so much time and money on this issue. That amount of $$$ would go a long way in habitat restoration and other wildlife issues locally for them.

Meatatarian
02-08-2017, 02:18 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Finaddict
^^^^^^
maybe you should go back to school and learn how to read??? I said to use social media to raise awareness about Stan Kroenke. Not the natives....

???????
"With regards to your idea of Twitter and Instagram? really? Ooooohhh that'll certainly terrify the FN's. I'll bet they are quivering in their proverbial moccasins as we madly Twitter away and they have the SCC in their back pocket........"
??????