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Phoneguy
07-04-2007, 11:31 AM
Another thread on this site has me wondering about bullet choice for my 303. I have a draw for deer in 8-08 this fall. Haven't shot anything but paper and plywood with this rifle so far. Only animals I have shot have been grouse, so a whole new learning curve! I have purchased some 180 grain Winchester (don't know what kind, Crappy tire) and some Federal (again crappy tire), I also have some (180, 200?) that my father in law gave me, he had used for moose.

Is that to much bullet for a deer? Will it open up enough? Should I pick up some 165s? One person has suggested to find one bullet I like and use it for everything I am likely to hunt. Another suggests using different grains... Enough to get a guys head spinning....

And I have to get out to the range to get my new (to me) scope sighted in..

Thanks for the advice.

James

270WIN
07-04-2007, 11:34 AM
180 win or the 180 fed will work fine on deer shoot the ones that best shoot from your riffle

Steeleco
07-04-2007, 11:40 AM
180 win or the 180 fed will work fine on deer shoot the ones that best shoot from your riffle

Agreed, see which one your rifle groups the best and use the rest for practice.
What are the bullets you have called? IE Inter bonds, Partitions etc

ve7iuq
07-04-2007, 12:39 PM
Agreed, see which one your rifle groups the best and use the rest for practice.
What are the bullets you have called? IE Inter bonds, Partitions etc

This business about seeing which factory cartridges shoot best in your rifle is completely over done! It would take an expert rifleman, with a finely tuned quality rifle and high quality scope, in ideal bench rest conditions, to determine if there was any difference in how each grouped. Do you think the 303 Lee Enfield with the new shooter starting out fits this criteria? And why is it always mentioned where the cartridges were purchased, as if that effected the cartridges? Federal or Winchester, purchased from Canadian Tire (I hate the expression, "crappy tire!") will be the same as those purchased from the most prestigious sporting store.
And are any factory cartridges on the shelves of any store, that are marked Winchester, or Federal, or Remington, just Junk, as we have so often read here? No. Those companies have been making quality ammunition since before your grandfather was born, and if they turned out "junk," how long do you think they would be in business? At least 90% of those cartridges are used in the USA, thus subject to vast numbers of very critical shooters, plus the top rifle testing people in the world and no end of gun writers. No inferior product will stand up to that.
These people who say they had a box of so-in-so and they were junk, I say to them, learn how to shoot!

270WIN
07-04-2007, 12:57 PM
This business about seeing which factory cartridges shoot best in your rifle is completely over done! It would take an expert rifleman, with a finely tuned quality rifle and high quality scope, in ideal bench rest conditions, to determine if there was any difference in how each grouped. Do you think the 303 Lee Enfield with the new shooter starting out fits this criteria? And why is it always mentioned where the cartridges were purchased, as if that effected the cartridges? Federal or Winchester, purchased from Canadian Tire (I hate the expression, "crappy tire!") will be the same as those purchased from the most prestigious sporting store.
And are any factory cartridges on the shelves of any store, that are marked Winchester, or Federal, or Remington, just Junk, as we have so often read here? No. Those companies have been making quality ammunition since before your grandfather was born, and if they turned out "junk," how long do you think they would be in business? At least 90% of those cartridges are used in the USA, thus subject to vast numbers of very critical shooters, plus the top rifle testing people in the world and no end of gun writers. No inferior product will stand up to that.
These people who say they had a box of so-in-so and they were junk, I say to them, learn how to shoot!

i do agree a box of federal bought at canadian tire is not much diff from a box bought at hubs sports the only diff is lot # but i do disagree and may be you can explain for as in question here is two diffrent brand bullets fed and winchester your telling me they will not shoot any diffrent in a so called caliber. It has been a wile since i have shot factory round but when i did my 270 win would shoot under 1 inch groups at 100 yrds with winchester bullets but if i changed to remigton bullets my group opened up past 1 inch is it the shooter or is it the diffrent brand bullets

Steeleco
07-04-2007, 01:12 PM
This business about seeing which factory cartridges shoot best in your rifle is completely over done!Explain that to this young man as his first big game animal gets up and walks away because the bullet hit 6" aft of it's intended POI.

As well, the practice, even with poor ammo is still practice, to pick up a rifle of an unknown quantity and a bullet the same, and just go hunting is plain WRONG. Not to mention immoral. While I agree the place of purchase is irrelevant the brand your gun likes is very relevant. The animals we hunt deserve better!!!:wink:

todbartell
07-04-2007, 01:13 PM
a 180 grain soft point out of a 303 will work just fine on deer sized game out to 250 yards

Gateholio
07-04-2007, 01:35 PM
[quote=ve7iuq;163685]This business about seeing which factory cartridges shoot best in your rifle is completely over done! It would take an expert rifleman, with a finely tuned quality rifle and high quality scope, in ideal bench rest conditions, to determine if there was any difference in how each grouped.

I think you miss the point..One type of ammo may shoot reasonably well and another very poorly. Even a layman can determine this by shooting a few groups of each. If they are both close in performance, then no need to break out the calipers, just go unt wiht either.




? No. Those companies have been making quality ammunition since before your grandfather was born, and if they turned out "junk," how long do you think they would be in business? At least 90% of those cartridges are used in the USA, thus subject to vast numbers of very critical shooters, plus the top rifle testing people in the world and no end of gun writers. No inferior product will stand up to that.
These people who say they had a box of so-in-so and they were junk, I say to them, learn how to shoot


Much ammo that is made today is very, very good, but some of it will certainly perfom better than other stuff. The Premium ammo almost always performs well, while the bargain ammo varies in performance. Most of it shoudl hit a moose at 100 yards, though..

ve7iuq
07-04-2007, 01:36 PM
Explain that to this young man as his first big game animal gets up and walks away because the bullet hit 6" aft of it's intended POI.

As well, the practice, even with poor ammo is still practice, to pick up a rifle of an unknown quantity and a bullet the same, and just go hunting is plain WRONG. Not to mention immoral. While I agree the place of purchase is irrelevant the brand your gun likes is very relevant. The animals we hunt deserve better!!!:wink:

Where did I say he should just take the unknown shells and go hunting without sighting in, or practicing?

todbartell
07-04-2007, 01:37 PM
This business about seeing which factory cartridges shoot best in your rifle is completely over done! It would take an expert rifleman, with a finely tuned quality rifle and high quality scope, in ideal bench rest conditions, to determine if there was any difference in how each grouped

I smell some BS. :roll: As an example lets take my Remington 700 chambered in 30-06. With factory Winchester 150 grain power points, it will shoot around 1.25" 3 shot groups. Switch to Federal 150 grain power shock soft points and it will grow to 2". That is piss poor accuracy in my opinion. Then I can shoot 165 grain handloads with Nosler Accubonds and print a 3/4 inch groups. Dont try and tell us that ammuntion type is 'overdone'! :mrgreen:


And are any factory cartridges on the shelves of any store, that are marked Winchester, or Federal, or Remington, just Junk, as we have so often read here? No. Those companies have been making quality ammunition since before your grandfather was born, and if they turned out "junk," how long do you think they would be in business? At least 90% of those cartridges are used in the USA, thus subject to vast numbers of very critical shooters, plus the top rifle testing people in the world and no end of gun writers. No inferior product will stand up to that.
These people who say they had a box of so-in-so and they were junk, I say to them, learn how to shoot!

Some of the bullet options that the ammo makers put out is a bit odd. Case in point 150 grain bullets in a 300 Winchester Magnum. These same 150 grain bullets are loaded in 300 Savages, and 308s @ 2700-2800 fps. THeir performance on deer is good, because of their moderate impact speed. Stuff them in a 300 Winchester Magnum and they leave the muzzle @ 3300 fps. They become explosive bombs, and will destroy half a deer, and provide a big risk on losing an animal due to insufficient penetration of the vitals. This ammo is basically JUNK.

Steeleco
07-04-2007, 02:09 PM
Where did I say he should just take the unknown shells and go hunting without sighting in, or practicing?

Agreed you didn't say that, my point was that during this practice he will find which ammo his gun likes, a point you seem to disagree with.

Nothing personal!

Phoneguy
07-04-2007, 02:45 PM
Explain that to this young man as his first big game animal gets up and walks away because the bullet hit 6" aft of it's intended POI.

Haven't been called a "young man" in a while ...... I'm 44......Kinda like getting carded in the liquor store for my wife!

I realize there will be lots of opinions so this is why I am asking. I am considering penetration, expansion, knock down, etc. Last thing I would want is for the bullet to go right through without expanding. I have seen a few responses saying that 180 will be fine, that is the reassurance I am looking for. If people thought it is an inappropriate size I would look for whatever is recommended.

I mentioned Canadian Tire because that is where I bought them from. Convenience, not a statement about a store or a brand or whatever. Also Canadian tire only stocks a limited range of bullets. I thought someone might recognize them from that (little weak I know but hey). I remembert that the Winchesters were 180 grains, with an X on the box. When I get home I can double check if it makes a difference. I guess it does. I know I need to get to the range. I just changed the scope. The old one that was on there was a little hard to get a good visual through.
Handheld, at an informal setup I was able to shoot 2" groupings with the old set up at 50 to 70 yards. It was good enough for the area and animal I was hunting (but didn't see)...
Lots of room for improvement. Lots to learn.

Thanks for the answers.

James

brotherjack
07-04-2007, 02:50 PM
I can speak from experience - 180 grain Winchester's (Super-X PowerPoint's) out of a 303 British will kill anything you shoot with them. I've killed elk, bear, deer, etc with mine. Everything I ever shot with it came home in my truck. :)

180 Federal's or Remington's will probably also do fine if your gun likes them - but I have never personally shot game with them, so I can't comment (other than to say I think they'd work fine).

Also, never shot anything with 150's - so no idea.

ve7iuq
07-04-2007, 03:17 PM
Well, I sure started something, anyway. But you guys could keep your steam presure down, if you would carefully pay attention to what was asked, and what I said. It was a new shooter, with a 303, asking what weight bullets should be used for deer. All of you, except one or two, got completely off the subject, discussing ammunition of various type.
An iron sighted, I presume, 303 shot by a good rifleman, MAY group as good as 3 inches at 100 yards. No new shooter will do as good. This is the usual, "sportserized" Lee Endfield I am talking about. Any of the hunting cartridges made by the major makers will do better than this, so why worry about brands? The full wood 303, used in military type target shooting, carefully bedded by an expert armourer, would do much better. Using such a rifle, with the large Parker Hale target rear sight and just the right amount of blackening on the front sight, I have made at least one, one inch, 5 shot group at 100 yards. But this was on a bench rest and not prone.
And Tod, when I was your age, I probably thought there was great amounts of difference in the ammo also. But a lot of shooting at your range about ten miles west of PG, convinced me the trouble was usually in the rifle. Maybe the modern pastic stocked rifles come from the factory properly bedded, I don't know. But the rifles with wood stocks nearly all needed bedding, before they would shoot properly. In the 1960s I was involved in a sporting goods store which did a good business in rifles. It was common for a buyer to get his rifle and scope, then get me to sight it in for him. It was actually rare for a new rifle to shoot a five shot string without walking the bullets. The only rifles that I tested that would make nice, five shot groups right off the shelf, was the Schultz and Larson. We sold them in both 7 x 61 and 308 Norma Magnum and it didn't matter which, they would both shoot right around the one inch, 5 shot group, just as they came from the factory.
I bought a pre 64 Sako, 270 for myself. When I took it to the range I nearly prayed that it would shoot good. But no way. After about three shots it started to walk them. It took about three sessions of bedding to get it right, and produce the 5 shot one inch groups. My 30-06 Husqvarna was similar. But proper bedding and a custom trigger produced outstanding results. It will now shoot 165 and 180 grain bullets into the same group, with 150 bullets, at the most, less than an inch higher. And it doesn't give a hoot what brand of bullets, or ammo is going through it!
After my 270 was properly bedded I went to the range west of town, to see which bullets dropped the least at 500 yards. I would use the same powder and brass, but different brands of bullets and even changing from 130 to 150. I would use the same amount of the same powder for all of the 130s. Then the same charge for each brand of 150. I would check the sighting at 100 to have it 2 to 3 inches high, then see how much they dropped at 500. There was no noticable difference in group size with any of the commercial bullets. (Premium bullets were not used.) And I seldom had to change the scope for the 100 yard sighting.
Please keep any comments to what I actually said and DO NOT get personal. This thread is meant for mature discussion, presented in a way that maybe we can all learn something.

Fisher-Dude
07-04-2007, 03:36 PM
180s will work great for whatever you are hunting, and are a good all-round choice for pretty well any 30 calibre.

I've had really good performance from Remington factory loads (Core Lokts). Core Lokt Express for your gun at Wally World are only about $20 a box, and are a time-tested bullet for medium sized game. They've dumped deer, elk, and moose for me in 308 Win (180 gr), 7mm Rem Mag (175 gr), and 300 Win Mag(180 gr). Whatever brand your gun shoots well at the range should do the trick.

Gateholio
07-04-2007, 04:19 PM
Well, I sure started something, anyway. But you guys could keep your steam presure down, if you would carefully pay attention to what was asked, and what I said. It was a new shooter, with a 303, asking what weight bullets should be used for deer. All of you, except one or two, got completely off the subject, discussing ammunition of various type.

Why do you presume that nobody here is interested in discussing various types of ammunition? Maybe the original poster is interested in other types. Mayeb I am interested in other types...

You made a blanket statement about factory ammo that wasn't accurate when you said:



This business about seeing which factory cartridges shoot best in your rifle is completely over done! It would take an expert rifleman, with a finely tuned quality rifle and high quality scope, in ideal bench rest conditions, to determine if there was any difference in how each grouped.


Even a layman with a cheap scope and an off the shelf hunitng rifle can tell the difference when he sees that Brand X shoots 2" groups and brand Y shoots 4" groups. Some ammo doesn't work as good as others. in some rifles.


An iron sighted, I presume, 303 shot by a good rifleman, MAY group as good as 3 inches at 100 yards. No new shooter will do as good. This is the usual, "sportserized" Lee Endfield I am talking about. Any of the hunting cartridges made by the major makers will do better than this, so why worry about brands?

Why not see if one shoots better in your rifle? Why not observe things? Why not see if you can shoot up to your rifle? Why not practice a bit at the same time, even if in the end, there isn't any accuracy difference between the 2 brands?

Why not try to see if your rifle and you are up to shooting groups like this (these from a 303 Jungle Carbine wiht a low power, piss poor scope, wiht no bedding)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid178/p7cbe345831921659dfeda4365766763b/f329a7c9.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid178/p2eea6eea5930bc73b631e14dbd7500a6/f329a7da.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid178/pc10952aa3c1d5acfc5796ce77266742a/f329a7e4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid178/pf84fc4c463f5ab8148e03ed88b5d64ee/f329a7ef.jpg


I

bought a pre 64 Sako, 270 for myself. When I took it to the range I nearly prayed that it would shoot good. But no way. After about three shots it started to walk them. It took about three sessions of bedding to get it right, and produce the 5 shot one inch groups. My 30-06 Husqvarna was similar. But proper bedding and a custom trigger produced outstanding results. It will now shoot 165 and 180 grain bullets into the same group, with 150 bullets, at the most, less than an inch higher. And it doesn't give a hoot what brand of bullets, or ammo is going through it!
After my 270 was properly bedded I went to the range west of town, to see which bullets dropped the least at 500 yards. I would use the same powder and brass, but different brands of bullets and even changing from 130 to 150. I would use the same amount of the same powder for all of the 130s. Then the same charge for each brand of 150. I would check the sighting at 100 to have it 2 to 3 inches high, then see how much they dropped at 500. There was no noticable difference in group size with any of the commercial bullets. (Premium bullets were not used.) And I seldom had to change the scope for the 100 yard sighting.


Your example is of one rifle. A good rifle should indeed shoot any reasonable load, reasonably well. But to suggets that ALL rifles are going to shoot ALL loads (especially ALL factory loads) exactly the same just isn't true.



Please keep any comments to what I actually said and DO NOT get personal. This thread is meant for mature discussion, presented in a way that maybe we can all learn something

If you don't want to get personal, you might want to refrain from commments like "When I was your age" as comments like that often interpreted as being condescending.

CanAm500
07-04-2007, 04:22 PM
Phoneguy - 180 grain will do fine. I think 180 grain is the most common and most used grain in a 30 cal rifle round (303, 30-06, 308, 300). Becuase thats all i shoot out of my 30-06.

As mentioned before try some other brands (remington, fed, win, etc) and see what shoots accuratly for you and your rifle.

bsa30-06
07-04-2007, 05:04 PM
I mentioned Canadian Tire because that is where I bought them from. Convenience, not a statement about a store or a brand or whatever. Also Canadian tire only stocks a limited range of bullets. I thought someone might recognize them from that (little weak I know but hey). I remembert that the Winchesters were 180 grains, with an X on the box. When I get home I can double check if it makes a difference. I guess it does. I know I need to get to the range. I just changed the scope. The old one that was on there was a little hard to get a good visual through.
Handheld, at an informal setup I was able to shoot 2" groupings with the old set up at 50 to 70 yards. It was good enough for the area and animal I was hunting (but didn't see)...
Lots of room for improvement. Lots to learn.

Thanks for the answers.

James

You most likely have a box of winchester super x ( grey box, red writing).I use 180 gr in my 30-06 the gun seems to like them.Have shot a buck and a bear with them both passed thru the buck died in its footprints and the bear went about 40 yards and piled up.You won't have a problem with them no matter were you buy them from. Good luck.

One Shot
07-04-2007, 05:25 PM
:twisted:
It would take an expert rifleman, with a finely tuned quality rifle and high quality scope, in ideal bench rest conditions, to determine if there was any difference in how each grouped. Do you think the 303 Lee Enfield with the new shooter starting out fits this criteria? :icon_frow

I am by some considered an expert of which I can tell which ammo performs better than others in a given rifle. A finely tuned rifle will minimize the the performance differences some what, but a off the shelf hunting grade rifle will enhance those differences more so than the finely tuned rifle. The differences in performance of the same catridges used in the hunting grade rifle in the hands of a not so expert hunter/marksman will be exaggerated even more. Having said that, the difference of a 1.5" at 100yds in the hands of an expert with a finely tuned rifle could very well be 6" or more in the hands of not so expert with a hunting grade rifle.

BTW I have a LE of which it has its likes and dislikes for paticular ammunition. It actually likes Fed High Shock over Premium cartridges. I sure do think it meets the criteria.

Ammo, rifles and personal abilities have as much varied personalities as are the responses in this thread. This sport is not an exact science and most of us strive to be able to conquer the inconsistancies looking for the perfect load combination. What works for one will not neseccarily work for another.

We need to help the inexperienced or those wanting to learn more by giving tehm sound advice rather than narrow opinionated answers or comments and therby driving them away rather encouraging them. If one cannot refrain from doing so, it is best at times to just sit back and read what others have to say and learn from their comments. This sport has a broad range of possibilities for answers to most questions or queries. It is just finding out what will best work for your particular application. In short there is no one magical bullet, most bullets will do the job. Its finding what will perform better in your particular rifle as well as how fine of performance are you willing to go after ( not all seek the <.5" performance).

I would have to concur with Gatehouse as his comments are based on knowledge and experience.

Nuff Said:mrgreen:

BCLongshot
07-04-2007, 05:35 PM
Wow who the Hell is this guy ?

Little crisp aren't ya ? Too much coffee not enough sex ?

Steeleco your very pleasant to chat with.

ve7iuq........Crappy Tire Crappy Tire Crappy Tire

Cmon lighten up.

I've had all kind of experiences with ammo and believe me I'm a Hell of a good shot !

One Shot
07-04-2007, 06:08 PM
Another thread on this site has me wondering about bullet choice for my 303. I have a draw for deer in 8-08 this fall. Haven't shot anything but paper and plywood with this rifle so far. Only animals I have shot have been grouse, so a whole new learning curve! I have purchased some 180 grain Winchester (don't know what kind, Crappy tire) and some Federal (again crappy tire), I also have some (180, 200?) that my father in law gave me, he had used for moose.

Is that to much bullet for a deer? Will it open up enough? Should I pick up some 165s? One person has suggested to find one bullet I like and use it for everything I am likely to hunt. Another suggests using different grains... Enough to get a guys head spinning....

And I have to get out to the range to get my new (to me) scope sighted in..

Thanks for the advice.

James

Phoneguy

Are you handloading as you mention 165s? I am not familiar with factory 165s in 303 but I could be wrong.

But you also mention store bought ammo. I have also a LE, in my particular rifle it likes to shoot Fed 150s better than the 180s. The 150s being lighter will shoot a little flatter narrowing your trajectory by an 1"-2" or so at 200yds. The 150s are very capable of dropping deer in their tracks as is with the 180s. The 150s being lighter have a higer velocity and with that their energy is slightly greater than the 180s. The 180s do appear to be the most common weight for ammo manufacturers in this cailber. Having said that it may be something to think about using 180s as they are available at all Canadian Tire and Wall Mart outlets in the event that you need more and besides they are also open year round. With Crappy Tire Fed 150s i can get 3/4-1.5" groups at 100 using an old 4x scope.

I do not believe that you need to use 200s as the deer hide is lighter than larger big game.

I would suggest that you try some of each from a couple of manufacturers ammo and see what your rifle likes best.

There is nothing wrong with Crappy Tire or Wall mart ammo, it is just not the premiium ammo of the suppliers but is still more than very capable of taking down game. If you wish to use premium ammo you will also pay more for it at firearm dealers around town. In the US Wall Mart sells more Winchester ammo combined than all gun outlets combined selling premium ammo of the same.

Good luck, let us know how you make out.

Nuff Said:-D

todbartell
07-04-2007, 07:20 PM
a 303 that can keep its shots within 3" at 100 yards is sufficient for hunting deer and moose out to about 250 yards. In theory a 3" group @ 100 will turn into a 7.5" group at 250, and if you're properly sighted in, you should at that range still have a bullet impacting within 4 inches of your point of aim. That'll work. Oh, and some ammo may give you 1.5 or 2" groups, even better. Try it ;)

todbartell
07-04-2007, 07:29 PM
ve7iug, looking back through this topic, you failed to give the guy any actual advice or information that would help answer his question. Feel free to do so at this point :D

Mattimoose
07-05-2007, 10:01 PM
Wha! I shot a moose with 180 grain .303 winchesters from canadian tire and my ross rifle likes them. If I had tried-out the rifle with 180 Rem or Federal softpoints, I woulda sold the gun for the 75.00 I paid. The rifle does however cut cloverleafs at 100 yards with the winchester cxp2 ammo and shares nearly identical trajectory with my military IVI 92 174 Grain boat-tail ball ammo. This was evident only after shooting every 180 and 150grain factory load out there, and the only way to learn how to shoot is to shoot.
22's are the best indicator.No gun shoots 2 brands exactly the same, so what is with all the bla-bla here. Any idiot can afford to buy 2 boxes of .22 ammo and learn. Sheesh. We are in the youth and newbies forum here and we are talking like pre-schoolers.

Bigbear
07-15-2007, 02:01 PM
I have shot several Moose and Deer , with 150 Grn in the 303 Hornady seems to work well. But if you can hand load the better. 150 gr get good speed and retain the mass well.