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View Full Version : Cheap shafts or...(bit of a rant)



Bow Walker
05-09-2007, 03:07 PM
I've always bought Gold Tip arrows/shafts. I always have gone with their least expensive ones, which are the Expedition Hunters.

The Expedition Hunter shafts have an advertised straightness tolerance of +/-.006” over their. Their weight tolerance is advertised as being hand weighed to within +/- 2 grains per dozen.

Last batch of 5575 Expedition Hunter arrows that I made, I cut them from both ends to get my desired arrow length, made "special sure" of the squareness of the cut(s), and also weigh each and every component to come up with finished arrows (including field tips) that were within 2 grains of each other.

The finished product flew better than any other arrow that I had ever shot - whether custom made, or factory made, or pro shop made. They were (and are) the best fliers that I have seen.

Now - I just finished getting a dozen of the more expensive XT Hunter shafts, with a guaranteed straightness tolerance of +/-.003”, plus these are advertised to be laser inspected for straightness and then hand sorted for a guaranteed weigh tolerance of +/- 2 grains per dozen.

I measured, cut, and built the arrows from these shafts with the same attention to detail as with the cheaper arrows. I am pretty anally retentive when it comes to building my own stuff.

Well - long story longer....I decided to take some of these more expensive arrows and use them for my hunting. Put some broadheads on them. Makes sense right? Use the better (more costly) arrows for broadheads? Right?

I sorted through the whole dozen to find four that spin-tested true, that is they spun straight on my arrow spinner. This without the broadhead attached!

You'd think that the more $$$$ spent, the better the product, right? Apparently not - because my cheaper shafts spun truer than the more expensive shafts.

Did I get a lousy pack? Was this just an aberration? Don't get me wrong here, I love GT shafts, but I think that I will be sticking to the cheaper ones for the next dozen that I buy.

The Hermit
05-09-2007, 03:56 PM
You can't have mine back!!

greybark
05-09-2007, 05:01 PM
:) Hey BowWalker , Great post !!!!!!


REMEMBER -- Keep Your Fingertab On --

Onesock
05-09-2007, 06:21 PM
Hermit-You don't still have them all do you?

Bow Walker
05-10-2007, 10:30 PM
I think he's missing 2 or 3 from what I can gather.

You know Bill, those camo Expedition Hunters are the shaft of choice for me now. Those are the ones that fly so well from my setup.

pupper
05-13-2007, 05:40 PM
hmm wierd that xt's are worse than expeditions

I always use xt's and I was shooting them through the chrono and 1 arrow always went 291fps and the other one went 288fps. same tip, same batch, same fletching. I wieghed it and it was 6 grains heavier. strange eh.

I just ordered some pro hunters. I will see how they work and let you know

Brambles
05-13-2007, 06:25 PM
I shoot gold tip ultralites and one arrow weighted 27 grains more than the rest. I've read posts on other forums that people have experianced the same phenominon with the gold tip arrows, I still like them but might look else where when I set up my new bow.

Bow Walker
05-13-2007, 08:54 PM
The dozen XT's that I bought were all loose, as in not packaged. The Expedition that I bought were both packaged (from the factory) in dozens.

That, I think, is the difference. The packaged dozens lived up to their billing by being on 2 grains out over a whole dozen. Not bad for "cheap" arrows.

Eagle1
05-13-2007, 09:43 PM
+ or - two grains means that the dozen arrows could be out 4 grains for the dozen. I've taken ACC's cut and weighted every shaft then fletched and weighted every point, heavyest point to lightest arrow and made them all the same weight and they didn't shoot any better at 90m than ones I just made and slapped together. Alot of it is a mind set knowing they are the best you can make them. Alot of pro's just make the arrow up as is { not doing all the weighting and such } They seem to shot darn good. I personaly think we can't shoot better than the .006 straightness of carbon arrows other wise all cabons would be .001. Archery 95 % mental, 5 % physical.jmo.

pupper
05-13-2007, 09:45 PM
true that eagle. It does give you some more confidence "knowing" your shooting the straightest most consistent arrows

Riverbc
10-28-2011, 07:50 PM
resurrecting an old thread. I was thinking of going to XT Hunters for my next batch. I had been using Expedition Hunters, and was curious was the .003 better than the .006. I found this interesting site. http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_2.htm

It says:


Arrow Straightness and the ±.00$ Factor

Most carbon arrows are advertised to have a specific straightness tolerance between .001" and .006". The straighter the arrow, the more expensive they will typically be. Before we get too deep into this topic, it's worth noting that there doesn't seem to be an accepted universal method for HOW arrow straightness is measured. Per ATA/ASTM standards, arrow straightness should be measured along the full length of the shaft minus two inches. But as we understand it, this is NOT how things actually go inside the industry. On a number of occasions, we have heard arrow companies accuse each other of cheating their straightness measurements - either by measuring only short sections of their arrows, or by obtaining their straightness numbers via undisclosed measurement methodologies. If you think the bow business is cut-throat, you should witness how the arrow companies go at it behind closed doors. To avoid being shanked at the next trade show, we'll stay neutral, and assume that everyones' arrow straightness numbers are reasonably honest and comparable.

With that said, let's examine the typical straightness "classes" of arrows. Most standard-grade carbon arrows have an advertised straightness of .005-.006". These shafts are usually marketed exclusively to the hunter and beginning archers. For the purposes of big game hunting and general target use, standard-grade shafts are more than adequate. A typical human hair is about .004"-.006" in diameter. So even a basic carbon shaft of .006" straightness is quite good, and straighter than you could possibly perceive without specialized equipment.

But ... making and selling arrows is a very competitive business. So most arrow shaft manufacturers also offer a mid-grade shafts which will have an advertised straightness of around .003-.004", and "pro" grade shafts claiming a straightness of .001-.002". And as you might expect, these premium grade arrows fetch a premium price. If you're the kind of buyer who always goes for the good stuff, then by all means, buy the straightest shaft you can find. But before you shell out the green for a ±.001 shaft, there are couple things you should know.

First, the difference in a ±.006" shaft and a ±.001" shaft is more razor-thin than you might think. Carbon arrow shafts are constructed by taking very thin layers of carbon sheets and rolling them up into perfectly straight tubes (usually 6ft. long or so), much like you might roll-up a big map. Once wound, the carbon tubes are then heat-treated to bond all the layers together. When the heating process is complete and the carbon tubes cool down to room temperature, they are cut into sections (raw shafts). Some of the shafts, particularly those that come from the center of the roll, retain their ±.001" straightness while other sections distort slightly from the heating/cooling process.

As we understand it, the results vary from run to run and day to day. In most cases, even the manufacturer doesn't know how the day's crop of shafts will come out. But once the shafts are made, the manufacturer measures the straightness of each shaft and sorts them accordingly for banding and sale. One sort may be named and marketed as one arrow, another sort as something else. For example, the Beman Bowhunter ±.006" @ $64.95 p/dz and the Beman ICS Hunter ±.003" @ $89.95 are just two different sorts of the same shaft - same raw materials - same construction technique. Same is true for the popular Gold Tip Expedition ±.006", Gold Tip XT ±.003", and the Gold Tip Pro ±.001". They're literally cut from the same cloth.

Small variations in the daily manufacturing environment (humidity, pressure, air convection patterns, etc.) along with tiny deviations in the characteristics of the raw materials ultimately determines the straightness of the finished product. On one particular day, the manufacturer might yield an entire batch of ±.001" shafts, or an entire batch no better than ±.006", or even a mixed bag of straightnesses, all from the very same processes and materials. The finer tricks of the trade are carefully guarded secrets, as the art of consistently building straighter arrow shafts is literally a technical exercise in splitting hairs. But make no mistake, arrow manufacturers would rather avoid the ±.006" days. The more ±.001" days a manufacturer has, the more money they can make. Why? Because straighter shafts, whether they cost more to manufacture or not, are worth more in the marketplace. So don't be fooled into thinking that your set of $129 ±.001" pro-grade shafts are somehow fundamentally better constructed, stronger, or made from finer materials than a basic $69 a dozen ±.006" hunting shaft. In most cases, they're just a few thousandths of an inch from being the exact same product.



Straighter Arrows Shoot Straighter, Right?

From a pure physics standpoint, yes! Arrow straightness certainly does matter. Straighter arrows undeniably fly more accurately. In long-range laboratory conditions with a mechanical shooting machine, the straightest arrows with the best spine consistencies will always group best. But try to keep this issue in reasonable perspective. You are not a mechanical shooting machine. You don't shoot in laboratory conditions, and you probably don't shoot at extreme distances (100+ yards). The straightness difference in a ±.006" arrow and a ±.001" arrow is literally the width of a single human hair. So realistically, the ±.001" arrow probably has more to do with selling arrows than shooting arrows. The truth is, only a handful of the world's archers actually have enough shooting skill to differentiate between a very good ±.003" arrow and a "pro grade" ±.001" arrow. And within the typical bowhunting range, any difference would be practically imperceptible.

Nonetheless, bowhunters tend to attribute their successes or failures to their equipment rather than to their actual skills. So owning and shooting a set of professional grade ±.001" arrows may provide some bowhunters with an edge in confidence, even if the actual technical advantage is negligible. If you're one of the many archers who believe that success is only one more purchase away, buy whatever arrows you like. Just remember that super-straight arrows won't correct poor shooting form. In the end, the benefits of a good practice regimen and proper bow tuning will FAR outweigh the benefits of shooting expensive arrow shafts.

Bow Walker
10-29-2011, 11:04 AM
Ya know - buying lesser expensive shafts and then cutting them down to proper length goes a long way to upping their "straightness" quotent as well as stiffening up a weaker spine.

If a person buys 30" shafts and is going to cut 4 - 6 inches from them to get a desired length - cut form bothe ends of the shaft. You'd be amazed at how that straightens a .006" shaft right up into the .001" zones.

I've been doing that for years now.

Riverbc
10-29-2011, 02:10 PM
I guess I will stay with my Expedition Hunter's. They are cut to 26 1/4 inches, and are cheap by the dozen, and they hit where I aim. Field points and slick tricks!

greybark
11-08-2011, 08:26 PM
resurrecting an old thread. I was thinking of going to XT Hunters for my next batch. I had been using Expedition Hunters, and was curious was the .003 better than the .006. I found this interesting site. http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_2.htm

It says:


Arrow Straightness and the ±.00$ Factor

Most carbon arrows are advertised to have a specific straightness tolerance between .001" and .006". The straighter the arrow, the more expensive they will typically be. Before we get too deep into this topic, it's worth noting that there doesn't seem to be an accepted universal method for HOW arrow straightness is measured. Per ATA/ASTM standards, arrow straightness should be measured along the full length of the shaft minus two inches. But as we understand it, this is NOT how things actually go inside the industry. On a number of occasions, we have heard arrow companies accuse each other of cheating their straightness measurements - either by measuring only short sections of their arrows, or by obtaining their straightness numbers via undisclosed measurement methodologies. If you think the bow business is cut-throat, you should witness how the arrow companies go at it behind closed doors. To avoid being shanked at the next trade show, we'll stay neutral, and assume that everyones' arrow straightness numbers are reasonably honest and comparable.

With that said, let's examine the typical straightness "classes" of arrows. Most standard-grade carbon arrows have an advertised straightness of .005-.006". These shafts are usually marketed exclusively to the hunter and beginning archers. For the purposes of big game hunting and general target use, standard-grade shafts are more than adequate. A typical human hair is about .004"-.006" in diameter. So even a basic carbon shaft of .006" straightness is quite good, and straighter than you could possibly perceive without specialized equipment.

But ... making and selling arrows is a very competitive business. So most arrow shaft manufacturers also offer a mid-grade shafts which will have an advertised straightness of around .003-.004", and "pro" grade shafts claiming a straightness of .001-.002". And as you might expect, these premium grade arrows fetch a premium price. If you're the kind of buyer who always goes for the good stuff, then by all means, buy the straightest shaft you can find. But before you shell out the green for a ±.001 shaft, there are couple things you should know.

First, the difference in a ±.006" shaft and a ±.001" shaft is more razor-thin than you might think. Carbon arrow shafts are constructed by taking very thin layers of carbon sheets and rolling them up into perfectly straight tubes (usually 6ft. long or so), much like you might roll-up a big map. Once wound, the carbon tubes are then heat-treated to bond all the layers together. When the heating process is complete and the carbon tubes cool down to room temperature, they are cut into sections (raw shafts). Some of the shafts, particularly those that come from the center of the roll, retain their ±.001" straightness while other sections distort slightly from the heating/cooling process.

As we understand it, the results vary from run to run and day to day. In most cases, even the manufacturer doesn't know how the day's crop of shafts will come out. But once the shafts are made, the manufacturer measures the straightness of each shaft and sorts them accordingly for banding and sale. One sort may be named and marketed as one arrow, another sort as something else. For example, the Beman Bowhunter ±.006" @ $64.95 p/dz and the Beman ICS Hunter ±.003" @ $89.95 are just two different sorts of the same shaft - same raw materials - same construction technique. Same is true for the popular Gold Tip Expedition ±.006", Gold Tip XT ±.003", and the Gold Tip Pro ±.001". They're literally cut from the same cloth.

Small variations in the daily manufacturing environment (humidity, pressure, air convection patterns, etc.) along with tiny deviations in the characteristics of the raw materials ultimately determines the straightness of the finished product. On one particular day, the manufacturer might yield an entire batch of ±.001" shafts, or an entire batch no better than ±.006", or even a mixed bag of straightnesses, all from the very same processes and materials. The finer tricks of the trade are carefully guarded secrets, as the art of consistently building straighter arrow shafts is literally a technical exercise in splitting hairs. But make no mistake, arrow manufacturers would rather avoid the ±.006" days. The more ±.001" days a manufacturer has, the more money they can make. Why? Because straighter shafts, whether they cost more to manufacture or not, are worth more in the marketplace. So don't be fooled into thinking that your set of $129 ±.001" pro-grade shafts are somehow fundamentally better constructed, stronger, or made from finer materials than a basic $69 a dozen ±.006" hunting shaft. In most cases, they're just a few thousandths of an inch from being the exact same product.



Straighter Arrows Shoot Straighter, Right?

From a pure physics standpoint, yes! Arrow straightness certainly does matter. Straighter arrows undeniably fly more accurately. In long-range laboratory conditions with a mechanical shooting machine, the straightest arrows with the best spine consistencies will always group best. But try to keep this issue in reasonable perspective. You are not a mechanical shooting machine. You don't shoot in laboratory conditions, and you probably don't shoot at extreme distances (100+ yards). The straightness difference in a ±.006" arrow and a ±.001" arrow is literally the width of a single human hair. So realistically, the ±.001" arrow probably has more to do with selling arrows than shooting arrows. The truth is, only a handful of the world's archers actually have enough shooting skill to differentiate between a very good ±.003" arrow and a "pro grade" ±.001" arrow. And within the typical bowhunting range, any difference would be practically imperceptible.

Nonetheless, bowhunters tend to attribute their successes or failures to their equipment rather than to their actual skills. So owning and shooting a set of professional grade ±.001" arrows may provide some bowhunters with an edge in confidence, even if the actual technical advantage is negligible. If you're one of the many archers who believe that success is only one more purchase away, buy whatever arrows you like. Just remember that super-straight arrows won't correct poor shooting form. In the end, the benefits of a good practice regimen and proper bow tuning will FAR outweigh the benefits of shooting expensive arrow shafts.

Hey RiverBC , your post is the most logical and informed of the many on this site . I appreciated the facts and how you related them to the archer , even this old bowhunter learned something to-day and that is a good thing .
Cheers

Nobody
11-11-2011, 04:52 PM
Riverbc has put together a great reply and it shows a good knowledge base of the manufacturing process. But it was not untill the second to final paragraph that the nail was hit on the head. The section "the straightest arrows with the best spine consistencies will always group best" was the statement that was the closest to the reason for consistant groups.

When it comes to aluminum shafts, straightness is key....it is the number one issue that needs to be addressed right from the start and consistantly maintained. One should always check new shafts for straightness as you will usually find that they are often not straight (for a number of reasons). The spine on an aluminum arrow starts to break down on the first shot so it is hard to maintain a perfect spine one to the other, therefore straightness is paramount.

When it comes to carbon shafts, contrary to what you are lead to believe by the industry, the most important requirement is that all of the shafts in the bundle are to be of the same spine. I have tested carbon arrows that have had as much as a .017 runout from the center of the shaft to the end of the shaft and was still able to shoot it into exactly the same group at 90m each and every time. This is the minimun equivalent to a .0085+/- or more, depending on how the manufacture measures their product. All of my group testing is done with the aid of a shooting machine as this removes the element of human error. The second factor is that their respective weights should be as close as possible to exactly the same as all others in the group. Once this is done, then they should be numbered and shot through a shooting machine to ensure that their revelent spine indexing is the same, thus allowing them to group tightly if not in exactly the same hole as the remaining arrows in the group.

The one item that is most overlooked and/or abused by archers is their nocks. I see them being turned by wrenches, pliers, teeth and clipping them on the bowstring and forcing them to turn. These are all very bad habits that lead to inconsistancy and/or failure. Treat them with respect, do it right and spin test them for straightness. Buy quality nocks because, believe me, they are all not created equal.

Stay safe and shoot well.