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garsher
05-06-2007, 08:37 AM
Hey guys, me again.

I'm thinking of getting a new shotgun, and I was leaning towards and over and under, hinged action shotgun. Largely because you can have different choke tubes on the different barrels, which i think is very useful.

I was looking at this one-->http://www.wholesalesports.com/onlinestore/control/category/~category_id=10120009010279

Any comments or feedback about the gun will be much appreciated.

It says it has a 3" chamber, does that mean I can also shoot 2 3/4 inch shells as well? I'm assuming yes.

johnes50
05-06-2007, 08:46 AM
What you plan on hunting has some bearing on your choice of shotguns. Uplands birds or waterfowl hunting, skeet or trap shooting? Stoegers a nice shotgun, but their are lots of choices depending on what you want to do with it.

You can shoot 3" or anything smaller in a 3" chamber, but nothing bigger.

Dirty
05-06-2007, 08:49 AM
It says it has a 3" chamber, does that mean I can also shoot 2 3/4 inch shells as well? I'm assuming yes.

Yes, a 3" chamber will accept 2.75" as well.

garsher
05-06-2007, 07:03 PM
Im planning on doing duck hunting, maybe little bit of goose. The only thing I'm concered about is, Is the shotgun above made for using steel shot? Cause I heard the compititon ones are made for lead, and they will break with steel shot in them.

Mr. Dean
05-06-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm an O/U fan but have no experience with this gun nor do I hunt waterfowl. I think that the duck and goose hunters like the pumps and semi-auto's for some reason.

It does have a attractive price for a doubled barrel gun.

JoshLedoux
05-06-2007, 08:04 PM
there is a reason stoeger's and baikals have such an attractive price, they are of poor fit and finish and usually stiff actions. I have seen more than one with an untrue rib on it. Steel will not harm them as long as the modified choke is in this holds true for most modern shotguns. My recommendation would be to wait until a good used shotgun comes in at that price and and then have chokes installed, or have the existing chokes bored to something you like. if you are hunting waterfowl for the most part, a pump or autoloader (preferably remington for me) is for advantagious. The third shot is nice to have and they generally stand up better to the poor conditions and environment waterfowl guns are subjected to. also try out a few o/u's before buying one, i know I for one cannot shoot one as my left eye tracks down the side of the barrel as oppose to overtop and I then can't hit a f*^&in thing with them.

Murder
05-06-2007, 08:05 PM
Never used an o/u, but I think a pump is a must for waterfowl, especially for that extra shell.

30-06
05-06-2007, 08:12 PM
the browning cynergy's are nice.someone on here has one for sale to

1/2 slam
05-07-2007, 09:06 AM
I'm with Josh on this one. Any Stoeger I've ever handled felt like a CLUB in my hands.

Dirty
05-07-2007, 09:38 AM
Get a Remington 870 pump shotgun, it will be more useful for a new bird hunter. The third shot will most likely come in extra handy :lol: . The 870's are relatively inexpensive as well and handle the muck and water well. I believe you can get a 3.5" chamber 870 for under $400. The 3.5" will also shoot 3" and 2.75" shells.

Mr. Dean
05-07-2007, 10:48 AM
Garsher;

If you ever happen to be out my way, give me a shout. I have a 2 year old Bakail 20ga that I think to be a decent shooter. It has all the options that I look for in an O/U (the newer ones are said to be waaaay nicer that the older ones...). They're about the same money as the Stoeger that you're looking at. I also have a Ruger Red Label 12ga O/U that you could handle/compare as well. I also have some pumps and auto's... Maybe we could do a round or two of clay busting @ the local club here?

The most important thing w/ a shotty is that you find one that fits... Targets fly bye FAST and you don't have time making things line up - It all needs to be natural.

But again though, if you're seriously wanting to go off waterfowling, then there are better styles out there that are suited for that endevour.

We have a member here called Derp. I know he's been recently looking for a shotty as well. He may know of some deals. He's found a fantastic used Browning BPS (pump gun) for himself that was well under $400 (if I recall correctly). I've seen it and its a REAL SWEET GUN!

Good luck!

garsher
05-07-2007, 04:17 PM
So I gues Stoeger is a bad company then. Ok gotcha. I'll just get a semi auto or pump then. I'm new to waterfowl, and I will be needing that extra shot.

Crazy_Farmer
05-07-2007, 05:18 PM
Well, its not the fact that you need that third shoot, if you're a great shot you should have two birds each time they come in, but nobodys prefect so thats why that third shoot can comes in handy. I know for me I'm glad I bought a 870 Supermag first before my semi-auto winchester sx2. Got me used to zoning onto a bird and firing at it instead of just at the cloud of them coming in. When I bought my semi-auto I have to say the first time I shot it, I fired all three shots faster then I ever have before, and I think I only hit one bird. That was my reasoning to buy my browning citori o/u. Compared to most other o/u's it was cheaper then most but still had the ability to shoot 3 1/2'' shells out of it which only a few o/u's have, still it ran me about $1600+tax. I feel this gun should help me get better becuase only having two shoots forces you to make those shots count.

I think that a 870 is probably the best shotgun you could go with to start.

garsher
05-08-2007, 07:02 AM
Ya, you got a good point. It makes you think before you just pull the trigger and waste a round.

I think im gonna go with the 870 as well. Pump actions are cool.

garsher
05-09-2007, 09:34 PM
what do you guys have to say about the mossberg 500's? I saw some at whole sale sports for $350.

Which would you recommend? mossberg 500 or remington 870?

Dirty
05-09-2007, 09:39 PM
Get the 870 supermag you won't be sorry. You can also easily sell it down the road if you want to get something different.

Mr. Dean
05-09-2007, 11:42 PM
Which would you recommend? mossberg 500 or remington 870?

Flip a coin.
I'd lean towards the 870 but would take whatever was comfortable.

MichelD
05-30-2007, 05:41 PM
870

Piece of cake to clean once you learn how.

Is a 3 1/2 -inch gun necessary? I don't know. The 3 1/2-inch shell does shoot a bigger payload.

Some would argue that your wallet and your shoulder will hate you if you shoot 3 1/2 -inch shells regularly.

Most guys I know use 3-inch even on geese.

Dirty
05-30-2007, 06:22 PM
870

Piece of cake to clean once you learn how.

Is a 3 1/2 -inch gun necessary? I don't know. The 3 1/2-inch shell does shoot a bigger payload.

Some would argue that your wallet and your shoulder will hate you if you shoot 3 1/2 -inch shells regularly.

Most guys I know use 3-inch even on geese.
The recoil on a 3.5" isn't much worse than a 3" shotgun and you can pick up boxes of #2 3.5" shells for $14.99 if you know where to look. That is only $2.00 more than the 3" and 2.75" shells. The 3.5" shells are nice for long shots on ducks that have become shy later in the season. In addition, they are great for geese. In addition, if you buy a 3.5" chambered shotgun you can also use 3" and 2.75" shells. You do not have that option with 3" chamber guns or 2.75" chambered guns. If you go the supermag you can shoot whatever shells you want.

MichelD
05-31-2007, 07:38 AM
"The 3.5" shells are nice for long shots on ducks that have become shy later in the season. In addition, they are great for geese."

You realize that the 3.5" shells don't hit ducks any harder than anything else? They do however, send more pellets into the sky.

And I have heard of more problems with the 3.5" - inch Remington Supermag 870 than the other 870 models.

Ian F.
05-31-2007, 10:10 AM
Stoeger, Baikal and a few others are made in the same factory and labelled to the seller. They are entry level guns, with features that are associated with that price level. Most I have shoulder are clubby and don't feel good for me. BUT, there are a few nice ones within the pile that are weight right, swing and feel good and after some break in work beyond their price range, but they are not the norm.

The present turkish made guns are a great mid-range comprimize with good value and good fit and function, look at the CZ's I think they make one around $500 that's a great deal. I've shouldered one and it swung and felt like a Citori Hunting.

Next step up would be Winchesters, which I think are the best value in O/U's right now. Made in the FN factory in Belgium, John M superposed design, but a Winchester price as Browning owns them and want's the perception of Brownings superiority to remain.

You know move into Brownings and beyond, and are up to $1800 and up..

Practical choice for someone starting out in this game... Buy an 870 express 3". Make sure you have an IC and Mod choke and you are good to go for just about anything! Head out to the range and shoot it as much as you can before the season and you'll have the shooting part of duck hunting figured out, if you figure out the rest let me know, cause I've been trying to for more then 20 years!

Lastly, once you buy and express (new or used) if you want to upgrade later you wont loose much on the price as they hold pretty stable in that $200-$300 range, condition dependant.

Very best,

Ian

MichelD
05-31-2007, 12:40 PM
Listen to Ian. He knows what he's talking about.

Besides that, he agrees with me.

He just recommended my shotgun. A 3-inch 870 Express with a modified and an IC choke.

Dirty
06-01-2007, 12:27 PM
"The 3.5" shells are nice for long shots on ducks that have become shy later in the season. In addition, they are great for geese."

You realize that the 3.5" shells don't hit ducks any harder than anything else? They do however, send more pellets into the sky.

And I have heard of more problems with the 3.5" - inch Remington Supermag 870 than the other 870 models.

You are wrong. The 3.5 inch do not shoot more shot into the sky, they have more powder in the shells. If you look at a 3.5 inch 1 3/8 ounce #2 side by side with a 3.0" inch 1 3/8 ounce #2 shell, you are honestly going to tell me that the 3.5 inch is just putting more pellets into the sky? They have the same variability of shot weights but the 3.5" has more powder and thus more velocity. Therefore, there will be better range with the greater velocity. If you would like to discuss the physics of it shoot me a PM.

MichelD
06-01-2007, 10:32 PM
I was wrong once before.

Dano
06-02-2007, 10:00 AM
I looked at my Winchester HV 2 3/4" #4 steel, it has 1 1/16 oz, my 3" Winchester HV #4 steel has 1 1/8 oz. I've never never bought 3 1/2" shells but have looked at them and I find it hard to believe the manufacturers would make a larger cartrige and not up the payload.
I use both 2 3/4" and 3" during the season. I use 3" BB for geese and prefer the 3" if I shoot #2 steel for ducks, it does have more shot per shell than the 2 3/4" brand I shoot. I know it's only 1/16 oz of shot but it's a few more pellets and also, it's steel so there are more pellets per oz than lead (lead is heavier...)
We are talking steel here, maybe lead shells are different. Would like to know which brand of shell has 1 3/8 oz load as I haven't ever seen them.
Dan

Crazy_Farmer
06-02-2007, 12:45 PM
A few companies make the 1 3/8 load but its mainly in 3 1/2 shells and larger shot size. Winchester 3 1/2 HV expert shells have 1 3/8 ounce loads in 2,3 or BB. Thats all we use for geese. Also Kent fasteel is from 1 3/8 to 1 9/16.

We got some old turkey load 3 1/2s #6s at 2 1/4 ounce but are lead, they sure can kick pretty good.

Dirty
06-02-2007, 07:18 PM
Would like to know which brand of shell has 1 3/8 oz load as I haven't ever seen them.
Dan

Winchester were the brand that I got that were 1 3/8 ounces of shot.

MichelD
06-03-2007, 07:32 PM
Looking at the SIR catalogue I see that Winchester offers their Xpert Hi-Velocity steel shotshells in 3 1/2 inch loads with 1 3/8 oz. of shot at 1550 FPS and their 3-inch loads with 1 1/8 oz. loads at 1550 FPS

The Canadian company Challenger also offers 1 3/8 oz steel loads at 1550 FPS in the 3 1/2 inch shells and 1 1/8 oz loads in their 3-inch shells at 1550 FPS.

Remington Sportsman Hi-Speed shells come in 1 3/8 oz. loads in their 3 1/2 inch shells at 1550 FPs and their 3-inch shells have 1 1/8 oz. loads going 1550 FPS.

Winchester Supreme HV shotshells come in 1 3/8 oz. loads in 3 1/2 inch shells at 1450 FPS and the 3-inch shells deliver 1 1/4 oz. loads at 1450 FPS.

Dano
06-03-2007, 10:06 PM
I found some 3" shells today that had 1 3/8 oz of shot. They were Bismuth loads, 10 shells for $30. I did see some Federal Premium 3" that if I remember correctly were 1 1/4 oz and about $20+ for a box of 25.
Dirty, what were the 1 3/8 oz shells you had, 3" or 3 1/2"? Are you shooting the $30 3", 10 shell a box ammo?
Dan

Ian F.
06-04-2007, 05:53 AM
I've had issues with challengers in the past.

FASTEELŪ Waterfowl
Product Gauge Shell
Length Dram
Equivalent Velocity
F.P.S. Shot
Charge Shot
Size
K1235ST44-BBB,BB,1,2,3 12 3 1/2" MAX 1300 1 9/16 oz. BBB,BB,1,2,3
K1235ST40-BBB,BB,1,2,3,4 12 3 1/2" MAX 1550 1 3/8 oz. BBB,BB,1,2,3,4
K1235ST36-BB,1,2,3 NEW 12 3 1/2" MAX 1625 1 1/4oz. BB, 1,2,3
K123ST40-BBB,BB,1,2,3,4 12 3" MAX 1300 1 3/8 oz. BBB,BB,1,2,3,4
K123ST36-BBB,BB,1,2,3,4 12 3" MAX 1425 1 1/4 oz. BBB,BB,1,2,3,4
K123ST32-BB,1,2,3,4,6 12 3" MAX 1560 1 1/8 oz. BB,1,2,3,4,6
K122ST36-BB,1,2,3,4,6 12 2 3/4" MAX 1300 1 1/4 oz. BB,1,2,3,4,6
K122ST32-BB,2,3,4,6 12 2 3/4" MAX 1425 1 1/8 oz. BB,2,3,4,6
K122ST30-BB,1,2,3,4 12 2 3/4" MAX 1550 1 1/16 oz. BB,1,2,3,4
K203ST24-2,3,4 20 3" MAX 1550 7/8 oz. 2,3,4


My formula has always been 1 1/4oz going at least 1300 fps will scare all the birds I need it too! My plans this year are for the 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz load by kent listed above.

Ian

gameslayer
06-06-2007, 09:40 PM
Hello,
I am hitchhiking a bit on gnasher's thread, I am in the market as well for a shot gun for duck & geese. So Ian are you suggesting just the 870 Express 3" and not the 3.5". I have never owned a shot gun and am just getting started with duck hunting and was going to buy the 3.5 inch is the reason the 3" is better because of the cost of shells are cheaper. As well I guess I need to look into choke options??

Ian F.
06-07-2007, 06:24 AM
My point is 3.5" is NO BETTER then 3" and sometimes even 2 3/4" Look at the various loads on the market objectively focusing on payload and speed, and ignor the length.

The single biggest thing in all shotgun activities is being on target, and that means going to the range and LEARNING TO SHOOT! The second factor is to pattern your gun with various loads and see what your gun looks like and not just what some guy tells you!

I grew up in a waterfowling family with a long tradition of chasing ducks going all way back to "the old country" and the first gun I was allowed to use was a single shot, I had to use it until I could consistantly hit stuff with one shot before I could move on. The focus then became you ability to use the weapon, and not just the amount of lead you could fling in the air.

If you think 3.5 will help you at some point in time don't let me turn you off it, but if you think that having 3.5 means you'll buy 3.5 shells for more $$ even though 2 3/4 will do the job and $$ is a concern for you then take that into consideration. Remember, it's about payload and velocity, not length!. I shoot a 2 or 3 cases of shells at feathered creatures each year, so costs add up, what I take into consideration may be different if you are just shooting a few boxes a year.

Remember, whatever you buy

PRACTICE,
PRACTICE,
PRACTICE,
Pattern!

Very best,

Ian

boxhitch
06-07-2007, 08:11 AM
I don't have much experience here, but bare with me -
I was under the impression that a higher pellet count was desirable due to the fact shot does not arrive at the target all at the same time, actuallly forms a string, long column front to back. And the density of this string related to the numbers of pellets that actually contact the bird/target as it is moving past. We're talking moving targets here. The ideal was to use as small a shot size as was effective for range and target 'toughness' (?)
Why shoot #4 for clays when #7 would do, and have twice as many pellets in the air ? Same for fast ducks no doubt.
Will have to dig up the books to re-read.

Ian F.
06-07-2007, 09:42 AM
Pellet count is derived from the WEIGHT of the shot, the point I've been making all along. As you increase the payload you potentially increase the pellet count.

Lets look at that "potentially" if you take 1oz of shot you have 1 oz? but, change the pellet size and you change the number of projectiles. We are talking steel here too, not lead as this is about waterfowling, not upland. 1oz of steel bb's = 79 pellets, #1's = 116, #3's 173, #4's 211 (http://www.precisionreloading.com/steel_shot.htm) so as size reduces pellet count goes up, BUT as pellet size reduces, so does it's ability to retain energy and it's energy that creates the killing effect we are after. In response to using steel, which is lighter then lead you need to increase pellet size to get the same energy at target. Notice I'm talking energy, which should be ft/lbs of energy, but energy works. Velocity is a factor in energy but so is weight. THe formula is velocity x velocity x weight, so you can see that weight has a huge influence on the outcome.

So this gets us the projectile going fast enough to create a killing effect, and if you spent much time chasing ducks you will know it only takes 1 pellet to do the killing. However, law of averages say that we want to increase out odds to the greatest point possible. This is where shot string comes into play, along with patterning. ANyone can pattern there gun and see the distrubution of the pellets on a circle which is a 2 demensional representation of a 3D effect, restated, not all pellets reach the same point at the same time. Modern belief is that this is bad and we need all the pellets hitting together. I split the difference and say you want a shorter shot string, but you still want a shot string. Why? think in 3d, not 2d, you don't know which pellet, at which point in the string will make the killing hit, if you could have all at the same time you also have the potential to be before or after the target. In effect we want to have a tennis racket effect and "swat" out targets...

I've found for ducks #3's the be the best all around shot, it'll take everything from eiders to teal and make them dead. #4's are fine for decoying puddlers, but can be light on tougher divers. #2's for snows and bb's for honkers are my reccomendations and I always fall back tot he forumla that has served me well since 96 when we lost our friend lead shot. Have at least 1 1/4oz going at least 1300fps and you'll scare all the birds you need too.

So to try and tie this up, at least from where I stand..

PRACTICE,
PRACTICE,
PRACTICE,

If you can't hit the target nothing else matters.

Pattern your gun and know how it hits.

If you feel a shot shot string is in order for you, get a wad grabber choke like a patternmasters.

THe key to being sucessful is knowing your gun and what it will do. Knowing yourself and what you can do and staying within those boundaries. Reach beyond them and you cripple or miss birds and so on. Place a decoy at 40yards, never shoot a bird beyond that point! I like em 20 yards whenever I can get them to cooperate and rarely take long shots.

Find a load that works for you and stick with it, if you keep changing loads everything else changes. Stick with one gun till you get familar with it, and above all have fun and pass on what you learn to anyone wanting similar!

Very best,

Ian

Crazy_Farmer
06-07-2007, 06:24 PM
Good Post. As for the Patternmaster choke, I run a Wad Wizard extended one, basically the same kind of choke, it slows the wad for a brief moment as it leaves the gun and forces all the pellets to stay together longer. Which means the pattern stays tighter for longer and those pellets arrive closer together rather then a long shot string. I'll tell you, since I've used this choke mainly for field geese and ducks when you hit something right its dead. They fold up when you hit them and I find when you do hit them you have less coasters. Since I havent used it that long I will say that you either crush them or dont even scrath them, I'd say thats just more of a problem on my end not fully adjusted to the choke yet. So I have to say just like Ian has said practice and then practice some more, I'm sure in time I'll work out all the kinks but get used to your gun and you'll be a great shot.

gameslayer
06-07-2007, 10:21 PM
[quote=Ian F.;155938]My point is 3.5" is NO BETTER then 3" and sometimes even 2 3/4" Look at the various loads on the market objectively focusing on payload and speed, and ignor the length.

The single biggest thing in all shotgun activities is being on target, and that means going to the range and LEARNING TO SHOOT! The second factor is to pattern your gun with various loads and see what your gun looks like and not just what some guy tells you!

I grew up in a waterfowling family with a long tradition of chasing ducks going all way back to "the old country" and the first gun I was allowed to use was a single shot, I had to use it until I could consistantly hit stuff with one shot before I could move on. The focus then became you ability to use the weapon, and not just the amount of lead you could fling in the air.

If you think 3.5 will help you at some point in time don't let me turn you off it, but if you think that having 3.5 means you'll buy 3.5 shells for more $$ even though 2 3/4 will do the job and $$ is a concern for you then take that into consideration. Remember, it's about payload and velocity, not length!. I shoot a 2 or 3 cases of shells at feathered creatures each year, so costs add up, what I take into consideration may be different if you are just shooting a few boxes a year.

Thanks Ian,
This is a very educational thread for me. I totally agree with the practice, and cost is definatly a consideration. From my understanding the 870 express 3.5 can shoot the 2.75 and up. So I could just shoot the cheaper stuff or what ever load works for me but still have the option for the more expensive loads if I just plain suck. I posted on anther thread asking how the pitmedows range works had no replys. Can anyone use it or how does i work.

Dirty
06-07-2007, 11:15 PM
The nice thing about the 3.5 inch is you can use all shell sizes in it. With a 3 inch you can only use 3's and 2.75's. If you ever wanted to try the 3.5's for geese or turkey or whatever you wouldn't be able to. The 3.5 inch Remington 870 is around the same price as the 3inch as well. Just because the gun handles 3.5 inch shells doesn't mean you have to use them. It just seems like a sensible decision to me, the availability of 3.5" will be there when you want it or need it.

MichelD
06-08-2007, 12:13 PM
Gameslayer, there are seven postings here, including yours:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=12589

Ian F.
06-08-2007, 02:24 PM
And to put a little math on all of this, as afterall isn't that what we've been talking?

I did a little digging and the largest payload in 3.5" I could find was 1 9/16oz, the largest in 3" was 1 3/8oz and the largest in 2 3/4" 1 1/4oz. The difference between 1 9/16oz and 1 3/8oz of shot is 15% or 30 pellets for BB's, 79 for $4's, but the difference in price, using Macks numbers (u.s. I know, but handy) is $20 to $60 per case, depending on brand. So if that 15% matters, spend the bucks, if not get some 1 3/8oz, 3" Kents and save some serious dough and know that there is only a 15% difference in shot count. A quick look at wholesales prices see that that 15% costs you $5 (3.5 1 9/16 $22, 3" 1 3/8 $17) or for every 3 boxes of 1 9/16oz 3.5oz shells, you can buy 4 boxes of 1 3/8oz 3's

So theres a few more numbers to cogitate on.... how long till duck season?

Very best,

Ian

P.S. if you want the spreadsheet, just say the word

regoc
03-15-2009, 08:11 PM
http://www.wholesalesports.com/onlinestore/control/category/~category_id=10120009010282/~pcategory=1012000901
Have a look at this one here too, for not much more money you will get two sets of barrels, 12 and 20 gauge. Same brand. Nothing very fancy but shoots fine, used to have it for number of years before I switch to semi-auto.