PDA

View Full Version : Drone Reminder- Wildfires



BCWF
08-18-2015, 12:20 PM
Just a reminder for those with Drones

Make sure you are not interfering with the airspace over an active fire- Lives are at stake!







http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/general-recavi-uav-2265.htm

stevo911_
08-18-2015, 12:24 PM
They should just start giving the firefighters a goose gun and shooting the things down, this is getting ridiculous!

BiG Boar
08-18-2015, 12:44 PM
Is this a real problem these days?

wideopenthrottle
08-18-2015, 12:49 PM
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/b-c-wildfires-drone-grounds-firefighting-aircraft-30-homes-lost-1.2519983

Caribou_lou
08-18-2015, 10:07 PM
Why are drones legal to have in the first place?

chrismcd
08-18-2015, 10:20 PM
Drones are legal for the same reason kites, rc cars and planes are. tbh though I didnt realize someone would not realize it's a bad idea in the first place ✈��

Caribou_lou
08-18-2015, 10:59 PM
Drones are legal for the same reason kites, rc cars and planes are. tbh though I didnt realize someone would not realize it's a bad idea in the first place ✈��

You would almost put them in a class of there own. Drones can be maneuvered and pointed much easier than those other examples you classed them with.

adriaticum
08-18-2015, 11:06 PM
Is this a real problem these days?

yes. Peeping toms, drugs delivered to prisons etc.
It is a problem if we make it so.

BimmerBob
08-18-2015, 11:32 PM
It seems to me that people making the "ban the drones" arguments have a lot in common with the "ban the guns" folks.

While the object, (drone/firearm) may be different, the same rational of the firearms proponents (us firearms owners) would be that you correct/remove the action rather than banning the object. Since it is behavior that is the problem not the object, you correct the behavior (inappropriate flying of drones) rather than banning the object (the drone) itself.

Also, since these transmitter/receivers in drones work in the 2.4 ghz range they could establish no-fly zones pretty quickly by putting up a transportable frequency-jammers at sites that would make flying them impossible. I do however think that drones could be used by the people fighting these fires to check areas without endangering personnel, they could transmit gps coordinates to water bombers and helicopters to allow more accurate targeting of fire-spots during times of heavy smoke as the drones could fly into the smoke without sacrifice/danger.

ruger#1
08-19-2015, 02:39 AM
Drones are legal for the same reason kites, rc cars and planes are. tbh though I didnt realize someone would not realize it's a bad idea in the first place ✈��yes they are legal. And they have rules for them. Like no flying with in 9kms of an airport. And they sure as he'll shouldn't be flying around fire fighting equipment. I know one farmer . His neighbour was flying one around their barn. They took the ten gauge . And winged it. . It is the same as quad rules. No body knows what the rules are. An average Joe can buy one. A set of rules should come with a drone and a atv. Some common sense goes a long ways.

IslandBC
08-20-2015, 08:10 AM
a drone would be pretty sweet for some pre season bird watching :D

Ozone
08-20-2015, 08:55 AM
Can someone explain why you would want to fly around a forest fire?

metalface
08-20-2015, 09:00 AM
Can someone explain why you would want to fly around a forest fire?

because nerds wanna get on the news

MichelD
08-20-2015, 09:01 AM
How about an open season?

Amphibious
08-20-2015, 10:32 AM
Can someone explain why you would want to fly around a forest fire?

Today's narcissistic society compels people to be the first to share some "Epic dudebro awesomeness" on social media. How many risks are taken these days solely for the purpose of getting it on video?

Drones are a serious issue for aviators. They can quite easily bring an aircraft down. If a bucketing helicopter traveling 50-80kts (90-150kph) takes one through it's wafer thin plexi windscreen, the pilot is going to have a very bad day.

wideopenthrottle
08-20-2015, 11:16 AM
Today's narcissistic society compels people to be the first to share some "Epic dudebro awesomeness" on social media. How many risks are taken these days solely for the purpose of getting it on video?

Drones are a serious issue for aviators. They can quite easily bring an aircraft down. If a bucketing helicopter traveling 50-80kts (90-150kph) takes one through it's wafer thin plexi windscreen, the pilot is going to have a very bad day.

have you ever seen the damage a little poplar stick can do to the rotors on a heli...I would think a drone could easily down a heli if it hit the rotors or jet turbine

Amphibious
08-20-2015, 03:33 PM
have you ever seen the damage a little poplar stick can do to the rotors on a heli...I would think a drone could easily down a heli if it hit the rotors or jet turbine

Landing on a beach in Haiti I struck a plastic soda bottle with my main rotors. It folded over one blades and stuck there. The resulting imbalance almost rolled the aircraft. It really doesn't take much.

wideopenthrottle
08-20-2015, 08:48 PM
Landing on a beach in Haiti I struck a plastic soda bottle with my main rotors. It folded over one blades and stuck there. The resulting imbalance almost rolled the aircraft. It really doesn't take much.
holy crap....wild....glad you pulled off not flipping...

ruger#1
08-21-2015, 05:54 AM
Can someone explain why you would want to fly around a forest fire? Because they are Stupid. That sounds about right.

M.Dean
08-21-2015, 07:02 AM
Hey, I got in big dog doo doo talking about "Shooting" down a drone, so just a heads up, even if you see a chopper with a water bucket coming in during a fire, and there's a school bus filled with 50 or so kids, and you see some ass-hol* with a drone buzzing around the area and the chopper can't drop the water on the fire to save the 50 kid's, "Do Not" shoot the "Drone"!!! There's a few members on here that'll get your ass thrown in jail quicker than you can count the fried body's!!! So, remember, these brain dead Muther's that fly drones around a raging fire have "Right's" too, and if do come across this bus full of kids in the middle of a big forest fire, go home and phone 5-5-5-5 to report it, or e-mail the forestry service and they can send a crew out in a few days!!! I'm glad I got that issue cleared up!

guntech
08-21-2015, 08:51 AM
Can someone explain why you would want to fly around a forest fire?

Flying around it is safer than flying into it... :p

Drones must be flown within view of the operator so I suspect there are very few instances of drones interfering with fire fighters... there is a danger but I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

rocksteady
08-21-2015, 10:06 AM
Flying around it is safer than flying into it... :p

Drones must be flown within view of the operator so I suspect there are very few instances of drones interfering with fire fighters... there is a danger but I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

There have been several incidents in BC now and numerous down in the US where drones are invading the airspace of helicopters and other fire fighting aircraft.

I do not think it being blown out of proportion. It is a real hazard where the end result could be death to one or more individuals.

Pilots have enough on their minds and tasks at hand in order to keep a heli in the air, last thing they need is some knob with a drone trying to get some footage for youtube, and flying into the damn thing with a heli or air tanker.. Seagulls have been known to down aircraft at airports, by getting sucked into the turbine and most of these drones are bigger, heavier and not built of guts and feathers.


The new drones have a 2 km reach from the operator and an on board real time camera, so someone could use one and not be anywhere near the fireline themselves..

Citori54
08-21-2015, 10:38 AM
It was not blown out of proportion. At the fire near Oliver it grounded aircraft for more than 5 hours. If it was your house being threatened and no aircraft could deliver water I am sure you would think differently. There have been dozens of incidents around airports recently involving drones.

guntech
08-21-2015, 12:44 PM
So why haven't these drone operators been found and questioned and charged? Grounding aircraft at Oliver for 5 hours! That's ridiculous. It took 5 hours to find the offenders? It is a real hazard but I still think it is blown out of proportion.

phoenix
08-21-2015, 03:56 PM
So why haven't these drone operators been found and questioned and charged? Grounding aircraft at Oliver for 5 hours! That's ridiculous. It took 5 hours to find the offenders? It is a real hazard but I still think it is blown out of proportion.

I'm with Dennis on this one. I have 4 "drones" (FPV multi-copters if you want to use the right terminology and not stupid media-speak) the largest of which weighs less than an average raven. Do they stop flying if there are ravens in the air? Of course not. They are also quite small and could only be seen from the ground if they are flying well below where the aircraft are flying, even water-bombers. Should the "drones" be flying there? Of course not. But to shut down all air operations because somebody sees a "drone" is IMO ridiculous. I see planes and helicopters flying at Kelowna airport all the time with huge flocks of ducks and geese flying right in the flight path and those aircraft are taking off and landing which is when they are most vulnerable. I have never even heard a tower advisory, I listen to it all the time on my scanner, of birds in the flight path much less them shutting down the airport because of them. My larger FPV aircraft are planes that are made of foam, considerably softer than any bird. You also have to realize that most multi-copters only have a 5-10 minute flight time so the operator is not all that far away. Most also cost $500 and up so the owner is not going to risk it needlessly letting it crash into a full size plane or helicopter. They also only have a low-def flight camera and the operator has to recover the craft to get the onboard hi-def video from the recording camera to post something good on YouTube or Vimeo.

Citori54
08-21-2015, 05:39 PM
I've spent years in and around helicopters and you would be amazed at what can damage a rotor. I think the pilots are pretty much more aware of the hazards than a drone operator. This sounds like the same type of nonsense someone posted on this site a while back trying to convince us that a cigarette would not start a wild fire. I can see how that theory played out this year. I normally enjoy Dennis's opinions on things as he is a real common sense guy (not to mention very skilled smith) but can't agree this time.

guntech
08-21-2015, 08:55 PM
Hey, it's just my opinion that it is blown out of proportion... everyone has one... grounding for 5 hours when a remote control helicopter can only fly for maybe 30 minutes at tops... and in close proximity to the operator... were there several remotes being flown in the fire area? The operators would have to be close to the fire...

Firstblood
08-22-2015, 12:50 AM
I was cruising through the hunting regs and in big red letters it says
"it is unlawful to use a helicopter, including a drone, while on a hunting expedition." hows that for vague. what about filming hunts with it, apparently thats a no. In and around fires every one wants to get the best youtube video, its all driven by social media, sadly common sense does not prevail.

Amphibious
08-22-2015, 04:15 AM
I'm with Dennis on this one. I have 4 "drones" (FPV multi-copters if you want to use the right terminology and not stupid media-speak) the largest of which weighs less than an average raven. Do they stop flying if there are ravens in the air? Of course not. They are also quite small and could only be seen from the ground if they are flying well below where the aircraft are flying, even water-bombers. Should the "drones" be flying there? Of course not. But to shut down all air operations because somebody sees a "drone" is IMO ridiculous. I see planes and helicopters flying at Kelowna airport all the time with huge flocks of ducks and geese flying right in the flight path and those aircraft are taking off and landing which is when they are most vulnerable. I have never even heard a tower advisory, I listen to it all the time on my scanner, of birds in the flight path much less them shutting down the airport because of them. My larger FPV aircraft are planes that are made of foam, considerably softer than any bird. You also have to realize that most multi-copters only have a 5-10 minute flight time so the operator is not all that far away. Most also cost $500 and up so the owner is not going to risk it needlessly letting it crash into a full size plane or helicopter. They also only have a low-def flight camera and the operator has to recover the craft to get the onboard hi-def video from the recording camera to post something good on YouTube or Vimeo.

Ugh. It's painfully obvious you're not a pilot and have little concept of the risk factors when conducting flights. Just because there isn't a bird advisory at YLW doesn't mean there aren't lots of them at other airports across the world. Birds (most, pelicans are ******s) will instinctively avoid most aircraft. So you have both the bird avoiding, and the pilot, and yet bird strikes happen all the time. I've had two in my career, and countless near misses. It is extremely costly to fix even the smallest problems on helicopters. Something as insignificant as a thumbprint size dent in a rotor blade can result in over $100,000 replacement.

Cost? Tourists and Albertards flock to the okanagan every summer and destroy their wakeboats, quads, dirtbikes, etc doing stupid shit, and they're attached to the expensive toy they're ruining. You think this mindset cares about a $500-$2000 toy they're safely detached from?

Foam can be ingested into the intake plenum and partially block the particle separator or FOD out an engine. At the very least the Aircraft now has a panel light or increasing temp situation and has to break off from bucketing operations to sort it out, wasting time, resources, and hampering the mission.

Look at it from the pilots point of view. The pilot is trying to fly a complex machine, in very close proximity to structure and ground personnel, manage a longline (A misplaced bucket drop will kill someone, and we drop within meters of the ground crew), navigate with his GPS and/or fire maps, Listen to and talk on up to four radio frequencies at once, and avoid other aircraft and birds. Now toss some D-Bag with a drone trying to get video into the mix. No thanks.

There is a 5 mile radius, 3000' agl flight restriction around the perimeter of the fire for very good reason. If your toy is flying within that, you are in violation.

Some reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/near-collisions-between-drones-airliners-surge-new-faa-reports-show/2014/11/26/9a8c1716-758c-11e4-bd1b-03009bd3e984_story.html

scoutlt1
08-22-2015, 07:07 AM
I had a good friend who was a fixed wing pilot and fought fires for many years. He was a pioneer in the business actually. He wrote a few books on the subject as well.
I'm sure he's rolling over in his grave knowing there's people flying drones in an area where planes and helicopters are fighting a fire.
Flying in those conditions is incredibly difficult and dangerous. Many pilots and crews have been lost over the years.
Why anyone would make things even more dangerous is absolutely beyond me!
Stupid is right....

guntech
08-22-2015, 07:54 AM
There is a 5 mile radius, 3000' agl flight restriction around the perimeter of the fire for very good reason. If your toy is flying within that, you are in violation.


So all that is really needed is to enforce the law and maybe publicize the names with pictures of the idiots flying these remote control planes. Shame them as well...

phoenix
08-22-2015, 09:01 AM
Ugh. It's painfully obvious you're not a pilot and have little concept of the risk factors when conducting flights. Just because there isn't a bird advisory at YLW doesn't mean there aren't lots of them at other airports across the world. Birds (most, pelicans are ******s) will instinctively avoid most aircraft. So you have both the bird avoiding, and the pilot, and yet bird strikes happen all the time. I've had two in my career, and countless near misses. It is extremely costly to fix even the smallest problems on helicopters. Something as insignificant as a thumbprint size dent in a rotor blade can result in over $100,000 replacement.

Cost? Tourists and Albertards flock to the okanagan every summer and destroy their wakeboats, quads, dirtbikes, etc doing stupid shit, and they're attached to the expensive toy they're ruining. You think this mindset cares about a $500-$2000 toy they're safely detached from?

Foam can be ingested into the intake plenum and partially block the particle separator or FOD out an engine. At the very least the Aircraft now has a panel light or increasing temp situation and has to break off from bucketing operations to sort it out, wasting time, resources, and hampering the mission.

Look at it from the pilots point of view. The pilot is trying to fly a complex machine, in very close proximity to structure and ground personnel, manage a longline (A misplaced bucket drop will kill someone, and we drop within meters of the ground crew), navigate with his GPS and/or fire maps, Listen to and talk on up to four radio frequencies at once, and avoid other aircraft and birds. Now toss some D-Bag with a drone trying to get video into the mix. No thanks.

There is a 5 mile radius, 3000' agl flight restriction around the perimeter of the fire for very good reason. If your toy is flying within that, you are in violation.

Some reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/near-collisions-between-drones-airliners-surge-new-faa-reports-show/2014/11/26/9a8c1716-758c-11e4-bd1b-03009bd3e984_story.html

Actually I do have my PPL, I just can't afford to use it much so I get my flying in with my FPV aircraft. All I was saying was that I think this whole "drone" thing is blown way out of proportion to the actual threat. I think any idiot who is caught flying one in any restricted airspace should get a huge fine and lose his toy but to shut down all air operations because there are a couple in the air is a bit of an over reaction IMO. You say that birds are trying to avoid accidents yet I got hit in the windshield of my jeep by a raven a couple of weeks ago and I was doing about 20kmh on a gravel road, obviously not a very skilled bird. Thankfully he wasn't flying near a fire. I also had a helicopter almost hit my multi-copter last year and by my OSD I was at 210' above my own property, who's fault would that have been? I heard him report it on the radio and make a comment about "another asshole with a drone". As I wasn't recording the flight I didn't bother to phone and report him for flying too low which is a very common occurrence where I am. Amazingly they didn't shut down air operations for hours either.

rocksteady
08-22-2015, 09:44 AM
So all that is really needed is to enforce the law and maybe publicize the names with pictures of the idiots flying these remote control planes. Shame them as well...

So you are supporting regulation and penalties, versus people just using common sense and respecting working aircraft.


that sounds kind of weird on HBC, are most of us not trying to lessen regulations (gun registry, etc ) with a more common sense approach.

I hope that no one has to have a mid air collision and possibly a fatal crash before these things are taken seriously.

Amphibious
08-22-2015, 10:01 AM
Actually I do have my PPL, I just can't afford to use it much so I get my flying in with my FPV aircraft.

Apples and oranges, errr, more like Cows? Not to rain on your parade, but a PPL and some RC toys gives you almost no insight into the world of operational pilots, especially rotor-wing.


I also had a helicopter almost hit my multi-copter last year and by my OSD I was at 210' above my own property, who's fault would that have been? I heard him report it on the radio and make a comment about "another asshole with a drone". As I wasn't recording the flight I didn't bother to phone and report him for flying too low which is a very common occurrence where I am. Amazingly they didn't shut down air operations for hours either.

If it was within the Kelowna control zone, you would most likely be at fault. Many legitimate reasons for an aircraft to be that low.

phoenix
08-22-2015, 10:39 AM
Apples and oranges, errr, more like Cows? Not to rain on your parade, but a PPL and some RC toys gives you almost no insight into the world of operational pilots, especially rotor-wing.



If it was within the Kelowna control zone, you would most likely be at fault. Many legitimate reasons for an aircraft to be that low.

By your own admission bird strikes happen all the time yet they don't shut down air operations because there are birds flying around, which there almost always are. But let somebody see one "drone" which will only be there for a few minutes and everything comes to a screeching halt for hours, doesn't make much sense to me. Or are you trying to say there were tons of "drones" around the fire?
I don't need any special "insight to the world of operational pilots" to know that some idiot flying his toy near working aircraft in controlled airspace is stupid, irresponsible and dangerous but does it really need the overblown response that we are seeing? I think not.
I am just outside of the airport control zone and as such I am allowed up to 400' AGL by TC so he was in MY airspace and was IMO just taking a little thrill ride way below his legal flying height. He either got startled by my multi being there which is hard to believe if he was paying attention as it has very bright LED's on it. Or, as I think was the case, he was maybe trying to knock my multi out of the air with his rotor wash and got surprised when it suddenly gained 150' as it had just started the RTL maneuvers on its' autonomous mission. Thank goodness for a really good self level on this multis' FCB and it saved itself. The one I did lose up there a few months earlier didn't have as good a FCB and when it was downed the exact same helicopter was in the area thus my suspicions of what happened.

Citori54
08-22-2015, 06:51 PM
Like the old saying goes Phoenix when you find yourself in hole, stop digging.

guntech
08-22-2015, 07:40 PM
So you are supporting regulation and penalties, versus people just using common sense and respecting working aircraft.


that sounds kind of weird on HBC, are most of us not trying to lessen regulations (gun registry, etc ) with a more common sense approach.

I hope that no one has to have a mid air collision and possibly a fatal crash before these things are taken seriously.

You have a comprehension problem. You don't need to attempt to make comparisons to the gun registry...

It was stated " Quote Originally Posted by Amphibious

There is a 5 mile radius, 3000' agl flight restriction around the perimeter of the fire for very good reason. If your toy is flying within that, you are in violation."


I responded, "So all that is really needed is to enforce the law and maybe publicize the names with pictures of the idiots flying these remote control planes. Shame them as well..."

Shouldn't they enforce the law to get these idiots to quit flying where they shouldn't? How do you think these people will develop some common sense and respect for the working aircraft?... by not doing anything and letting them continue?

phoenix
08-22-2015, 09:51 PM
Like the old saying goes Phoenix when you find yourself in hole, stop digging.

Exactly what hole am I in??
I did a search and as far as I can find there has NEVER been an aircraft/drone collision reported or confirmed yet there are thousands of aircraft/bird collisions reported and confirmed every year. In spite of that they fly where there are birds in the air all the time and yet shut down all air operations if there is just a reported sighting of a drone in the area. If that isn't an overblown and totally ridiculous media hysteria driven over response I don't know what is, which is what I think Guntech and for sure what I was saying in my original post.
BCWF's post should have read "Be sure to shoot every bird you see as they could down one of the brave pilots fighting the fires" It would have made about as much sense.
All along I have said that anyone flying in the restricted airspace around a forest fire or for that matter any restricted airspace with a "drone" is an idiot and a criminal and should be prosecuted to the furthest extent of the law but shutting down all air operations because of something that could, but has NEVER happened, is a total hysteria driven response to at this point a non-existant problem. According to my searches planes have even been downed by meteor fragments which makes even them a greater threat to aviation than "drones" yet I didn't see them stopping flight operations because of the Perseids Meteor Shower, I mean really, grab a brain and think for yourself.

rocksteady
08-23-2015, 08:06 AM
You have a comprehension problem. You don't need to attempt to make comparisons to the gun registry...

It was stated " Quote Originally Posted by Amphibious

There is a 5 mile radius, 3000' agl flight restriction around the perimeter of the fire for very good reason. If your toy is flying within that, you are in violation."


I responded, "So all that is really needed is to enforce the law and maybe publicize the names with pictures of the idiots flying these remote control planes. Shame them as well..."

Shouldn't they enforce the law to get these idiots to quit flying where they shouldn't? How do you think these people will develop some common sense and respect for the working aircraft?... by not doing anything and letting them continue?

I agree that the violators should be prosecuted. I was just pulling your leg as far as how I read your comment... Guess I forgot the winky face icon.

ruger#1
08-23-2015, 12:39 PM
Exactly what hole am I in??
I did a search and as far as I can find there has NEVER been an aircraft/drone collision reported or confirmed yet there are thousands of aircraft/bird collisions reported and confirmed every year. In spite of that they fly where there are birds in the air all the time and yet shut down all air operations if there is just a reported sighting of a drone in the area. If that isn't an overblown and totally ridiculous media hysteria driven over response I don't know what is, which is what I think Guntech and for sure what I was saying in my original post.
BCWF's post should have read "Be sure to shoot every bird you see as they could down one of the brave pilots fighting the fires" It would have made about as much sense.
All along I have said that anyone flying in the restricted airspace around a forest fire or for that matter any restricted airspace with a "drone" is an idiot and a criminal and should be prosecuted to the furthest extent of the law but shutting down all air operations because of something that could, but has NEVER happened, is a total hysteria driven response to at this point a non-existant problem. According to my searches planes have even been downed by meteor fragments which makes even them a greater threat to aviation than "drones" yet I didn't see them stopping flight operations because of the Perseids Meteor Shower, I mean really, grab a brain and think for yourself.
Kim, There is a difference. A drone can be controlled, Birds can not. They do try to scare birds away in major airports.

wideopenthrottle
08-24-2015, 08:25 AM
Kim, There is a difference. A drone can be controlled, Birds can not. They do try to scare birds away in major airports.

hey....maybe they could use drones for that...heheheh

DarekG
09-08-2015, 02:49 PM
Don't ban drones.

Don't shoot them either.

The problem isn't the tool its the people, just look in the news for angry farmers with nothing better to do then shoot $2500 drones out of the sky (and then have to pay for them) - Many drones are put to valid recreational use. Just because you don't appreciate something doesn't mean its inherently stupid.

If someone shot my drone out of the sky, you'd damn well expect some hell to pay.
You never know who is controlling that drone from the other end either.

All we need is better public education.

wideopenthrottle
09-08-2015, 03:00 PM
I read recently (regs) item #27 under it's unlawful..... this is new isn't it?
27 to use a helicopter, including a drone, while on a hunting expedition.

ruger#1
09-08-2015, 03:45 PM
Don't ban drones.

Don't shoot them either.

The problem isn't the tool its the people, just look in the news for angry farmers with nothing better to do then shoot $2500 drones out of the sky (and then have to pay for them) - Many drones are put to valid recreational use. Just because you don't appreciate something doesn't mean its inherently stupid.

If someone shot my drone out of the sky, you'd damn well expect some hell to pay.
You never know who is controlling that drone from the other end either.

All we need is better public education.
Maybe better education for the people flying the drones. Put them through safety courses, And have them licensed. It will be no time and they will have a jammer. That will make the drone fall out of the sky. Then when it falls in a farmers field. And then when you come and retrieve it. You can be charged with trespassing to the fullest extent of the law.